Richard Graves (00:01.758) Dr. Alicia Nassar, it is fantastic to have you on this week's podcast. Joining us as you are from Michigan in the United States. Welcome along to the show. Dr. Alicia Naser (00:10.124) Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for having me. Looking forward to talking. Richard Graves (00:14.98) Now, the connection between a mental state in a professional athlete and their physical state is something that we talk about an awful lot in pro sports. But I'm not entirely sure it's always fully understood. So for those of our listeners and viewers on our YouTube channel that aren't familiar with you or your work, just bring us up to speed on your experience, your background, and how you came to be the founder of the NASA Institute for Behavioral Sports. Dr. Alicia Naser (00:25.844) Mm-hmm. Dr. Alicia Naser (00:41.779) Of course. So I started working actually with individuals with neurodevelopmental disabilities. So my PhD is in applied behavior analysis, which is if you think Skinner and Pavlov and that school of thought, that's the training in the background that I come from. Everybody always usually knows, you know, the meat powder and the bell, and then they pair those two. So that's my my school of thought and the training that I have. And I started off by working with individuals with neurodevelopment. disabilities for over 10 years. My brother has autism, so that's how I got into that. but that really gave me a really strong foundation of understanding complex behaviors. And then during it was around 2020, you know, 2021 when the pandemic was going on is kind of when I switched and left the hospital system and the clinical system. And I switched and that's when I made the switch to sport. And it it It wasn't something that was planned. It fell in my lap and you know serendipitously, and I'm really glad that it did. and in a way, all that study, the academic and research and clinical rigor that I had from working in neurodevelopment to disabilities really gave me a strong foundation to then start working in sport. so I made that transition and I started to work with professional athletes on the mental side of the game. Now, the way that that translates from What I was doing before into the mental side of the game is that thoughts are behaviors. You know, when we look at how Skinner studied and spoke about verbal behavior, he expressed that, you know, thoughts are behaviors because they are another physiological response that a a human being is is producing, right? In terms of output. And when we think about athletes and the different physiological responses or the micro behaviors that have to happen for them to compete, In their sport, whatever sport that might be, there's a lot of physiological responses that are happening at once. And so from my standpoint, from my viewpoint, I view thoughts as behaviors. Now, you know, I got to working with professional athletes because I started off by working with NHL players. And so that really it all kind of came full circle of really applying these complex behaviors and and the study of human behavior to then the mental side of the game. now they also Dr. Alicia Naser (03:03.418) We kind of incorporate into my work some work around the the physical side of the game because I can study both the observable and the unobservable. so that's that's my background and kind of how I got to where I am, a very, very short winded way of of how I got here. But it's been a great pleasure. And you know, I'm very competitive myself, and so working with professional athletes has brought out, you know, another level of. competitiveness in me. And like I said, I started off first by working with NHL players. You know, I as you said I'm from born and raised in Michigan. And in this area of the states, there's a lot of, you know, hockey is pretty is really big in Michigan and surrounding states. And then from there now I've expanded and I work with, you know, professional tennis players on the ATP tour and some MLB pitchers and NBA players and and athletes in different professional sporting leagues. Richard Graves (03:59.374) Well, let me assure you, you're not alone when you say you are competitive. think myself included, a lot of us can relate to that. You don't have to be an elite athlete to know you can be competitive when it comes to any sport for that matter of fact. But the brain is a complex area in itself. So let's start by stripping it all back. And when we talk about mental performance in sport, what exactly are we focusing on? Dr. Alicia Naser (04:11.863) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Alicia Naser (04:24.407) So we're talking about how you can execute basic how you can execute, right? So we have mental performance and then there's mental health. And the two go hand in hand, right? It's really difficult to have mental performance without having optimal mental health. And so as a clinician, it's really important to separate those two and first say, is what I'm working with here a mental health topic or a mental health issue, or is it related to mental performance? So a way to kind of think about it is you know, the mental health is how it the the if you're thinking about a car, if we use that analogy, it's it's the health of the the engine and then the mental performance piece is how well you can drive the car. And so it comes down to really about execution. And also in this context, how you can go about applying and executing whatever skill you need to or whatever behavior you need to. under pressure and under high stakes moments. Cause really that's what professional sport or any sport comes down to is being able to execute consistently, I might add, under high stakes and under pressure, especially when there's a lot on the line and in terms of career and points and standings and stats and all of that. Richard Graves (05:37.0) When you put it in that context, many NFL fans will be thinking along the same lines as me in this context because I'm drawn to the Hall of Fame coach, Jimmy Johnson, and that famous sequence in the Dallas Cowboys Championship winning season when he's at preseason training camp and he comes out with this line of, the mind control the body, not the body control the mind. It's a great catchphrase in itself, but actually in all seriousness. Dr. Alicia Naser (05:40.941) Mm-hmm. Richard Graves (06:06.755) How does what's happening to an athlete physically often alter their mental decision making in game? Dr. Alicia Naser (06:14.519) Well, fatigue is a big part of it, right? So I even I think that's the very first thing I think about is how fatigued, how much capacity do you have available? And how much of that is influenced by a level of fatigue. So for example, one of the first things that I recognized when I was working with NHL play or when I work with NHL players is their first three strides on the ice need to be explosive, right? And and that really helps them to have a great shift. And in hockey, you have these short shifts, 30, 40 second shifts. But physically, if you're fatigued, it's hard to even think clearly and to execute clearly and to make really good decisions with the puck or an NFL and make good decision. I think immediately about a quarterback. You know, me physically, if you are fatigued or even if you don't feel if you don't feel clarity within your mind, it can be really difficult to execute in a way it to your highest potential. But in a way that is beneficial and doesn't penalize yourself as as an athlete or the entire team. So physic the physical aspect of the game impacts the mental aspect of the game because you can't have one without the other, right? And I think in sport, we're now I I'm really hopeful because I see a much more talk around the mental side of the game and athlete well-being and athlete mental health. I think that was lagging for a little while, but we're seeing more of it come to light. And I'm also pleasantly surprised by the conversations that I see from strength and conditioning coaches and coaches and assistant and co assistant coaches and coaching staff themselves who see the importance of the mental side of the game because you can't have the physical side without the mental side being in the optimal place. Richard Graves (07:57.838) Talk about physical fatigue, anxiety comes into it, stress in an in-game situation comes to it, mental fatigue, tiredness. The one physical symptom that everybody will be familiar with, heart rate. Where does this fit into the bigger equation? What's the relationship between mental, physical performance when we talk about the heart, the rate it's beating per minute, second in some cases? Dr. Alicia Naser (07:59.848) Mm-hmm. Sure. Dr. Alicia Naser (08:13.249) Your heart rate. Yeah, exactly. Dr. Alicia Naser (08:25.415) Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I love this topic. It's actually what my dissertation was on was the correspondence between self-talk and heart rate. Now, we there's a lot of talk around heart rate in sport, right? And and and there's so much research on heart rate and heart rate variability and and how that influences performance. And from my standpoint, one of the areas that I love the most is understanding how heart rate impacts self-talk. Now, if An athlete, the goal usually is how quickly can you get your heart rate down? Because that maybe perhaps will give you more energy or in terms of output and to be able to do what you need to do. and also just looking at the data among amongst heart rate variability and how that impacts performance. But if your if your heart rate is high, like you're saying, sometimes it can be very very much connected to An an anxious proclivity or tendencies to think in an anxious way is how I would describe it. And that usually goes hand in hand with a high heart rate. And if that's happening, it makes it it makes it difficult to think clearly. But also to have qu what I would quote unquote positive self-talk, right? Usually it can be connected to these feelings and thoughts of anxiousness or worry, and that can be very much connected to a negative self-talk. You know, I don't I don't really like to say positive or negative, but for the sake of this conversation, I will. and so the goal really is to first help an athlete understand, be to become aware of their heart rate and where's your heart rate at, and now what's happening in your mind at the same time. And if you can make that connection, there's actually a level of self-awareness there that in itself can as as a byproduct can serve as sort of the intervention. and by bringing the heart rate down, it Usually we see, I'm I'm sure a lot of strength and conditioning coaches might agree that an athlete might have more energy then for their next rep or the next set. Well then if we bring the heart rate down, then what also happens to their train of thought and their self-talk? Is it more rational? Are they more psychologically flexible? And so that piece is is my area of focus and interest, but also something that you know athletes have been really had exposure to, at least not the clients that I've worked with. Dr. Alicia Naser (10:45.096) And and giving them that exposure of, hey, your heart rate is great, yes, for your recovery and for your output during performance and in the gym. But it also can be really great for the mental side of the game if we so so long as we approach it in that way. Richard Graves (11:00.291) Now this is interesting to me at least because you're pulling on all sorts of threads to come back to one central moment in a game, a round of golf, whatever it might be, because I was looking at your Instagram stories today and there was something that you posted there that resonated with me when you said frustration isn't always a bad thing, in fact quite the opposite. Occasionally frustration with yourself, performance, a moment in the game can actually be turned into a very positive thing. Dr. Alicia Naser (11:04.074) Yeah. Dr. Alicia Naser (11:11.339) Mm-hmm. Richard Graves (11:27.307) and that stopped me in my tracks because any sport I've played, anyone you speak to generally, frustration is something that's got to be bottled up and contained. You lose control if you become frustrated. Expand on that a little bit more please. Dr. Alicia Naser (11:34.124) Yeah, of course. And I actually it's I'm so happy you brought this up because right now we're in hardcourt season, right, for tennis and and it's I I love it. And you see a lot of that, especially tennis and golf, for example, are such fickle sports. So I've it was a great learning lesson for me. I I r remember it vividly. One of the first clients I ever had, you know, as a professional player. And It was a learning lesson for me that this player actually needed to use their frustration. To expect them to not be frustrated at all was actually entirely unrealistic. And it was in frustration is like any human emotion, right? It shows up because generally it's signaling to us that we care about something. And the thing that we care about that we're getting frustrated about is perhaps not going in the direction we want it to. And that can be very helpful data. Because it can signal to us, okay, maybe I need to do something differently. Now the trouble lies when you that frustration turns into a spiral and you can't get yourself out of it. So what I teach my clients is hey, when you s notice that frustration and you see it, we don't need to shy away from it. And and you don't have to completely tank your game because of it. But that feeling can either be very jarring for a player because it's signaling. Hey, I lost my game. I'm not feeling like myself out here. I don't know what's happening. I can't get myself out of it. Or it can signal, okay, I need to, you know, use this intervention, this strategy that Dr. Nasser or who or whomever taught me. And I've actually seen, you know, if we're talking in football and quarters or periods in hockey or, you know, from sets and tennis, whatever the sport is, if you watch how an athlete uses their frustration to their advantage and to their benefit. It can actually fuel you and give you power. It can give you power in the next shot. It can give you focus. It can give you this mentality. It can promote this mentality of like you're not gonna beat me, or I'm not going down like this, or you know, I'm gonna fight till the end for this. So frustration can be very helpful. Like all of our emotions can be very helpful so long as we know what to do with it. And this is where, you know, the mental performance piece is really comes into play is mentally, do you know how to perform? Dr. Alicia Naser (13:54.593) when presented with any of these emotions and when you're experiencing any given emotion and and when you can tell players worked on their mental performance when they are able to take an emotion and to use it to their benefit as opposed to letting it consume them. Richard Graves (14:10.851) And I suppose in tennis the classic example would be John McEnroe quite regularly. In golf, Tyrrell Hatton, still on tour right now, regularly will appear frustrated and yet somehow find he is best golfer in the midst of all that. And I guess, like you say, being aware of it, using breathing techniques is something that can also mould it and help shape any number of athletes in critical moments. Dr. Alicia Naser (14:15.692) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Alicia Naser (14:29.772) Uh-huh. Dr. Alicia Naser (14:37.846) Yeah, exactly. Well, the breathing technique is really helpful going back to our what we were talking about in terms of heart rate and self-talk. But you know, it's really different. It's much easier said than done. We're here talking about it. But then in the moment, yes, exactly. We get caught up in the moment, but also sport moves so fast. It moves so fast. And the the hardest part about this, and you know, I'm you know, at heart first a behavioral scientist. Richard Graves (14:47.939) Well you get caught up in the moment don't you? Dr. Alicia Naser (15:01.692) And a researcher. And so I love data and I love to collect data and I use that data to inform my decision making with my clients. But it's incredibly difficult to ensure that the data is accurate all of the time when it comes to mental performance and heart rate, let's say, because there's no one to one correspondence. and there's also so many other variables, confounding variables and extraneous variables that impact what's going on in the moment. A an athlete's heart rate could be up. For a whole variety of reasons. Maybe they see a certain sign in the stands that a fan is holding and it really, you know, gets them going, or whatever the case might be, or their nutrition, it gets a lot to do with their sleep as well. So there's so many things that impact what's going on internally, which then impacts what's going on externally and how they perform. Richard Graves (15:54.734) What role can technology play in all of this? In both shaping a schedule for an athlete and helping them be more aware in the moment. You mentioned sleep there. I'm wearing a smartwatch now that will tell me whether I've slept well or not during the night. Equally, if you're down at the gym or out exercising, it'll tell you about heart rate. How can we best utilize technology and what technology is out there to complement self-awareness? Dr. Alicia Naser (16:04.352) Mm-hmm. Dr. Alicia Naser (16:23.081) Yeah, well, there's so much, right? There's so many wearables right now that we see athletes wearing and even athletes that are sponsored by certain brands and certain companies in terms of wearables. and I feel like as though they're always constantly evolving and getting better and better, even down to the very minute level of data and and observation and input, which is great. And you know, the athletes that I work with, they have their wearables that they're wearing. It can be very helpful for, for example, in this intervention that I'm discussing that I've developed. And use with my clients for them to observe their heart rate in the moment during self-talk, using whatever wearable it is that they they use. Now at the same time, I'm a big proponent. I myself, I have my Whoop, my Apple Watch, the Aura Wings, they're all the things, right? I I I wear mine again, yes. I wear all well, I'm always constantly doing my own little mini research trials with them and and it's it's kind of obnoxious, truthfully. But in any case, so I have all, you know, mine that I wear as well. Richard Graves (17:09.308) You've got all the gadgets. Dr. Alicia Naser (17:22.569) And at the same time though, I caution athletes to not be so highly dependent on them all of the time. There is some research that shows that you know, sometimes even observing what the data is telling you or what your wearable is telling you can maybe promote some anxiety around sleep. And that can actually interfere with sleep. So there's a fine line and a balance between using the wearable to help you and so you can better better understand yourself as an athlete. But I also think it's incredibly important. For athletes, sometimes, and for example, right now, where we're at, as we film this and and we record this in August, you know, 14th, we're still in the off season for the NHL, let's say, and we have a couple more weeks until trending camp starts. And about a month ago was the time when I said to my athletes, let's not wear your wearable for one week, just one week, so you can first of all just kind of let your mind go and not constantly be checking it. But also because I think it's really important for an athlete to understand their own body. And to know what their body is feeling and have a nice connection and relationship to their body, because that can help them in terms of recovery, but also just knowing what's going on with their body without being highly dependent on a wearable. So technology is incredibly important. It can help us really understand and see things that we can't see, especially for myself. As I was mentioning, there are two types of behaviors. There's internal and external, some that are observable to the public domain and others that are not. And for those ones that are not, technology can be very helpful. But we also just want to keep a balance. Richard Graves (18:51.725) How do we find that balance then? How do we train that relationship within our body? You've said a couple of occasions there are two variables, internal, external. Equally, many athletes and organisations treat physical preparation and mental preparation as two completely separate things. And what's coming through to me from this discussion we're having now is actually their interlinks. Surely it's better if you can find a way to train that relationship within you. Dr. Alicia Naser (18:53.61) No. It's a difficult thing as a few applicable things and preparation and multiple preparation. Yeah. It's a great question. I don't know if I have the answer exactly. I think well, I'm still searching for the answer of you know, how can we find that balance? I think one of the most important things is organizational buy-in and how do you get that from franchises and organizations and teams? I think they have to see the data when they can see in Real time. Hey, look what's what's changing. Okay, let's act as though we take the the mental and the physical and we treat them separately. okay, now you have your data and what does it tell you? Now I've seen other franchises and and other organizations and clubs where they treat them as one, which is ideal. And you can show a pre and post, a baseline versus a post intervention of the benefits that you get from treating them together. sure maybe some have their respective places of this is just a physical and this is just a mental, but that is usually not the case. They're usually linked. So I think Richard Graves (20:18.179) What's the best example you've seen of that? Dr. Alicia Naser (20:21.129) Gosh, there's so many. I don't know if I could give you one, but I would I would say, and also just to not get to to not name any specific organizations or anything, I want to be careful there. but I I have seen where I've presented data because I wanted to prove the point, but also show I didn't want them to just believe me off of you know, without any proof to support it. so there is a specific organiz a club that a football club actually that I'm thinking of, where I did present the data and I said, Hey, you know, this is the data that you had prior to incorporating the mental side of the game and mental performance and thinking about heart rate and self-talk and things like that. And then after that next season, first of all, I presented the data on postseason from the stats of the team and each player individual player. But also throughout the season, what their output, each player's output looked like in the gym and how and how that all improved. so I think you get buy-in, you find that balance by first getting buy-in from like ownership and and front, you know, in front office staff, by showing them the data. I think because we're going in that direction now where and we have been in sport, where everyone is so focused on the science and the data, which I as a scientist love. Cause I was waiting for this day. I'm like, yes, you know, people are talking about science more. So, as a behavioral scientist, I love it, but I also understand that there is a lot of money invested in sport. And with that comes a somewhat of a need for a little bit of certainty. And that's best done by showing the data of pre-intervention, post-intervention. Here's how your team performed when you didn't incorporate the mental side of the game with the physical. And here's how they performed after. Here's the benefits. And it's undeniable, truly. Now, of course, there's maybe some variability in that data, because especially for team sports, you know, you don't have each individual player, you're looking at the team as a whole. But it's it's undeniable that there isn't a team or an organization or club that wouldn't benefit by incorporating both, so long as they have the right professionals in place to make that integration beneficial. Richard Graves (22:31.587) And as much as you love the scientific data coming through, time and time again, and yourself included, no doubt, will say context, context, context is the key to understanding all of it. And of course, on the Science of Sport podcast, we don't just speak to professional athletes and peers within the sporting industry. We have amateur coaches, amateur athletes that listen on a weekly basis as well. What would your advice be to those athletes that don't have access to the sophisticated technology that you have at Dr. Alicia Naser (22:40.302) absolutely. Dr. Alicia Naser (22:51.794) Yeah. Richard Graves (23:00.963) pro-sport organisations don't have access to a psychologist. Well, the simple ways to improve their mental performance and as a result control their physiological response. Dr. Alicia Naser (23:12.02) Well, you know, s in some ways I think they might be a little better off sometimes because things are not as complex and they usually stick to the foundations and that's really all you need sometimes. So I think you know, the first thing is is I put a lot of content out there, you know, free on Instagram and I have a newsletter behavior of sport, and there's plenty of other professionals who are putting out really great content such as yourself on the science for sport. So I think one of the things that any athlete, doesn't matter the level or or coaches, is to find the right professionals who are putting out content that is educational and has some science and backing to it because there's a lot out there right and so you kind of want to filter out like what's really going to support me here. That can be really helpful. Another thing too is one little strategy that can be helpful is is first of all just writing things down. I think we take for granted the the benefit of simply writing something down because when you write things down What you're doing is getting it out of your head, which feels like an intangible, and you're putting it out in front of you. All of the athletes that I work with, you know, we've they write a lot. I have them write a lot. And it's funny because they're like, you know, I didn't go to school for a reason. I just skipped school to go write to professional store for a reason. I'm like, I don't care, we're gonna write. but it can be helpful to think about, let's say, for example, mental performance. If you write down all of like some of the thoughts, just make a bullet pointed list. Of some of the thoughts that you feel like are barriers. So if I ask, you know, any athlete at any level, what are some barriers that you think get in your way during a game or practice, or for coaches as well? And you make a bullet pointed list of these are the barriers. I'm hard on myself. When I make a mistake, it's really hard for me to recover. I keep thinking about the mistake. Or for coaches, it's really difficult for me to get the whole team to be on the same page. They're not communicating, whatever it might be. And just address one by one at a time. And by doing that, you kind of pave yourself an your own blueprint of a roadmap of what to tackle first. And sometimes as a byproduct, by just addressing one element, one barrier, you can as a by product then address it another works itself out. but yeah, I think sometimes at lower levels of sport, we actually can learn the most from them. So I I think it's Dr. Alicia Naser (25:32.65) You know, something to constantly keep in mind. I do for myself as well. Richard Graves (25:36.225) Yeah, and as you've highlighted there sometimes, keeping it simple is the best way forward. You mentioned as well there that our listeners can get snippets of information from you across your social media channels. Where might they find you across Instagram, LinkedIn and so on? Dr. Alicia Naser (25:40.073) Yeah. Dr. Alicia Naser (25:53.268) So my Instagram is Dr. Alicia Nasser. and my I have a newsletter, Behavior of Sport. I also have a c a podcast, Behavior of Sports. everything is linked in my Instagram and my bio, everything is linked there. But if you just Google or search behavior of sport newsletter or podcast, that will come up as well. Richard Graves (26:13.089) Well, Dr Alicia Nasser, this has been an absolute pleasure and certainly given me plenty of foods for thought ahead of a weekend when I promise you I'll be playing golf and at some point the frustration will be coming in and I'll tell everybody it's a positive. Dr. Alicia Naser (26:22.026) How's your golf game? Dr. Alicia Naser (26:27.921) no goodness. How's your golf game? Did you play a good round of golf? Richard Graves (26:30.339) It's going alright at the moment. I'm down to single figures so it's steady away but it can have moments when it regresses shall we say. Dr. Alicia Naser (26:33.438) Yeah. nice. Okay. Dr. Alicia Naser (26:40.02) Well, golf is fickle. It is so fickle, yes, of course. Richard Graves (26:44.023) Listen, thanks very much for your time. It's been a pleasure and wish you all the best going forward. Dr. Alicia Naser (26:48.094) Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.