Poetry for All

Transcript for Episode 6: Jen Bervin, ÒNetsÓ

Joanne:	

Hello, IÕm Joanne Diaz, an English professor at Illinois Wesleyan University.Ê

Abram: 	

And IÕm Abram Van Engen, an English professor at Washington University in St. Louis.Ê

Joanne: 	

And this is Poetry for All.

Abram: 	

This podcast is for those who already love poetry and for those who know very little about it.Ê

Joanne:	

In this podcast, we read a poem, discuss it, learn from it, and then read it one more time.

Abram: 	

And today, weÕre going to take a close look actually a few short erasure poems from the artist Jen Bervin and her incredible book _Nets_. But before we do that, Joanne, can you just tell us a bit about who Jen Bervin is and give us some context for her work?

Joanne: 	

Yes, absolutely. I am so excited that weÕre talking about Jen Bervin. She works in every medium. She works in video, embroidery, books, maps, uh, one of her most famous projects is called ÒThe Dickinson CompositesÓ and what she did was, she was really concerned with the ways in which editors over the years have excised all of the various dashes and pluses and markings in Emily DickinsonÕs poetry, and she created these textiles that are huge. They fill the whole room, and she reinserts all of those dashes and pluses in a really beautiful way. If you take her work as a whole, what you start to see is that Jen Bervin is an artist who is interested in scraps and fragments. Bervin is interested in materials, in restoring what is lost, and broadly speaking, sheÕs really interested, not just in sound, but in silence. So thereÕs this great few lines by Emily Dickinson where she writes, ÒNothing is the force / That renovates the World.Ó I love that fragment, and it seems like a guiding principle for Jen Bervin. She is as interested in the nothing as she is in the something.Ê

Abram: 	

ThatÕs great. Yeah, and, um, one of the reasons we wanted to talk about her today is, in particular, because she has a book thatÕs about Dickinson, and she has a book, this book weÕre talking about today, which is about Shakespeare. And so, one of the things that Bervin is really interested in is in poetic traditions themselves and how they influence us, how they get remade, or renovated, from one generation to the next. And one of the things weÕve been doing with this podcast and want to do with this podcast, is try to trace out the way that poets are responding to poets who came before and traditions that they are engaged in. And, here, sheÕs very much doing that with Dickinson and Shakespeare and others. In fact, this is what she writes, uh, at the back of her book, _Nets_, about those poetic traditions. She says, ÒWhen we write poems, the history of poetry is with us, pre-inscribed in the white of the page. When we read or write poems, we do it with or against this palimpsest.Ó And I think the word palimpsest is really important there. ItÕs a word not a lot of people know, but itÕs a word that basically means Òwhat is left when you try to erase something and then write over it.Ó ItÕs actually a very ancient tradition. It goes back to a time when paper was scarce, and what remained was traces of what had been before. And so, literally, people would write over things that they could still see were there, and thatÕs the way sheÕs thinking of her own work as a poet. SheÕs writing overtop of the kinds of things that are already written there on the page. So this brings up this book _Nets_ that weÕre talking about today. And really, itÕs a book of erasure. Can you talk to us a little bit about what erasure is?

Joanne: 	

Yes. Erasure is a fairly straightforward poetic procedure. It requires that the poet erase words on a page from any text until a poem emerges from the words that remain. In the past couple of decades in particular, it's become a very, very popular mode of poetic expression, and poets use it in all kinds of different ways. Uh, Mary Ruefle uses Wite-Out in her book, _A Little White Shadow_, which is full of erasures. There are some poets who use pure, black marks as a form of redaction and removal. There are some poets that erase whatever they donÕt use so that all that is left is their text, and, in the case of Jen Bervin, what sheÕs providing us is this tiny book called _Nets_ where she reproduces ShakespeareÕs entire sonnet in very light, very faint grayscale. So you can still read it, itÕs still possible to read it, but it feels like a phantom or a ghost in the background. And then her poems are in black ink. And, thereÕs also a political valence to erasure poetry. Solmaz Sharif has a wonderful essay about how erasure poetry is a reminder of erasure and redaction as a tool of state surveillance, and she strongly encourages poets to think about the political implications of erasure poetry, and many of the poems in Jen Bervins book, _Nets_, do attend to those politics.Ê

Abram: 	

So, letÕs take a look by starting, perhaps, with ÒSonnet 18,Ó which we actually did an episode on just two weeks ago and think about the way that it gets remade through Jen BervinÕs erasure. Should I, perhaps, read Shakespeare's ÒSonnet 18Ó to remind us of what is there, and then you can perhaps read, BervinÕs erasure of it?

Joanne: 	

Yes, absolutely.Ê

Abram: 	

Alright. So here is ShakespeareÕs ÒSonnet 18.ÓÊ

Shall I compare thee to a summerÕs day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summerÕs lease hath all too short a date;
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or natureÕs changing course untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owÕst;
Nor shall death brag thou wanderÕst in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growÕst:
ÊÊÊSo long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
ÊÊÊSo long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

Joanne: 	

And hereÕs Jen BervinÕs erasure of ShakespeareÕs ÒSonnet 18.ÓÊ










                          thou wanderÕst          shade
     in        lines to time 


Oh my god, thatÕs so good. IÕm going to read it again. Okay! Uh, itÕs so short. Why not read it several times? ItÕs wonderful!Ê









                          thou wanderÕst          shade
     in        lines to time 

Abram: 	

So, what do you see her doing there? I mean, so weÕve got fourteen lines of lots of words in Shakespeare and now we have a poem of eight words. What do you love so much about this erasure?Ê

Joanne: 	

What I notice immediately is how authoritative and confident the poetic voice is in ShakespeareÕs ÒSonnet 18.Ó So when I heard you read it aloud, I really believed in the authority of those lines. The sense that this is a poetic speaker that knows exactly how to describe the beauty of this object of desire and that this beauty shall never fade because it will live in the lines of the poem. But, then the erasure says, Òthou wanderÕst in...shade / in...lines to time.Ó So thereÕs a wandering here. That doesn't suggest confidence. That doesn't suggest to me that there is a clear, uh, map on how to get to immortality, uh, and wandering in shade, itÕs...something is obscured; itÕs dark; itÕs difficult to find oneÕs way. How do you read those lines?Ê

Abram: 	

Yeah, I mean, in one way, I read it as an incredible intensifying of what Shakespeare is really concerned about in this poem and, in fact, in so many of these sonnets which is, time is coming for them; itÕs gonna ravage them...

Joanne: 	

Mhh.

Abram: 	

...and Shakespeare is desperate to find an escape from that, and at the beginning here, heÕs quite pompous and arrogant and even overconfident about his ability to escape timeÕs ravages. He says, ÒYou know what? Time is coming for us, coming for us all, but donÕt worry about it Ôcause I got this. IÕm going to immortalize you in my verse.Ó And what Jen Bervin does is really draw out the worry, the heart...

Joanne:	

Yes.

Abram: 	

...of concern and anxiety that lies behind that, and she, in a certain sense, turns it into a philosophical principle. She almost muses on it. It becomes a much more sort of universalizing sense of the fact that this ÒthouÓ really represents each of us wandering in shade, uh, in lines to time, and in all of Shakespeare's attitude melts away, and what she really does is draw out the anxiety behind the attitude. And she shows him to be basically overcompensating for what heÕs really afraid of.Ê

Joanne: 	

That's beautifully put. I canÕt help but think as I hear you talking about the fact that Jen Bervin is not following any of the formal constraints of the sonnet here. SheÕs not concerned about the rhymed endings. She's not concerned about the fourteen lines, the iambic pentameter, the volta, none of that. SheÕs really stripping it way, way down to its barest elements. Even so, sheÕs still engaging in what the critic Susan Wolfson has called Òsonnet thought.Ó ItÕs still a brief epigrammatic, memorable, memorizable sentiment that just shatters me as a reader personally, right. Its brevity is what makes it so powerful in the way in which it corresponds with ShakespeareÕs poem. So even if itÕs not a sonnet per se, I still feel like itÕs of a kind in the way that it, it utters itself with brevity and with intensity.

Abram: 	

Yeah, and you know, what makes me think of is so...so sometimes we understand Shakespeare's sonnets by writing more and more and more and more about them. So we have books of commentaries on Shakespeare's sonnets, and theyÕre just filled with more text, and itÕs almost as though the more text we add to explain Shakespeare's sonnets, the more weÕll understand them. And, in this incredible short erasure poem of Jen Bervin, she boils it all down and says, ÒYou want to understand this poem? Here, let me give you instead of more and more and more words, let me give you less and less and less.Ó

Joanne: 	

Yes.

Abram: 	

It really comes down to these eight words...

Joanne: 	

Yep.

Abram: 	

...and this basic premise, this basic anxiety, this basic thought. And so it's almostÊ
as though she's doing a commentary on the poem with the poem that sheÕs writing out of it. And, to me, that's incredible. I mean, IÕve never seen Shakespeare's sonnets the way I see them now after reading this book which I find really remarkable.

Joanne: 	

Yeah, me too. Should we look at another one?Ê

Abram: 	

Yeah, so I think one of the things I understand is, sometimes what sheÕs doing is precisely that: intensifying the meaning of these sonnets by finding a poem within them. Sometimes I think what sheÕs doing is actually reversing what the sonnet is saying or challenging it or bringing a different voice to bear on it. And I think ÒSonnet 63Ó is a really good example of that. So should we, should we take a look at that one?

Joanne: 	

Yeah, absolutely.

Abram: 	

Here is ÒSonnet 63Ó by Shakespeare.

Against my love shall be, as I am now,
With TimeÕs injurious hand crushed and oÕerworn;
When hours have drained his blood and filled his brow
With lines and wrinkles; when his youthful morn
Hath traveled on to ageÕs steepy night,
And all those beauties whereof now heÕs king
Are vanishing, or vanished out of sight,
Stealing away the treasure of his spring;
For such a time do I now fortify
Against confounding ageÕs cruel knife,
That he shall never cut from memory
My sweet loveÕs beauty, though my loverÕs life.
ÊÊÊHis beauty shall in these black lines be seen,
ÊÊÊAnd they shall live, and he in them still green.

Joanne: 	

And here is Jen BervinÕs erasure.


                                         I am  





    vanishing or vanished 




ÊÊÊ                  in these black lines



Abram: 	

Hm.Ê

Joanne: 	

Oh my god.

Abram: 	

ItÕs so good!

Joanne: 	

I canÕt get enough of it! I love it! I love you, Jen Bervin! I love you!

Abram: 	

[Laughing] Alright! So, so, for those who are not yet moved by how good that is...

[Both laughing]

LetÕs, letÕs, letÕs break it down. LetÕs talk about why, why that kills us when we read that. ÒI am / vanishing, or vanished / in these black lines.Ó

Joanne: 	

Mhhm.

Abram: 	

What do you notice her doing here? What do you see?Ê

Joanne: 	

I love this on so many levels. The first level in which I love it is its simplicity. In that ÒI,Ó the poetic speaker ÒI Ò in this erasure could be that, uh, object of desire in Shakespeare's poem. We finally have a chance in Jen BervinÕs erasure to hear the young man speak, right?Ê

Abram: 	

Yes.Ê

Joanne: 	

And to say ÒI am / vanishing, or vanished / in these black linesÓ suggests that even though these poems are all about the beloved, uh, they seem to be more about ShakespeareÕs poetic speaker than about the beloved. ThereÕs a vanishing act thatÕs happening here where we, we never quite get that object of desire within our grasp as readers. And she's really foregrounding that. The other reason I love it is because we have to remember that Jen Bervin is a woman writer! SheÕs a woman artist. SheÕs very concerned with feminist issues, and I wonder if thereÕs a doubleness to that ÒIÓ? ÒI,Ó the poetic speaker of this erasure in the twenty-first century, Òam / vanishing, or vanished / in these black lines.Ó Maybe the process of erasure is vanishing the contemporary poet. Maybe the sonnet tradition that is so male centered vanishes the female poet. Do you know what IÕm saying? So, I read a doubleness to this erasure that I love quite a lot.

Abram: 	

Yeah, and you know, I mean, thereÕs so many applications of this. So even just, IÕm an early Americanist by, you know, training and research; itÕs what I study and do when IÕm not doing poetry. And so much of early American literature is about ÒHow do you read for the voices that are not there?Ó For example, how do you get a Native American perspective from European texts, right? And here is a poetic process that, in a certain sense, finds a voice within the sonnet that Shakespeare has written that isnÕt there. She gives voice to the beloved to speak back, finally, to Shakespeare. We talked in the episode on Shakespeare, for example, about how he says heÕs going to immortalize the beauty of this beloved, but we never actually know what the beloved looks like.

Joanne: 	

Mhh.

Abram: 	

What we really immortalize in all of these sonnets is Shakespeare himself. And hereÕs a moment for Jen Bervin to say, ÒJust hold on a second. You and all of your acts of wondrous, remarkable poetry, ÒI am vanishing in the mists of this. IÕm vanishing in your black lines.Ó

Joanne: 	

Yeah. ThatÕs great.Ê

Abram: 	

So, should we look at one more to see what else she can accomplish with all of these erasures?

Joanne: 	

Abram, I love Jen Bervin so hard that I wish this whole podcast were about her poems!

Abram: 	

[Laughing]

Joanne:	

I mean, I just love it! I'm having so much fun. Yes, letÕs look at ÒSonnet 64.Ó

Abram: 	

Alright. So in ÒSonnet 64,Ó we get a very different sense of how erasure can remake poetic traditions and the sonnets of Shakespeare. So IÕll again read Shakespeare's sonnet and you read Bervin's erasure. HereÕs ShakespeareÕs ÒSonnet 64.Ó

When I have seen by Time's fell hand defac'd
The rich proud cost of outworn buried age;
When sometime lofty towers I see down-ras'd
And brass eternal slave to mortal rage;
When I have seen the hungry ocean gain
Advantage on the kingdom of the shore,
And the firm soil win of the wat'ry main,
Increasing store with loss and loss with store;
When I have seen such interchange of state,
Or state itself confounded to decay;
Ruin hath taught me thus to ruminate,
That Time will come and take my love away.
ÊÊÊThis thought is as a death, which cannot choose
ÊÊÊBut weep to have that which it fears to lose.

Joanne: 	

HereÕs the erasure by Jen Bervin.Ê




     I have seen 

                                  towers    down-razed




                                  loss     loss 






Abram: 	

Hm. When you read that, itÕs impossible not to think of 9/11.

Joanne: 	

ThatÕs right.

Abram: 	

Right. ÒI have seen / towers...down-razed / loss...loss.Ó She has found the words to speak to this in one of Shakespeare's poems. But, of course, for Shakespeare, what the real concern is, is that death is approaching for the beloved, and Bervin steps basic and says, ÒWait a second. ThereÕs a bigger context here.Ó Uh, there's a bigger loss here.

Joanne	

Well, and this is that Òsonnet thoughtÓ again that Susan Wolfson described where itÕs still, she's still engaging with the tradition, because look at what she is able to condense. ÒI have seen / towers...down-razed.Ó ThatÕs the image. ItÕs a very public catastrophe. ItÕs historical. ItÕs monumental in every way and then the insight. So she goes from sight to insight and insight is Òloss...loss.Ó ItÕs almost as if there are no other words.Ê

Abram: 	

Yeah, and that reminds me of what you were saying at the beginning about how sheÕs as interested in silence as she is in speech. And sometimes, silence is the more appropriate. And whatÕs interesting is, of course, poets are very much concerned about language and words. ItÕs the material that they use, so how do you draw out silences with words? And here, itÕs through the repetition of a very small word twice, and thatÕs it. So ÒI have seen / towers...down-razed / loss...loss.Ó

Joanne:	

And on, just when you read that, and when...I tried to do this when I read them as well...is I try to insert those pauses because thereÕs almost no punctuation in any of her erasures, and I think sheÕs really creating those pauses on purpose. TheyÕre almost like little cliffs. You kind of hang on them, and you kind of wait. SheÕs always inserting those silences to remind us to listen and to watch and I really...thatÕs one of the biggest lessons I take away from her poetry.Ê

Abram: 	

You know, we could probably talk about Jen Bervin for another hour, uh, but we should probably wrap this up, thank our listeners, and direct them simply to go find this book Nets by Ugly Duckling Presse, uh, which we want to thank for granting us permission to read these poems today. And also, for links to Solmaz SharifÕs important essay on erasure and other related materials, please do see our website poetryforall.fireside.fm.Ê

Joanne: 	

You can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.Ê

Abram: 	

Thank you for listening!