we don't need an explicit rating on this here podcast well we'll need it for the next segment oh okay beep save that for later all right yeah you can just clip that and just use that for for whenever yeah um we talked last time remember when i got upset about rss and then i said no not this episode i'm not going to drag you guys into that oh here we are i'm gonna drag you and i'm gonna drag you into it now instead if that's all right um i don't remember i don't remember why it came up i can't even fathom that was what was that a fortnight ago who could even remember that far back but rss came up and it you know it's the solution everything it's great yada yada yada it's the you know grand denominator of all internet it's blah blah okay fine um i have some some issues with it that are kind of annoying oh i know why now andrew was was complaining about my rss feed i think he's frozen he might be frozen i'm not sure i was just or he's just he's just really really into my conversation here okay cool is this when your rss feed kind of regenerated itself 20 times in like doctor who's style and we saw many different permutations and manifestations and now i'm doing it i'm i'm hand building the rss feed myself and publishing it every time because it's it's kind of fun you run your own mail server while you're at it oh we can get that'll be next episode um but rss it was annoying me for other reasons in that you know if you do an rss feed people have opinions about what should be in the rss feed That's fair. It should be the whole feed. It should be this. It should be that. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. It's really simple. Yeah. It's really, yeah, it's a really simple solution. I've heard. My problem with it, though, is that I feel like its strength is its weakness, which doesn't really make sense. And what I mean by that is that it kind of just takes everything and makes it look exactly the same. And it just becomes a chore. And now what, you know, a major news outlet looks the same as your friend's cool blog. And now it's just another inbox and it's just this utility to make everything uniform, which is great. Again, it's awesome. But like everybody puts cool time into making their neat little website and you never get to see it. And that just seems, it seems backwards to me. I feel like I prefer the days of going to my bookmarks, clicking on Andrew's webpage, seeing his cool little internet site and what's up going on there. Click on it on Martin's little cool internet website, seeing what's going on there, what he's done with it. If he's changed it from like light purple to dark purple this week, what's going on there. Instead, I just kind of get text on a page. There's like an image jammed in there. It kind of looks like shit. I don't know. I just, I'm kind of, I'm kind of not that in, I know people are gonna be pissed and be like, oh, RSS is great. I get it. Like, that's fine. But just the presentation of it just feels like a waste to me. And it makes all content kind of just be something to go through the feed and get through as fast as possible and then move on. And I feel like that's kind of a bummer. I don't know. I haven't figured it out yet, but I kind of want to just move back to being like, I've got a bookmarks folder of like 20 websites and I just look at those like it's 2002 again. So thoughts, comments, questions? You know how whenever you're shopping for a new car and you want to get a yellow car and then suddenly you see yellow cars everywhere? And then suddenly you're aware of them everywhere and there's a psychological thing for that. I can't remember what it's called, but it's a thing where you identify things because you're on the lookout for it. I knew you were going to talk about RSS because you passed on it last time. And then this week I noticed in my RSS feed reader a link from Kotki's site about why do RSS readers all look the same. You know, the three-pane view, the unreads, all that kind of stuff. He was linking to another article, which was a brilliantly written article and also brilliantly presented. And if I'd read that in an RSS feed, it would have been kind of sucky. But I went to the actual website, Terry Godier. Godier? I linked to it here. and he talks about phantom obligations, you know, with unread. I love that term. I read the same thing. Yeah, unread counts. It's a good term. You know, just creating unnecessary anxiety. And I could certainly relate to that because I do like to keep my RSS feed down to zero at every cycle. And so I've been going, and I was like, that's a good article. And so this week I've done a little experiment, and I've gone back to using Tapestry by Icon Factory. I've tried it before. It's the river of news kind of thing. I'm a few days into the experiment, but I've already got my doubts because even with that, I'm still trying to pick up where I left off and scroll to the top. So, I'm still trying to complete it. You almost have that problem that Terry mentions in the article about even though tapestry is a great idea and we like the icon factory and they're not a, you know, a hungry social media site with, you know, ad revenue and preying on people. You're probably experiencing what was in Terry's blog post about the feeling of the endlessly scrolling feed, which is the different progressed version of what the RSS reader was. Do you feel like that's what's happening? Yeah, it's not like I'm dipping into the river of news and then pulling out again. I'm putting a little marker in the bank of the river where I last looked at it and then trying to walk to the next point and then marking it again so I can dip in at exactly the same point. There's no flow because it's still, I'm still stockpiling. Yeah. And the other, the thing that I'm in this new, new old world of, I have a bookmark folder. The thing that I've noticed that is, that I don't really think I thought about before was that, okay, take Andrew's site, for instance. If I just click on it and there's no new posts for this week, this day, whatever, I see all the rest of the page. There's other, there's this now page. There's this page. There's this page. There's that page. which I never see ever if I only look at RSS. So all the updates happening on all the other pages, or like if you're insane like a Rob Knight who has like 100 new pages every week, you would never see any of those only doing RSS, but you do when you go to the website. And like a great example, his website's phenomenal. It's crazy how cool it is. You go to look at that RSS, It's just boring, drab, black and white text that looks exactly the same as CNN.com. And it just kind of makes, in some ways it's good because it makes everything equal, but in some ways that's kind of not great. Because CNN has 4,000 articles today. You know, Andrew has one. If I'm kind of overwhelmed with all that shit, and I just mark as read the whole thing, I miss out on like those little gems of fun. So I just, I, I, I feel like I'm being really like dismissive of RSS and like how, what a, it's driving this fricking show for crying out loud. But, but it's just, I feel like I'm at a point now where it's not serving my need for, I guess what I want. And maybe what I want is different from what everybody else wants. I don't know. Less people are writing on blog sites anymore as well. So, is RSS, is that making it more or less important? I don't know, the less people overall publishing, but then when they do publish, you don't want to miss it because it might be good. At least it's independent. Well, I'm glad that you brought up the word presentation earlier because I think there's the point about RSS's presentation and whether everything looks the same and the point of it being probably the world's most useful delivery mechanism of information. But like you make a good point, Andrew, about blogging and publishing. Right. But without RSS, there's no podcasting industry. Right. As we know it from what Jason just said. So I think as a way of delivering instant information in a way that doesn't apply the same pressure as something like Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever, it's fantastic. But if there are tools that people can create, as this article has put well, that maybe you can just see the web page or the blog post as it appeared or customize things to look different in a kind of tapestry way. That's the thing. So maybe people just need to be more imaginative, says the non-developer here, making it sound easy. Maybe people just need to be more imaginative in how they present things differently or offer customization tools. But I don't think that the mechanism itself should change or be derided. Am I making sense? I think so. I think it's just, I don't think RSS is a requirement for these things to exist, though. Like, you don't need RSS to be able to go to a web page and look at something. Whereas RSS is nothing without the stuff going into it. So it's a bolt-on to the things you want to go see that just simply kind of drags it all into one place. I think it's mostly the visual part that kind of drives me nuts because I don't like that everything looks exactly the same and you have no feeling or intention from the person. What if, now hear me out, guys, because as Jason, as Martin said earlier, he's not a developer, neither am I, but hear me out. What if websites were presented graphically in a window, but it was like a cover flow? So you remember cover flow from iTunes? back in the day. I do, yes. And you feel like you could fan through. Imagine fanning through your favourite indie websites and then just like pulling one off the shelf like an album. Love it. Bring it to me. Is it out yet? That may be the ultimate collection of technologies and designs already invented. But we've got the web browser. You could call it Newsstand. Do you hear what I'm saying? It's a web browser. it's a newsreader it's an internet communicator are you getting it are you getting it i get it i'm getting i'm very much getting it yeah i'm i'm on board and it fits in my pocket and it holds a thousand songs can i sit in a comfy leather chair and lean back and scroll hell yeah oh man i'm on board that is actually what we want we want a cover flow rss browser that doesn't deliver rss feeds that delivers the website. I had an alternate idea that I would love to run by you all that I'm going to develop right after the show. What if your RSS feed just showed you all your feeds and gave you strictly a number that a new feed existed on that website? And when you clicked on the title of the website, it just opened up their website in your browser to that feed. So And the way things look. He hates it. But he hates it so much. No, I don't. What do you think about that, Martin? Would that fulfill your need? I'm all for choices like that, or if people want to do it differently, to explain. He's so not on board. No, no, I'm on board with others wanting to do what they want to do. He hates it. Okay. I respect that people are putting it. Yep. No, that pitch did not go well. Elevator pitch. I got off early before we even got to the top floor because he's out. I just want to explain my preference. Shark tank. Says the third white man on the show. I like the fact, and I totally understand what you're saying, Jason, about you want to see the effort and the design of the personality of the person's webpage. I don't dismiss it. You can like that. I like the fact that in a textual or visual space. Right. I don't dismiss it. You can like that. Anyway. You can like that. Anyway. Yeah. I like the uniformity of it. Right. Whether it's in the form of text using something like Net Newswire or whether it's listening to a podcast, which is really just audio. Right. Unless you're going for video podcasts. It's just the experience of people talking and you get the people's personalities through the experience of the voice. I like the fact that I'm just reading the words off the page or in this case, the screen. like the fact that everything is stripped away and I'm just hearing in my mind what is being written by the person who's made the effort of the blog. So to me, the written words are more important or interesting to me than the look of the webpage. And that's the, to me, if you do away with or feel that RSS in that sense is superseded and it loses that kind of power or people or passion that people have for it suddenly this thing that is just this grand equalizer in terms of sending out information is kind of lost i understand you don't like the equalization of the web page and doing away with that stuff but i like it in terms of just seeing words on a screen yes you have your hand up i have my hand up i have like 20 minutes i actually wasn't i was looking down like i was in thought and that made it funnier um i disagree on the point of podcasts in the sense that RSS doesn't matter for podcasts. And what I mean by that is it doesn't change the podcast whatsoever. If I email you this MP3, if you get it through RSS, if you find it on blog.net, it's the same exact content every single time, no matter what. So just with that statement, you've essentially thrown my entire six and a half years of work of PhD thesis out the window. No, that's not what I'm saying, actually. I'm just teasing you. It's just, it, yeah. What I'm saying is not that. It's something adjacent to that, but also gets my point across to you. I relinquish the rest of my time. Yeah. I've made my point. I won't go on further with that. He wants to, though. It's not going to be the whole show. That's RSS in a nutshell. Oh, wait, hold on. There's more things popped up in the notes. Magnet. oh that's me i put it up i was like what are you talking about you make it i was like that's an app i don't know oh you had a new section under rsn or does that's just to go somewhere else yeah i put it up because you were talking about web pages it was actually this thing and i've taken i've blurred some information out of it um which was more personal but um natasha in her role at uh school as like the tech administrator because she's a teacher um she came across this wonderful old Apple web page, which is the Apple push certificates portal. It's current. It's now. And it's just this beautiful reminder of how things used to look. And you can even see iPod at the top in like the tabs. Wait, what? It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. iTunes. It's got store, Mac, iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes and support. And it's like the, was it Aqua? What's the little, the little, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we'll include a link in the show notes or something or whatever. But I just thought it was this wonderful thing where, you know, how people complain about how Windows has this old stuff down in certain levels of its interface? Less so the case with macOS. But on the web, just the way that things connect and these legacy things have to be upheld or people don't update or pay attention to, you find there's little gems. It's even got copyright 2021. It's great. Yeah. So, I thought I'd elevate that. As we were just talking about the way that web pages look. And look, to your point, Jason, I agree. If you were to RSSify something like this, although it's obviously not a blog post or an update, you would lose that personality. So I concede that point. You wouldn't have this beautiful gem, would you? No, this thing is glorious. It's got the old little flag circles and everything. Yeah, it's beautiful. Gosh, we had it good back in the day, didn't we? Anyway, just because everyone loves liquid glass these days, I thought I'd show you that. Was Aqua the original liquid glass? I don't know. It was kind of glassy. In terms of being glossy. Or was it more, were those little buttons made of plastic? Maybe. At least not everything was refracting the moment that you shifted your pointer or whatever. That was probably more a plastic era, I would guess. Oh man, that's the greatest. I love that. And that icon, the earth icon there, I feel like that was from an app. It was like a weird server app of some kind. Hang on, hang on. I can't remember what it's called. Okay, I'm just realizing that's going from Cupertino. Is that Venezuela? oh i don't know what foreshadowing didn't see that coming it was there the whole time copyright 2021 do you follow up on your ubiquity andrew yeah yeah that's right you'll remember that i um was playing around my euros i've successfully taken my euro offline accidentally twice in the last fortnight trying to improve its performance wait hold on hold on successfully taking it offline accidentally yeah interpret that one so apparently it turns out that even though my isp says it supports ipv6 and i do have a static ip address um if you enable ipv6 support on the euro it destroys my entire network sweet is that a feature but um yeah anyway so they call that filtering where it just filters the whole internet you get so dumb anyway um i have been i was looking at ubiquity and i think i made the comment that it was i couldn't even understand how to buy it let alone install it then i found out that apparently because you can't even buy it for australia on their website it's very confusing um friend friend of the show friend of mine nick said that I could, there is a local reseller in Perth that sells all the ubiquity here. So there is a place I could buy it, but that's not helpful because I still don't know what to buy. But then Erland heard my problems and he wrote a fantastic blog post. Yeah. Addressing all my concerns. It looks like it was written just for you, actually. Look, it may well, if it was written just for me, I mean, he mentions me in the post. so uh yeah i'm going to take that it was written just for me so erlin's now my personal scribe whenever i have a problem i'm just going to throw it out into the ether and and assume that a blog post with the solution will be written at this point but this is a really good post uh really helpful and got me totally understanding how the ubiquity universe works got me looking into can my switch, can I run power over Ethernet? Which I can, I guess, because the Ubiquiti stuff's all power over Ethernet, whereas the Eero's are not. So the only thing that has held me back from actually acting on this blog post at this point in time is spending like another thousand dollars on networking gear that I don't really need. It's so fun though. And the actual effort of hardware mounting the Ubiquiti access points. because it looks like you've got to use it. Like, whereas the Eero's you just place on a table. These things you have to drill into. Like, you've got to install a mounting point. Some of them. Do you own a drill, Andrew? I do own a drill, but I don't like using a drill. Do you own one? Start drilling. I'm just giving excuses, Andrew. Oh, I know. Stuff it up. Like, I'm in WA. We've got brick walls, right? So, it's an effort when you're drilling into brick. You've really got to be sure of what you're doing. Is this some sort of wealthy utopia? Hear that, Jason? Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. Perth has bricks. Yeah. We don't. No. All of our houses are made of hay. That's right. So, when the wolf comes. The number of problems, like with visiting wolves. It's terrible. So, I have envisioned my ubiquity solution now. I have envisioned it. I know what I need to get. A concept of a network. Yes, yes. I'm going to get my power injector, my power over Ethernet injectors. I'm going to mount these ubiquities somewhere inobtrusive. Unobtrusive, inobtrusive, unobtrusive. But at this point, I haven't done it. And I probably won't until one of the Eros breaks. Would it entice you if that meant we could do a site-to-site VPN? Maybe. What would we actually do with that? Who cares? We've already got a Plexer. How fun would that be? it would be fun ironically i gotta say this if jason was in perth i think this is a project we would do because jason's good with hardware like installations he he does woodworking he's i wouldn't even ask you i'd install it overnight it'd be installed you'd wake up and be like what happened it'd be like here's your invoice i just think it'd be really fun so so here's my promise to you okay jason yeah if you come to perth okay i will let you i've i've got a spare bed you can you can stay in the spare bed okay i'll pay for the unify equipment but you've got to pay for your trip here um okay is that like this whole apple watch ultra thing in reverse how did that go wasn't this yeah i'm gonna ship jason here and then we're gonna go out we're gonna go shopping we're gonna buy the unify equipment and then i'm gonna hand you my drill and we're We're going to do it. And when I say we, I mean, I'll be You're going to hand him your drill and then you're going to do it. Is there going to be some PPE purchased first or I'll be passing him the things. He'll say like, hand me the drill bit and I'll pass him the drill bit. And he'll go And then it'll be the wrong one. And I'll be like, no, not this one. I need Oh, because it's Perth brick. Jason doesn't know how to deal with that very well. Oh, I'm very well versed in Perth brick. So, all we need is for you to get here. And then I've got myself a new network. And it will be fun. And we can blog about it. And we can put it on our RSS feeds. We can even podcast about it. So I get to pay for my trip. I get to do all the work. And what? Content. We get content for the show. Content. Right. That's right. The big old capital C content. Yep. That run sheet would fill itself up in no time. Oh, man. I can't wait. Okay. I'll put it on the schedule. For making this trip happen. You got it. Hey, look, on the bright side, Jason, we'd get you out of the US. That's true. That would be nice. Yeah, I will look into my schedule for when I'm available to do network installs. Perth is definitely the first place that I would go. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Well, I just want to say we got an email from Mark. Hi, Mark. Hello, Mark. Mark. How do you say Mark? How do you say Mark? Why don't you just say his name? Why does it have to be weird? So anyway, Mark, thank you. You sent a really kind email saying that this was recently, I think it was 155. It was 154. It would have been 155. One of the best shows. He really enjoyed the show, and he suggested that that was potentially a new high watermark for our performances. Really? The last one? Doesn't say much about the previous 154 times we've tried to do this, But I'm taking it as a When the well is dry, the watermark is low. I'm taking it as a praise. And I'm sure he's enjoying this one just as much as the last one. Oh, he's so thrilled about He's bursting. All of it. Hey, look, we've continued the old man theme. It's like, we argue about RSS at the beginning. People are like, what? They're like checking their clocks and their calendars. Oh, man. Is this over yet? This is boring. I mean, like, they think it's the year 2002 or something. Oh, well, it kind of is, in a way. I'll tell you about this. Speaking of follow-up. Did we finish up on the scanners? Did I just put that on my blog? I think that's all done. I think you just want to talk about scanners. I think you just wanted to bring up. You wanted a segue for scanners. I identified the scanner. Did you thank Mark or are we still thanking Mark? Good on you, mate. Thanks. Cheers. What more do you want, man? How much thank you get? You wrote an email. How much? I appreciate it. Don't get me wrong, but I don't want to overblow it. What if somebody sends me a cake? I've got to keep my. You're never getting a cake at this rate. No. If you don't get a cake by year three and a half, you're never getting a cake. Actually, I got something. I should thank you, Jason, as well. Okay. I want to hear this. So, Martin, block your ears because you might not have gotten one yet. But a few days ago, I received it. It's not a cake. Do I actually have to block? Do I have to take my e-phones out? You do. Yeah. Okay. All right. See you. Just for the sake of the. Okay. Yeah. Can he actually not hear us? I don't think he can, but I just want to thank you for the Christmas card. You're welcome. Arrived on the 28th of January. It was very kind of you, very thoughtful. Thank you. I don't know if you sent one to Martin and whether he's got it yet. I did. Yeah. I assumed that it was lost because it was sent a month and a half ago. Okay. Yeah. Merry Christmas. I really appreciate it. It was really kind. All right, Martin, you can come back. You can put those. Am I allowed to come back now? You're back now. Pointing and shaking. He's back. He's back. Hello, everyone. Thanks, Jason. Thanks, Mark. Mark, Mark, Mark. I'm trying to do American Mark. Just Mark. I have. Thanks, Erland. I have two. No, I have three quick topics. And then a question for both of you slash the listeners. You've got nine minutes. Cool. Oh, plenty of time. Okay. So thumbs up. I got a thumbs up corner. I just do it. I like that he just does that. I'll just do it right in the edit. I'll get it down to find that little file clip. Drop it in. This is mostly for Martin because I don't think Andrew cares. A little thing I like to call KNF concepts. have you heard of this? KLF, they were a disco band in the 90s it is a magnetic lens cap just drop it on, it pops on and you're good to go it's absolutely phenomenal it's a little ring, put on your lens you can put a lens cap on there you can put lens filters on there no more threading these fine threads potentially cross threading could be dangerous it's just magnets you know magnets make everything better so uh knf concepts i was a little skeptical i'd never heard of them but i bought one for the lens cap and it's great so if you need a lens cap or you just hate your lens cap or you use filters a lot knf concepts they get your back and they do like the magnetic filters as well but the yeah it's pretty cool i've seen those uh reviewed and you can do the filter and then i think the cap can even go on top of the filter itself so you can kind of like stack them if you want it's it's pretty great and the the ring that goes on the lens is basically invisible it's very very small i still don't know where the magnets are but i believe they're there does that um become a bit of a fidget toy for you though like are you constantly just snapping them on and off at the risk of them actually shattering because it seemed just i'm just hearing it over like our call for the podcast here and it's like oh okay are you guilty of that here we go yeah there we go click a little bit but what you got to do is basically take the cap off put it real deep in your pocket so you can't get to it as easy and then you're good and then when you get it back put it back on so so many thumbs up because you're just you're playing with it yeah it's great absolutely great okay thumbs up end um netflix is gonna have podcasts because of course they are yeah speaking of rss um nothing really to talk about there other than um who cares and video podcasts are not podcasts no they're vodcasts i will i will stand on the hill that is video podcasts are not podcasts and i will die on that hill and netflix is obviously doing it because why they make movies and tv shows and then people make podcasts about that crap and then they want to own the whole thing and put a bunch of ads in that of course so i think they also realize that uh their biggest competitor is really youtube yes like oh you know exactly on this and disney that well yeah they've got their own spaces but it's really netflix versus youtube in terms of eyeballs and netflix will have vertical video shorts and all that crap soon enough it's whatever anyway netflix sucks uh next and this one is oh i won't say i love the title i love the the bullet point here this is very uh i won't say it because i don't want you to have to yeah you save me some work yeah this one says f apple and their bs is that okay perfect thanks it's fine with me okay so this whole what was it creator creator studio mega package whatever thing happened and initially of course i go to like oh crap now they're gonna like take away all the stuff that we used to have for free and charge us this is great of course because services um anyway everybody assured me no no pages numbers and keynote are fine you're gonna be fine i was like all right cool that's all i use anyway i have the other ones i don't really use them that often but whatever anyways i load up pages as I was talking to Andrew earlier today about some hot and heavy spreadsheeting that I was doing. Hot and heavy spread-sheeting. I DMed Andrew, obviously, about my hot and heavy spreadsheeting. And I opened up my pages because, you know, I have a Mac, so it's got pages on it. Or I'm sorry, did I say pages? I meant numbers. I opened up numbers. Because I'm like, what am I going to get, Office? sorry co-pilot whatever um so i open up numbers and uh it says hey there's a new a new version for numbers you should go to the app store i was like wait wait a second i just did like a update like just the other day how could that be and i ignore it because i'm trying to get into my spreadsheet right you know i'm in andrew mode i'm just like get out of my face i need this spreadsheet to be open i need to be in there i need to be in those cells it's depreciating exactly like if i'm not in cell d14 right now like this is critical so then flash to today to try to shorten this uh boring story i'm loving it keep going and i open it and again it's a stupid modal pops up which by now i'm sick i thought for sure it was gonna say numbers needs to access stuff on your network do you want to allow like if i ever see that dialogue again it wasn't that though it said again hey there's an update for numbers and like i'm digging in my brain like when has an app ever told me to go to the app store to update it like that that does not seem like a normal thing so i say i go to no what do i do i go to the app store i say check for updates there's no updates what the heck is going on here so i click this stupid button which turns out spoiler it's an ad basically to get me to get numbers 15 instead of numbers 14.5 oh that's okay so actually no you are gonna start charging me for the thing that used to be free with my mac for the last 25 years 12.99 a month or some garbage so i said no i noped out of that i'm in still on numbers 14.5 and i will be until the end of time until it stops working and then i guess i don't use numbers anymore because this is insanely ridiculous that for two thousand dollars on a computer you're now going to charge me 12.99 a month to use a stupid spreadsheet program so that is um the state of the union so i can just i can just clarify something Well, you can continue to use the new versions of pages and numbers without paying the $12.99. Except every time I open the damn thing, I get a dialogue telling me that there is a new version to go get that I don't want. No, the 15. But if you get the 15, then it doesn't give you the dialogue, right? It just becomes, it just runs. But once you start using it, like you open up a brand new blank spreadsheet in the new version of numbers there is like a little bright in the toolbar most of the icons are black and white as they typically are then there's purple ones yeah and the purple ones that stand out are the ones that you have to pay for and when you click them then you get a um a modal that jumps up saying that you need to pay for it oh my goodness all right well i guess what i'm just thinking is like you're making 235 million dollars a day leave numbers the f**k alone sorry Andrew like I'm just you're nickel and diming the ever-loving shit out of me they've stuffed it like that I'm not I'm not defending it I am not defending this move because it's bullshit and they shouldn't have done it no I and I get that I'm just like I I try to let someone to be like oh business oh whatever but it's like come on guys like the computer should be free at this point with how much you're charging for all this other crap. I do know that what I'm about to say is very much from another era of computing, although it's only like 20 years ago, but that's, I suppose, dinosaur times when we're talking about digital technology. Apple is certainly not suffering. We just saw with their most recent quarterly results, what was it, like $143 billion or something? It's literally like $300 million a day. It's pretty good. To me, what's really degraded Net profit, not gross, like net i think this is actually in some ways as a deal if not a bigger deal than stuff like the whole liquid glass and design thing because the whole appeal the whole computer for the rest of us thing about the mac was that you bought this computer which traditionally might have been a little bit more because you got all the cool stuff with it granted if it was a traditional quote-unquote pro application like final cut pro or express or logic or something then you would pay more for that but you had the iLife suite you had the iWork suite first of all was like a paid enhancement but it then got added free like the rest I think that even if Apple doesn't suffer financially it is damaging its own brand and the expectation of quality bundled in with the thing that you buy the fact that they've sucked all this in even if it technically works as Andrew says and then prompt you with colors to upgrade something this shows that um taste at least in a sense is disappearing from Apple a little bit. Have either of you seen that Steve Jobs like lost interview from the 90s that was recovered? You can see him. He makes this big point about how Microsoft had no taste and I think this is a tasteless move. Yeah. Whether it's design or how they run their business, I still think the Mac is better. I still like a lot of the things that Apple does, but you do see more and more of this stuff creeping in when the selling proposition of Apple was that you got a package that you could depend on and quality stuff that didn't prompt you with ads and inbuilt yucky dark patterns and stuff and this is a degradation of their experience which i would say is often worse than a design it ended when you walked out the door you walked out the door and the thing you had did everything you needed that was it you could always get more but that you were good to go it's not the case anymore now i just feel like it's this facade that you walk out now it's like oh i have office oh for 30 days oh okay i guess i don't have i don't really have this the The new thing is that they're putting stuff in there that feels dirty and cheeky. Yes. To like make you do stuff. Yes, you had to pay for apps and it might not have been subscription based, but you never ever got something and had it flashing in the interface at you like some sort of ad. It's just never been so utterly clear that the person that the only person that matters is the shareholder and not the person buying the computer. But I think they forget that sometimes shareholders are also users. So I wonder how many shareholders out there are offended by what they're saying in terms of use of the device. They don't care because they're getting dividends beyond dividends. And again, they're making $235 million a day. So like they're fine. Maybe there are three of them. There are three of them. Maybe three. But they overlook it when they're flying their private jet to Barbados. So it's probably fine. I just think it's amazing that you could end up with two versions of each application running on your computer. And it has to throw a dialogue at you saying, oh, delete the old one. It's bizarre. So, can you imagine how many people won't know how to do that? I have not downloaded the new ones because You own the whole thing. The whole point of you owning everything is that this is supposed to just work. Get the new version, but delete the old version. Just delete the old version yourself. People give shit to Microsoft for putting ads like in the start bar or whatever. But like, I feel like we're days away from that. and I'm not even just trying to be that guy or whatever. I genuinely feel like they don't care, and they're just going to put whatever makes another buck for revenue. Because people will just absorb it and be like, oh, but that's okay. Because the most, like... No, I'm not going to... I'm going to cheer Jason up. I'm going to cheer him up. Can we go to my next topic? Yes, just let me cheer you up. It'll take 10 seconds. Yes. How good is HackMD? I was just able to snapshot a couple of screenshots, Drag and drop them straight in there. And there they are. HackMD, loving it. Yes. I am pleased with the service. Thank you, Jason. Those icons are so gross. I saw them pop in and went. Yeah, HackMD is too good. It was too insane. Okay, last topic. This is the last topic. I think it's a fun one. And I think it's another like, hey, everybody chime in, you know, again. If you want to be like Mark and email it, or if you want to be like anyone else and send it to some other way. I was thinking recently about, I guess I would call it lifetime items. Okay, we're talking about computers. A computer lasts for a handful of years, five years, ten years, whatever. It's going to be crap at some point. At the very least, the battery will die and it won't work. A phone, a handful of years again. All this tech crap is finite lifespan. But there are things that you can buy or acquire that will quite literally outlive you. And I was kind of going through my head and just through the house thinking about like, what in, and this sounds morbid, I don't mean it to be, but like, what in my house will be used by someone after I am gone more than likely, you know? And a couple of things came to mind for me. And I was just curious if anything is in either of your lives like that, where, And just for example, so my watch that I wear every day, it's a mechanical watch. Theoretically, it can go forever with a star on that. Things wear out eventually, but a little bit of maintenance here or there, it will outlive me for sure. I have a Leatherman multi-tool, like one of those things that has like pliers and screwdriver and like a knife and stuff. And the build, like it's not going anywhere. That thing will be in many, many hands after I am gone, whether it's because it's a collectible or somebody wants to still use it. But there just seems to be obviously fewer and fewer things like that. But I was curious if either of you had, and then by extension, people listening, things in your life that you are actively using or just that you maybe have that you would consider lifetime kinds of items. I think I definitely should have more of these things. I like the way you put that, like digital stuff is finite. It's not the best. I agree with you on the watch. We spoke about watches. I've got this brown or brawn watch. That's exactly why I got it, so that it was no longer this thing to update needlessly. You know, no apparent reason. All the books behind me that you two can see, these bookshelves, this collection that Natasha and I have and the kids as well, will not be ours forever. And that's not more, but that's just the way life is. And one day it'll go into someone else if they're interested. And we've had that at the local, although they run them around the country, the Lifeline Book Fair, which supports Lifeline services. You can look that up. I'm sure it'll include show notes for people in Australia or beyond. And you can see all the time in just these massive, just this warehouse of tables of used, like, just these secondhand books everywhere. And just the whole local community pours through it to find all these secondhand gems. And you can see, like, this was owned by someone for years. And you can pick it up for Book donation? You donate to this? Yeah, it's a fundraising thing. Absolutely. You drop them off and then they do this massive sale. I think it's actually the biggest in Brisbane, maybe. That's the largest in the country. I'm not sure. But people love it. And we go every time it's on. And you can just see the age of some of the books and how much joy it must have brought people. Or, you know, maybe people have passed on and it's been taken there by loved ones. And books, I feel, have that, you know, it's open access to information and you can just keep going. Otherwise, actually sitting right next to me here, although it's a digital device, I would put the iPod Hi-Fi in that category in a way. Yeah. Yeah, two behind you, Jason. I think there's one behind you, Andrew. And I'm not on the iPod Hi-Fi bandwagon. I'm not saying it's the greatest speaker ever made. Andrew doesn't think so. Jason does. He's on the bandwagon. You heard it here first. You were talking about earlier, Jason, you were talking about analog connectors, right? iPods might no longer be made, but if you have one, you can plug it in. If you happen to have the big batteries that it takes in the back, you can make it work. If you want to plug it into anything that has that analog connection, you can do it. So here's an example of a fantastic device that Apple made, right, which is technically digital, but has an analog interface, which to this day is bringing me joy and is not dying because they said it's not getting software updates anymore. Do you So there are digital examples that go on. Is a D battery not a thing for either of you in your lives? I've never needed to use one. I used to have them, but not anymore. I've never taken it to a campsite like Apple suggested. Okay. So, I think, yeah, that's an example and it sits here right next to me to this day. If I had to think about it, I think there's two that I can think of. There's jewellery, but I don't think anybody else would wear my jewellery. I don't have a lot of jewellery and I don't think anybody else would wear it. So, it kind of doesn't really count. I think that still qualifies, though. That's a lifetime kind of thing. So, I'm going to go with two other things. So, I've got one would be artwork. So I've got quite a bit of artwork scattered around the house. And I'm sure that some of it I've inherited from other places. And I'm sure some of it will be passed down. Some of it will probably end up in a skip bin. And that's okay. That's what happens. But some of it will probably move on once I'm gone. The other thing would be probably biros. I have a lot of biros just lying around. Those are pens, right? Yeah, pens. Okay. And like, you know, like if a pen works, you don't throw it out, do you? You just hang on to it. That's why I've ended up with so many pens scattered around the place. Because if it's a pen and it works, you just hang on to it, you just chuck it in a drawer because you think, oh, I might need that pen one day. So, you end up with a lot of pens. That's true. So, fast forward into the future, someone's cleaning out your house, how many pens are they finding? Oh, like if you went through... Hundreds. Goodness me, there's probably... If I had to do a stock take around this whole house, I'd say there's 60 pens probably. Down the side of the lounge, in the back of the fridge. In these textas, highlighters. Shower next to your sexy man. It's basically a little mini office works. I've got all sorts of station. I've got a whole bucket of post-it notes. Basically, I've got a little mini station. A bucket of post-it notes. Seriously, these post-it notes, I've had them myself for like 20 years. Hang on. How many rubber bands have you collected over the years? And he's gone. He's moved away from the computer. If he's ever needing to do like an impromptu, you know, risk analysis matrix on a wall with post-its, he's ready. This is important. Here he goes. And he's back. He's back. What's he got? We're going to get a walk through every single bar. We get the sound. Okay. Digging through. Like. That's just a bag of. Bag of. Stationery. Are there bull clips in there? There's everything in there. But now that was just the. That's like an Officeworks. That was the ad hoc. Are you a fan of a confidential stamp? It's his Officeworks go bag. It's like a. Like box. It's like a mini filing cabinet. That is a lot of post-its. It's like you've pulled up with the classic briefcase full of US currency, but it's actually just full of post-it notes. Oh, man. If I could reach back there, I would pull out the roll-away cart full of post-its. Staplers. Staples. Oh, certainly. Like little boxer clips. See those? Staplers. Like a whole box of these things. Bulldog clips. All right. So he's got a lot of, we'll call it office equipment that may or may not have come from a workplace. We'll leave that aside. Do you need some elastic bands? Actually, I was looking for those the other day. I knew that, yeah, I knew there were rubber bands. There they are. They're adhesive hook and loop tape because you never know when that one. Oh, shit. Jason, this is not going to stop. How do we make it stop? Before we go through his entire stolen Officeworks collection. Electrical tape. That might be good for ubiquity installation. Good. I would just love to call out to anyone that's still here. If anyone's still here, probably not at this point. They probably left at the rubber bands. They can get away. They're using the power of RSS. They are, yeah. They have the stop button. That's part of the RSS 1.0 spec is the stop, delete, unsubscribe button. But yeah, if you have everyday or maybe not even everyday, just life items, I'll call her lifetime items. I don't know what's a good name for them. It's just things that will quite literally outlive you and be used by others. I'm fascinated. But yeah, lifetime items. I'm curious what people have or what they're using. Well, there you go. And because we're influencers now, not really. And we love a good hashtag. Should they tell us on Mastodon with hashtag lifetime items? Yes. We should, yes, we have to use the social Should it be plural or singular though? Like lifetime item or items Items I'm tempted to say items because there'll be Hopefully a few people Yeah, it only has to be one item You're right, but maybe chuck an S on the end You know, it doesn't matter, whatever,  just tell us what you like Hashtag Lifetime items Have a good hashtag