Episode 450
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[00:00:00] JFK: For the eyes of the world now look into space, to the moon 

[00:00:05] JFK: and to the planets beyond. 

[00:00:08] John Mulnix: This is the Space Shot, episode 450, the Lunar Era, part four After Apollo. I'm John Mulnix. First off, happy New Year. It wasn't exactly how I was expecting to spend the new year, but our family caught COVID right before Christmas.

[00:00:26] John Mulnix: So this episode has taken a little bit of a backseat to [00:00:30] getting better, but I'm glad to be here with you today to kick off 2026 with a new episode, which happens to be episode 450. When I started the podcast in 2017, I had no clue I'd be doing this still nearly a decade later, but it's been super fun and it's opened up a ton of opportunities for me.

[00:00:50] John Mulnix: Here's to 2026 and the next 50 episodes. Before we get to part four, I've got a quick programming note. I'm planning on recording [00:01:00] part five, which is titled Back to Stay with Casey Dreier from The Planetary Society later this month. There's been a ton going on in the space world that I think we need to cover, and it's one of the reasons that I've postponed part five for so long, and also because life happens.

[00:01:17] John Mulnix: In the last few weeks, uh, Jared Isaacman was confirmed as the 15th NASA administrator. Really excited about that. Um, Artemis two could be launching as soon as the next five weeks or so. As of recording this on [00:01:30] January 1st, 2026, uh, Tory Bruno also left the United Launch Alliance for a role at Blue Origin. Um, there's some companies going public.

[00:01:40] John Mulnix: There's a ton going on. Um, 2026 is shaping up to be a wild year. Now let's get to part four of the lunar era for my conversation with Michelle Hanlon and Jim Remar.

[00:01:59] John Mulnix: When we [00:02:00] visited the moon during the Apollo program, we left behind physical proof of the exploration of this world. The descent stages from lunar modules lags, which may not be upright anymore, mementos, scientific experiments and equipment of various kinds. These early sites are an important part of human history as we'll hear from Michelle and Jim.

[00:02:23] John Mulnix: But as we go back to the moon in the coming decade, more people and more countries will visit this world. [00:02:30] Now that we're going back to stay, we're gonna start running into questions that aren't just the technical. Can we get to the moon? We proved that we can do it. Now we have to start asking questions that get to cultural, legal, and moral aspects that weren't necessarily a consideration during the Apollo program.

[00:02:51] John Mulnix: What do we do with these historical sites where humans took our first steps off Earth? In this episode, you're gonna hear from two of the people that are [00:03:00] tackling some of these big questions. Michelle Hanlon is a space law expert and co-founder of For All Moon Kind. She's focused on protecting heritage sites on the moon and building norms before we go back.

[00:03:13] John Mulnix: And Jim Remar is the CEO of the Cosmosphere, and he's one of the people that makes sure the artifacts that are on earth are preserved for future generations. And how the public stays connected to the reality of what happened during these missions. We're [00:03:30] gonna start with Michelle on this episode because her framing of one of the questions really gets right to the point.

[00:03:36] John Mulnix: What happens if somebody just knocks something over? 

[00:03:41] Michelle Hanlon: What is the level of damages? What is the liability if someone just comes over and knocks over, you know, the lamb at tranquility base or erases buzz alters. Famous boot print. There is nothing, there's no, there's no damages that can apply these artifacts, these heritage [00:04:00] sites, these incredible moments of human history, human achievement are basically completely unprotected and at the, at the whim and of, of not only human intervention, but robotic intervention and um, even natural intervention.

[00:04:17] John Mulnix: We treat a lot of the Apollo sites as if they're sacred, but legally they're basically unprotected, and that's where Michelle's and for all moon kinds work begins. 

[00:04:29] Michelle Hanlon: Hey John, it's [00:04:30] Michelle Hanlon. I'm the Executive Director of the Center for Air and Space Law here at the University of Mississippi. I am also the co-founder of, uh, an organization called For All Mankind, which is the only organization in the world focused on protecting cultural heritage in outer space.

[00:04:44] Michelle Hanlon: We are honored to be a permanent observer to United Nations Committee on the peaceful uses of outer space. And so since 2018, we've literally been on the sidelines watching. The tremendous evolution of space law and trying to sort of help it along a little bit, if [00:05:00] you will. My research and the work I do is really focused on bridging the gap for humanity between an, an earth-based, solely earth-based species to a multi-planetary species.

[00:05:12] Michelle Hanlon: That may sound like a lot of sci-fi, but you know what? We have to start somewhere, and that's what we're doing. There's no law or regulation or even a non-binding agreement to protect or preserve or conserve or even recognize that we have cultural heritage on [00:05:30] the moon, namely the Apollo lunar landing sites, but also, um, a bunch of Luna sites from the former Soviet Union and some sites from China, chaga flights.

[00:05:39] Michelle Hanlon: Um, these are, these are tremendous milestones in human history and technology, and yet we don't even recognize. We have here on Earth, we have the UNESCO World Heritage Convention. Um, and you'll, you'll see all the time, oh, this, this is a World Heritage Convention, the pyramids of Egypt, Stonehenge, um, all of these things that are recognized as being technological achievements, [00:06:00] and yet we don't have that for.

[00:06:02] Michelle Hanlon: Space or anything in space. Now people will say, well, those are US objects. Uh, and the, and the law says there is an outer space treaty, which says if you send an object into space, you always have jurisdiction and control over it. And that's great. Um, and there also is a law that says, you know, if somebody does damage.

[00:06:20] Michelle Hanlon: To your object in space, they're gonna be liable for that damage. But you know what people don't ask themselves is what is the level of damages? What is the [00:06:30] liability? If someone just comes over and knocks over, you know, the lamb at Tranquility Base or Erases Buzz Aldrin's famous boot print. There is nothing.

[00:06:40] Michelle Hanlon: There's no, there's no damages that can apply these artifacts, these heritage sites, these incredible moments. Of human history, human achievement are basically completely unprotected and at the, at the whim and of not only human intervention, but robotic intervention [00:07:00] and even natural intervention 

[00:07:02] John Mulnix: on earth, we have traditions for protecting heritage sites off the earth.

[00:07:08] John Mulnix: There's some historical sites, but not the shared rules. 

[00:07:13] Michelle Hanlon: When I started this organization with my husband, it was based on a gut reaction, right? Well, yes, we ought to protect it. You know, we protect the Liberty Bell, right? We know where Plymouth Rock is. Um, of course, we have to protect the first blueprint, and it was a sort of a, a knee jerk and our.

[00:07:29] Michelle Hanlon: [00:07:30] Patriotic, you know, uh, it, the organization came to be because I, I, uh, heard a pressor from, um, Jan Vernor, who was then the head of the European Space Agency. He was in China and he was at a press conference and he said, oh, China, you must join us to go back to the moon if only to take down those American flags.

[00:07:50] Michelle Hanlon: And that was the genesis of, for all mankind. 'cause I was like, what? Wait a minute, we can't take down that flag. And then I realized, well, yeah, you can if it's still standing. But, um, and so, [00:08:00] so originally it was knee jerk and it, and it did, I'll be honest. Take me a, a little bit of time to sort of think through, okay.

[00:08:05] Michelle Hanlon: What. What is the basis of that knee jerk? And it's really fundamental. So, you know, when you talk to people from nasa, they will very proudly tell you, you know, Apollo is the 400,000 Americans worked on it. And it's just, you know, it's, it's, it's in our blood and the US taxpayer. But it is so, so much more than that.

[00:08:25] Michelle Hanlon: I want you to think back, you know, think back to our, our ancient history. [00:08:30] Somebody 3 million years ago decided, you know what, I'm gonna stand up on two feet. I'm gonna walk on two feet instead of four. And what happened? And that freed up our hands. So one of our common ancestors stood up, freed up our hands so we could make tools so we could carry things and so we could travel farther, right?

[00:08:49] Michelle Hanlon: We don't get to the moon unless somebody stands up on two feet and, and releases all of that potential for us. We don't get to the moon without somebody in the Congo scratching on a, on [00:09:00] a baboon bone and showing rudimentary uh, math. We don't get to the moon without math. We don't get to the moon without glass.

[00:09:07] Michelle Hanlon: Somebody in Mesopotamia, this always blows me away, like who would look at sand and say, wow, if I heat that up really high, it turns into this really pretty translucent thing. So if we don't get to the moon without the entirety of our human history, that blueprint, sure that the American taxpayer paid for it.

[00:09:24] Michelle Hanlon: But we didn't get there without Copernicus, without dreamers and astronomers from South America, from [00:09:30] Asia, we don't get to the moon without the entirety of human history, the human cultures across the globe. So that boot print. That we see that it's Buzz Aldrin's blueprint. I guess that that famous picture that is the culmination of centuries, millennia of human evolution.

[00:09:49] Michelle Hanlon: I mean, wow, that is, that is, there's nothing more uniting than that. Not only was this sort of a unifying centering of all of our [00:10:00] history into one boot print, but more people around the world watched that, that was the most watched event in human history till that time. And I think it's only been eclipsed by, I think, Charles and Diana's wedding, maybe a, a Taylor Swift concert now, but, but for.

[00:10:16] Michelle Hanlon: But that was, I mean, this was a unifying event and that, you know, people understood, people still understand that this is not an American achievement. This is a human achievement. [00:10:30] 

[00:10:30] John Mulnix: And I like how Michelle framed that. It was a knee jerk reaction initially, but it forced her to ask some bigger questions.

[00:10:37] John Mulnix: What does Apollo mean and who does it belong to? The Apollo missions were incredible achievements. We need to ask these questions because they're important. How can we protect these sites in a place where nobody can actually claim territory? 

[00:10:54] Michelle Hanlon: And so when I go, you ask about how far have we come. So I started going to the United Nations Committee [00:11:00] on the peaceful uses of outer space.

[00:11:01] Michelle Hanlon: And yes, there's actually a committee that has been meeting since 1961 that talks just about how we keep the peace in space. And so we started going there in 2018 and we introduced the idea of protecting cultural heritage in space. And I wanna be, I do also wanna be very clear, this was not, I'm not the only person in the world who thought of this.

[00:11:22] Michelle Hanlon: There was a book written in 2000 by a group of archeologists and anthropologists who sort of raised this, but they, they just sort of [00:11:30] said, well, you know, we should, we should protect. And they wrote the book and they left it at that. So I picked up that ball and I decided, you know what? I'm an, I'm a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

[00:11:39] Michelle Hanlon: My job is to close deals. I'm gonna close this deal, and so it's taken me a little bit longer than I thought, but I introduced it at the United Nations and not one country, not China, not Cuba, not Iran, not Russia, not one country. Turned around and looked at me and said, that is a terrible idea. [00:12:00] Everybody knows it's a good idea, but nobody knows how to implement it because we have a treaty article two of the treaty says you cannot claim territory in outer space by sovereignty, by use, or by any other means.

[00:12:15] Michelle Hanlon: Okay? So obviously if the United States were to say, Hey, we wanna protect this. You're claiming territory that's by any other means. You're saying, well, you know, this is, I have this right to protect and we don't under the outer space treaty. And [00:12:30] that's something that's very important as we think about expanding, like how we're going to figure that part out.

[00:12:35] Michelle Hanlon: And so everybody knows that it's the right thing to do to protect, but everyone's afraid. To start going down that path of, well, what does it mean? Does that mean we're claiming territory? Fundamental preceptive space law is freedom of expiration and use free access to all areas of all celestial bodies.

[00:12:55] Michelle Hanlon: Trying to protect these sites violates international law. [00:13:00] So we need new law, and that's never easy. 

[00:13:03] John Mulnix: So law and space law moves slowly. And the frustrating part is that everyone can agree that something is valuable, but there's still not necessarily an easy or a quick path to protect something or to create a law to protect something.

[00:13:21] Michelle Hanlon: Abso. Absolutely. And, and just to, to point out, you know, the, we found these footprints in Oli, Tanzania, right? Which we think are the first [00:13:30] upright footprints made 3 million years ago. We didn't discover them until 1970. Why should we put it upon the next generation to have to go back to the moon and dig around to see where we first landed on it?

[00:13:41] Michelle Hanlon: Why don't we protect it? 

[00:13:43] John Mulnix: I really like Michelle's argument here. Why should future generations have to rediscover something that we already know matters? It's one of the big reasons I love history. We need to study history so we can learn from these past experiences. 

[00:13:59] Michelle Hanlon: And [00:14:00] this is the question, well, we have Firefly up there.

[00:14:02] Michelle Hanlon: I think their, their, um, uh, their rover is, has, uh, shut down. But um, that is the question. So we do, we have this concept, um, it's really an economic concept called a global commons. And so you will hear people say all the time, it's a global commons, you know, well, we're worried about the tragedy of the commons.

[00:14:19] Michelle Hanlon: Let's protect. The Commons, you know, global Commons does not have a, a legal definition. There's no, there's no really, it just, you know, okay. It's, it's something that everybody has [00:14:30] access to and nobody can own. And so when the, um, when the negotiators were putting together the outer space Treaty. They didn't use so that they didn't use the words common heritage of humankind.

[00:14:42] Michelle Hanlon: That's the word it that we see in the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea. Uh, we see it in the Antarctic Convention. The Outer Space Treaty chose the words province of all humankind. Now, what is the difference? Uh, I don't know. I couldn't tell you. Nobody can tell you. I can give you a lot of theories. I can [00:15:00] say that it's definitely something less than that.

[00:15:02] Michelle Hanlon: Common heritage, and this is really important, John, because the common heritage. Concept is that nobody can own property. Nobody can claim territory anywhere. Everything has to be sort of universal for the benefit of all. That's a very difficult way to live and innovate. You know, if, if, if you're gonna send me to Mars and I build a house on Mars, I wanna be able to exclude you from coming into my house, maybe when I'm going to the bathroom or taking [00:15:30] a shower, at the very, very least, right?

[00:15:33] Michelle Hanlon: We have globalists who say, no. Everything in space must be shared. Must be a benefit, must benefit for all humankind. We have to share the spoils. Well, you know what? That doesn't really work. And people will say to you, you know, indigenous communities, they don't have property. And look, they live so well at one with, you know, nature.

[00:15:53] Michelle Hanlon: Well, first of all, don't lump all of the indigenous communities into one group because they're all very, very different [00:16:00] culturally. And some, there are some indigenous communities that are one with nature. Sure. But there are other indigenous communities that fought really hard for their property rights.

[00:16:10] Michelle Hanlon: They didn't call it that. Um, and especially here in the, uh, United States, indigenous communities feel very keenly that the United States government took their property when they took their land. It's not, you took something that I was, you know, uh, steward shipping over. No, the United States government [00:16:30] took their land slaves.

[00:16:31] Michelle Hanlon: I live in Mississippi, uh, the, the, um, the descendants of slaves. You know what they tell me? What is the most important thing to them right now? The most important thing is that piece of land that they own because they were not allowed to own property as slaves. And so there's nothing they are more proud of than to own property.

[00:16:50] Michelle Hanlon: How can we take that away? The UN Declaration of Human Rights Article 17 Everywhere. Person has the right to own property. So [00:17:00] international law applies to space under Article three of the Outer Space Treaty. And so we cannot ignore that. We cannot ignore human rights just because we're in space. So what is the character of Outer Space?

[00:17:12] Michelle Hanlon: Well, I can tell you legally the character of Outer Space doesn't exist. We have a concept that the exploration and use of space are the of all humankind.

[00:17:26] Michelle Hanlon: There shall be freedom of access to all areas of celestial bodies, [00:17:30] and that's all we know and how we interpret that, how we build that concept into something that will support commercial innovation and private innovation as well as state exploration is the key for our generation right now. 

[00:17:47] John Mulnix: I asked Michelle what she would do if she could recommend one thing that could be written into law or be part of a legal framework for the moon.

[00:17:55] John Mulnix: Here's what she had to say. 

[00:17:57] Michelle Hanlon: I've never been to space. I have no idea what [00:18:00] it's like to live without oxygen, uh, plentiful around me. I don't know what it should look like. I, I can tell you what I would like to see. I can tell you the baby steps, the foundational things I would like to see. Um, and that, you know, no surprise here.

[00:18:15] Michelle Hanlon: I think any responsible, sustainable legal framework for humans and their robots that live in space has got to start. Something like conservation with something like preservation. So when we look at the [00:18:30] heritage sites, it comes right back down to our history. When we look at those sites, like I said, not one country has said, oh good.

[00:18:37] Michelle Hanlon: No, we want a trash Apollo. We don't care. Everybody recognizes that. So why don't we come together and create. Well, let's call them manage access protocols is what we call them at for mankind and say, look, these are, these are areas that, um, under the, uh, auspices of the Outer Space Treaty, we're gonna protect because we understand their universal value, [00:19:00] because we understand the importance of conservation.

[00:19:02] Michelle Hanlon: And that's very different from starting from a point of, oh, you know, keep out. Uh, this is mine. No. Keep out because this belongs to all of us. And I'm gonna exploit this. No, I'm gonna preserve this. And then use that as a baseline to start building into the commercial, uh, economy We wanna see grow both in um, orbit and on the moon and beyond.

[00:19:28] Michelle Hanlon: There are definitely, [00:19:30] you know, uh, there are heritage sites on the moon. There are sites on the moon that are of particular scientific interest. There are sites on the moon that are of particular commercial interest. Um, a lot of astronomers want to leave the far side of the moon, um, open just for astronomy because you're not, you don't have the, you're not gonna get hit by the radio interference from Earth, right.

[00:19:49] Michelle Hanlon: It's a tremendous opportunity for astronomers. So there's a lot, and, and you're right, the Navajo. Um, tribe most famously, you know, objected to Apollo, um, objected to [00:20:00] the, uh, astrobotic attempt to put human remains on the moon. Uh, because, uh, in their culture, the moon is sacred. Uh, of course the pushback is, well, you know, they can't have the Navajo culture dictate everything that goes on the moon.

[00:20:15] Michelle Hanlon: And I think Celest is. Which is the company that put these cremains together said, you know, it's a violation of the US Constitution, um, because you're imposing your religion on us. Look, the, the, there's not an easy answer. Um, I, I, for [00:20:30] one, am appalled by the fact that we're just sending stuff to the moon because we can, you know, like to me, the moon should be treated like a national park or a universal park, right?

[00:20:41] Michelle Hanlon: You, you don't just go to Yellowstone and dump a picture of your. You know, and take your high school yearbook and leave it by the geyser. Right? Old faithful, no, you can't do that. 'cause if everybody did that, it would ruin it. Why are we allowing that to happen on the moon? So, okay. I'm not the one who should be making [00:21:00] those decisions.

[00:21:01] Michelle Hanlon: God knows some person sitting at the FAA shouldn't be making those decisions. We need to have conversations about this. Discussions about this one answer that has been proposed to me, which I'm. I'm not against is, okay, let's just pick out one area of the moon and, and that's just where you send your junk, right?

[00:21:21] Michelle Hanlon: Or you know, you call it art. I'll call it junk. What we need, and this is why, you know, I'm thrilled to be here with you. [00:21:30] Today and thrilled that you're putting this together, we need to draw many, many, many more people into the conversation right now. You know, when I go to a space law conference, I see the exact same people.

[00:21:44] Michelle Hanlon: They know exactly what I'm gonna say. I know exactly what they're gonna say. You know, we need more people in this conversation. And that that's been, you know, my 2025 resolution was, I am gonna do more non-space things than space things. 

[00:21:59] John Mulnix: So [00:22:00] we've talked about some of the opportunities and challenges for lunar site preservation.

[00:22:05] John Mulnix: Let's bring it back to earth for a moment and chat with the cosmos sphere, CEO, Jim Remar. Jim gave me a brief tour of the newly completed exhibits at the Cosmosphere last fall. The audio you're about to hear was recorded when we were walking through the Cosmosphere. Looking at many artifacts that haven't been on public display for decades, I know I've said this more times than I can count, but if you haven't made it to the [00:22:30] Cosmo sphere, you should make a point to visit in 2026.

[00:22:35] John Mulnix: But before we shift gears to speak with Jim, there's a story in the news right now about NASA closing its largest technical library. I'll link to the full article in the show notes. The savings for this closure are relatively small, about $10 million a year, plus around 68 million or so. I think in deferred maintenance that needs to be done on the building itself.

[00:22:56] John Mulnix: But the implications for closing a library like this are [00:23:00] much bigger. One scientist quoted in the article describes using obscure archival material to interpret Apollo era experiment data work that you simply can't do if those original sources vanish. Older material that hasn't been converted to a digital format.

[00:23:18] John Mulnix: Is at risk of being lost. When Jim talks about how hard it was to track down original documentation for the F1 engines, the massive engines that powered the first stage of the [00:23:30] Saturn five, this is what he's talking about. History doesn't vanish all at once. It can erode over time through a myriad of decisions that add up to something bigger than any one person can imagine when they happen.

[00:23:45] John Mulnix: When we kicked off our tour of the Cosmosphere, I asked Jim what most people notice about Odyssey, the Apollo 13 command module when they visit the museum. 

[00:23:56] Jim Remar: Well, I, I, I think with [00:24:00] Odyssey specifically, um, it, it's a story of perseverance, of, of teamwork. A mentality of we're, we're not going to fail, and. I think that's important and, and maybe often lost, uh, today.

[00:24:20] Jim Remar: Um, we're, we're so polarized now and with Odyssey, really the, the world almost [00:24:30] collectively came together to, to do anything they could to help the United States figure out how to, how to get the spacecraft and the three astronauts back. You know, I, I think. When people see it for the first time, uh, they're, they're blown away by the fact that three astronauts were inside of that spacecraft, uh, for an extended period of time.

[00:24:58] Jim Remar: And [00:25:00] the small, intimate nature of odyssey, uh, surprises most probably one, one of my favorite pieces of, of which there, there are many. Objects that haven't been on display for 30 years. Probably my favorite piece, uh, that is now on display is the TLI checklist from Apollo eight. Uh, so the very first time [00:25:30] that humans ever went to the moon in, in, uh, 1968, uh, that checklist and that procedure.

[00:25:37] Jim Remar: Was used for the first time. And knowing that, that's a pretty awesome object, uh, to, to share with the public. Right. Over this way, many of the, the objects, you know, ha haven't been on display. So, you know, the, the lunar tools and, and the forward heat shield from Apollo 17 

[00:25:57] John Mulnix: when we were talking about technological changes over [00:26:00] the course of the space race.

[00:26:01] John Mulnix: Here's what Jim had to say about that. 

[00:26:04] Jim Remar: It, it is because we, we went. From something extremely primitive to, you know, technological advances in a very short order. Um, but what I, I think surprises me is the fact that, again, technology from the time. We achieved the first lunar landing to today has advanced [00:26:30] significantly in much more so, but we haven't been back to the moon since 72.

[00:26:34] Jim Remar: Um, so I, I, you know, I, I think, I think that surprises a lot of people. Um, because if you, if you look at how technology evolved from first right flight to the lunar landing, and then from the lunar landing to today, the fact that we haven't been. Out of Leo, uh, is is pretty shocking to be honest with you.[00:27:00] 

[00:27:00] Jim Remar: Well, I, I think it's done in, in two ways. One, obviously is through the, the preservation and exhibition of, of the objects. Uh, from that, from that period and allowing the public to appreciate. What happened during that, that time or that era. The other is, is through our education programs themselves, uh, whether it's field trips, uh, our camp programs in the summer, uh, outreaches, we're [00:27:30] talking about a story that is inspiring.

[00:27:35] Jim Remar: And hopefully ignites a spark in a student. Uh, it teaches, teaches, you know, students what can happen if you put your mind to it and set some goals. The preservation of these objects, I hope, shows a, that this was real and, and it happened, [00:28:00] but also allows. Students and adults alike to appreciate where we were and where we're going.

[00:28:09] Jim Remar: Without the objects, it's hard to understand where we were, you know, in the sixties and seventies and what we're going to do and where we're gonna go today. There's, there's obviously been a natural progression and I don't know if you can truly appreciate that without seeing the past or understanding the past.

[00:28:29] John Mulnix: One of my favorite [00:28:30] questions that I asked Jim was how he approaches storytelling now that he's the CEO versus when he was the curator at the Cosmosphere. 

[00:28:40] Jim Remar: I, I think for me, you know, when, when, when I was curator, it was more important to tell the story of the space race and, and make sure that the, the public could understand and appreciate.

[00:28:56] Jim Remar: What happened while telling the story of the [00:29:00] space race is, is still incredibly important and valuable. I want to provide the opportunity for adults and, and, and kids alike to to be inspired. And hopefully in kids to, to have a spark ignited, um, for them to, to hopefully find a passion. Uh, and so, you know, that, that, that's, that's probably a, a different way of looking at it from when I was curator, um, back in the day.[00:29:30] 

[00:29:30] Jim Remar: 'cause then it was more about, okay, we've got this artifact related to this mission that tells this story. Um, and then it's just kind of a natural chronological progression. Whereas while the progression, the chronological progression is important, I want somebody to see something be like, wow, that is really inspirational.

[00:29:51] Jim Remar: And I could do that. I'm of the mindset that. You know, the, and I, I use Apollo as the analogy. [00:30:00] The three individuals who sat on top of the Saturn five are the most well known and recognized. They, they were the rock stars of the era, but as you know, it took tens of thousands. Of individuals on the ground in a variety of capacities to support and, and allow that mission to be successful.

[00:30:19] Jim Remar: And without those individuals, those three and those three on the top aren't known or fail. And I want students to understand that, you know, you don't [00:30:30] have to be one of the three sitting on top of the rocket to, to have an impact. You can, you know. If you wanna go run a CNC router or, you know, weld or fabricate or whatever, that's still really important in the scheme of the, the totality of the, of the mission or the objective.

[00:30:48] John Mulnix: And as Jim said, the astronauts were really just the most visible part of the space program. The number of people that were involved in creating the rockets, creating the programs, the software that got us to [00:31:00] the moon is just staggering. One of the other things we spoke about are some of the challenges of doing preservation and conservation, especially when some of those primary documents are lost forever.

[00:31:13] Jim Remar: Yeah. 38 years. Right. Um, you know, those two pieces back there from Saturn five, those were on the bottom of the Atlantic for over 40 years. Um, both those pieces were, were from, uh, F1 engines. I, I think we were [00:31:30] probably closer. To losing some of these objects that, that most people realize or recognize. Um, and, and the reason I say that is because the mentality at the time was, we're done.

[00:31:44] Jim Remar: Let's go onto the next mission. What happened in the past isn't necessarily relevant or important anymore. Uh, and one of the ways that that came to light for me was that, you know, as we're [00:32:00] sitting here looking at these two pieces that were recovered from the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, when, when we were working prior to Bezos Expeditions, bringing these to the cosmos sphere for conservation, I was trying to find original.

[00:32:17] Jim Remar: Archives specific to the F ones, and almost every center, um, person I contacted said they either were trashed or, you know, some [00:32:30] engineer walked off with them and they're sitting in somebody's attic somewhere. And so it was incredibly difficult to find anything of, of an original, um, document pertaining to the fons in existence.

[00:32:44] Jim Remar: Fortunately, we have a division called Space Works, and since the eighties, space Works has worked to preserve artifacts both for Cosmo sphere's use as [00:33:00] well as others, and because of the knowledge and understanding that space works, in particular, the Cosmos sphere has played. A pretty significant role in the preservation.

[00:33:15] Jim Remar: Um, you know, just again, looking at the two pieces from the F1, there was several tons of hardware that was recovered from the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean and, and brought back, um, just behind it, Apollo 13, we did all the, [00:33:30] the reintegration of the, the hardware. You mentioned Liberty Bell. Uh. Gemini 10, uh, countless v twos.

[00:33:38] Jim Remar: I, I mean, I, we could do a whole segment on Space Works and What Space Works has done, but they're one of the leaders in the industry of, of artifact restoration and preservation, and a big part of why many of these objects are still available for public appreciation. There, there [00:34:00] was tremendous support in the sixties to achieve the, the objective that President Kennedy had set of, of being the first to, to land on the moon before the end of the decade.

[00:34:15] Jim Remar: And so both the public as well as political leaders of the time supported that. And we were also. As a, a country competing against what who had at that time was the [00:34:30] enemy of the United States. Once Apollo 11 happened, I think the public's appetite for further supporting Apollo began to wane, as did that of, of Congress.

[00:34:44] Jim Remar: And as, as we sit here today, I think there is. Excitement that surrounds what is happening and mostly with what SpaceX is doing to some degree Blue Origin. Uh, and then hopefully, uh, uh, NASA [00:35:00] with, with Artemis too. Um, I, I don't, I don't think there is overwhelming support for it. I would say from a public perspective, there's probably less support for it today than there was during the Appell program.

[00:35:14] Jim Remar: And then when you think politically, it doesn't really matter what side of the aisle you. You, you are from. But, um, the current administration is, is cutting NASA's budget or proposing to cut NASA's budget, um, to, to a level that [00:35:30] we haven't seen in, in 40, 40 years. And this goes back to, um, the level of funding that NASA had back in, in 60 61.

[00:35:40] Jim Remar: Um. So it's, it's pretty difficult to achieve objectives that NASA and, and we have set out when the funding is, is being significantly reduced. I think from that perspective, um, there isn't the support politically. That there needs to be and [00:36:00] there isn't support publicly. Um, again, while NASA's cool and, and like you said, you see, um, merchandise and things like that, that it, it's to, to me it's more about the nostalgia of, of where we were and less about where we're going.

[00:36:19] Jim Remar: E even even to the point where, as part of the reduction of, of funding for nasa. The proposal is, is to cut any [00:36:30] funding related to, uh, steam or stem, uh, which I think is a huge mistake because how do you get the future generations excited about those types of, uh, activities, disciplines, career pathways when you're reducing funding to support it?

[00:36:49] John Mulnix: And as we prepare to go back to the moon, the importance of these STEAM programs becomes even more apparent. I've been lucky enough to participate in a NASA design challenge, and I can tell you how [00:37:00] impactful it was on me and to the other students that took part in the challenge. Developing these future workforces is absolutely crucial, just as it is to develop the political consensus about why it's important to go back to the moon.

[00:37:15] Jim Remar: I think politically. Socially, it shows us how goals and objectives can be achieved if we're working collectively together as one. Um, [00:37:30] instead of the the divisive nature of, of today, uh, again, it doesn't matter whether you were from a red state or a blue state. Everybody had a singular objective and did everything they could to, to make that possible.

[00:37:46] Jim Remar: Um. The other is, uh, the, from a technological perspective, the advent of the Apollo program helped spur [00:38:00] advances in technology and without Apollo program, maybe something didn't. Get developed as quickly or rapidly or at all. Um, and so I think WW we lose sight of the fact that NASA and the space program allow this country to develop technology at a quicker pace than we would otherwise be able to.

[00:38:28] Jim Remar: I fear that [00:38:30] we as a society, forget how important. The space program is to the development of technology that, that we use every day. And take for granted the, uh, fire resistant or retardant suit that, that your first responder wears when they're going to fight a fire was developed through the space program.

[00:38:52] Jim Remar: Um. You know, a lot of medical equipment medicine developed through the space program. [00:39:00] Um, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of pieces of, of advances that we use every day that came straight from the space program. You know, obviously the Artemis two mission is important, but for me, um, to say, Hey, we're back.

[00:39:16] Jim Remar: We, we've gotta achieve a lunar landing. It's one thing to send humans around. The moon, it's completely different to land them on the moon. And so we, we have to get [00:39:30] to that point where we have the, the technology and the spacecraft to, to safely achieve that objective. Um, and once we do that, then I think we collectively could say, okay, you know, we're back as a, as a space fairing exploring country.

[00:39:47] Jim Remar: I hope when we do ultimately make it back to the moon, it's, it's done with, with a little bit of thought given to preservation and opportunities to continue to [00:40:00] tell that story. Because if we, you know, we're, we're sitting in a museum that that tells. A story of the space race. And it's because of the artifacts.

[00:40:10] Jim Remar: And the artifacts are what people wanna see and what resonate and what hopefully inspire, um, and without those objects for the public to, to see and appreciate. I think we lose that when, when we looked at or we began planning to redo the museum. [00:40:30] This, this was one exhibit that we were like, you know what, how it was done.

[00:40:35] Jim Remar: Was pretty darn good. Yeah. And so let's, let's not change it. And this exhibit does a really good job of, of showing the development of photography equipment, starting out with, uh, the little Minolta that was used, um, you know, during the, the early days, uh, of, of Mercury up through Gemini. And then, uh, ultimately Apollo and.[00:41:00] 

[00:41:00] Jim Remar: Uh, these, these cameras are what allowed the, the astronauts to capture, uh, the images. Um, that we now know and appreciate and, and help us to, to a very small extent understand what it was like to to to be on the moon again. Some of the most iconic images known to humans were taken, taken with these types of [00:41:30] cameras, um, that we now appreciate and probably some degree take for granted.

[00:41:36] John Mulnix: And that's a perfect spot to jump back into our conversation with Michelle. So Jim was speaking about preservation in the most literal sense, making sure we have the hardware, documents, cameras, and checklists of those missions. Michelle is asking a parallel question, what are we preserving in terms of norms?

[00:41:56] John Mulnix: What do we expect people to do or not do [00:42:00] when they arrive on the moon? And that brings us to one of the strangest phrases in space law, which is do regard. 

[00:42:07] Michelle Hanlon: So one of the things that, that keeps me awake at night is we have in the outer space treaty, this concept called due regard. So I told you the fundamental precept of the outer space treaty is the freedom of access to all areas of celestial bodies free of, uh, freedom of expiration.

[00:42:23] Michelle Hanlon: And use that freedom is, is. Very, very unrestricted. There's very few restrictions. We have Article [00:42:30] four which says, okay, all celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes. Um, we have article three that says, you know, your activities have to be aligned with international law and, and that's it.

[00:42:42] Michelle Hanlon: You know, you can't place nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction anywhere in space. The only other restriction on that freedom of expiration and use is a concept called due regard. You shall conduct all of your activities in outer space with due regard to the corresponding interests of other states.

[00:42:58] Michelle Hanlon: Now, what the [00:43:00] heck does that mean? You know what? You know what it means? It means whatever that first mover wants it to mean when that first mover gets to the moon. If that first mover says, oh my goodness, due regard means you cannot come within 20 kilometers of my landing site, 'cause you're gonna ruin it.

[00:43:19] Michelle Hanlon: And that sets the precedent for due regard, and that's why there's a first mover advantage. If the Chinese put humans back on the moon first, you know, germs, disease, [00:43:30] infection, it all is not lost. The moon is a starting line, not a finish line, you know, so let's put our heads down and, and build the infrastructure we want and make sure that if China gets there first, we're not far behind.

[00:43:45] Michelle Hanlon: We have a concept in inter public international law called customary international law. Um, and that's where we don't have written treaty, but people just do things 'cause that because they think it, they need to, and they [00:44:00] understand that to be the rule. Um, and something under that, like how do we create custom is you're right by generating norms.

[00:44:07] Michelle Hanlon: Um, and norms are just like, oh, people just tend to do that. Um, and so for example, there's no international law that says that you stop at a red light, but national laws naturally evolved to all recognize that you stop at a red light or your stop sign is octagonal. You can recognize that wherever you are, and so.

[00:44:27] Michelle Hanlon: Yes, we can absolutely do that. But the problem is we [00:44:30] don't. When you, when you wanna create a norm, you need a lot of people to get together and, and agree. And we don't have a lot of people going to the moon. We're, we're in this funny, funny place where people turn to me all the time and say, oh, you don't have to worry.

[00:44:42] Michelle Hanlon: It's gonna be ages before anybody is getting back to the moon. And there's nobody to create a norm because nobody's going near them. Right now, and the problem is, is you know, norms usually come about because bad things happened, and so why do we have to wait for something bad to [00:45:00] happen? Let's create that norm now.

[00:45:03] Michelle Hanlon: So, you know, we're really focused so far on the moon, and I think it's, I think it's important to, to think about this, this concept of due regard and the, the work of the United Nations. The United Nations is off maligned. I honestly, um, probably with reason. But there is a United Nations office of Outer Space Affairs and there is a United Nations Committee on the [00:45:30] peaceful uses of outer space.

[00:45:31] Michelle Hanlon: And, and you know what? They have done a pretty darn good job since 1959 of keeping the peace in space. There are signs of sort of cracking at the seams, but we have. Four widely ratified treaties. We have a lot of, we call them non-binding resolution, soft law that countries tend to abide by. Um, and I, I think that we, we need to credit the United Nations body for creating this one [00:46:00] area where no matter what's happening in the world, everybody still comes to look at each other face to face.

[00:46:07] Michelle Hanlon: During the Cold War, they met at the COPIs, Russia invades Ukraine. Everyone's still meeting at the COPIs. Everyone goes, and I, I think it's because everybody understands fundamentally that space is different, and anything that happens in space, it's gonna affect every single person on Earth. It's really, really good and heartening to see that.[00:46:30] 

[00:46:30] John Mulnix: So do regard means whatever the first mover wants it to mean. Whoever gets there first doesn't just plant hardware or flags. They set the tone. They set expectations for future behavior. 

[00:46:46] Michelle Hanlon: I love the EMIS Accords. I think they are, uh. A stroke of brilliance. Uh, you, you talked about trying to create norms, right?

[00:46:54] Michelle Hanlon: You know what, what we have, when the, when the first outer space treaties were negotiated [00:47:00] back in the 1960s, there were only about 25, 30 countries involved. Now at the committee on the peaceful use of outer space, there are 104 countries involved, and everything that comes out of there has to be achieved by consensus.

[00:47:13] Michelle Hanlon: Right. So it's not an up and down vote. Any one person, any one delegate can say, nah, I, I don't buy it. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna vote for it. I say, no. So we're not gonna get any, any sort of hard binding law anytime soon. So the United States propose the Artemis Courts [00:47:30] now. The Artemis, the, the United States proposed this to a, a small group of allies.

[00:47:35] Michelle Hanlon: Okay? So this was not the United States. I know for a fact, for example, several of those provisions came in after the United States shared the, shared them with their allies. But, but the, you know, people grumble that it was like eight main countries putting them together. Okay. Grumble away. But, you know, let's look at the accords.

[00:47:54] Michelle Hanlon: They fundamentally, what did they do? They, they reinforce all of the [00:48:00] tenets of the Outer Space Treaty. Absolutely. The 90% of the Accords are just like, Hey, yeah, this, this is the outer Space treaty, and, and we're, we need to make sure we follow it. And then the other 10% are attempts to fill in some of the gaps left.

[00:48:15] Michelle Hanlon: And so one of the most controversial provisions is, um, section 10, which says, look, we believe that article two, which says you cannot appropriate, you can't claim territory and outer space. We believe extracting a [00:48:30] resource is not a violation of article two, it's not claiming territory. If you extract a resource and use it.

[00:48:38] Michelle Hanlon: Groundbreaking. Uh, this was, this was a, a, a law signed by President Obama. First the US put it into the Artemis Accords, and now 56 Nations agree with that. Not only that, 56 nations have signed this. It's not a treaty, it's a political commitment. 56 nations have signed that. And in addition, we have Japan, UAE, Luxembourg, and India following up [00:49:00] with their own legislation that says the same thing.

[00:49:03] Michelle Hanlon: If you mine it, you own it. And on top of all of that, China, which said, oh, you know, United States, the Artemis Accords are all wrong. Not because they're substantively wrong, but because they weren't negotiated. In the un and that's the only place you can negotiate anything about space. But hey, you know what?

[00:49:21] Michelle Hanlon: We kind of agree. You know, you, if you extract a resource, you're not violating Article two. Huge Breakthrough. That [00:49:30] doesn't happen unless the United States takes the lead. Takes an unpopular position, deals with the grumbling of the rest of the world because now what do we have? The Artemis Accords were introduced in 2020.

[00:49:40] Michelle Hanlon: The United Nations was not looking at space resource utilization was not looking into the issue at all. Now we have a working group in the UN on space resource utilization. Now we have a task force on lunar activity consultations. It was a catalyst to create movement and create, force the world to acknowledge the [00:50:00] fact that we are going back to the moon and if we don't.

[00:50:02] Michelle Hanlon: Do it right. If we don't reach agreement, there's gonna be conflict. 

[00:50:07] John Mulnix: When people say space is different, this is what they mean. There's a hope that we can cooperate and bring out the best in humanity. Space is one of those few places where we still have a chance to write the rules that we want to live by.

[00:50:23] Michelle Hanlon: So Artemis has always been about going back to stay and that, you know, it's not just about flags and boot prints, it's about [00:50:30] creating a continuous human presence. And when we look at things like Gateway, even though though it's not necessarily that humans will be on the moon 24 7, the idea is that this concept of gateway would replace the International Space Station and there would still be a constant human presence on or around the moon.

[00:50:50] Michelle Hanlon: That's, that's important because also, you know, the, the vision of the Trump administration is Moon to Mars, and there's a reason for that. 'cause you can't, yes. [00:51:00] Is Elon Musk gonna get to Mars without, you know, playing around on the moon? Sure. You know, he's a brilliant person and he's got a, a bunch of brilliant people working for him.

[00:51:10] Michelle Hanlon: But if we wanna do this as a state, you know, with taxpayer dollars, we need to create a presence on the moon and use that to learn how to live and work in space. The other thing we wanna do is. Protect the environment of the earth. One of the reasons that we need to create a community on the moon, uh, is so that we can start launching things from the moon.

[00:51:29] Michelle Hanlon: [00:51:30] Um, it's takes a lot of firepower to get a rocket all the way to Mars. Right. I'm, uh, I know. You, you know, it just, it's gotta be heavy. It's, and we don't know yet exactly what that's doing to our atmosphere. But it doesn't take a lot to shoot a rocket off of the moon. So let's, let's move our Mars Spaceport to the moon.

[00:51:49] Michelle Hanlon: Let's make that happen. And so that's why we need the, we need a community, we need infrastructure. We need to grow the moon, you know, just the way we are growing Antarctica. This is, this is, [00:52:00] it's got to move out of the realm of, oh my God, the moon to Oh, yeah. Going to the moon. I mean, I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime, but I, I do think, you know, I think people always say, you know, that there's a child in kindergarten today that will be the first person on Mars.

[00:52:14] Michelle Hanlon: You know what, the, the children in kindergarten today, we'll see Mars as just another destination. I'll be an expensive one. You know, I, I still can't afford to go to Antarctica. People can I, I think, I think that's what we're gonna see in the next generation. [00:52:30] 

[00:52:30] John Mulnix: NASA is an incredible agency and it's also one of the best soft power tools in human history.

[00:52:38] John Mulnix: I love how Michelle brought up seeing NASA logos overseas during her travels. I know I've seen similar things during my travels as well. For Halloween, I wore my Apollo era NASA flight jacket that I snagged from Luna Replicas a few years ago. I had a few people comment about the jacket and the NASA patch when I was shopping at a grocery store here in [00:53:00] Wichita.

[00:53:00] John Mulnix: One person even asked me if I worked for nasa, to which I had to respond. Sadly, no, it's just a fun jacket for Halloween, but we ended up talking about space as she scanned my groceries. NASA's budget is just a tiny drop in the federal bucket, but the return on that investment is far more than just the technological spinoffs or world firsts.

[00:53:23] Michelle Hanlon: NASA is incredible. Uh, NASA I think is the, the most well known, most beloved. [00:53:30] Agency in the entire world. I have, I have yet to go on a trip overseas anywhere and not see at least one person wearing an NASA t-shirt. You know, I mean, it, it is astounding. The, it, there's been a lot of consternation this year, you know, with what's happening at nasa, what's getting cut, what's not getting cut?

[00:53:49] Michelle Hanlon: Every, every government agency has waste that defense department on down. Right. NASA is an incredible, soft, um, soft. [00:54:00] Diplomacy power, and part of it is because the United States as a space power is incredibly responsible. We have the harshest regulations, we regulate our own space. Actors, SpaceX, blue Origin, ULA, Maxar far more than any other.

[00:54:22] Michelle Hanlon: State. In the country. In the world, we are the hardest on our, our licensees. Um, we make sure that they [00:54:30] remove their debris from orbit within five years of end of life. The rest of the world is 25 years. We have always put incredible restrictions and responsibilities upon our space actors, including nasa, and that's, that is something we cannot lose.

[00:54:44] Michelle Hanlon: We cannot lose the high ground. You know, we might, we'll, we'll, China. Put humans back on the moon before the United States maybe. But do I think maybe we can take a little bit more risk than we do? Maybe. But what we cannot risk losing is that, and I, I'm gonna call it moral [00:55:00] superiority, because we do things, we are a little bit slower, you know, because we are really responsible.

[00:55:06] Michelle Hanlon: We care about the space environment, we care about debris, and we care what, it's gonna truly bring allies and partners with us when we go back. 

[00:55:16] John Mulnix: As we wrap up this episode, let's listen to astronaut Gene Cernan and his final words from the lunar surface during Apollo 17.

[00:55:27] Astronaut Gene Cernan: Bob, [00:55:30] this is Gene and I'm on the surface, and as I take man's last step from the surface back home. For some time to come, but we believe not too long In the future, I'd like to just let what I believe history will record that America's challenge of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow. [00:56:00] And as we leave the moon and we leave it, we came.

[00:56:07] Astronaut Gene Cernan: And God willing, as we shall return with peace and hope and time. God, the crew of Apollo 17.

[00:56:25] John Mulnix: My hope for this episode is that you've taken the importance of preservation, both on [00:56:30] and off earth for the Apollo era artifacts and landing sites. The importance for norms is crucial as well, especially because of the work that the United States has done to ensure that we're responsible actors in space.

[00:56:45] John Mulnix: That's it for part four of the Lunar era. Thanks to Michelle and Jim for coming on the podcast. I really enjoyed chatting with them about their areas of expertise. Next up, we've got part five, which will close out this mini series. I'm [00:57:00] excited to have Casey Dreier from the Planetary Society. Join us for that episode.

[00:57:05] John Mulnix: I'd really appreciate it if you could leave a rating or review for the space shot in your podcast app of choice. As always, you can also find links and more information about this episode in the show notes. Be sure to check out for All Moon Kind. They do some incredible work. And if you're ever in Kansas, gotta check out the Cosmosphere.

[00:57:24] John Mulnix: I'm a bit biased, but I think it's worth a trip to Kansas just for the [00:57:30] Cosmosphere. If you've got any questions, you can send me a message. john@thespaceshot.com, or you can call or text (720) 772-7988. If you've got a question, I'm happy to include it in an upcoming q and a episode that I'll do after the lunar era wraps.

[00:57:48] John Mulnix: Until next time, I'm John Mulnix and I'll catch you on the flip [00:58:00] side.