[0:18] Hello welcome to teaching python my name is Sean Tibor I'm a teacher now I guess it's the end of my first year I recently began teaching but I've been a long time Kotor as well and I'm joining with my co-host.
That is is Kelly Kelly Schuster Fridays and you know I'm going about to say I'm almost,
almost a real coder I've been coding almost a year feeling a little bit more comfortable with codeine so if if you're going to be almost at the full-time teacher I'm an almost full-time Cota,
that sounds great will work joined by someone who's a lot of both we have Meg Ray with us from,
Cornell Tech we met her at Pike on this past your high Meg how are you how are you.

[0:58] Are doing well it's a it's a great afternoon here in sunny South Florida and now you're up in New York today right.

[1:06] Yes I am we just got a heat wave in it.

[1:09] Have such great excellent so Kelly and I met Meg at Pike on us in May of 2019,
Meg was the keynote speaker for the education Summit Meg about your history with python and teaching and computer science just to kind of give folks a background of,
who you are and where you're coming from a no problem,
strongly identify as a special education teacher I was working with adolescents especially.
With all sorts of disabilities but especially behavior and emotion disabilities.
And loving my job and at around the same time I started learning python on my own with my spouse he dragged me to a python Meetup in New York City I thought it would be really boring and that I was just teasing him,
okay look up one time see what you do sure I broke my phone my first program that evening I had a blast and I just.
Going back and using it as a study time and learning time.
Which app icon for the first time in 2014 and check the tutorial through the carpentry cut at the rest is history.
After that I really wanted to share it with my students and I wanted to start teaching it I found a school that had a.
Software engineering and game design program that was required for all 9th graders.

[2:37] Somehow I managed to get hired for the position it was my dream job and I ran with it and I was really building my skills and learning.
A lot of the content as I went and I ended up.
Redesigning that course incorporating python making the course more accessible for students with learning differences.
And then after that I got really excited about it I wanted more kids to be able to,
. Computer Science Education and so I started developing curriculum training in other teachers,
better enough but I'm still doing that's amazing I think that's one of the things that really gave us this warm fuzzy feeling inside was the fact that you were a teacher you didn't know how to code and you got into codeine.
And you weren't I'm a science teacher by default.

[3:28] And I guess they kind of coexist Science and Technology but for you to be a special ed teacher and 2 go into.
Python at the start codon I just think that's amazing and it in a great inspiration to all teachers out there,
anyone can do it if you if you want to do it absolutely yes and when I go into schools and they try to identify teachers absolutely Math and Science teachers are a great,
all teachers are great fit like you said but I always ask about the special ed teachers I do think there's a natural fit there that people don't realize because specialized teachers are.
We don't specialize in a certain subject area who specialize in Learning and Development how kids learn in a lot of computer science is about developing.
I don't know if we're going to go there but yet but maybe we can go there I think that's one of the big things is,
how do they learn learning how to learn and you hit that on the nail you know with a special education that ability to think about your learning and applying that to,
to how you learn how to code before we get too much further I'd love to cover Winds of the week before we get into the topic at hand,
because it's honestly is one of my favorite parts of the podcast every week,
so make sense your guess we're going to put you on the spot and make you go first and put the winner of the week is something good that's happened inside or outside the classroom that you want to share with with everyone.

[4:56] I've been piloting a Raspberry Pi in a box program to do curriculum and there's been a lot of bumps along the way because there's so many Majestics with Raspberry Pi,
and this week I with it a fifth grade.
Technology classroom where it was implemented with four different sections of 5th graders including 5th graders with disabilities and including emergent bilinguals and every single section.
Acquitted the light up a light and make it blank with python.
Not with scratch every single student was able to do that and it just they blew me away.

[5:36] That's such a huge win That's so exciting Sean I'm going to let you go I'm going to go laugh.
Well my winners is actually a small thing and you know maybe this is obvious rather teachers out there but I was struggling earlier in the week with,
a project that we're doing right now so we're coming to the end of the school year and the end of another quarter,
f r a teaching program and I usually keep the last two and a half weeks as time for a individual project for students so they work in teams of two but,
it's really a way for them to combine and apply a lot of the knowledge that they've acquired over the course of the quarter in a final project and its really by Design.
Open-ended so that students have an opportunity to be creative and be flexible only had all sorts of.
Great projects over there from little robots and color changing umbrellas to handbags to video games it's been really a lot of fun to put together,
I don't know if it's the end of the the year or this particular group of students but I was getting a lot of questions I was getting a lot of mr. Tibor how do I do this how do I do that.

[6:42] And I said okay.
We're going to stop this because I'm not the only source of information there's a wealth of information out there that you can use so from now on you get one question per day that you can ask.
And I'm and I'm being ruthless about it you know can I go to the bathroom that's your question here done and it's really served two purposes and it's been such a great thing to see.

[7:07] It's,
4 star students to look Beyond me as a source of information because I do not know everything so they're researching they're looking at Google they're fighting books they're asking each other they're they're going to other sources but the other thing it's forcing them to do,
is there able to make.
Directive statements in declarative statements instead of questions to get what they want and the process of restructuring their language into an alternate form other than a question is making them think about what they really want to understand,
and it seems like they're getting to be able to solve their own and use all their own problems in and answer their own questions just by that process of having to,
eliminate questions from their available language and I are going to make 3D printed questions so we can put in a fish jar in and we're going to start promoting the they have to use the 3D printed,
questions that's a great when I've seen it in action it's a it's a great little tidbit for any new teacher to use that so my one of the week is been interested,
I'm also doing a little learning,
as you go every quarter we want our Makerspace and we started our soldering unit and I tell them at the pass or fail your lights up or it doesn't so you have to get it right.

[8:21] And it's such a remarkable time because I teach in the process of skin scan and deep reading a pamphlet and there's no instruction given they have to read the entire instruction manual in order to make.
A ladybug with 8 LEDs and 12 resistors light up no codeine involved but it's just a great skill and to see the kids they get so intense,
and soldering and they they get into this Zone in this Pleasants Almost Boring for a teacher but Pleasant Zen zone of soldering and it's just a fun two days for us.

[8:54] So that's my one of the week always saw her in time so lots of good things going on, sounds like we're all having a good week so far so we're we're going to jump right in to some topics and just discuss
a couple of different things that have have come to us has questions that we had some things we wanted to chat over with you so I guessed it to practice this.
Meg you gave the keynote speech at the education Summit for for Pike on us this year one of the things that really struck Kelly and I was just,
how much you've accomplished in terms of the pedagogy of python write the the way that,
people learn at the way that students can access information and integrated into their own knowledge a lot of the lessons that you were sharing in terms of here's what the research is showing here's what the observation is providing,
was confirming a lot of the things that I kind of had to discover for myself the hard way,
this occurred during the course of my first year teaching into what we want to do is just start talking about that weirded this mention that you applied for the role and are the teaching position at the school with the 9th grade course in software engineering game design,
how did you get more into the research side of this in,
family right understand how students learn computer science and python specifically.

[10:12] Learning by trial and error Discovery as you were mentioning then I signed up for a postgraduate certificate at Pace University in Blended learning and teaching computer science.

[10:25] That's where I first started to look into the actual research and,
now a my rolleicord ltac I've actually had the opportunity to participate in educational research which I've loved and has been another learning curve for me and I've been the last few years I've been,
attending big sea witch,
special interest group and computer science education of the ACM and that's where all the education researchers who research computer science,
education go so I can't take credit for a lot of pedagogy because it's learning from that community and taking it in and seeing all the hardware,
it's been done in this area for decades now actually how did you immigrate that into your philosophy of teaching you know the interview that you had on Trinket,
was really great in terms of the philosophy that you express Kelly you had some thoughts on that one as well. Works I.

[11:31] Sorry I didn't lie we keep the stuff on the air just to give people Giggles so yet know I was reading that and I'm all about the pedagogy and the philosophy of education I think
together this year Sean has has also developed his own philosophy of education and you said something in this article about sitting with confusion.
And I don't know if you remember that but I was like what.
Holy going to use that again can you explain that sitting with confusion cuz we see it as computer science teachers I know everyone out there is going to go yeah can you explain that though.
Oh yeah so what I really meant is that I wanted.

[12:11] Not knowing to practice being uncomfortable and to gain experience of productive struggle which my students didn't always have the opportunity to do.

[12:23] At the time I was teaching in and very underfunded Public School in the South Bronx.
And I don't get me wrong I love public education and there are so many teachers and Educators doing great work in me schools.
But a lot of times the students aren't given the same opportunities that better funded districts are for learning so many of the students have been used to things like.

[12:52] Writing down guided notes word for word things like that so.

[12:58] Blessed we teaching them about having fun what you were talking about how to do research how to problem-solve.
I'm giving them a toolkit for that and then also explicitly teaching it out.
Perseverance and problem-solving and what that's like and normalizing it was really important in the class sort of naturally became.
Being the Freshman seminar College except for high school where they in addition to computer science.
The focus was on learning collaboration skills problem-solving skills all these different things that they needed for their other courses as well and till I serve independent.
It kind of came to that and later on when I had the opportunity to advise on the K-12 yes framework.
Just really the Foundation for Computer Science standards that are coming out in different states they codified that as.
The computer science practices in really recognized some of those skills as core to CS education.
I love that I'm actually in the middle of my summer reading on how to raise successful people and then the first 40-page is the author Esther.

[14:21] Lotus cake I don't know how to say her name I'm really Esther W she said something about the whole idea of,
changing this model this this dysfunctional thing that sometimes happen in classroom and I think we feel that as well even in in our independent school that kids are not.
Necessarily used to not having the answers they know that they can go find it.
And when they come into a place where they don't necessarily understand the vocabulary they don't speak the language they don't understand informational text when they come in here.
This is just a whole slew of happening in that City that those standards that we teach,
are not always there the computer science coding that people think it's actually just having to deal with life and and learning how to learn through life.

[15:13] Yes and some of the classrooms that I work is that are labeled Advanced or gifted are the ones where the students need these skills the most.

[15:22] Daiquiri with Eskimo,
yeah I agree I think we feel that too and I and I think if we get them we get them through it to a point it takes about our 6 weeks of of this this point for us,
where they have that struggle and then all the sudden these light bulbs start coming on in this feeling this good feeling and you reminded everyday from that six weeks on this is what it feels like to teach code
it's a good feeling when you see that that turn on with that confusion when they're comfortable with it being a product of the educational system right more so than I have been a teacher.
Two more time as a student ever has it have as a as a teacher one of the things that struck me I was always that student that could perform the calculations in math.
It's right or I could structure the paragraph the way the teacher taught you how to do it right so the concrete structured approach to,
producing an output with a name that came very naturally for me so I was labeled gifted for that and then I got to my first job out of college and I was given a project to do.
And I asked my my boss what do you what is it supposed to look like what am I supposed to do what do you want it to look like I'm thinking that he has the answer in his head this is what it should be,
and he said how the hell should I know like that's why I'm giving you the project I want you to figure it out and I'm here to help you figure it out with me he's like.

[16:45] But there's no there's no right answer here there's no.
Correct answer there is the one that you develop with us together and we will get comfortable with that half-baked idea that you come up with him will turn it into a fully baked idea,
and that that to me was such a difference,
turning point in my Outlook in my Approach was that the majority of life we don't have a correct answer that we're shooting for.
Were usually shooting for what's the best answer or the best solution to this problem could come from a range of solutions so that's one of things that I love about computer science now,
is that it's really what you make of it and how you create it,
and I'm seeing there are certainly a large number of our students that once they start to realize that that's a no possibility that that's another way to think about how to solve problems and how to create things it's not about the correct answer it's about,
the best solution are the most creative or some new idea or new approach they really start to light up and get excited about.

[17:49] This episode of teaching python is brought to you by you are listeners through patreon do you like to become a supporter like Thomas Eckert Brian hakan from the testing code podcast,
where Natasha some lanco you can help us out at patreon.com teaching python give a few bucks it really helps us out thanks back to the show.

[18:10] So question while we have the expert here for special special needs or special education two separate things always bilingualism and English as a second language Learners and special education.

[18:25] Do you do find there's a different way.

[18:29] That you approached teaching these two different groups of students or do you kind of do the same thing.
In emerging bilingual or English language learner education.
I tend to approach it similarly but I think there's probably distinct approaches students could benefit from.

[18:50] Just real quick for emergent bilingual students there's research.
Until about translanguaging and literate programming at CUNY and Columbia.

[19:03] It's very promising for special education I've done some research on approaches with a colleague client is real,
Computer Science Education there's a very strong history of constructivist learning,
we can read a lot of idealistic writing about open-ended problem-solving inquiry-based learning learning so how do we get students,
to be able to participate in that kind of flirting we don't want to do away with direct instruction.
Sometimes those are seen as mutually exclusive but they're not we start with that.
And then we scaffold the executive function skills needed for students to participate the Richer project-based.

[19:55] But ended running so recently supporting their ability to participate in it through the direct instruction and.
Executive function scaffold and then hopefully.

[20:08] Scaffolding those things get hauled away as they practice then they're starting to talk more about executive functioning skills and social emotional learning,
and I think a lot of schools May shy away from students with accommodations from taking computer science at its too much.

[20:30] And we keep saying no these kids these kids can do it.
This is that this is we can do this and then also with my kids being my kids are bilingual I often see them.
Not necessarily Doing Hard coating but they do take Codeine in in lower school grades and I find that they kind of,
pick it up quicker like a third language for them so I'm I was just I'm always interested to read more about that and see if,
if there's some sort of correlation through students and people who can speak multiple languages and whether they can go on to code more
and then it was even as more of a highlight when I saw the Charla that Pikkon was what such an amazing opportunity and how they were coding and,
you know you never really think about this there codeine in English and speaking in Spanish while and so it's just all this great interesting things that happen.
Yeah the concept of translanguaging is about technology being all of the students.
Language abilities in multiple languages visual gesture all different.

[21:34] Other language abilities in considering code to be one of those.
And leveraging the strength that's amazing I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about that as as the education system starts going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of computer science and coding I hope to see a lot more settings. Will keep us posted.
If you signed up for things we wanted to build on here was why computer science are what's unique about computer science and the content that we teach the,
yeah the way that we teach it that makes it so conducive to learning about learning is it because it's a newer profession is it because we're all bit of Misfits and computer science and we're always challenging the status quo,
are there things that you've seen or a research that say.
This is why computer science maybe more uniquely suited for learning about how we each learn,
they're not research back there just opinion it's just it's practical it's that computer science isn't tested yet we have more freedom.

[22:40] Teachers of computer science at the moment then say an English language arts teacher or a math teacher who.
You know it's really stressing about those seat S at the end of the year where has.
Pacific Theaters they have to hit the rcsd under its but a lot of times or more open as far as which ones to hit within a certain time.
So when is that.
The practicality of that freedom I guess this is kind of counterintuitive if you think about how computer science has sometimes been taught but if you look at it from the perspective of what industry is asking for in the skills.

[23:20] 21st century skills that are needed is actually a very collaborative it's actually very like.
There are entrepreneurial possibilities.
Things like that it's not just can you get this line of code right at least that's not what employers are saying that they want.

[23:41] I personally I don't believe that we're teaching computer science for the job market I I think we should teach her to every student regardless of what they want to do but I think that influences.
How it's taught for example that I started out I was like up I'm going to make this classroom more like a studio Workshop that I'm going to set it up.

[24:03] Set up the work spaces in the style of a Google workspace so that.
Students can collaborate and have more freedom to walk around to try things out so I know I was influenced by that and I think,
other teachers are as well so I'm looking around our classroom and saying yeah I think that was kind of what we're shooting for also know that ability to be flexible and collaborative and creative,
and I think that's something that may be surprising to a lot of people is just how Creative Computer Science can be.
That it really can leverage your imagination more than anything else when it's done you know when it's employed properly right it's the power of your mind so I,
can certainly relate to your second point about we are influenced heavily by these larger tech companies that are placing so much emphasis on creativity collaboration people skills,
and it's is shining through in a lot of classrooms I've seen around in terms of the of the spaces that we create for alerting.

[25:08] Also if you add in the maker movement and this idea of digital making I think that only enhances it a conversation with another parent earlier this week about makerspaces in this world,
so that way you know shop class from 30 years ago as of yet shop 2.0 right,
we made it digital we've added coating to a we've included more than woodworking or metal working now we're incorporating text Arts we're incorporating paint and art it's really,
you know very creative multi-disciplinary expression and computer science is a very vital part of that,
and that's one of the most fun things in our job I think is is the fact that we're making things everyday we're not learning about making we're actually making and that's a lot of fun.

[25:55] And speaking about making and projects I kind of want to shift gears I want to I want to dive into codesters is that okay we talked about codesters.
I really want to know more about I know that coasters is a is a coding platform for students I see if they know it has a a classroom page and a and a list of modules I guess that you can go through,
and you help to coat you out the design that the python course is that correct.

[26:28] So coasters is an ed-tech company in New York City they wanted to develop a learning platform for middle school students they've use python.
They have created in online.
Learning space where they're evil it's like scratch and that they're able to visually show that so they put in the python and then there's a visual representation right away is a library card.

[26:56] Build everything.

[26:58] JavaScript under the hood in order to achieve that and they wanted to transition students from blocks to text so the students can actually.
Select a block drag the block into the coding space and when they let go of the block it becomes a line of python.
It has been an editable Gordon Smith.
Yeah that company really a lot of emphasis on user-centered design and he went into classrooms he sent his Engineers into classrooms.
From the very start.

[27:32] Fantasy backrub teachers from the very start in would iterate based on their feedback this is why I was very excited to be involved with it because I haven't seen it.
Really great I have the opportunity to work on the creek elementary curriculum for then you know we have curriculum that.

[27:54] Game design oriented and then fundamentals of python and they go from like strings and integers all the way through classes and functions and all of that.
Then just I just came into the this afternoon before the before our meeting and I said to Sean I said.

[28:16] I know what I'm going to do next year I'm going to change it all around and I think that's one of the other things that we talked about a lot.
When we have our talks has the creek elem and what we feel is the best curriculum for how we teach python.
And I think as teachers we all have our own way of teaching but most the time we're giving either a book.
Or set of Standards or a set of objectives that we have to follow in from that we can backwards by Design and plan out,
are units as we go I think when you come into computer science you're given projects,
and they like your they want to create something to hide where do we go how do we teach you have any philosophy or advice for teachers on building a cricket Loom or giving them you know not disturb building a whole Kraken by themselves but you know just,
where they should go or how they should feel it out,
sure I mean I do think that's a big challenge that you touched on as teachers we are given these projects or we go to websites where it says oh there's all these education resources.
But what those resources are is a project.

[29:20] What I think people outside of Education don't understand is that that's not a curriculum or or a lesson or anything close to it.
And.
Especially for in-service teachers who are just learning to teach computer science they may not be equipped to take that project and like you said backwards planning make it into a unit that's standard.

[29:45] Like you said okay we've defined the problem I'm not sure that I have a great solution for it I think there's a lot more curriculum coming out with an understanding of this I think for teachers.
Starting with.
Maybe you do start with him or prepared or boxed curriculum but with the idea that you're not going to just put a computer in front of students.

[30:08] Say Okay follow the tutorial but even as you're learning how can you still be in charge of the classroom and learning how can you frame this.
Then how can you give them contacts.
How can you make sure that they're really achieving all the depth of knowledge levels and not just following and typing with her told to type how can you actively be involved.
And then as you gain experience but in yourself you were created maybe you have a project idea based on your experiences that you want to incorporate and just from that.
Canned curriculum and in the building on your ability and your agency as a teacher to make your own projects in Les.

[30:54] And I think that's great advice I think that's one of the things that Sean and I have done he came in with a lot of knowledge on on codeine and the way the complete project,
and I came in with this more of,
got to set the question and you have to have the objective what's your pedagogy and we kind of mashed it together I think we both found that we,
as computer science teacher have centered are teaching,
on skills and it sounds something similar to what you did we've kind of put everything else on the sidelines there strings there's variables there's functions their projects and there is microphone all that stuff.
But we're going to focus it on design challenges 20% Time Project how do you Google how do you ask the right question and just recently I started taking,
Michael Kennedy's 10 apps course I don't know you faking it and I just came in and I said.
Got it I know how I'm going to start my course next year I'm going to do the way that he defines his,
his at send so I think as we go along we keep mutating to try to find the best fit and it will be interesting the day that someone says here's your box of curriculum and you just open it up and Wallah everyone is.
That 21st century learner now be great one day about teaching computer science is that there is no.

[32:20] Gold standard curriculum yet right there are gold standard outcomes there things were shooting for Wii U know we are shooting for the 21st century skills,
but the approach that we took this year with creating a curriculum chassis right so it's like something that is are our foundation for all the wiring that we're doing this is the structure that holds it all together and then.
Exploring new ways to teach.
New lesson plans new projects new tactics new know little bits of of knowledge that we've acquired in that attack that,
has been a good approach and I'm lucky enough to have Kelly who knows how to structure the curriculum and provide that chassis and I can go do the,
what's a tragic magic with the immigration right I can go do the iterative approach to let's try this piece and see if we can improve it and make it better,
and if you don't have a Kelly you know the word where do you have that chassis made I think that's where there's the the resources,
become important where can you find established church on working fine standards that may not be perfect but it may be a good starting place that you can use to build your own teaching,
well your lessons your own plans your own projects and that such great advice to have something to start with but don't treat it as.

[33:39] The end of the dusty old Tome of here's what we're going to to learn from today.
If that teacher is learning the curriculum it it makes a difference just going on like a kind of cademy tutorial versus having,
a teacher that has some knowledge of pedagogy and education to guide you through that,
I think one things that is great about Python and great about ma teachers getting into python now as a as a language is that,
it is accessible right there's a lot of things you can do with it it's it's the full spectrum language for programming but you don't have to be the wise Guru for the your students that knows everything about python,
you just have to be the learner that's two steps ahead of the where they are right be that lead learn to the one who sings guiding everyone who sang in a come with me what's figure this out together.
And what I found in my experiences gives me the opportunity to role model look good learning practice is it gives me the opportunity to,
demonstrate how to deal with failure right over that didn't work let's try something else it gives it makes it more interesting and engaging for me because I'm always learning new things and I can share that enthusiasm for learning with my students.
So

[35:00] This whole area is such a great way and you don't have to pretend like you know it all in fact it's better to be vulnerable to be the Werner along with your students and guide them in.
So far this year has worked really well and it's amazing the amount of trust that students will place in you when they see that you don't know at all and that you're willing to work with him to figure it out.

[35:23] I think the python has to have a little warning label because I've been going around this entire year telling everyone know you need to Learn Python but you have to Learn Python,
it's totally a texting you have to learn pipe I don't know how to but I started off not thinking I was going to love it and now it,
becoming a session as many people at our school now Know About Us here's again and I hate to do this but we're short on time and it takes it'll take Shana while to edit if not,
I really want to know about your book I'm sure how can I delay shinzon a book.
Had my first baby and broke my first book in the same here. That is a huge huge accomplishment can crash,
better figure so-called code this game and I had the opportunity to take everything I've learned about teaching python.
In a project-based model and put that into a book that goes directly.
Hopefully two kids it's Friday just 10 to 14 and it's more like oh you have a supportive parent at home who's going to work through with you.
And 14 is like hey I haven't had any exposure to this tonight I might want to take an AP class or I just want to see what it's all about so it introduces kids.
The python through building a complete game.

[36:53] Pretty ambitious for the readers and for me along the way it introduces them at hits on a lot of the.
Science Concepts and standards because I wanted students not just to learn okay here's some lines of code and how you do this but to really help them understand.

[37:12] Swear.
What is happening when I type when I make my python file I signed the command line extremely for me it was confusing to learn,
give me a one-time to wrap my head around longer than I would like to admit and it's also been very elusive to teach so I've done a lot of thinking about how to introduce that to kids,
and that's all in there and then just using pygame to let them be creative and have this philosophy of.
Here's how you build it now don't be afraid to go break it and make it your own.

[37:48] My favorite part about your book actually because there are many game many books out there across a variety of languages that promise you that you can make your own computer game but I love the fact that the next thing you say is now go break it because.
It's not like we're breaking Priceless artifacts,
it's just code and if you break it like you'll learn more from breaking it and trying to figure out how it works then you will from making it in the first place and that's,
what really sets it apart and in my eyes in terms of,
the approach is that it makes it okay to mess with it to Tinker with it to take it apart and see how it works like an old toaster,
unplugged old toaster for 4 people,
but I really like that it was how did how did that can I break it idea come through when you were writing the book how did how did that come through as being so important,
because let's face it,
they're like I want to make a video game they wouldn't make Call of Duty like tomorrow.
It's not going to be that cool because they're just learning just like the first.

[39:00] No word that they write aren't going to be Shakespeare so I wanted to think about how can it be worth their while.
The be creative and engaging if they can't write Shakespeare yet I wanted to find a structure that would give them the opportunity and the freedom to do something that their own but to also be really guided tour,
it's not like to just figure it out I think that kind of almost goes on to that approach.

[39:29] With house scratch in MIT had set up their scratch where there was a lot of guided project sort of learning from someone.
And being able to hack hack someone else's code and just get in there we find a lot of the kids come in there and to our classroom and are elective class and they say.
I got this unity game how can I how can I make a game for for the VR and I start small let's get the ball rolling across the table for Designing something for the TV,
so we're really excited about that this aspect of your book.
Thank you what was what was the part that that was the most fun about writing a book I'm sure there were a lot of parts were not fun late at night,
writing debugging reviewing but what was the part that that you'll take away from this from the process of writing it that was the most memorable or most interesting,
lesson that you learn from it I think for me it was just to take all the years of teaching Python and all those iteration.
And refinements of how I teach it in a lot of the thinking about how to teach it and debating about how to teach it and.
Being able to take those Lessons Learned and distill it and they this is a whole different way than most people.

[40:51] Teach python or approach coding for new students a new Learners and to be able to put it into a tax and chair,
was really excited I didn't know it's coming out in August at least that's what Amazon's telling me is there any place where people can get it earlier or if they wanted to learn more about the book where should they go to find out more about it so yeah so they can go.

[41:16] On Amazon they can go to odds.com odb.org. Com code this game or just go to on. And it's there.
Are we will put that in the show notes for everyone to take a look at it,
I want to give you an opportunity to ask us questions if there was anything that that you were curious about,
to make this more conversational and not us just throwing questions at you conversation but is there anything that you'd like to know for mastering questions that you had for us so we could answer for you,
pink it's so unique and neat that you have this co-teaching model of somebody with their technology,
programming background at somebody with an education background it's like the dream I feel like so not very scalable I would love to hear how that came about and what you think of.

[42:12] As you've done it for a year now so I'll take this the story started before Sean.
We always try to stay on the the custom try to get in in front of the things with a creek than wise,
or with at least the movement of the rest of of the world.
And there was a lot of Investigation of rewriting our curriculums my previous teaching partner was leaving and I was teaching robotics,
and also helping in the classroom I'm a educational specialist at pushin teacher who designs curriculum and house with project-based learning and I do a lot of pbl unit with Mother teachers here.

[42:55] And my boss told me that I was going to teach my son,
and I looked at her and I said she's crazy I can't my phone and we searched a lot we had a lot of great candidates, and we saw Sean and the way that he was very passionate about his projects that he does at home.
He built a he still building and currently iterating and iterating and other dating his wife is probably upset but working on a pool heater sensor.

[43:23] Thermometer sensor Monitor and we he was just able to go with the flow that he had never talked before,
and he actually had his first teaching demo class during a lockdown scenario and he handled it so well was on it we didn't know it was going to happen and we just,
we just really appreciated his his ability to go with the flow and answer the question then and bring CO2 life.
And so it's been a great it's been a great year.

[43:54] I mean I mean for me I hadn't really considered being a teacher until a little over a year ago I had a career in it and marketing and I still do Consulting in that in that area,
my daughter started at Pinecrest two years ago now I had a very good friend of mine have been teaching for 30 plus years in early childhood education.
And she said to me she said you you have something special in terms of your ability to work with kids and help them understand.
What you're talking about even if it's something very complicated they seem to grasp it they seem to like the process of learning with you so that I think you'd be a very good teacher,
and she said I would highly recommend if you get a if there's a position open to look at teaching at your daughter's school see if there's an opportunity there,
because she's I think you'd be really good at it I think you'd love doing it and having maybe a tuition discount or something like that would also be would be nice.

[44:54] And so I looked into it and every step along the way everything seems to fall in place they were looking for.
You know people with a computer science background they were looking for a technologist they wanted and valued my outside experience because I can bring some perspective that that not many other people had or we're going to share it with middle schoolers,
so I came in and it was terrifying right the first day when when you're teaching a class and it's and you've got your lesson and,
I'm sure you know t-shirt remember this by.
As a as an established professional to be staring down a room of 6th and 8th graders and they're all looking to me to teach them was a little intimidating at first.
But what I found along the way over the course of this year is that it's fun it is a fun thing to do it is fulfilling you can build relationships with the students that helps them grow and develop.
As people and as Learners and to see that kind of growth happen in such a short amount of time in a space of weeks is just incredible and I don't think people really understand,
everything that goes into the art and craft of teaching.

[46:06] I also don't think they realize how amazing it is to watch students grow and develop to be able to see that happen before your eyes.
It is really powerful I have enjoyed this first year so much that I'm of course coming back next to yourself.
But it's also been a really great partnership and and that was the thing that helped me get,
get going and get started this year was knowing that I had really good support from Kelly is my teaching partner,
with such a great background in curriculum design and teaching and education as well as strong support from my colleagues in the middle school and my administrators,
I've been really great about supporting me and giving me room to run with guidance and support so.

[46:49] That partnership has worked out really well and we recognize that it's a fairly unique situation,
we don't always teach the same class as you know where we have or lead teachers for different sections and everything,
but we do find that sometimes it works really well to go say hey can you teach this part or can you explain this or can you help me design this part,
that ability to go to someone who understands,
the question that you're asking and can point you in the right direction is hugely helpful and so one of the reasons why we started this podcast was we recognize that this is,
unique we have different perspectives that not everyone else does and the best way to share that perspective with others was to create something where we could,
talk and make it into a conversation where other people can join in and participate no matter where they were sitting even if it's,
in our world school at the school in Kentucky or India or wherever they can have access in some way to,
the situation that we have here with with two very different teachers with different backgrounds working together they can be a part of that and hopefully they're getting something from that to enhance their teaching or coating.
I love it I think it's such a great model and with computer science being a new subject for many schools leveraging.

[48:10] Technologist and educator in a partnership is great and I am often trying to build a bridge because it feels like that you communities.
Picture for languages.
Are so many programmers I've met who are really passionate and excited about education and they want to contribute and it's like how do we so that.

[48:32] Biotin benefits yeah I agree I mean it's it is something that is great Sean pushes me a lot.
Every every week I seem to have a different kits or bored or microphone on my desk I remember the first time he gave me the.
Wasn't the Game Boy but the pie girl and he says here you're going to build this I looked in his head no I'm not.
And now I'm on to wearable so I think you need that and I think when you find that special.
Mentorship within your school you can pretty much.

[49:09] Take it wherever you want both of us are people that constantly like to challenge ourselves and do the things that people say that we can't swear example next year we're changing it up I'm going to teach 6th grade he's going to teach some 7th grade,
you know why it why stick to something we just figured out this year we might have change it up again.
So it's that that that natural pushing this and I think that's something that comes in with people who like to code and that's why we try to tell you if you have that desire to.
Always better yourself till always learn more then you are person that can do computer science or to code and to have fun so.

[49:45] I think that's great and I think that's what keeps everyone in the app icon community so connected cuz we all want to learn more absolutely,
so we're pushing very long episode because I think we could talk to Meg all I mean when I was reading your story we're just so excited about hearing things from you I love what you do I loved how you had your talk app icon this year,
just a nice feeling to know that their Educators out there,
like us who have that passion of pedagogy as well it's a good feeling and it made it a very comfortable experience at Pike on knowing that they were,
other people like me there so thank you for that it just wanted to thank you for that keynote awesome I'm so glad it was meaningful in,
like waves for this podcast okay we're going to sign off and I'm going to work diligently at getting this edited and online in a reasonable amount of time.

[50:40] Meg was a pleasure having you on the podcast with us so we really hope we can do it again,
soon I guess you have to write another book or or something we have a good reason to bring you back on it's been a pleasure thank you so much for joining us and we will make sure that we post a link to your pycon keynote in our show notes as well as,
I link to your book on Amazon so people can pre-order it,
I will also give a link to the eye. Website so people can jump in with both feet so for teaching python this is Sean.