[00:00:00] Coté: Well, big news here at software defined talk conglomerate, LLC BV, associates. Yes. we've actually, um, thanks to the wonderful work of, uh, uh, you know, CIO, CEO, CFO, CMO and CRO, uh, Brandon Wichard. We are now using Google Docs, as we mentioned last week, they have, Well, we're going to find out, but I'm going to call it full support for Markdown until I find out otherwise. Uh, this is the board perspective, uh, so far. Well, maybe, I don't know if I'm promoting myself to the board or I'm just some person we ran into in the break room. But, It
[00:00:41] Matt: didn't
[00:00:41] Coté: feels
[00:00:41] Matt: vote
[00:00:41] Coté: like we're, we're here. I'm looking at our show notes. It in Google Docs. It looks like a Google Doc, but I know that it's marked down. And I have to ask you, Brandon, I know that you went through several trials, you had some POCs.
[00:00:55] Brandon: Mm-hmm.
[00:00:55] Coté: You had, of course, you want to get Gartner in there to weigh in, but also, you're going to get probably, I'm going to guess either Bane or maybe the, you know, the CFO person was like, I like those Thornton hold a rose flower in their mouth, people, that you might remember. And how is it panning out so far? Is it matching what your expectations were? How's the ROI looking?
[00:01:20] Brandon: I think it's very good so far. I think, one, Google Docs is a lot more convenient for people you work with, just in general, they're familiar with that versus our old provider, Dropbox. I was able to basically just copy over Markdown files into my Google
[00:01:32] Coté: hmm.
[00:01:32] Brandon: Drive, and it just opens them. It's very nice. It has a nice little 33 options you can basically edit or view, so you can kind of just, uh, which is nice. that way, you know, people that don't want to do anything. They can just, you know, pick the place that they like. I will say, though, um, and maybe this is just me. I don't know. Well, actually, I learned, right, for the show, this isn't just me. So, I have gotten very used to editing Markdown and with a black background, you know, essentially dark mode. In fact, I was going to ask, like, does anyone actually use light mode on the max. I feel like no one, it's like you're, it's a real unusual person, I think, to use light, because I changed it
[00:02:08] Coté: Mm.
[00:02:08] Brandon: back the other day as doing some testing. As a quick aside, I put my Mac in the light mode just to like our day mode, whatever, just to see if
[00:02:15] Matt: You're like,
[00:02:16] Brandon: these apps
[00:02:16] Matt: ah,
[00:02:16] Brandon: were
[00:02:16] Matt: light.
[00:02:16] Brandon: working. And if it felt like the sun. I mean, it was so bright. I,
[00:02:21] Coté: Too
[00:02:21] Brandon: I,
[00:02:21] Coté: much.
[00:02:22] Brandon: I, I almost felt
[00:02:22] Coté: much.
[00:02:23] Brandon: like it was, it was like I had broken something.
[00:02:25] Matt: Yeah.
[00:02:25] Brandon: So I immediately changed
[00:02:26] Matt: Yeah.
[00:02:27] Brandon: it back. But, uh, where I was going with that was, uh, and I, of course, I use Google Docs a lot, and I've kind of gotten used to like, oh, Google Docs is white, but like, I don't know, for some reason, Markdown needs to be on black background. I can't explain it, but that's what it was. So, sure enough, I got it in here. I'm editing why. Everything is working great, and I'm like, oh, I just need to turn on the dark mode, like in here, in the Google Docs. Come to find out, there is no official support for Dark Mode and Google Docs,
[00:02:56] Coté: No dark
[00:02:57] Brandon: even though
[00:02:57] Coté: mode.
[00:02:57] Brandon: themes
[00:02:57] Matt: Mind
[00:02:58] Brandon: exist in Gmail and
[00:03:01] Matt: Yeah,
[00:03:01] Brandon: in like Google News. Like there's like it respects the dark mode stuff. So, so I am like any new user. I'm like, you've finally given me what I want and 10 seconds into it, I'm already upset and mad that it doesn't do it exactly like my previous editor. So, I guess we open, I guess we go through Matt and we open up a request for enhancement. Can you please turn the background dark? And there are, I know, before people email in. I know there are extensions to do this. But, you know, extensions are how are basically how road to hell is paved. You add an extension, and then, you know, other stuff starts to break. And so that's why I'm like, I'm very, I'm worried about it. So don't don't need to email me. I just want the Google people to do it. I feel like this is something they're really good at, like turning the background of a web page from white to black. I feel like this is a very skilled organization that could do it.
[00:03:55] Coté: If there's anyone that could manipulate the web to get your desired outcome, it should be Google.
[00:04:02] Coté: you know, you also, like, you can't be grease monkeying your way through life. right?
[00:04:06] Matt: Oh,
[00:04:06] Coté: Like,
[00:04:06] Matt: no.
[00:04:06] Coté: need to have, like, options for doing things. But I think I think I have spent, you know, I'm gonna say, uh, Brandon, uh, that I think Google Docs might be favorite is the wrong word, but is the most comfortable place that I edit text. Like I've used it so many, so many times, felt so long, and I've edited so much stuff, and it's not like my default choice, but it's, it's, I have no stress. Like, I'm in Google Docs, I'm doing stuff, but I have never thought about this, that there is, Yeah, I, you've probably ruined it for me. Now I'm going to be in Google going be thinking like, why is this the one place in my life where there's not dark mode?
[00:04:47] Matt: Exactly.
[00:04:48] Coté: And I
[00:04:48] Matt: Yeah.
[00:04:49] Coté: to bask in the glory of, like, you know, all F's instead of all, you know, like 010101.
[00:04:56] Brandon: Well, I I realize it's somewhat irrational what I'm saying, and so it's feel free to the Google product management team to put back on me. It's like, I use it all the time, and I'm very used to, like, the white background, but there's just something about when I'm doing Markdown.
[00:05:10] Coté: Yeah,
[00:05:11] Brandon: It needs I just feel like it needs to be on the dark background. I don't know. Maybe because it's like a little bit closer to like coding. It's a little bit like it's
[00:05:19] Coté: that's
[00:05:19] Brandon: like a,
[00:05:19] Coté: it.
[00:05:19] Matt: little
[00:05:19] Brandon: And
[00:05:20] Matt: closer. Yeah.
[00:05:21] Brandon: and it's like, it's not really coding, but it's like, no, no, like, I'm in, like, I'm doing real work. I need a black background. It's like it's like having my terminals up. They're
[00:05:28] Matt: Exactly.
[00:05:28] Brandon: all in black
[00:05:28] Matt: I
[00:05:29] Brandon: I'm
[00:05:29] Matt: was about to
[00:05:29] Brandon: doing
[00:05:29] Matt: say,
[00:05:29] Brandon: real work, you know?
[00:05:30] Matt: know, if your terminal was white and you're in, you know, T-Mux into a couple different LMs and error agents or whatever, can you imagine that? You'd be like, what is this, the 70s? I mean, come on. It's, You don't, I was in a session last week and, you know, for work. I keep certain browsers in light mode because I'm like, this is what the UI looks like in demos, right? But in, you know, on the personal side, it's like, it's always dark mode. And like, the, the operators, engineers I was working with, you know, they had, they were sharing their screens, and of course, everything's in dark mode, and, and, you know, the, the executors, like, oh, oh, what, I can't find anything. I was like, oh, maybe that's it. You know, maybe, maybe it's like, you need dark mode if you're getting things done.
[00:06:17] Brandon: Now, while I appreciate Dark Mud. I do want to register one other minor complaint while we're on top of Google Docs. I feel like if I send you a link in Google Docs and you send me back, a Word Doc, there's a violation there. That's, that is something
[00:06:35] Matt: Who's doing that?
[00:06:36] Brandon: the, that there should be like an international consortium, uh, probably based in Europe where I can file some type of complaint. Like, you violated a sacred agreement that we implicitly came into, and you are now getting one negative start. almost like an Uber rating. I'm giving you a negative start. And if it happens too many times, we're going to take away your privileges to the internet, right? Because that is something that is, to me, completely unacceptable. Now, if you send me a word, doc, you fired the 1st shot. I have to keep it in word, right?
[00:07:11] Matt: I,
[00:07:11] Brandon: Like,
[00:07:12] Matt: I,
[00:07:12] Brandon: I get it.
[00:07:12] Matt: I
[00:07:12] Brandon: I,
[00:07:13] Matt: really
[00:07:13] Brandon: I,
[00:07:13] Matt: like the,
[00:07:13] Brandon: I,
[00:07:13] Matt: I,
[00:07:14] Brandon: I get it, but if, if I get 1st dibs. You can't convert. And if, and like I said before, and if it happens, I believe there should be a place where I can, uh, register a complaint because we can't have this going on for too much longer in
[00:07:27] Matt: I
[00:07:27] Brandon: the internet.
[00:07:27] Matt: like the idea that somewhere Brandon's got Uber style style leaderboard with rankings of people,
[00:07:33] Coté: Yeah,
[00:07:33] Matt: like,
[00:07:33] Coté: huh.
[00:07:34] Matt: know, oh, Kote,
[00:07:34] Brandon: Oh,
[00:07:35] Matt: you're you're
[00:07:35] Brandon: only
[00:07:35] Matt: 498.
[00:07:35] Brandon: knew.
[00:07:38] Matt: Exactly. It's like,
[00:07:39] Brandon: true.
[00:07:40] Coté: Oh, sounds like a new vibe app. Like, like, I, uh, you know, I get, I get, uh, I get notifications at
[00:07:46] Brandon: Yep.
[00:07:47] Coté: a, uh, the
[00:07:48] Matt: Yeah.
[00:07:48] Coté: perfect
[00:07:48] Brandon: right.
[00:07:48] Coté: time when it's someone's birthday anniversary or our school thing. And
[00:07:53] Matt: Oh,
[00:07:53] Coté: now I
[00:07:53] Matt: uh.
[00:07:53] Coté: think you mightn't have a rating
[00:07:55] Brandon: like it.
[00:07:56] Coté: humanity.
[00:07:56] Matt: Hmm.
[00:07:57] Coté: we'll have sort of like a hive mind thing where like every time a user comes in, you add a new person and you add a rating, then we have kind of
[00:08:05] Matt: Well,
[00:08:05] Coté: like that Plurbis,
[00:08:06] Matt: you know, Oh,
[00:08:06] Coté: we just have this kind of like collective rating of people. And then you can walk up to someone and
[00:08:11] Matt: God.
[00:08:11] Coté: see like, oh,
[00:08:12] Brandon: I
[00:08:12] Matt: That's that's
[00:08:13] Coté: hmm.
[00:08:13] Brandon: in.
[00:08:13] Matt: so dystopian,
[00:08:14] Coté: Well,
[00:08:14] Matt: because you
[00:08:14] Coté: good
[00:08:14] Matt: know,
[00:08:14] Coté: job. It looks like you've
[00:08:15] Matt: that's
[00:08:16] Coté: been satisfying
[00:08:16] Matt: not,
[00:08:16] Coté: the
[00:08:16] Matt: if
[00:08:16] Coté: world.
[00:08:16] Matt: that wasn't a launch feature of the meta glasses, it's got to be on there, right? So you're just walking around and everywhere you look, you see like, you know, 4.6 stars, 3.9 stars, you know? And then there's like comments underneath people as you're, as you're looking at them, it's like, you know, this guy's a creep. Yeah. It's like, oh, this is, I take it back. Don't do that, Brandon.
[00:08:41] Coté: All right, I think I finally understand what this Jev thing is. I was talking with one of my coworkers, Adib, who's like the AI master. You know how it is at a big organization. You got CTO of this field guy of that, chief technologist over here. I don't know. He just like the chief person who knows how the fuck AI works that we got working for us. And he was explaining to me, that what you have with, I know there's Jev is the brand name, but you've got some kind of thing that this is, is what it does. is it categorizes and identifies. And that sounds really fucking boring until you start thinking about like, what are what are the tasks that you have in computing an AI that are basically just like, is this thing yes or no? Or is this thing one category or the other? And it was making me think, how many things that I spend my precious tokens on? is essentially just like yes or no, right?
[00:09:33] Matt: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:34] Coté: That I could be optimizing into this other way of doing things. And if we sort of unleashed, we can now yes know everything and everything's the wrong word, but we can inject that in there. I guess what's left for AI is the back to what the P, wait, the G in chat GPT is, then there's just the generating, or as I think, colloquially, we should think of it as making shit up, right? Like when you have just like a yes no question, there is no making shit up, it's very, well, literally black and white, 0 and one, cut and dry. Although
[00:10:11] Matt: But,
[00:10:11] Coté: cut and dry.
[00:10:12] Matt: no.
[00:10:12] Coté: Why isn't that wet and dry, but never mind. Like, it seems like that's where a jab sort of thing, uh, like, like hooks in, which, uh, now I understand why it might be valuable.
[00:10:23] Matt: It's, it's, it's when you need a fast decision made and Probably the use case isn't using it by itself a lot. Um, I I think where it fits well is if you have like a harness, a coating harness,
[00:10:37] Coté: Hmm.
[00:10:37] Matt: whatever It even might be the pre-processor for your prompt, where it looks at the prompt and says, is this a yes no question? I got this one. And and so it like, it literally was, could, could be used to make fast decisions before
[00:10:53] Coté: Oh, I
[00:10:53] Matt: handing
[00:10:53] Coté: like that.
[00:10:54] Matt: off
[00:10:54] Coté: determination
[00:10:54] Matt: to an LLM.
[00:10:55] Coté: of if it should use the Jev thing or a
[00:10:58] Matt: Yeah.
[00:10:58] Coté: an LLM, that is itself a yes no question perhaps,
[00:11:02] Matt: Exactly.
[00:11:02] Coté: which, hmm, that's that's almost like a, that's that's like a never-ending void of consideration because how do you have the wherewithal to even know if it's a yes no question? You almost need like a higher order type of thinking, or maybe you don't.
[00:11:18] Matt: Well.
[00:11:18] Coté: Maybe that's
[00:11:19] Brandon: So isn't that the magic, though? which kind of yes or no questions, can you, you ask it? You can ask
[00:11:24] Coté: Hmm.
[00:11:24] Brandon: it something simple, like, is this form filled out, right? All the
[00:11:27] Coté: Yeah.
[00:11:27] Brandon: way up to like, should I give this person a bank loan or should I allow this person to enter my university and things like that? So I guess it's going to be going forward. It's like, what kinds of questions do people accept,
[00:11:36] Coté: What are yes no
[00:11:37] Brandon: yeah,
[00:11:37] Coté: questions?
[00:11:38] Matt: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:39] Brandon: what, and which ones do they accept being answered by a model, where there's, in effect, no way to know why? No,
[00:11:45] Matt: Well, but,
[00:11:46] Brandon: easy
[00:11:46] Matt: but,
[00:11:46] Brandon: way to say why it said yes or no.
[00:11:49] Matt: people are unpredictable like that too. I mean, if you think of like, let's use this college, this mythical college admissions, you know, bot versus a human, right? There are a dozen questions on an entrance exam or, or, you know, essay kind of stuff, and they're going to read through the essay, and they're going to have an opinion. You
[00:12:07] Coté: Mm.
[00:12:07] Matt: know, LLMs do that, right? They're going to have a bunch of, like, practical things, like, you know, socioeconomic background and that sort of stuff, and that's like, that's mostly kind of, you know, there are 5 categories we can put you in, and I can make a fast decision on that. I don't need to be human to make those kinds of decisions. You know, so if you think about things that are going into like drop downs or, you know, anytime you don't have to like hit the other and start typing a text field, that's all going to go into like, you know, and into the cider bots or whatever.
[00:12:44] Brandon: Yeah, so I think maybe it's the ultimate question will just be, you know, coache will be, you know, when you can't appeal it, or when you have to appeal it to somebody that's a computer, right? Like, like, think about it, like, uh, I get rejected for something and then I ask, uh, the computer again, like, can I do, like, I'd like to appeal this? And then if it says yes or no? you know, does this, again, like, you kind of get yourself in this loop of just, like, where, where is the human being ever really involved? So, I mean, I think it's an interesting technology, right? I mean, it seems like there are lots of yes, no questions. Um, but just like, I guess it's sort of like the repercussions of those decisions may or may not, you know, uh, be accepted by the broader society. I don't know. Maybe that's too broad a question.
[00:13:23] Coté: You know, you know, I think our wacky right wing politics and American culture have really prepared me for this like AI way of thinking, because I think, once a day might be too much, but increasingly, more than once a day, I have that phrase, we might remember from our childhood that guns don't kill people. People kill people.
[00:13:45] Brandon: Yeah.
[00:13:45] Coté: And it's sort of like the tool. Don't blame the tool, right? Like it's the people using the tool. And so in that sense, if you think about a sort of like, um, I don't know, complicated lattice of moral decision making, uh, in a yes no system, it's almost built that the tool that you're using is just like has no moral stake in it. It's just like, I don't know, you told me the yes no system. All I'm doing is executing on it, right? And so if you do set up like a yes no system or categorization or identification thing, then ultimately the problem rests with, however, I don't know if you use the word weight in this situation, I barely know what a weight is in an AI world. But it's sort of like, however you set up that system, and to be more precise, are you supposed to say who or whom in this situation? Whomever set up that situation, that is the one that ultimately has the authority. And so, uh, you know, maybe that's that's where the problem will lie is like, well, sure, it's great at doing yes no stuff. And now we're just right back where we were. How
[00:14:55] Brandon: Yeah.
[00:14:55] Coté: do the humans set up the yes knowing?
[00:14:58] Brandon: To me, the big, the bigger question for you, man, is, uh, is it worth $75000000 because that's what the original, uh, uh,
[00:15:04] Coté: More
[00:15:04] Brandon: there,
[00:15:04] Coté: importantly.
[00:15:06] Brandon: you know,
[00:15:06] Matt: get to the brass
[00:15:06] Brandon: I
[00:15:07] Matt: tacks.
[00:15:07] Brandon: mean, it's a simple, It's a very simple premise, and I
[00:15:09] Coté: Uh-huh.
[00:15:10] Brandon: do think when you think about it for a while, there's lots of ideas. Um, but then because it's simple and it's like $7.5000000, like, seems like a lot.
[00:15:19] Matt: Yeah, yeah, especially because, like, within a week of this thing coming online, there were lots of clones and and and and people were grabbing data sets that, you know, were used to show scores where they're like, you know, hey, this shows how Jev is, you know, a typical LM might be getting, you know, 55% right on this data set and Jev can do 72% and people were like, you know, a week later, hitting, you know, 6 you know with open source. And, you know, without $7500000000 And, you know, the open source seems to just be eating everything right now. And when I say open source, probably vibe coded, but, you know, um, not a proprietary, whatever model thing you call Jeb is. What do we call that? decider bot?
[00:16:10] Coté: I like what you're bringing up here, because, you know, we have long, for the 30 years we've been doing this show, talked about how, what is the business model of a source, can it survive? Like how does one, do the creation of something that you don't have to pay for and yet sustain staying alive and being able to afford the newest Apple laptop in order to code? Uh, the the software. And maybe this is, I'm sure there have been others. But I'm going to say this might be the highest profile case of can innovation in the AI world be open source disrupted, in the sense of like, so here's an idea, a new thing that exists, and is there 0 value in the not the people, because of course the people are valuable, I assume. But is there 0 value in the corporate entity that has come up with this, because it can be instantly reproduced, and therefore there's nothing to buy. And like if, if they are successful in having, um, buying them is the only way to get access to this functionality, which let's just assume is great, right? Then they will have figured out something that has vexed the open source world forever. But if there's just sort of like, you know, 15 to 300 implementations of it that anyone can do, then
[00:17:36] Matt: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:37] Coté: they've got the same problems as the
[00:17:39] Matt: Well,
[00:17:39] Coté: open source world.
[00:17:41] Matt: I mean, I don't want to be like too dramatic, but I feel like in the last 2 weeks, kind of the floor has fallen out of the software industry.
[00:17:48] Coté: Mm.
[00:17:50] Matt: I mean, you know, we saw there was the uh, the artcraft, people, little guy, whoever that is, who are like, hey, look what I did. It's, you know, Adobe's creative suite re-implemented with, you know, 500000000 tokens. And, oh, by the way, it's Opus Horse and Free. And people are like, oh, it's not as good. And like, but it's open source and free, and this is version, you know, one and, you know, next week it will be better. And, and, and then people are like, I guess it's good. And he's like, fine, here's office also, right? And, you know, so he just kind of like drops these bombshells and then, you know, some, uh, over in the the gaming side of the world. They're like, hey, we we pointed,
[00:18:29] Coté: Yeah, huh?
[00:18:30] Matt: know, opus 56 or whatever at, you know, 2009's Call of Duty and people are like, why? I'm like, look, it's, you know, 99.7% compatible. And I clean room implemented it, you know, and oh, but, you know, you don't like that? Okay, here's, you know, the top 50 games in the last 10 years. it's
[00:18:50] Brandon: I want
[00:18:50] Matt: like,
[00:18:50] Brandon: to know, I wonder if there's a nice distinction here between, like, both Jev and, I guess, you know, kind of a, as you call that, the crafting people that basically build these things, and the difference between, like, a product and Whereas like, Jev
[00:19:00] Coté: Mm.
[00:19:01] Brandon: is so new that, I mean, can only have a handful of people using it and customers. So it's really just a product that's at the beginning, a business is being built around. Whereas Dobe, I think of this as a business, it's got however many, you know, 50 years of development and a user base and, you know, license agreements and, and I think everybody makes this mistake, me included around like if you have a great product and you can get it out there and you can build stuff fast, but it's only the beginning, right? It doesn't mean people will actually download and use it. They'll pay you, or even if they'll pay you even an attention. They'll even do it. Like, sure, it's open source, but I'm sure, like, maybe today it is, but, like, does it have a good installer? How do I get it working? The documentation,
[00:19:41] Coté: Mm.
[00:19:42] Brandon: the licensing, all the boring stuff that like a business requires. Um, and maybe that the development side has gotten a lot better, and so therefore, if you're just a product, maybe that can be replicated as quick as always, as faster than ever, but like, all the other boring business stuff. I think it still takes a pretty long time to get
[00:20:03] Matt: But
[00:20:03] Brandon: working.
[00:20:03] Matt: that's thing, they...
[00:20:04] Coté: I think you're pulling together a lot of thoughts I've been having over the past couple of weeks, Brandon, and I'm going to reverse pyramid style it. do a mento memo here and say that I think the software industry is becoming the the CPG industry, right? So, so like, really, don't tell anyone. But whatever shampoo we use. It's fine. Right? Like, it doesn't matter.
[00:20:30] Brandon: Right.
[00:20:30] Coté: Like, it's all the same.
[00:20:31] Brandon: And all the soap.
[00:20:33] Coté: You could get the, you could get that stuff that, you know, you go into your H-E-B and you're like, why do they have horse shampoo in the human shampoo section, right? And,
[00:20:43] Matt: somebody's
[00:20:43] Coté: like, you can get the, you can, you can get the shampoo from the bottom of the shelf. Or all the way to the top of the shelf, just like wine. That's how they shelf shampoo in shelf space. Um, and like, I was thinking when I saw this adobe stuff. So I recently canceled my Adobe Express subscription, because it's like, I don't know, $10 a month, and I love using it. You make thumbnails, do all this stuff, but I realize you just go to Claude and you're like, I would like a thumbnail that looks like this and it's like, hold on. and it nails it, right? I mean, you know, after a little bit of doing this stuff. So I was thinking when I saw this, like, oh, maybe I don't need my office subscription anymore. But then I thought, yeah, but I really like PowerPoint. Like, it is you know, I think longtime listeners will understand. Like, I've tried to use reveal. I've tried to do this, I've tried to do that, but like you open up PowerPoint, and it's like, ah,
[00:21:37] Matt: You know
[00:21:38] Coté: here we are, right? Like, I can do this, I can do that. It's perfect. I can do exactly what I want instantly. And it's not even, the point is, it's not even that like I can wash my hair, hair instantly. It's that like, I enjoy the experience, right? And so
[00:21:55] Matt: Yeah.
[00:21:56] Coté: I think maybe there is this difference. I was thinking, I am not a Photoshop, Adobe, Creative, whatever, diehired person. So maybe I don't have that with Adobe. But when it comes to like PowerPoint. I am. It's like my thing. Now, the other layer on top of that is, I do know some like, as Adobe would say, creative people, who have been in this world for a long time, and when Adobe switched off from their perpetual license to a subscription thing, I think all of their community was like, how about fuck you? Right? And they were very, very upset, right? Like, I didn't come across any creative person who was like, wow, that's amazing.
[00:22:40] Matt: Yeah,
[00:22:40] Coté: That's
[00:22:40] Matt: no,
[00:22:41] Coté: really helping
[00:22:41] Matt: but,
[00:22:41] Coté: me
[00:22:41] Matt: but,
[00:22:41] Coté: out with
[00:22:41] Matt: Adobe
[00:22:41] Coté: my life. And so now,
[00:22:43] Matt: stock just
[00:22:43] Coté: Right,
[00:22:44] Matt: kept trucking.
[00:22:46] Coté: right. And so like, now Microsoft did that same thing, but somehow, like Microsoft managed, maybe I'm just like a data point of one, but I think people who use, as we commonly say, who use Excel and use PowerPoint are like, you know, you're going to have to like shoot me in the head before you take this away from me. This is like my life, right? Versus the adobe people, something happened there. And I feel like people who use adobe products are a little bit like, huh, what's going on over there?
[00:23:14] Brandon: also you're getting, like, who pays for it? I think Office 365 gets paid for a lot of times by the
[00:23:18] Coté: Mm.
[00:23:19] Brandon: business, and it's
[00:23:19] Coté: Yeah,
[00:23:20] Brandon: kind of just
[00:23:20] Coté: yeah,
[00:23:20] Brandon: a,
[00:23:20] Coté: yeah.
[00:23:21] Brandon: it's a cost, but it's really kind of shielded for you, whereas I think a lot of creative professionals actually do pay for that themselves.
[00:23:26] Coté: have to pay for it themselves.
[00:23:27] Brandon: And maybe to, you know, Matt's point earlier. It's like, they were probably the most vocal, even though Adobe probably has like, you know, I'm sure 1000000s in like corporate subscriptions that don't really, you know, people don't really care that much about. So, But I do think there's this notion, I mean, I don't know. it is sort of like the classic product management question is just like, hey, just because you replicated even a really good product. Even if you made a quote better product. I mean, how many times do we talk about that? There was a better product that didn't win for whatever reason. It, you know, it doesn't really mean it's, it's gonna take over. And even the fact that you could clone anything, you know, doesn't mean it will actually win. I mean, it's your, so you're all back to your original example, Kotay. It's like there's a reason that people still buy like Clorox or tied or whatever when
[00:24:11] Coté: Yeah?
[00:24:12] Brandon: those are priced a little bit more expensive and are essentially the same as like very many of the generics and like that is not changed. That hasn't changed in
[00:24:20] Coté: Absolutely.
[00:24:20] Brandon: a 100 years.
[00:24:21] Coté: Like,
[00:24:21] Matt: But,
[00:24:22] Brandon: I don't
[00:24:22] Coté: I,
[00:24:22] Matt: but
[00:24:22] Brandon: know
[00:24:22] Matt: also.
[00:24:22] Brandon: if it will ever change.
[00:24:23] Coté: you know, long before vibe coding, there was vibe marketing, which
[00:24:26] Brandon: Yeah.
[00:24:26] Coté: I think is eternal, right? Like just if you've got that that match and everything, it works out fine.
[00:24:33] Matt: But if you look at, like, you know, if you look at, like, grocery store, um, sales and stuff, the percentage of generics or store brands continues to increase, because people, a lot of people just don't care, or those products are good enough, and they become, you know, the, the default lifestyle,
[00:24:53] Coté: They become primary
[00:24:53] Matt: whereas
[00:24:54] Coté: one,
[00:24:54] Matt: on, on top of that, and instead of being like, you know, your, your shampoo aisle example, it's like, yeah, H-E-B's, got a store brand shampoo and, you know, it's it's 2% of their sales or whatever. But, you know, the next, you know, there are a 100 brands on top of that. You know, there are a 100 other shampoos on that aisle, and each one of them slowly is losing market. And, and, you know, their solution has always been, well, we'll just introduce a new shampoo. This one used to be for horses, and now you can buy it and like, oh, you know, oh, I'll switch to that. And then some percentage are going to be like, hey, what's the, what's this cheap, you know, hill country fair,
[00:25:31] Coté: Mm. Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:33] Matt: shampoo. That's for me. And that's gonna happen here. I was like, even if, if, you know, this this open source knockoff, you know, I don't even like calling it open source because it's really just a vibe coded knockoff. And, you know, nobody cares about the source because they're not going to read it. Um, but this this vibe coded knockoff, all it has to do is pull 5%. All it has to do is, you know, keep slowly chipping away at Adobe's market. And that, that's, that is the, the Sasapocalypse. I mean, Kote, you just said, like, I stopped my adobe creator license or express license and now I just asked Claude to do things. That is the sass apocalypse.
[00:26:13] Coté: Yeah, exactly. I, I,
[00:26:15] Brandon: I
[00:26:15] Coté: yeah,
[00:26:15] Brandon: would say
[00:26:15] Coté: huh?
[00:26:15] Brandon: this way, though. I think of it like back to the package examples. It's like, you got to also think about like all the products in the store that never even made it to the shelves. Like,
[00:26:23] Matt: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:24] Brandon: there's whatever, 10 champion shampoos, there were like 4000 that
[00:26:28] Matt: Yep.
[00:26:28] Brandon: tried to get in that never got off, then some of them are probably better. Some of them are like legitimately
[00:26:32] Matt: Sure.
[00:26:33] Brandon: better for whatever reason. They could probably, but they just never get off the
[00:26:36] Matt: see
[00:26:36] Brandon: ground.
[00:26:36] Matt: the stuff
[00:26:36] Brandon: They never.
[00:26:36] Matt: I make my bathtub.
[00:26:37] Brandon: They never made a business out of it and they never got anything going. And I think that's kind of how, like, the software. like, sure, like, there will be some like legitimate replacements. That will, I'm sure that will take share from existing solutions, but I don't, I don't, like the idea is like an apocalypse that it won't exist. Like word won't exist or Adobe won't exist. It's like, I don't
[00:26:57] Matt: No, no, it's
[00:26:57] Brandon: at all.
[00:26:58] Matt: not that
[00:26:58] Brandon: there'll
[00:26:58] Matt: they're going to
[00:26:59] Brandon: exist
[00:26:59] Matt: not
[00:26:59] Brandon: at
[00:26:59] Matt: exist.
[00:26:59] Brandon: a slightly different profit margin.
[00:27:01] Matt: Well, and and if, if, if, if, if, if Wall Street was told today, Adobe is done growing.
[00:27:10] Matt: What does that do to Adobe stock? Because everything's built on growth in multiples? And then all these stocks start tanking and you're like, oh, but there are a profitable business that has a, you know, they're going to be profitable for 20 years. And they're like, but that's not growth.
[00:27:25] Brandon: Well, I think what would happen, and I think this is like an interesting, uh, place to take it was that bending spoons, right? So this is basically like, I don't know what you call it, like private equity for software, you know, companies, where they basically, you know, they buy. I mean, to your point, I mean, what would happen? At some point, I think they bought up, what was the ones they recently did? It was like the Miro,
[00:27:43] Coté: Miro.
[00:27:45] Brandon: and there was another one, like, uh, the, like, uh, where you meet, meet up or something like that or something. I don't know, one of
[00:27:50] Coté: Oh,
[00:27:51] Brandon: those,
[00:27:51] Matt: bunch of
[00:27:51] Brandon: a
[00:27:51] Coté: did they buy meetup?
[00:27:52] Brandon: bunch
[00:27:52] Coté: Huh,
[00:27:52] Brandon: of those. Um, and what they basically did. And I think
[00:27:55] Coté: bought
[00:27:55] Brandon: this
[00:27:55] Coté: brands.
[00:27:55] Brandon: is, I think, a good example. They basically took brands that, you know, for whatever reasons, I think stopped growing to Matt's point. They probably were stopped growing. They weren't, or the, the people that are investing in them are no longer getting the kind of return that they wanted. And they've kind of announced that they basically they're coming out and basically going to deploy AI to kind of, if you will, maintain these businesses or these products going forward and they'll run in the mat a smaller profit margin, which I think is like, it's kind of makes sense to me, right? At 1st you're sort of like, oh, this is just private equity, but it's sort of like, well, if you want these things to exist at all, someone's got to like take them on and that if you have an existing business, you know, vending spoons is basically going to do that, right? They're basically going to just do everything with AI, keep the brand alive, probably keep the value proposition as it was originally kind of stated, generally, you know, those apps generally doing what they did before. And, you know, that's definitely going to be the future of like software that that does go undergo like a significant pricing pressure. I think you'll see companies like this, you know, essentially acquire them and keep them going and good and bad, right? It'd be cheaper for consumers, right? But it'll also mean there'll be like smaller businesses, which, I don't know, call that the circle of life. Circle business.
[00:29:03] Coté: All right, I've got a new investment strategy for Matt Ray D'Alio's hedge fundier. And it has three components. One of them is, as Brandon just laid out in the technology industry, brand, is king, right? So, I mean, that's how CPG works, consumer package goods, shampoo, whatever, is the brand that you have is where the value is. Now, as you, as you brought up Matt Ray, Hill Country Fair, but we are here, obsessed with HEB, that's a great brand. Anything
[00:29:33] Brandon: is.
[00:29:34] Coté: that HEV puts its brand on is going to have a to be to be crude with the phrasing, a artificial value that is far above what it's actually valued at. You'll be like, uh, it's the central market brand. It's the Hill Country Fair brand. It's got that happy little shopping bag on it. Sure, I'll buy that, right? Like, and so, like, that brand they have, just like the Kirkland brand or the Costco brand has actually become, like, luxury is the wrong word, but it's above generic beer that they're drinking in Repo Man and all of that stuff, right? So they've raised that up. So brand is important, just like, you know, if you're bending spoons, you think about, or at least I think about the acquisitions they've had, they have bought recognizable strong brands that have highly replicatable, like software, but there is also a captured community in them, like
[00:30:28] Matt: They've
[00:30:28] Coté: Evernote.
[00:30:29] Matt: got inertia. Yeah.
[00:30:30] Coté: Right, right. And so it's sort of like they're fine. And then the the other investment thesis is, uh, I forget who came up with this, is that, um, storage, is a good investment, right? Like people have stuff, and as you and I know, Matt Ray, they're going to keep it somewhere, and they're just going to perpetually pay to keep their shit somewhere when they should have gotten rid of it long ago. And so that's a good investment. And then you also have hardware, right? You need computers to actually run things on. So that's probably why oxide got a lot of funding, is someone was like,
[00:31:06] Matt: Well,
[00:31:06] Coté: you know, this
[00:31:06] Matt: and
[00:31:06] Coté: is
[00:31:06] Matt: sales
[00:31:06] Coté: this is all there is to invest in. Like, it's either brand, extra space storage or hardware is what we're going to be looking at. And currently Dell is not taking investments. So we're cool. We'll buy this over
[00:31:20] Matt: doing well.
[00:31:20] Coté: here.
[00:31:22] Matt: Uh, yeah, so, so there you go. The future is and things that can't be replicated with an AI, so your storage in your compute.
[00:31:30] Matt: And,
[00:31:31] Brandon: in your brand. I think your brand is the
[00:31:32] Matt: it's,
[00:31:32] Brandon: that that's
[00:31:33] Matt: it's
[00:31:33] Brandon: to be
[00:31:33] Matt: milky
[00:31:33] Brandon: very hard.
[00:31:34] Matt: and existing brands.
[00:31:35] Brandon: Yeah, I mean, to some degree, I think that's definitely true. But, like, it is interesting. I know you brought up oxide. I think, you know, maybe Matt, you're closest to it. It is really interesting because they raised money and they've now hit 6000000000 and they usually do a pretty long episode after fundraising. I haven't seen
[00:31:49] Matt: Yeah,
[00:31:50] Brandon: it yet, so I
[00:31:50] Matt: it's
[00:31:50] Brandon: assume
[00:31:50] Matt: coming.
[00:31:50] Brandon: it'll come out in the next few weeks. But it is interesting in the sense of like they're, I mean, by their own admission, right? They don't do anything with GPUs. That's not their, that's not their thing, that they are really building just better computers. I
[00:32:04] Matt: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:04] Brandon: mean, I say just like it's like anyone can do it. But it's really interesting that, like, I don't know, maybe to your original question, because, like, maybe hardware is back, maybe just building a traditional data center rack and a very high performance, you know, manner with like a lot of
[00:32:20] Matt: Well,
[00:32:20] Brandon: quality,
[00:32:20] Matt: and...
[00:32:20] Brandon: kind of to the brand, I guess, to the point we're talking about, is like, because they are definitely creating a brand of data
[00:32:27] Coté: Right,
[00:32:27] Brandon: center
[00:32:27] Coté: wait,
[00:32:27] Brandon: computer
[00:32:27] Coté: wait,
[00:32:28] Brandon: that is
[00:32:28] Matt: quality.
[00:32:28] Brandon: different the Dell and
[00:32:29] Coté: can,
[00:32:30] Brandon: the HPs that are out there.
[00:32:31] Coté: you can imagine like Cantrell going out there and being like, you know, he'll give a long animated talk where he's, he's flailing around and he'll be like, the conclusion is, does anyone know how to fucking build hardware around here?
[00:32:42] Brandon: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:42] Coté: And, you know, by the end of the time listening to his talk, it'd be like, no, only you, right? Like, and so if that becomes, like, only you and Nvidia know how to build hardware. Uh, then, yeah, that that'll be valuable. He'd be like, these people over here, they just make it cheap. They do this, but like, there's no innovation. And so that will be the if software just becomes like brand led. Like, you know, if you want to sell the shampoo. You need shelves to put it on, and the whole like store that you go in to buy it from. Or you need the warehouses it ships from, whatever, whatever kind of wacky metaphor you want to use. So maybe, like hardware, three-dimensional objects become like, once again, where the value is, which would be, I
[00:33:25] Matt: Until
[00:33:26] Coté: think,
[00:33:26] Matt: those
[00:33:26] Coté: I think
[00:33:26] Matt: 3D
[00:33:26] Coté: for,
[00:33:26] Matt: printers
[00:33:27] Coté: for,
[00:33:27] Matt: get a little better.
[00:33:28] Coté: Yeah, for us 3 would be terrible because we don't deal on 3 dimensional objects. Like, it's not good, but it would be a dramatic shift from how things have been for
[00:33:38] Brandon: So,
[00:33:38] Coté: a long
[00:33:38] Brandon: is it too early? Like, do we put on the software to talk, uh, excuse me, software to find talk, uh, consulting and say like, I mean, if you're like Nvidia? Like, do you just look over at oxide and be like, hmm, they make really good computers? And
[00:33:51] Coté: Absolutely,
[00:33:51] Brandon: like, and
[00:33:51] Coté: yeah.
[00:33:52] Brandon: we, we kind of make computers, but we really make these GPUs, but we're really good at engineering. Why don't we, why don't we just invite them over and
[00:34:00] Coté: That
[00:34:00] Brandon: make them
[00:34:00] Coté: would
[00:34:00] Brandon: part
[00:34:00] Coté: be,
[00:34:01] Brandon: of our,
[00:34:01] Coté: like, I
[00:34:02] Brandon: thing,
[00:34:02] Coté: think, like
[00:34:02] Brandon: right?
[00:34:03] Matt: see that though.
[00:34:04] Coté: Monktoberfest was a couple of weeks ago, and every year, they give Brian, like, a spot, a slot
[00:34:09] Brandon: Uh-huh.
[00:34:09] Coté: speak there. Next year, he should give a slot that's like, tell us everyone who's tried to acquire you. You've got an hour. Go through the stories. And that would be, that would be in, in, from the corporate strategy M&A world, amazing, right?
[00:34:24] Brandon: Well,
[00:34:25] Coté: To hear
[00:34:25] Brandon: I
[00:34:25] Coté: like
[00:34:25] Brandon: know they've
[00:34:25] Coté: all
[00:34:25] Brandon: come out
[00:34:25] Coté: the
[00:34:26] Brandon: and
[00:34:26] Coté: stories.
[00:34:26] Brandon: basically said they would not be acquired. Of course, like everyone says this before, you know, the money gun shows up, but like, I know they said like Dell, HP, that they basically are not going to entertain anything from like, I'll just say the traditional large scale computing systems
[00:34:38] Matt: Right,
[00:34:39] Brandon: firms,
[00:34:39] Matt: right.
[00:34:39] Brandon: but Nvidia...
[00:34:40] Matt: They don't they don't want to be like the alien wear for for Dell, right?
[00:34:43] Brandon: Nvidia seems like a whole nother,
[00:34:45] Coté: Uh-huh.
[00:34:45] Brandon: that seems like a whole nother world. I don't know, Matt, you
[00:34:48] Matt: they're
[00:34:48] Brandon: seem skeptical
[00:34:48] Matt: building their
[00:34:48] Brandon: that
[00:34:48] Matt: own
[00:34:48] Brandon: this
[00:34:48] Matt: data
[00:34:49] Brandon: would
[00:34:49] Matt: center
[00:34:49] Brandon: even be, what's
[00:34:49] Matt: Yeah.
[00:34:50] Brandon: that?
[00:34:51] Matt: They have their own data center products. It's just, uh, you know, because they have CPUs. They have GPUs, they have networking gear. Yeah, I mean, they are slowly, you know, moving to fill out the whole stack. Um,
[00:35:04] Brandon: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:05] Matt: So, it could happen. I just, it doesn't seem actually like that good to fit where, to me, like oxide would probably end up as like, a Google subsidiary or something where they're like, yeah, we have this thing and or even like Facebook, the way they're so into open compute,
[00:35:23] Coté: Ah.
[00:35:23] Matt: you know, which is not, which is similar, like full transparency, like here's how everything is made. Like oxide puts, you know, CAD models and stuff online. I mean, you know, they're they're very transparent about what they're doing. So you could see somebody who values transparency and debug ability. Is that
[00:35:42] Coté: Yeah.
[00:35:42] Matt: a
[00:35:42] Coté: yeah.
[00:35:42] Matt: Um,
[00:35:43] Coté: I feel
[00:35:43] Matt: as.
[00:35:44] Coté: like, though, I know very little about this, despite how authoritatively I'm speaking about it. I feel like oxide wants to carpet bomb the world with computers, right? And so if they went to like Facebook or Google, they would, it'd be a very selective carpet, like small carpets that they were
[00:35:59] Matt: Yeah,
[00:35:59] Coté: doing.
[00:36:00] Matt: and I
[00:36:00] Coté: instead
[00:36:01] Matt: mean...
[00:36:01] Coté: of like everywhere.
[00:36:03] Matt: I'm just saying, like, as far as, um, because obviously they're not gonna go to, like, a super micro or Adele
[00:36:09] Coté: Mm,
[00:36:09] Matt: or an HP,
[00:36:10] Coté: yeah,
[00:36:10] Matt: because
[00:36:10] Coté: yeah, yeah.
[00:36:10] Matt: just like, that's not our gig, right? It would be like, you know, an
[00:36:15] Coté: got
[00:36:15] Matt: SGI who
[00:36:15] Coté: to be something.
[00:36:16] Matt: doesn't exist anymore. Right?
[00:36:17] Coté: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:17] Brandon: Yeah, no, I mean, I think they're, I mean, they're probably in their mission, probably, rightly so, is still, like, they just want to become the, whatever, the
[00:36:23] Matt: They
[00:36:23] Brandon: dominant.
[00:36:24] Matt: just want to become, you 5th vendor or whatever.
[00:36:25] Brandon: Yeah, the the dominant server provider in the world and that, you know, go on becoming a public company and become a huge thing.
[00:36:32] Matt: Yeah,
[00:36:33] Brandon: makes
[00:36:33] Matt: mean,
[00:36:33] Brandon: sense.
[00:36:33] Matt: not
[00:36:33] Brandon: Good goal.
[00:36:33] Matt: everything has to be acquired.
[00:36:35] Brandon: Right. And maybe they're at a point too, where they, you know, that, you know, they have enough, if you will, you know, they've had enough success in their lives to be like, this is what we want to go for and we don't want to. We don't have any need to, but it
[00:36:48] Matt: Yeah.
[00:36:48] Brandon: just, I mean, it's your point. I don't know, your, your point's well taken. Like, Nvidia has a lot of this, but I just kind of think to myself, like, really smart server, data center, computer people, combined with really smart
[00:37:01] Matt: just...
[00:37:01] Brandon: GPU, people, and like, and just like personality wise, like, you know, Jensen's like an engineers engineer. I think, you know, right?
[00:37:08] Matt: But, but,
[00:37:09] Brandon: feel like I could see them on stage like Jensen and Brian. I could see that being an
[00:37:13] Matt: I
[00:37:13] Brandon: interesting
[00:37:13] Matt: can't,
[00:37:13] Brandon: keynote.
[00:37:13] Coté: Mm.
[00:37:15] Brandon: Well, I don't know. You threw out Facebook. I was like, I could never see a
[00:37:19] Matt: No, no, no, no. I meant like, absolutely not.
[00:37:22] Brandon: That be crazy.
[00:37:23] Matt: I absolutely not. I just mean like the hardware people at Facebook. You know, the people who, like, they literally kickstarted open compute. And as far as I know, they're still like one of the biggest drivers. And what's different about Nvidia versus like, uh, Oxide is like, Nvidia is not that transparent. They they keep a lot of stuff really closely held and and, you know, they're like, here's what you get. you know, and it's, you know, we'll, you know, we're not gonna be, you know, we don't give out the spec sheets of stuff. We don't do open source drivers. You know, it's it's that kind of stuff. I mean, they've talked about it on the oxide podcast. Like, when they talk about GPUs, they're like, nobody is open enough, right? Nobody was willing to give us like access to to driver source code. So when something fails, we can't debug it, which is the experience they've been avoiding for their customers. It's like, that's what Kickstart at Oxide, the whole, whole thing, is having to deal with, like, vendors like Dell and Super Micro and HP who would, like, change out, you know, uh, you know, hardware and keep the same skews. And so things would just break and you wouldn't know until you like, you're literally like looking at boards and seeing that the chips changed. You're like, holy crap, how did I not know? Right? And they're going for like, as a large scale, you know, operator. This kind of stuff shows up repeatedly. If you have 100,000 machines and you think they're all the same skew and they're not, things you're going to have a bad time eventually.
[00:38:54] Coté: Well, you know, I think I think this will be a challenge for them is to overcome the, uh, what if I had a billion dollars post tax my, my, uh, my pocket. Who would I stand on a stage with is the ultimate test of uh, sort of like uh, founders goals, fortitude. Now, you know, something that doesn't require fortitude, because it's set up to run smoothly is bureaucracy. Do we have any of that, Brandon?
[00:39:21] Brandon: We did. Just quickly, Devesh sent me some sticker or some pictures, rather. He was out in, I think it's merititis. Anyway, the small island somewhere off the African coast. So he did get to stickers. I was wondering if
[00:39:32] Matt: Wow.
[00:39:32] Brandon: they were going to make it. So that's as far, that's the most remote place. I think we've sent them. So that was fantastic. I appreciate them sending me some pictures of that. If you would like a sticker and maybe you're not that far away. All you have to do is send your postal address to stickers at softwaredefinetalk.com. Be happy to send you sticker anywhere in the world. And evidently, I mean it.
[00:39:51] Coté: So there's a lot of conferences going on, many of which I'm speaking at. If you go to softwaredefinedtalk.com slash 594, you can find them. There's even some discount codes, if you enjoy those sort of things. Now, we're, uh, I guess after this, we have 5 more episodes before we reach episode 600. And then it's only 66 until we get to the devil's episode, which hopefully we can schedule to be around Halloween or so. We'll find out. But while we're waiting for that, Brandon, what do you have to recommend to people?
[00:40:19] Brandon: Well, I'm actually going to steal a recommendation from good friend Brian Gracely. He was going to be on the show, but fell ill a while back, but he had a good recommendation. It's the movie coming out. You can see everything, so this is about Elizabeth Holmes and the documentary
[00:40:33] Matt: know if I
[00:40:33] Brandon: that's
[00:40:33] Matt: handle
[00:40:34] Brandon: by, um, I just the name. The guy, who's the director? Anyway, the guy that makes like, he's made many other unusual documentaries. In the trailer, I think the trailer alone is like just incredible. So
[00:40:47] Matt: Yeah,
[00:40:48] Brandon: I a link. I put a link into it and I think the movie comes out Friday, so probably the time you're hearing this. So I think I'm going to go see it. I heard it's 3 hours, but I feel I feel compelled.
[00:40:58] Coté: hours.
[00:40:58] Brandon: I've read I've
[00:40:59] Matt: Whoa.
[00:40:59] Brandon: read the book. I've uh, it's Nathan something. I'm I
[00:41:02] Matt: Nathan Felder?
[00:41:03] Brandon: find a name. Yeah, I felt he's the one and you know, he does kind of like the odd documentary. He got an odd person himself. So I don't know what this is going to be, but I feel compelled to see it. So, uh, I'll try to go see it, report back if it's worth the full 3 hours see
[00:41:16] Matt: Yeah,
[00:41:16] Brandon: if I
[00:41:16] Matt: that
[00:41:16] Brandon: can get
[00:41:17] Matt: that trailer just makes me squirm. I don't know if I could take 3
[00:41:20] Brandon: Everyone
[00:41:20] Matt: hours.
[00:41:20] Brandon: should know. The trailers, uh, that's the link in my recommendation this week, so for sure, wait, uh, 3 minutes, well worth it. Watch the
[00:41:26] Matt: Yeah,
[00:41:27] Brandon: trailer
[00:41:27] Matt: oh, oh yeah, yeah. It's, sticks with you.
[00:41:30] Coté: I feel like I could have watched three hours of the Backrooms movie, but I don't know. Maybe, you know what? We'll come back to this, and you can tell us like how
[00:41:36] Matt: Yes.
[00:41:37] Coté: it is. How about yourself, Matt Ray? What do you have to recommend?
[00:41:40] Matt: Well, uh, my my pick this week is is the book, uh, what I talk about when I talk about running. Um, uh, which is, uh, oh gosh, I'm darned, Blake, what's his name? Um, Japanese author. Uh, who, um,
[00:41:58] Coté: Hirohito
[00:41:58] Matt: Haruki
[00:41:58] Coté: running
[00:41:59] Matt: Murakami. Yes. Um, it's his autobiography, I guess. not, you know, it's not his full life. just him going back and forth between talking about being a long distance runner and a writer and how they kind of reinforcing and, you know, dropping in stories of preparing for like different marathons and the like. I've just, I've really enjoyed it. I'm about 3 quarters through, almost done. I don't think it's going to have like a grand finale. You know, he's still alive. I's still running, whatever.
[00:42:30] Matt: So, uh, but it's, it's, it's a really good read. And I've only read like one other of his books, but I feel like I need to give some more of them a shot, because I've enjoyed it quite a bit.
[00:42:40] Coté: So, Matt Ray, I feel like when you retire, you're just going to be running forever. And so,
[00:42:45] Matt: Probably,
[00:42:45] Coté: don't
[00:42:45] Matt: yeah. yard
[00:42:46] Coté: what,
[00:42:46] Matt: work.
[00:42:47] Coté: I don't remember the name of this race, but it was one of these conversations with Tyler thing, and there's some race in, I don't know, the Southeastern America region where it's like the impossible race, like climbing up a mountain, and like being in nature and everything, and he interviewed this guy. And that's the race I want to hear you run that like only
[00:43:08] Matt: Uh, well.
[00:43:08] Coté: like 3 people only like over 30 years have actually completed it. And I
[00:43:13] Matt: Oh,
[00:43:13] Coté: know it's
[00:43:13] Matt: is.
[00:43:13] Coté: not a marathon. It's not flat, but you should do this this race.
[00:43:16] Matt: Barclay, are you talking about, like, the Barclay Marathons?
[00:43:19] Coté: I have no idea, but
[00:43:21] Matt: I think I've talked about that one before a couple times. Like, it's, it's every year it's a different route. It's in West Virginia,
[00:43:27] Coté: right. Exactly. Some guy plans it, and it's like impossible
[00:43:31] Matt: Oh yeah,
[00:43:32] Coté: do.
[00:43:32] Matt: yeah. Previously, I'd recommended there's at least one documentary about it. It's fascinating. And, and, you know, there have, like, any given year may have, nobody completes it, and, um,
[00:43:45] Coté: right, that's right. So, you need to run that. And next week, tell us how it
[00:43:49] Matt: I'm
[00:43:50] Coté: goes.
[00:43:50] Matt: not running the Barclay marathons. No, sorry. I, that is, that is full stop, no. I am I am not an ultra marathoner by any means. Um, I have signed up for the Sydney Marathon. I will you know, I'll train for that. But the idea of The Barclay is too much.
[00:44:09] Coté: Well, we'll work up to it. We'll get you said. Well, my recommendation is a application I didn't really understand, uh, until I used it, but it's called file router, of course, camel case. I think you'll appreciate this, Matt, but I think Brandon will. So you're using your agent and it's always making these markdown files. And every now and then you're like, I would like to see this rendered, maybe in marked, or whatever's rendering marked down, but maybe I'd like to edit it. And so you don't know because macOS has the default thing so you click on it and it opens in one of those 2 things.
[00:44:44] Coté: And then sometimes you want to edit it or view it, so you right click on it, and you're like, open in and you select the thing to open it in. That's what file router does. You click on it, and it opens up this, it's going to sound terrible, but it opens up this little disk on the on your screen, and you can just go up or down to select the application you want to open it in. So in my case, it generates markdown files, your AI thing. And sometimes I want to see it, and sometimes I want to open it in sublime. So by default,
[00:45:13] Matt: .
[00:45:13] Coté: I have it open and marked, so I can see it rendered. But sometimes I want to edit it. So instead of going to, uh, marked, it go, I set it up to always open and file router, and then I just press the down arrow and enter, and it opens in sublime, and I can edit it. And you can imagine all the different file types you have, you could set up options to route it to which application you wanted to open it in. And it made no sense to me when I read it. But I bought this bundle from the Brett Turps, the guy, because I was, not thinking well when I do these kind of things. And I started using it, and it was great. So check it out, file router. It's a good, uh, it's a good way to open up lots of different, uh, use different type of applications for the files that you want to open. If you
[00:45:58] Matt: a,
[00:45:58] Coté: find yourself doing that,
[00:45:59] Matt: I've
[00:45:59] Coté: you should get it.
[00:46:01] Matt: got a similar recommendation. It's a, it's an app called Browser Ferry that will let you pick which browser to open something in. So
[00:46:09] Coté: Oh,
[00:46:09] Matt: you click
[00:46:10] Coté: same
[00:46:10] Matt: on a link and
[00:46:10] Coté: thing.
[00:46:11] Matt: same
[00:46:11] Coté: Yes.
[00:46:12] Matt: thing, because, because, you know, when I was using one laptop for work and personal, it'd be like, this is going to the work browser, this one's going to the personal
[00:46:20] Coté: huh, uh huh.
[00:46:22] Brandon: like
[00:46:22] Coté: Yeah,
[00:46:22] Brandon: it.
[00:46:22] Coté: yeah. You know, what was it like, hippies go to the back? That's what's going on here. Anyways, speaking of hippies can go to the front of the back, wherever they want to be here on software to find talk. This has been another software defined talk episode. If you want to see the show notes, which includes links of things we talked about, many things that we didn't, those recommendations. You can go to softwaredefinedalk.com slash 594 and find those. And with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye bye.
[00:46:49] Matt: Bye.
[00:46:51] Brandon: Well, for everyone that made it through the stream, this was a big one. Good job, Brett. I think it looks like you made it through both of them. amazed.
[00:46:59] Matt: And
[00:46:59] Brandon: So
[00:47:00] Matt: taco
[00:47:00] Brandon: in
[00:47:00] Matt: burrito.
[00:47:01] Brandon: Taco Frito, you were truly loyal if you made it through the devil's stream today. So, God willing, we'll be back next week. We're probably with different technical problems, but maybe it will be just as much fun.