John: Hello, you are listening to Standing in the Fire, where Kris, John, and sometimes Garrett, the owners of Fireside.fm, talk about what it's like to be in the heat of SaaS growth. Every time I say that, I feel a little bit weird. Might need a little bit of workshopping on the heat of SaaS growth for some reason. That always gets me.

Kris: It was cool when you had nothing, but now it seems a little...

John: It was, yeah. Maybe that's the next thing we need to level up, and that's what I feel like. So, all right, we're going to start with our first thing today, which is Into the Fire. So it is what's been hard, messy, or stretching lately in business, creativity, or life. So it's the opposite of highlight reels.

Kris: Yeah.

John: Do you want to go first or do you have anything? Or I got a couple of things I feel like.

Kris: Go for it.

John: Yeah.

Kris: You know, as we talked about maybe two episodes ago, you know, we have this new space, Momentum, where we're recording in the studio. And you know I think it's really easy to get bogged down in just the details and the weeds of the day-to-day and not the big vision that we originally started with. And so now you know we're trying to think through how do we make the next, like the first quarter, the next three months, just like reinvigorating that vision and that excitement, versus always focusing it on, you know, is the... are the bathrooms stocked, is their food stocked. And which gives like, that's what people expect now, that's like table stakes.

John: We are getting a little low in toilet paper over there. I did notice this morning just when I went in.

Kris: So, and so you know and how to like just do more surprise and delight but also just like get that grandiose vision executing. And so that's been I would say definitely stressful of feeling have we gone by too many weeks and not just refocused on those big goals.

John: Yeah, that makes sense. And one of the things you're doing with that I saw is Jesse Itzler's big calendar up there. We just looked at it, looks really cool.

Kris: I, you know, I've seen the ads for it for a number of years and I was like, like how do you know, we were getting stuck again and how do we execute so many events next year. So we, with this quarter we spent like testing things out and now it was pretty haphazard. And so how do we switch from that to being very intentional about what we're doing. And I was like, I like, because like I have it in my head and how do we visualize it? And I thought we could get that calendar. We did. And so far we've had two days. But trying to just say like, okay, if we want to have two events a week or three events a week, how do we make sure that happens? And I think it's be real cool for also people to walk by and see it in the kind of space that we're in, of that things are happening.

John: Yeah. So it's going to go up on the window next.

Kris: I think so. Yeah.

John: That's awesome. I like it. I think for myself, what's been hard, messy or stretching? Honestly, it's just busy, like December is very busy. So it is for everybody, I feel like. But like, you know, there's just like we had this Wednesday was the only night in December. Like I think we had one other night that there was nothing planned between like the first and like, you know, Kristmas day or the day, the week of Kristmas and stuff. So just like every night there's like, oh, I'm coaching basketball. So there's like a lot of that. And then, you know, all the stuff during the day as well. So that's been like a little bit crazy. I would say the most stretching thing from like a business perspective is Box Out leveled up their booth.

Kris: Yeah, I saw that.

John: Yeah, and I mean, when I saw the price tag, I definitely stretched a little bit. But, you know, we had NADC and IAAA, like a big conference for high schools and stuff like that last, I would say, this week, actually. So it was like Sunday, Monday, Saturday, a little bit. And all the word on the street was went really good. We looked professional. I think you know some people were kind of surprised and blown away. Like a lot of these conferences have the same vendors at every one and I was told like several of those vendors came up and were like, you guys look so much better.

Kris: So well, I just remember you know maybe this was six, seven years ago you had one little booth with...

John: Yeah, a backdrop that was kind of ripped.

Kris: Yeah, they're like, hey, we're still doing it.

John: And then we scrappy...

Kris: Yeah, we went to like version two that had you know a couple tables and two backdrops, and went with that for a number of years. And now you guys are just like pros.

John: Yeah, yeah. We, it felt like a fortune. It was a big investment but I think it'll pay off. And it's kind of thing like the cool thing is now you know, and I don't even know companies like this exist. I think that's what kind of blows me away is like all the different businesses that exist. And so we use this local company. They put together the whole thing. They do a quote. We went back and forth with them. And part of their quote is like storage. Like they keep it for you. Because I was like, are we going to put it at one of our houses? Or like, you know, it's not small.

Kris: Right.

John: And then what's cool is they will actually ship it as well. So, you know, before it was like you would ship it or then William was figuring out how to ship it. And it's a pain every time. And you got to get like a bunch of quotes. And do you use the vendor? Do you risk it with FedEx?

Kris: Right.

John: Don't risk it with FedEx. We just did that for some cups, and they're somewhere in the United States, I hope.

Kris: They never got there?

John: They never got there, number one. And number two, they have no idea where they are.

Kris: Interesting.

John: Yeah, they're just gone.

Kris: I will say that we also shipped you guys some shirts, and we had some issues with some of those boxes getting there. We used FedEx for that, too.

John: Oh, really?

Kris: Yeah, I think they all actually made it.

John: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just kind of - I think that was a really interesting thing for me because it was like, okay, we're going to invest in like looking nicer, which is like, I mean, you can look at me. I'm in jeans or shorts and a sweatshirt hat. The hat's dirty. Like I, I should probably take my, you know, our own business advice, but like generally I'm like, I don't care what we look like. I care like what our product is, what our messaging is, like those kinds of things. So I think to actually like take a step and be kind of a real company and try to look nice at the conference, that was it was actually it was a little bit of a stretch. It wasn't hard or messy but yeah.

Kris: That's cool. But yeah, it was fun. I'm glad we did it. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Anything else messy, stretching?

John: Ah, messy, stretching. You got a new person at the print shop.

Kris: We do. A new person. Awesome.

John: I would say when you get a new hire and hiring people, I think we've talked about it before of just like it's a very tedious and for people of small businesses, it's just like a little bit more challenging. I think for people of larger companies who are used to it and doing it like every month because, you know, you post the jobs, you get a bunch of resumes. You're not sure if any of them are any good and you spend so much time talking to them. And I'm not good at just like cutting it off after 10 minutes if I think it's not a good fit. But, but I have, I would say learned that getting a referral like makes it so much easier. So we were struggling for a while because we didn't have anyone in there. And, you know, we posted this job a couple of times and not spending enough time interviewing folks and then just happened to end. Someone became available. They applied. I chatted with them. And like the first time I chatted, I was like, oh, cool. Like you can get us from where we are to where we want to be. And so that's definitely, I would say, de-stressed myself up there over the last couple weeks.

Kris: How many - do you remember offhand how many interviews you had to do?

John: Well, how many resumes? Yeah, I would say - well, and again, for a person who's hiring, 10 is probably not a lot. But for someone who's a business owner -

Kris: It's 10 hours. That's so long.

John: And then the more you're doing that, the more you're actually working in the business because you don't have someone there. And I think you spend so much time thinking about it.

Kris: How many hours do you add onto it that you just like -

John: Lay in bed.

Kris: Yeah, we're analyzing like, and just trying to figure out like that you wanted someone who could help grow the business, not just like be someone who is gonna like keep it where it's at. And I think we finally have that and I'm super excited.

John: Awesome. Nice.

John: Okay, now we're going to do, again, we're keeping with our fire-themed segments from last time. Thank you, ChatGPT. We're going to go ahead and Defend the Flames. So this one is one recommendation. So just one, just one, like, book, tool, video, idea, person that's been inspiring us. I will let you think because I know mine, like the back of my hand.

Kris: Okay, go ahead.

John: Because I have not shut up about it. I'm sorry for anyone that's been around me for the last, I don't know, let's say Sunday, so six days. I switched to Claude Supermax.

Kris: Okay.

John: And also to, so Claude has several models. And so each of the models is skilled in different ways. And as you go up the stack, they cost more per use.

Kris: And just for folks who remember, what is Claude?

John: Okay, so Claude is LLM. It's AI. So it's a way to, you know, chat, code, things like that, but all through Anthropic is the company, Claude is their product, and then they have, you know, kind of models inside that are tuned for different stuff.

Kris: So if I was, you know, instead of using ChatGPT to just like rewrite my emails, you're using Claude to like help you write code.

John: Yes. Got it. Yeah, yeah. And I've actually switched, I would say like, so when I did the AI presentation here, maybe like a week, a couple, two weeks ago, I was like all in on ChatGPT and I was using Claude Code for like code. But now I've actually, I'm just using Claude for everything. Like I've started going to Claude first. It made it onto my phone home screen. And so that I think is the thing that has been crazy because they have Sonnet, which doesn't really matter the names and stuff like that. But they have their like lower model. It's not lower, but it's a great model. But then they have their like Opus, which is like their thinking, you know, and it will take longer for responses, but they should be more accurate and better and stuff like that. So last week I switched to Opus on stuff, which it costs, I think, like for a simple example, it's like five times as much. So, OK, so if it would be one token, it'd be five tokens. It doesn't matter what token is, but like it's five times more expensive. And it's incredible. Like, I mean, I was like just pasting GitHub issues in and it's solving them and, you know, doing all the stuff. It's really incredible. So I use it on, you know, some stuff we'll talk about later as well. But the biggest, I think the biggest recommendation on that is like now I can do, you know, I basically have unlimited of their best thing that can write code. And so I can just have, you know, three, four terminals up and just going between them. And when one gets paused, I get it going. And it sounds a little bit like, you know, like a chihuahua on crack or whatever, but it's really not. And I'm starting to kind of proselytize it to other people.

Kris: That was a perfect chance to use proselytize, this like fancy word that I learned not too long ago.

John: But I'm starting to get other people doing it too. And I'm finding it's a lot easier to move forward, you know, three, four things at once, which is what my life is right now. I work on three or four applications at the same time.

Kris: You're almost like a day trader of coding.

John: I look like a day trader, yeah. And actually, I was talking to Garrett, and Garrett was like, he's like, yeah, I think I'm going to start doing this. So Garrett typically does two weeks on Box Out, two weeks on Fireside, and maybe Flipper. And so he goes solidly back and forth, and I keep talking about how crazy this is. And so next week, he's going to try doing all of them at once. And he's been doing it a little bit this week, and he's like, it's insane. He's like, I feel like I'm making so much progress. Because then it's like you can upgrade Ruby on all the apps at once instead of one at a time. You can upgrade Rails on all the apps at once. And you're in the same mindset and focus, so you can move them all kind of forward. He was like, his first reaction was, I need another monitor. He's like, yeah. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I'm also feeling that where you just want a little bit sitting over. So that's my one recommendation. I will stop or I will keep fanning that flame for a long time.

Kris: We could have a whole different episode specifically on some of that. I think, you know, I've heard you do some cool stuff where we don't have to go into it now, but you were, you built some code while driving into work the other day itself.

John: That might have happened. It might have happened. Yeah, I got. So I. Yeah. Yeah.

Kris: And that'd be just fascinating. Like, yeah, how on a more technical side later, you know, how, what you're prompting to do to get the result you want.

John: Yeah. With any AI model, that's always a challenge of how do you not just saying, you know, a very simple prompt and actually giving it enough information in context to get back what you're on. In some sense, I feel like I prompt like a caveman. But then in others, you know, the level definitely increases. But, yeah, it's very interesting.

Kris: Yeah. Nice.

Kris: The thing I was thinking of, and I actually had a different one, but it's going to be the same word that you had said. So there's this tool, and I'm pretty sure I haven't talked about it, called Opus.

John: Oh, right. Yes. We've talked about it on this podcast.

Kris: And I was using it last week to edit one of our episodes. And it is a tool that takes landscape video and creates clips for vertical posting.

John: Oh, nice.

Kris: And so it analyzes all the text. And I would say it's very good. You can edit it a little bit or you should edit it a little bit. But it will provide the text over the video clips. It will switch between the two of us depending on who's talking and it will make it ready to post on like Instagram or anything more the vertical. And it gives you like a score of how viral they think it would be based on what's going on in the conversation. And the last one, you know, we had 40 minutes or maybe it was even 20 minutes and it spit out, you know, 20 different little segments that we could post.

John: Yeah, and you, it has the overlays of text, and you can go in and edit it because it will transcribe every single thing we say and if it's not exactly what you want.

Kris: But I just feel like it's, someone told us about it and I, you know, there's a pro version of it. I think it's 20 bucks a month to get extra credit. But it just makes that so much faster for editing. And I just think it's super cool.

John: Nice. That's awesome. All right, cool.

John: Next up is Embers. We got some good embers today. So these are small updates, little wins, little ideas. Do you want to start with Speaker Deck?

Kris: Yeah. So we've been, man, it's probably been an anniversary. It's been over a year. I looked at the git commits, it's been over a year.

John: Yeah.

Kris: So Speaker Deck is, you know, one of our companies that we post the presentations for online. And about a year ago we wanted to start having clickable links within the PDF uploads. And we tried to do it before the end of the year, and then it got stalled out. Then we were working on other things, and we just got through some roadblocks that made it just very time consuming to finish that feature. And I don't know, I feel like last week you're like, hey, I got a little bit of time to have me look at something. And we thought we should look at links. And this is my perception from the outside. We haven't even, so I don't know if this is what happened or not, but I feel like what you were doing with Claude helped figure out how to fix our problems so much quicker. And a year ago, you probably couldn't have done it that quick or even, like you said, it took you like 30 minutes of fussing with and 30 minutes of like fixing. And we put it out yesterday. So people have been wanting that, asking for it. And so that's, I think, just one of these areas where AI to help do coding dramatically has fixed some of those roadblocks that just stumped us for way too long.

John: Yeah. And I think specifically, you know, that was with the front end design tool. So like Eric had made like, well, there was a first version of it that like kind of overlaid the links. And then but when you're clicking back and forth, you know, you don't want a link to all of a sudden appear and then you click it and then you go, like everyone's done that on Instagram or like whatever. I'm sure TikTok does it, you know, where you're like swipe, you're hitting right to go to the next one. And they put the link right there because they know. And then you click the link and you're like, gah. So, you know, we wanted to avoid that. Yeah. And so that's like one thing. And then additionally, sometimes people copy and paste junk and it has a link. They don't even realize it. Now there's a hundred of the same link on it. Takes up the whole page. It's annoying. So there was a bunch of like little things like that. And then some of the point detection and all that kind of stuff was weird.

And it was kind of nuts because I was looking at it and I was like, okay, well you were like, let's just ship it, you know, like this. And I'm like, yes, like I agree, let's just get it out, it's been a year. There's a small amount of things that I need to do. Yeah, but I think just like, it's not even that, like Claude could have done this in the last six months. Okay. Like it could have gotten that branch shipped. But like mentally I hadn't reached, I, it was like Neo and the Matrix, you know, and they're like, Mikey likes it. I hadn't hit the point mentally where I had expanded to the fact that I realized I could dodge bullets.

Kris: Right, right.

John: And then in the last seven days, maybe 10 days, I realized I can dodge bullets. And I was like, you know what? I'm not doing enough things at once. I need more stuff to see what I - because you can push it forward. It can slap this code out. You don't have to even test to see if it works, really. You just get going, get the code out, and you can do that on a bunch of them. And then you can kind of slow down and zoom into one product or one project and then say, did all this, you know, AI stuff that got created, is it slop or is it good? And how do I shape it from one to the other?

And so that's what I did on that one. So I used a front end design thing because I thought, you know what? We've got it working with the old one with Claude in like 30 minutes. I had it fixed up all the issues that were so that it would at least render and stuff like that. But then I was like, well, this front end design tool, I've been using it. And I was like, what if I just told it to just totally reimagine it? And I was like, you know, here are my like goals. Like if there's lots of links, I want to handle it. You know that I want to handle like, you know, possibly overlapping. I don't want somebody to like clicking next to like all of a sudden go to a random page. And so it started like it threw out like a bunch. And I was like, just plan, just make like some ideas from a planning standpoint of like, what are some options for us?

Kris: Right.

John: So I went through that and it was like, here's some options. And I was like, I like this option with that on the side and that kind of stuff. And then I was like, I got a clean git state so I'm just gonna like let it roll. So I let it roll. And then it was like, worst case scenario I don't like it. I just burned the credits. I pay that money. And not really because I have Supermax. So I'm like, right, this point it doesn't cost me anything to throw this idea out. And it came up with this idea, you know, of like click the link to go into like active link mode. And then, you know, put all the, then all those highlights show up of where the links are. And then it was like, well, when you click on it, have it like bring up a thing that's like you can open it. And I was like, oh, that'd be cool, but if you could also just copy it, right. So it made all that work. And then Steve just happened to walk in right then and I was like, hey, what do you think about this? And he was like, well, I would do it this way and this way and this. I literally just hit record and like let him speak. And then at the end I like tweaked a couple things, hit enter, and Claude did it all. And it looks fantastic.

Kris: Yeah. So I'll say that's something that I still don't understand. And I'll say I should have came to my AI talk. Yeah. A guy named Philip, who might be in the room sometimes, says, is like, hey, let me just record what you're saying, so that he, because I'm trying to explain to him something that I want done. Yeah. And then like he goes and like does it. But I guess I've never used the voice record feature of something like that to more contextualize and get the thing down. I'm usually listening to a thing and then typing it in myself to figure out, you know, what it should do.

John: Yeah. But again, it's like typing, even if you're an amazing typer, it's like 90 words a minute is like your peak. Yeah. You know, and my average, you know, speaking is like 150 to 200 right now. Like it's just so much faster. The only thing that's weird is like, you know, you have backspace, but like you don't quite have backspace when you're speaking. So that's a little bit more difficult.

Kris: Right, right.

John: But Whisper Flow, a tool that I use, you know, we'll kind of do a little bit of that jazz. But yeah, that Speaker Deck link thing was awesome.

Kris: Yeah.

John: For me, I think probably the biggest things, I pushed a whole bunch of things forward. So I have like page view tracking almost working on Box Out pages. So that's really close. Using new technology and doing a bunch of stuff that I haven't done before. The cool thing is now I can take that and I can go to Claude and I can be like, okay, we're on Speaker Deck again. We want to add page view tracking here. Let's take the stuff I did over here and just port it to this. And so it doesn't just speed up that initial time. It speeds up when you do this because a lot of the software stuff ends up being the same thing on every product. You have notifications. You have inboxes. You have messages. You have a lot of stuff that's similar.

Kris: I don't mean to interrupt. It made me think of analytics. I'd be curious how can we get analytics done quicker.

John: That's what I've had. Now that, yeah. Super fast because I've already, I just, I literally built it in the last week on BoxOut. So I'm like, just build that in SpeakerDeck and it will, you know. But so I pushed that forward. Some other small updates. So we have this new feature called Expressions on Flipper. And it's just a really flexible way to say like, you know, let this person into the feature and not this person and that kind of stuff. And so it gives you, but you can change it kind of all once the app is already running instead of doing it like in code and then deploying the code and all that kind of jazz. And so the biggest problem is like it creates this data structure to store it. And then we have an audit log which says here's the changes. And showing this data structure in a succinct single line was like, it was brutal. And literally that's like almost one of the reasons it sat for a year, you know, maybe more than a year.

Kris: Jeez, yeah.

John: And because it was just like every time I thought about it, I'm like, I don't have a solution for this. And so then I, you know, it kind of go to the back of my mind. Then a month later, come back. And so I finally just went to Claude and I was like, here's my data structure. Here's all my stuff. Here's like all my thoughts. I just brain dumped everything on it. And I was like, what would you do? And it was like, what about this concise format? And I was like, why am I even doing my data structure in this big way? Maybe I should just use the concise format from the beginning. And I was like, write a thing to convert my like, you know, verbose one to this concise one. And so it did. And I was like, write a thing to diff these, you know, like if the keys stay the same but the values change, show that. You know, if the whole condition changes or the logic changes, show that. And it just did all that. So I got that all working and shipped for a new customer that's onboarding right now. And then I'm probably going to ship it to everybody real shortly as well.

And then, I mean, again, that wasn't the only - we're also working on episode duplication. And again, Claude Supermax going to town, use the front-end design skill again. And so that's been really useful as well. There's just like at this point, we've been talking about it a long time but we hope that some Fireside users will see some visual changes in both front end and admin. Very soon.

Kris: Very soon.

John: Yeah, we'll say very soon. Yeah, it's so close. I mean, we don't want to beat a dead horse or whatever but like it's so close. So there's just like I think some content stuff and some things like that and then we'll start seeing a lot of improvements. This is going to be a good year. I'm pretty excited about this year. So, yeah, so three, four things forward on like a whole bunch of different stuff.

Kris: Nice. All in like a week.

John: Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. While quitting at like 2 or 2:30 to actually coach, you know, fifth and sixth graders. And so, yeah, it's been a progress-filled week. I'm excited about it.

Kris: What else do you have? What other segments do we do with that?

John: Awesome. You know, we did Logs on a Fire, which is progress updates, and we kind of merged that together with the other ones. So, yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing for me over the last like two weeks since we recorded is just like this, you know, I feel like we have entered into this like new... Finally, my brain's expanding to say like, again, like the Neo and the Matrix thing, like that's been my overarching thought the last like two weeks is like...

The possibilities now are crazy, like right now, it's like if you just go and you get a whole bunch of stuff, you know, out there and done. And not like junky stuff, but good stuff out there. You know, now's the time because I do think this is going to get easier and easier for more people to do over time. And so it's like build those footholds now so that you have the customers, you have the distribution and all that stuff. And I even just think like thinking of the - I put together for us maybe - this was only a couple months ago, like a quick hit list of some for Fireside like future updates. I'm like, oh, like if we just did one of those every other week, could you do it with your new process?

Kris: That's what I've been thinking too. And just like get them, knock them out.

John: Yeah. I think similar, but in a different way of Speaker Deck, we have a lot of old feature ideas that we think would be interesting, like doing ads, like doing analytics. Like could some of those just like get whipped out like once a month?

Kris: Yep.

John: And yeah, that would be really cool. Yeah, that's my hope. My hope is I can figure out, I'm not trying to 10X or 100X or anything like that. I don't think of that. That seems intense, you know? But I think, you know, if I can 2 to 4X. And then I can show everybody around me that I'm working with how to also do 4X. Then it's like, oh, maybe there's some breathing room. We create some margin for what's a crazy idea that we could do. But again, the best thing is just the brainstorming and stuff like that. Just like anytime I get jammed on something, I just throw it in. And I literally just speak to it for a while. And then I'm like, just give me a bunch of ideas. And it just unblocks.

Kris: Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah. Nice.

Kris: Are you, uh, I know, yeah, I know your answer is no. Do you think of any goals for next year? Or is it more just...

John: Yeah. Oh yeah, it's that time of the year isn't it.

Kris: It's the end of the year. I know I really know how you think about that but I'm just curious. Is it less of there's a time stamp that makes me want to think about this but more of just like these things have been happening and so now I want to continue that differently than I was doing it before?

John: Yeah. You know, I look at like a mind shift change versus saying my goal is to knock out one feature every other week using this thing. Yeah. So I generally don't set, it's, you know, I think it's just being burned so much in the past by like, hey, give us a goal, give us a date, you know, and like that kind of stuff. So like I would say I don't set them on like, I don't attach times to them.

Kris: Right, right.

John: But I definitely have goals. And I think that's something I've accepted over the last little while is like, just because I don't set a time doesn't mean it's not a goal. Technically it's not a great goal because goals should have time, but I'm like, I don't want to, you know, force myself to act. Like, I'm not going to spend less time with my kids or my wife or my friends or something just because I set a random goal at the beginning of the year. But I will say I have goals. So my goals are basically a couple of things. So one is I want to learn how to 2 to 4X in a way that doesn't feel chaotic. And then I want to teach everyone on the Box Out team and, you know, everyone else that I'm working with who doesn't feel they're doing that, how to do it. You know, cause that's obviously going to be a huge thing for Box Out, Fireside, all of those. So that's my first goal. That's probably like the near term one. And then I have a lot of like little product things that are kind of like even more near term. And then my big goals are, I want to get to 10 million ARR on Box Out and I want to get to one on Flipper and one on Fireside. Those are my goals for those.

Kris: That's awesome.

John: Yeah, so we'll figure out how we get to those. But I think we're setting ourselves up good.

Kris: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about you?

Kris: Oh, man. Yeah, so I got one of those big calendars, not only for us here at Momentum, but also just me personally. And I think there's, you know, we did a lot of, we had a lot of good milestones this past 12 months of opening this space. Like that's the momentous. We also then opened a cocktail bar.

John: Yeah.

Kris: And I don't know that there's like that level, but I think now it's going from building to like, the word that came to mind was expanding, but I don't know if that's the right word, but.

John: Filling?

Kris: Yeah, like we need to fill, you know, we need to fill up this space. And, you know, we need to fill up more customers on any of the apps that we're using. And so I think it's, the goal would be to get out of the weeds on a lot of this and be more strategic on like growth versus, yeah, you know, just doing the day, survive in advance.

John: Yeah.

Kris: And then just taking time to rejuvenate. I know that's what everyone probably says all the time but I definitely did not do it last year. Canceled too many trips.

John: Yeah.

Kris: So I think it's, and it's not, I was, I heard to, I forget, I don't know if this is the NVIDIA guy or some other person, but we're talking about like, it's not, or it was Jesse, because I know I listen to him a lot. It's not about creating like work-life balance. Like it just, it's like work-life integration. So it's not that you need to like leave work away when you go do something, but it's when you're doing entrepreneurship type things or, you know, working for yourself, it's like, how do you do those fun things? But also like, if you need to take a call or do something to keep the business moving along, you shouldn't feel bad about that.

John: Sure.

Kris: So I think there's - I need more of the work-life integration, more of the life integration to it. So I'm - yeah, I'm going to try to hold myself accountable for that.

John: Nice. Yeah.

John: Yeah, so is there anything people should do? I mean, if they - if you're thinking, like, what's the best gift I could give this holiday season?

Kris: Yeah. I think it's a like or a comment, but even more importantly, a subscribe.

John: Yeah. Awesome. Sweet. That's the pod.

Kris: That's the pod. We'll see you next time.