Zach Diamond 0:08 Welcome to catalyzing classroom change, a podcast from the modern classrooms project. Kareem Farah 0:19 We're gonna go ahead and get started. First of all, if you don't know me, my name is cream Farah, I'm the co founder and CEO of the modern bathrooms project. And you are actually joining the first of what we hope to be a monthly series titled catalyzing classroom change. The whole idea of this is to be sort of a discussion podcast style format, where I facilitate a discussion with some incredible leaders that I respect and I've worked with, and I've run into in the K 12 education space, to just talk about how we actually create change in classrooms. I think a frustration I've had and I know many leaders have had across the country, is this feeling like? Yes, we're talking about change, we're talking about the vision of what we want to create in classrooms and in districts and in schools. But are we actually seeing things move across a continuum? are we actually seeing the change happen? And is it sustainable? And is it scaling. So that's the point of this kind of series. And this first session, the first one we've ever done is called systems level change through bottom up innovation. And the whole idea today is to really have a comprehensive conversation about how we can create change that's systematic, within a school within a district within a state within a country. But by starting with bottom up innovation by starting with the power of what it means to create innovation from the ground, and then bringing that up and scaling it up. And I have two of my favorite people on this particular webinar podcast session with me. Two people I've known I think that since I've really been doing this work at the modern classrooms project, and I've met them at very different stages in my career. And they're people I respect to understand what it means to create change. You've seen a lot of different types of change in K 12 education and are going to bring some really powerful voices to this discussion. So before we get started, I want to introduce the folks I have on this particular session. I'm going to start with Carmen Coleman. I met Carmen Coleman because Carmen saw our model in action in Jefferson County Public Schools when she was the chief academic officer in there. We met I immediately knew that Carmen understood what it meant to just create change within a community and to think differently about classroom instruction. Now she's now I'm gonna say your title, right? Because you got quite the title Carmen, you are the chief of learning and leading at Oh, VEC in Kentucky. I want to give you Carmen the time and space to just introduce yourself, share a little bit about your journey in the K 12 education space to date. And then I'll introduce Tom, so go ahead, Carmen. Sure. So Speaker 3 2:51 I am started my career as an elementary teacher. I taught fourth grade in the classroom where my mother taught first grade when I attended elementary school, and that same building, went on to become an academic coach. And then a principal even though I said I was never going to do that and really had no interest in that. And then I had an opportunity to go to Fayette County, which is Lexington, Kentucky, that's the second largest district in Kentucky, as a director of elementary schools. Then went to a little community called Danville and awesome place in Kentucky, we have about 2000 students served as superintendent there and then spent some time at the University of Kentucky. And then most recently found myself as chief academic officer in Jefferson County, which is the largest school district in Kentucky and, and about 29th In the US, depending on the day. Now, I serve in a role where so my career has really been about questioning things that didn't make sense to me even as a young new teachers things in school that we did just it just sometimes didn't make sense. And so I asked questions, I probably got on a lot of people's nerves. But especially since Danville I've really been focused on change. And knowing that if we school is the way it is, is impossible, and obsolete. And so yeah, I'm excited to talk about that. Now I have the opportunity to work with 15 districts in our region. JCPS is still one of those so act in close touch still with them and not I'm excited to be here. Kareem Farah 5:01 Thanks, Carmen, extremely excited to hear your thoughts on all these questions. And just so everybody knows, like, we haven't rehearsed these questions. I'm just gonna tell you all that now, I'll share a little bit more about this format. But we're hopefully going to talk about some provocative ideas and education and Carmen's voice in this space and your your deep desire to create changes is something that I think we're all excited to hear about. Tom, Tom knows me better than most people do in K 12. Education. That's because Tom saw me teach. So when I first met Tom, Tom, I don't actually recall how you found out about us. But you came and visited Eastern Senior High School where myself and my co founder, had really created the modern classrooms model. So you saw it in its earliest stages. And I actually remember touring you around the building, showing you our classrooms that we had initially kind of supported and the teachers who are implementing so you've actually seen our organization grow from very, very small, to much, much bigger than it was when you first saw it. And I was always just captivated by your perspective and understanding of the larger landscape of K 12. Ed, particularly in blended and personalized learning. So Tom, do you want to give a brief background on who you are what you've done in the space and your experience? Sure. Speaker 4 6:11 And let me say, first off, it's a pleasure to be here with both of you looking forward to this conversation. So in terms of background, I guess I'll start by saying, I got an education coming out of my undergrad degree as a middle school math teacher in Kansas City, Missouri. And, as a teacher, I felt very committed to making a difference for my students, being the kind of teacher that could help improve their, their opportunities and their life trajectories. But I really struggled. And some of that is just the struggles inherent of being a new teacher, it's always hard, no matter, no matter who you are in those first couple of years, but in some way, but I really got stuck on some of the struggles seemed like they were more systemic, and that I would just have to try and outpace the system, in order to make the difference I wanted to make. So I often tell the story of you know, in one class, my second year teaching, I had one kid who have lots of support at home, had all the things you know, a kid needs to do well in school. And he was bored, and he was misbehaving in my class, because I wasn't challenging him enough. But then at the same time, in that exact same class, I had this other kid, who, when I would drive home after school, each day, I would drive through his neighborhood, and I would see him bouncing from one house to the next, looking for where am I going to sleep tonight? Where am I going to get dinner tonight. So kid who was dealing with homelessness, and he only came to school, maybe like three days a week, often showed up late when he came to class, he was super earnest wanted to sit down and just was like, teach me I'm ready. But almost everything I said, just went right over his head. And I remember just thinking like, how is it that I'm supposed to even get a read on what these two students need, let alone like just them feed them is a challenge. But then I've got a whole host of students that range in between those two. And even if I had a good read on where they're all at, how do I in the one hour, I have class with them, really give them what they need. And, you know, I went to professional development sessions on differentiated instruction, differentiated instruction, and it sounded like a great idea, but actually implementing it, and implement it in a way that would really tackle these challenges. Just, it seemed practically impossible. So I left teaching kind of with the thought of like, okay, I can either like spend my career really trying to outpace the system. Or maybe I can find a way to get involved in helping improve the system, and found my way to the Clayton Christensen Institute. Our organization was founded by a guy who studied Clayton Christensen, he was a professor at Harvard, who studied innovation across a lot of different sectors. And, and one of the things he had study was K through 12 education. And using his theories that he developed about how innovations unfold, he developed some insight around well, what could lead to more student centered learner centered K through 12 education. So I found about found out about the Institute found my way here. And I've spent roughly the last 10 years studying kind of from a systems level, what are the conditions that make it so that new models of education that are better than the ones we have right now can emerge can improve over time and can eventually scale so they're not just like niche solutions here and there, but but widespread across the system? So that's the work that I tackle, and I will say, I don't remember how many years it was ago, cremate, but I think it was maybe 2018 When we, when we met tell me if my dates are off there. But visiting groups classroom was one of the most exciting things I've done in many ways, because, you know, reflecting back on my experience, he was a high school math teacher. I was a middle school math teacher, and I walked in his classes like wow, I I wish I had had this when I was teaching, because this is exactly the solution I was looking for as a teacher. So anyway, we I think we've been, you know, had a lot in common and a lot to talk about ever since. And I'm excited to be here. Kareem Farah 10:11 Fabulous. Thanks. Thanks, Tom. And obviously, for the folks out there listening. It's clear, hopefully why brought these two individuals on here you have a fabulous leader who has led school systems and in a fabulous leader in the research space to understand what it really means to create this type of change. So let's dig into this discussion. If this is going to be a back and forth, if you're in the audience, like drop questions in the chat, we may ask them just like a live as we're going. That's kind of the point. This is supposed to feel like you're just in a living room with some folks sharing some cool ideas about education that can hopefully, hopefully inspire change. The first thing I want to pose I'll pose this first question. We'll start with you, Carmen. Like what's the standard way that innovative ideas scale in K 12? Education? I think that's kind of a big question. And oftentimes, we don't actually ask enough, like when something powerful is introduced to the system, how is it scaled? How is it usually scaled, at least historically, in your experience? Speaker 3 11:06 Yeah, so formally, typically, what I've seen is there's a district, you know, a district plan for, you know, training teachers, you know, spreading the word providing support, and that is semi successful, but, but I have a friend who talks about spread instead of scale, right, you've probably heard that that's, that's teacher to teacher. And that's the most that is the the most impactful way that I've, I've seen things spread, you know, a teacher starts to really be interested in something and the kids really start to like what they're experiencing, and word gets out. And then others jump in. And that's, you know, there are lots of we know a lot about scale strategy, but innovation, true innovation, I think, really scales, teacher to teacher. Kareem Farah 12:16 I love that. And I know that's how you found out about the monitor classroom project, you're popping into a classroom and didn't even know what it was. And JCPS, someone learned it through the free course. Tom and your experience. I mean, you've seen a lot, you've studied a lot of different things that have scaled, in your experience, like what's the most common way or ways in which an idea, a tool, a curriculum, and instructional delivery model will make its way into the system and actually reach a lot of users? Speaker 4 12:42 Well, I think, I think it's worth actually parsing out a question a little bit and saying, like, how do people usually try and scale innovation versus how does innovation actually scale? Right? Because often, the way that people try to scale is through top down approaches. Sometimes it starts at the federal level, sometimes it starts in the state level, sometimes it starts with district administration. There's some idea that maybe has some research, backing, maybe not. But you know, there's a case made that like education should do this, or should adopt this thing or change in this way. And then people from the top try and create programs, and incentives to try and get the system to adopt those innovations. One of the interesting things about education, though, is that, I think, for good reason, teachers have a lot of autonomy, you know, they're constrained in terms of they're handed their roster, they're handed their their schedule, they're handed their curriculum, they're assigned to a particular grade level or subject. But when you close the door, you know, no one's checking on you to say, you know, did you teach Lesson three a at two o'clock on a Thursday? You know, it's kind of up to you to figure out what am I students need. And I think that it's important that it is that way, because students are human beings, they're not like raw materials, where we can just put them through some standardized process and just make sure the teachers are following the steps in the checklist and kids are going to get educated. You know, teachers need to have the ability to say, okay, what are my students need? Where are they at? What, what's the best way to design a lesson design activities that will meet their needs, but that also makes it so that top down reform is really hard, and doesn't doesn't work? Because teachers have the autonomy and in some way, say like, I don't know if this makes sense. Okay, I'll check the boxes that they're telling me to check. To not you know, be in the bad graces of my administration. But there's a big difference between teachers adopting because they're truly enthusiastic about this is really solving my problems versus teachers just adopting with the mindset of like, oh, yeah, this too shall pass. You know, a new administration comes every three to five years. I just have to wait this one out and, you know, get back and then eventually I can just get back to doing things the way I know it works for me. I'm. So I will say this, one of the things I find fascinating about modern classrooms is how it's not a top down approach. It's really a bottom up, bottoms up approach. We did some some research a handful of years ago, where we interviewed teachers to ask them why, you know, why do you have to draft a new instructional practice for a new tool. And we found there were four different what we call jobs to be done are basically four different pathways or four different narratives that lead to lead to adoption. And different teachers are going to be in different circumstances at different times in their career. And in those different pathways. Some of those pathways lead to huge appetite for big changes, some of the pathways are like, No, I just mostly what I'm doing works, I just want incremental improvements on what I'm doing. Some of the one of the pathways is, hey, this doesn't make sense to me, but I don't, I don't want to be in trouble for pushing back. So I'm just gonna kind of go along at the minimal compliance level. So anyway, what I find fascinating is instead of top down approaches that try and push and innovation into teachers that may be in any of those different pathways, and some of them are going to have more appetite than others, modern classrooms, I think it was really designed for solving teachers particular problems, and helping them and then also designed in a way that it's, it's not about pushing the top down, it's about making it available. So that when it truly does solve a teacher's problem, it gets traction. And I'll say the broader research on like education reforms that actually stick shows that the ones that truly stick around are the ones that have to solve teachers practical problems, offer a you know, frame the problem for them and offer a compelling solution and the tools to go with that solution. And if it doesn't do that, it doesn't extra stick around. Yeah, I Kareem Farah 16:47 mean, you know, one thing that we found, I think, at the modern classroom project consistently is like, we need to be able to provide actionable, actionable solutions to teachers, and it doesn't, it can't feel like it's going to go out there for a year or two and then disappear. I think teachers we know are spread so incredibly thin. And when we introduce a new idea, and that new idea just feels like it's part of the new strategy that needs to get executed, and everybody has to do it, there's going to be lackluster implementation of that idea. And there's not a deep belief, that idea is going to stick around, because we know that strategic plans and visions often change. So that idea of solving a problem for teachers is really interesting to me. But I also think there's something really interesting about the stickiness of an idea. And like how do you actually get an idea to stick and resonate with folks, Carmen when you've seen things scale in your communities? What what usually leads to ideas sticking? So let's just assume I think we all agree here that there are clear limitations to top down innovation. If we just say at the top, if superintendent Carmen Coleman goes, you know, starting tomorrow, everyone's going to build instructional videos, they're going to self paced their lessons, and then they're going to grade for mastery. I don't think Carmen Coleman would would stay there for very long, right? It wouldn't be a row, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So how do you make an idea stick? Like, what are the ideas that really do stick for educators? And why do you think they stick? Speaker 3 18:11 I think that, I mean, that was a great point about it solves a problem. You know, when I started as superintendent, I'm so fortunate, I had an incredibly forward thinking Board, who really gave us the permission and really the expectation to go out there and see what progressive schools are doing. And let's figure out what school needs to be today. And so we had all this freedom. My teachers, we went, you know, we went to High Tech High School, we went to the art school in New York, we, I mean, we were changed by those experiences. And I remember, after those visits, my teachers would say, that's incredible. It's incredible. But how do we get above what I call the turbulence? You know, how do we get above kids are still going to have to take standardized tests, they're still and so we used to talk about what, what is the solution, there has to be a solution to tame that turbulence. And this is the solution that with the modern classroom project, I mean, I know we're talking about bigger innovation, you know, all kinds of innovation, but that was a solution. It is a solution. What and when I talk about it, what I say is, this is number one, this is not a mandate. In fact, if you're not super interested in feeling like a seven year old on Christmas Eve, go away from this that's not but if you're excited about this Let's, let's explore, you know, it's not a have to it's not a curriculum. But I see it as a turbulence tamer. So that you can, you don't have to figure all that stuff out the management and the you can get above the turbulence to do what only great teachers can do. That's what sticks. I mean, T joy is what sticks, right? And that's what we have to have. And now more than ever, I mean, people aren't. People are, you know, the teachers aren't coming. I mean, they're, we're facing a problem that's gonna get worse before it gets better. And so that's what sticks what helps me tame the turbulence so that I can get to why I thought the things I thought I would be doing when I signed up to be a teacher. Right? Kareem Farah 20:58 Well, and I think that's often when we talk about teacher burnout. In particular, I think we really miss diagnose the problem, sometimes. My experience has been both personally, when I was experiencing burnout, I know I experienced burnout, you really year four of my classroom experience, which actually is kind of in line with a lot of the research is like, that's when it starts, right? You've been there for enough years to know what it means to be a teacher and the challenges you face. You haven't stuck around long enough to find out how to make it sustainable. And you start to be like, Wait, can I last doing this work. And one of the things I always found just really alarming was like how unsuccessful I felt at what I thought I was supposed to do in the classroom, right? I would wake up every day and just kind of look around and go, I thought I was supposed to come in here and work with students building strong relationships, I thought I was supposed to come in here and actually work with students in a data driven way to address their lack of understanding on a particular concept. But what I'm really doing is behavior management, I'm getting frustrated, they're getting frustrated. And so you kind of leave and feel like all right, people aren't excited about my classroom. I'm not excited about doing this. And I can't do this for the rest of my life. And this is not my vision for what teaching and learning is. So maybe I need to think of something different. And I felt like a failure. And it wasn't because someone told me I was a failure. It's kind of obvious how you feel. In that setting, you just fundamentally feel like a failure. I think one thing you brought up, Carmen, that I think is really, really important. When we, when we saw our model scale, initially, we brought people to our classrooms. The first folks that ever learned the modern classrooms model, some of which are on modern classroom staff today, you know, they watched the model in action to see it. And I think that was part of the way that we calm the turbulence. And I guess my question is, how do you show that type of change in a bottom up way? Like how do you create the conditions for people actually see what the innovation is supposed to look like? And this is either either you Tom or Carmen, like, how do you create the conditions to actually translate something on the grounds that's really positive and to something that people can see and then have an appetite to actually tackle and take on? Speaker 3 23:08 You know, for me, I mean, it's been really simple, in that I've gotten a lot of traction by putting a bright spotlight on the things you want to see. And then making it safe to try, you know, and saying, just try I mean, like it's not going to get worse, you don't have we don't have anything to lose here. Just try. And, and, and getting them there to see it, letting them talk to the teachers, main teachers. I mean, I've been in the classroom now for a million years. I feel like and so you know, I'm not who's credible to a teacher, really. I mean, other teachers are who need teachers need to talk to one another, you know, and they're brilliant. I just, I'm teaching a graduate class of teachers who are preparing to be principals. I mean, they, they are brilliant. They're brilliant humans, you know, and I need to be able Kareem Farah 24:15 to talk totally, I think elevating teacher voice is so, so powerful. I've even found myself, you know, I'm out of the classroom now since 2019. And yes, I can speak about my experience and my journey, but it's not as powerful as a teacher who's currently experiencing challenges. And that goes for any type of innovation hearing from an educator who's live solving problems that other educators are facing, I think creates that community and that confidence that this is something that I might want to try in a really powerful way. Tom, anything to add on that because I have a specific question to ask you about resistors but anything you want to add on that? Well, I Speaker 4 24:52 just want to share that what you both just articulated really resonates with some of the research out there. There's some research sociology that I think is articulated really well by a sociologist at the University of Pennsylvania named Davidson Tola, where he talks about how we have this notion that things spread just through exposure. The more billboards you see, the more Facebook ads, you see, the more celebrity endorsements you see, the more likely you are to adopt something. But he says that that holds true for things like memes, things where there's no risk and adopting it and sharing it. But whenever adopting something involves risk, whenever it involves uncertainty, whenever you're, you know, putting in whether it's money, or time or energy on the line, or your reputation on the line, the best predictor of whether you'll adopt is your social network. None of us have the time to research everything down to the detail. And so often what we do, and sometimes it's really subconscious is we look around and say, like, are there people like me that are doing this? Because if I see enough people that are like me doing this, then then I, then it seems credible. But if there's not a lot of people like me doing this, I'm going to I'm going to be skeptical, and like me really depends on the context you're in. Right? Like, you know, if you're a teacher, it's other teachers that are teaching and context similar to mine. You know, if you're, if it's in your family, it's like other fathers or other mothers that are like me. And so that's what I think is often overlooked, is that most people to when they're making that decision, like, should I pay attention to this? Should I jump in? It really depends on Do I see other people like me, people I know, people I relate to, that are also already doing that. So I think that's a powerful principle of adoption and spread and scale that is often overlooked. Kareem Farah 26:44 Well, and I think what's so I mean, we see this so consistently, because not only do we scale, you know, in districts, but we will scale in a region, right, so we'll scare across the state of Indiana will scale across the city of Chicago. And the way that implementers clump in groups is so interesting, because just like you described, there's a community of practice that organically builds off of a social network, it's three people going, Oh, hold on, I think we want to do this, and I want to do this with you. So let's get after it. And then that starts to create buzz. And will will often also see kind of the lone wolf, which is really interesting, because you need the lone wolf, who's out there who goes, I am willing to take this risk, regardless of whether someone's jumping into this with me. And those folks are so incredibly inspiring, because they'll bring it innovation to a community that really doesn't have an appetite for it yet. And that can be not just teachers, it can be principles to like a principal principal can be the lone wolf in a district who's like, No, we're bringing this into this district right now, whether we like it or not, and it creates that kind of snowball of change that I think is really, really important. And by the way, as a teacher, I totally understand this. Like that kind of community reliability is so huge. If I didn't feel like others around me, were willing to adopt something or endorse something, I knew I was taking a big risk, I was afraid of what happened was say, I was afraid of what parents would think I would be I was afraid of what students think, right? You have to build a tough skin to be able to do that. It's not easy. And you know, we often talk in modern classrooms and different folks folks elevate sort of the model, but I don't think I would have ever done this model. If it wasn't for my co founder being one floor up, right. We were together and this and in many ways, he was the the original kind of lone wolf. And I knew he had a community of practice of other folks across DC who were thinking along these lines, I think that's really, really compelling. I want to talk briefly now about resistors. Because if I'm someone listening, a district leader, a teacher, I'm going cool, bottom up, sounds great. Just give it to people who like it, they'll do it. But then we ask ourselves the question, how does that achieve systematic change? And how do we deal with folks who don't want to engage in that innovation? And it's in those discussions that you'll hear folks? They can be funders, they can be district leaders, they can be state leaders who will say no, at some point, you have to mandate it, you have to say to everyone, you got to do this. And I obviously have some resistance to that idea. I think our whole organization does, because we want to make sure that folks who implement our model feel supported and feel like they're opting into this type of innovation. But there's a legitimate point they're like, if it really is what's best for kids, if it really is what's best for students like what needs to be done to get the folks who are on the fence or not even on the fence, like completely against an idea to actually buy in. So I'm just kind of curious around and that this is a hard question. And if you think it's easy. Let's talk offline, because we need to figure that out. But I guess my initial question is, what do you think gets a risk resistor to kind of move across this continuum and assume that just a teacher telling them about it didn't work, right? Because we know that we can do that. But that doesn't get everyone in the room. And I think if you answer this question, you may not have a larger theory around this. But maybe an example of when a resistor has actually made the switch on something, someone who you knew in the room consistently was like, No, I'm not about it, I don't get it, I don't buy it. And then something converted their kind of opinion on this into believing that this was something that they wanted to get involved in and did obviously not specific to modern classrooms, Carmen, maybe you can start. And this can be leaders or teachers, obviously, because I know, you've worked with a lot of principals and a lot of district leaders, in addition to teachers. Speaker 3 30:42 You know, it's interesting, when you ask that question, I have really not invested a lot of time and naysayers. I have, in my experience, there have been so many who have been willing, that if I can get to all of them. I, you know, that has been my focus. Ah, sure, at some point you do have to do especially someone who is just trying flat out to sabotage. But the longer you can stay away from a mandate. I think the I think the, the better the likelihood of success. Um, I believe most people want to be on a winning team. And as teachers, even the most difficult of personalities, as they went into this, for some reason, that surely had something to do with wanting to do awesome things with kids. I mean, I have to hang on to that belief anyway. And so you're gonna start to see, I mean, kids are different in this class than in mind. So you just start to be, you know, you. So I guess so to answer that, and even in JCPS, I mean, we have a collective bargaining union, they're a very powerful union. in the country, really, and, you know, just like with this, I mean, I said from the start, this is not a mandate in any way. It's not a curriculum. It's not, it's just if you want to, and if you don't want to, that's okay. But that alone, I think makes people super curious. Like, well, there is a there is a human. There's an element there. It's that FOMO, right, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna be I'm gonna miss something. You know, so I just I think there's a long way to go before we need to start mandating some things. I mean, you you know, it all context matters. But I just think we have a there's a lot of people that would come along. If they if they knew more about, you know, what's happened? Kareem Farah 33:21 Totally, I it makes a ton of sense to me. One thing I often tell folks is like, let's focus on getting everyone that's willing first. We we've jumped fast from like, the first movers to defectors, and maybe let's focus on expanding the pie of the coalition of willing because there's obviously a ton of difference between, hey, I'm on the fence. And hey, I'm thinking about it. And hey, I actually actively disagree with this. And I don't know that we actually capture the full kind of pie of people ready to do this type of innovation before we go into resistors. Tom, any thoughts for you on sort of the community of folks that push back, who don't want to do this type of innovation? And like, what, what gets those folks going and examples where you've seen that work? Speaker 4 34:07 Yeah. Well, let me start with a story from this research we did on teachers that we're adopting new practices and new tools. One of the teachers we interviewed was initially in that pathway or that job to be done. I mentioned that was about I'm only doing this to comply. I'm only doing it because it's been mandated. She was a kindergarten teacher. She had started her career a few decades ago that left teaching for two decades to go raise her own children and then came back to teaching. When she started teaching computers in schools are not a thing. And when she restarted when she came back, her school was doing this blended learning stuff and she was not a tech person. She was like, This just seems like a nightmare. Seems like a headache. Why do we put why are we putting computers in a kindergarten classroom they should be you know, cutting paper and coloring and stuff like that. So she went along with it, she didn't, you know, she was fresh back from, you know, returning to the profession didn't want to, you know, didn't want to create a scene pushing back on it. But she was really not into it. And initially, it was just like, Okay, I'll wheel out the laptop cart for 30 minutes, two days a week pounding my head against the wall, while i deal with login issues. And then as soon as those 30 minutes are done, put it back in the cart and get them out of the way. So we can get back to what real teaching and classroom instruction looks like. So super resistant, very much in the camp of like, I'm just waiting this out to this too, shall pass. And as much as I can even just do teaching the way that I know, it shouldn't be done based on the way I've done it for years. But what clicked for her, and where she shifted from that like compliance oriented pathway, or job to actually being excited about it was when she saw success, it was when she saw, hey, I'm using I'm using this program called Lexia. And it's telling me where my students are at with their reading. And it's actually really informative, because now I can, I can be smarter about how I formed my small groups. And I can set up a rotation model where some kids go on computers, and that creates the time for me to pull kids and work in small groups. And so when she found it actually helping her, that totally shifted her mindset. So I think that piece of like, you have to help teachers feel successful. If you can get them, you know, if a top down mandate happens, and it can get people to success fairly quickly, they'll buy in, but if they don't feel success very quickly, and don't get some early wins, they're going to just have even more resistance. Now I think kind of important caveat on all of this, though, is that success is in the eye of the beholder, it really depends on your circumstances, your struggles, what problems are you trying to solve? Again, going back to this research, I want to paint a contrast between two of the different pathways. One of them, and both of these led to like enthusiastic adoption, but to solve very different problems. The first pathway, and this was by far the most common one was, hey, I've been teaching for for a good while I've got you know, I've got it under my belt I've got I know what I'm doing, I feel successful most days. But I know that there's, you know, a handful of lessons every year that don't go well, or there's a handful of cancer and I just don't reach well. So I'm not interested in like overhauling what I do. But if you can give me like little things to add and enhance my instruction, I'll adopt them. But here's the key, it's got to be manageable. It can't be, you know, make me do hours and hours and hours PD and throw out a bunch of the stuff that I know works to adopt this new thing that I don't know about. That wasn't going to fly. So I had to be I had to be manageable and I had to help them do what they were already doing better. In contrast, was this other pathway that was far less common. In this other pathway, teachers did have the appetite to completely overhaul the way they've been doing teaching and learning. So adopt things like flexible blended learning, mastery based instruction. But to make that leap, to actually be willing to let go of things they've done in the past and adopt something totally different. They really had to have significant struggle. They didn't get there because oh, I have a lesson plan that doesn't go well. I have a couple students, I can't reach ahead to be like, I am so frustrated with this job that I'm ready to quit, unless I can find something new. So one teacher outside of Chicago told us he was an algebra teacher, he he was like 10, I think years from retirement. On on paper, his school was fine. His classroom was fine kids took his you know, took his class, took their tests, got into college, got good test scores on the state exams, but he was like, math feels soulless, because all I'm doing is doing problems on the board, they regurgitate back what I've shown them on a test, and then they totally forget it. We're not talking about how math is this powerful language. We're not talking about conceptual at math means we're just memorizing algorithms, and then forgetting them as soon as the test is done. And he was so frustrated, he was like, I'm ready to just just quit and go be a truck driver until I can reach retirement. Well, he wasn't a super tech savvy guy. But he had a colleague that went to a conference and discovered this thing called mastery based learning or competency based learning. And they thought, Hmm, this is interesting. But it also seems totally impractical because the version of competency based they learned about was a lot of manual paper based stuff that just seemed like how do you actually keep up with that? But then they found out about Khan Academy, and thought, hey, can we pair these two things together in a way that makes it doable? And actually transform the way we do our classrooms lets students be on individualized paths, you know, going at the pace and engaging in the materials in a way that that most ignites their passion. And that was a game changer. And he said, even though I didn't like technology, I wasn't new technology like this technology helped me solve this problem of making math truly, like meaningful and engaging for my students. And that, so he took off with it. Now, I got a little long winded explaining these two paths. But I want to say, you know, again, to go back to thing I said earlier, the problem is really in the eye of the beholder. So success is in the eye of the beholder, something that helps you succeed, and one pathway may not be the thing that helps you succeed and the other pathway. And so top down mandates can create a lot of pushback, because like, maybe it solves a problem for one pathway, but it's just a headache to the other pathway. Now that you've created this heavyweight, you've mandated it now you get huge pushback that eventually made like up in the whole thing. So again, to kind of reiterate on early things I mentioned is like, you've got to if you're going to do things from the top, it has to lead some for some early wins and early successes in the way that people define success, given the particular circumstances and their struggles that they're in. And if not, mandates aren't going to work. And you really, you know, your best approach is, how do I solve the challenges the struggles for one pathway, let people opt in when they see that this truly is a solution, and then expand it to help solve problems, other pathways. And one last thing I'll say, sorry, I have been talking so long on this one, but it's exciting. It's I think modern classrooms actually offers this really interesting solution where it's a solution that helps those people that are ready to like, I'm gonna quit, I'm so frustrated when I quit. Unless I can overhaul the way I've done things. Modern classrooms is that type of solution. It's like a radically new way of teaching. But the way that you've put, you know, develop the modern classroom model and created the resources around the model and the supports around the model that your nonprofit offers, helps at work, not only for those that are ready to transform, but the ones that are a little bit more like no, I just need incremental improvements that are manageable to adopt, like you've made this radically different model way more manageable to adopt, so they can actually solve for both pathways. Well, you know, what's interesting is, Kareem Farah 42:07 every time I speak to someone who's new to our model, particularly someone who is considering scaling a district leader, the most shocking data point is that the average educator who opts into our program has 14 years of classroom experience. And it's shocking to folks, when they hear that it's not shocking to me. And I think it's clearly aligned to the research you just described, which is an educator with 14 years of experience has a deep understanding of the limitations of what high quality instruction currently looks like in school systems. So they're looking for something that is going to allow them to throw this out, right, the, the amount of times a fabulous implementer will come to us and say, Hey, I've been teaching for 20 years. And the only thing I'm mad about is that I didn't know about this earlier, right? Because they've been kind of hustling in this really challenging model. And now this new one allows them to execute. Additionally, related to that, I actually think the like, getting an early win is a really interesting concept that's hard to pull off, because I think it's so true. And it's actually true in our classrooms. So a lot of times teachers will launch our model. And the first units will be a struggle. Because the students are frustrated, this is something new, they're confused, or flustered, the teacher is trying to figure out what do I do with myself my space and time. And what I often will say when I'm coaching teachers, particular on site visits is start simple and give the students an easy win. Because if they get an easy win on the model, then they're gonna go ooh, I get it. Now. Now I can tackle that harder content. But it starts with really rigorous content that's super hard to tackle and a brand new model, you're sort of combining two things at the same time. And you're obviously going to default to convenience, you're obviously going to default to the easier old school approach when that happens. So I think that's really, really interesting. And I think there's a lot to learn honestly, in the modern classroom side around how we can capture that better in our work. I want to talk well, first of all, if you're in the audience, and you want to drop some questions in the chat, we're gonna jump to questions in five minutes. Because naturally, whenever this happens, I completely lose track of time, and we're 15 minutes away from this webinar ending. But what I want to talk about briefly real quick is just like, if I'm a district leader, I might be a little bit frustrated in hearing about all this bottom up innovation, because I might be thinking great, let's say we build this coalition of the willing but what's my role in this equation? Like what do I do to actually make this a living and breathing part of what happens in my school system where I might be a state leader thinking the same thing. So, Carmen, just in your eyes, what's the role that districts leadership state leadership is supposed to play in a particular environment like this like how Our our school and district leaders and state leaders supposed to turn this classroom level innovation into something that actually leads to scaled innovation. And then after this question, I'm seeing some questions pop in the chat. So I'm just gonna start addressing those as well. Speaker 3 45:14 You know, I think that we're all one thing I have found interesting over the years in being a leader, but even but really before that, too, when I was, you know, work as I've worked for different leaders, teachers want the leaders approval. Overall, they want the leaders approval, even if they think the leader is terrible. They want their approval. So one thing that leaders can really do that seems really simple, is just get in there and learn, get in there and talk to the teachers, talk to the kids find out, you know, what's happened, I mean, that be be very present, and understand what teachers need. I mean, I always say, and again, I'm not my own classroom now. But the day that I lose that perspective is the day that I am out. You know, you, you've got to be present with kids and teachers to know what is happening and get out of the way. I mean, that is sometimes even. I mean, I'm Miss progressive, I feel like is it? Yes. And I've worked with a team right now of the most incredible people I've ever worked with over I mean, just amazing. And, like, I have to get out of their way. Sometimes, you know, so, you know, I would say learn support, highlight. And things are spread like crazy, you know? Kareem Farah 46:55 Yep. Yep. Tom, any thoughts on what the role of the leader is in this scenario, to really create this space, because I think Carmen spot on, part of it is actually getting out of the way. It's like endorsing, we're creating the space for the teachers to actually be the loudest voices. Because a lot of times we don't do that, right. The teachers don't have the loudest voices, and they're the innovators. Are there any other things you can think of the district leaders and state leaders need to do to create the conditions for this type of change? Speaker 4 47:25 Well, Carmen mentioned this earlier, but I think the idea of permission is really important. Like not, I think teachers are often afraid of like, well, if I do this, and it doesn't go perfectly, you know, swimmingly in the first attempt, am I going to get deemed am I going to get criticized? Is it gonna affect my my job evaluation? So I think in addition to like, making it available, encourage you but not mandating? You know, giving teachers just the cover that like, yeah, you know, you may not have it like running perfectly right out of the gate, and that's okay. You know, you have the room to try this, and be supported as you're figuring it out. I think. I think that is a really key piece as well. Kareem Farah 48:11 I totally agree. I think people don't talk enough about the fact that to innovate, it takes time, and that you're going to make mistakes. And I think that educators quite frequently live in fear of that mistake happening, and then the consequence being applied. And just giving educators the true and honest ability to take risks without feeling like there's a consequence is so powerful. And I can't tell you how many times I've talked to teachers who were like, the first few units were the most miserable units I've ever implemented. And now I feel like I'm running best classroom I've ever created. And you were able to do that because you were given the conditions to fail forward, where if you weren't, you would have pulled right back within the first, you know, two, three weeks of trying out something new. And that's really a problem. Speaker 3 48:57 Leaders cream this is I think this is really important to say, you've got to give teachers opportunities to talk to one another and share. And that does not happen enough. And I believe that's why education has been so slow to change. In many ways, teaching is isolated. And you've got to give it in fact, one of my students from my class who is a newish teacher is on tonight, I think or he was and he is so excited about the modern classroom project. So of course when he talked to me I was like, let me tell you what I know about that. And I so hope his principal will give him the opportunity to share and I believe he will and I you know that we've got to listen to the teachers and give them an a network and a place to talk and share err, Kareem Farah 50:00 I could not agree more. It's actually so hard to do. By the way, I think we need to be honest too, with leaders about that's not an easy task. Schedules are packed, people are busy, like one of the things we've noticed is we'll go out to a district where we've trained 200 teachers. But if you ask a teacher, they have no idea who the other 200 are. And when we think about that, it's like, that's a hard problem to solve. It sounds simple and easy initially, like what do you mean there's just turn it but how do you actually get those people to connect and collaborate? Not as easy as it appears? But I totally agree. It's so so impactful. I want to get to some of these questions because we have nine minutes left, the first one is from Tomiko. Hey, Tamika. First of all, I know Tomiko quite well, and she was a fabulous implementer out in Tulsa, and to Miko asked the question, what types of changes? I mean, this is, before I even read it, I'm like, get ready, folks. What types of changes would you say need to happen within teacher preparation programs to empower teachers to make schoolwide or even system wide change happen? Anyone want to take a shot at this? I have a lot of opinions sometimes on teacher preparation. And I don't necessarily know that I want to say of all right now, but any initial thoughts from you all about what needs to change with teacher preparation? Speaker 4 51:16 I mean, a simple one would be offer part of the preparation, at least option for teachers to learn about things like mastery based learning, blended learning, self directed learning, you know, make those things that teachers get exposed to, and can try out in their teacher teacher preparation instead of things they only find out about later, when they're in the field struggling. I think that's that's not like the end all be all solution. But I think that is a really simple first step that a lot of teacher preparation Kareem Farah 51:48 programs can take. I mean, I agree, I think one of the things that I find very interesting about teacher prep programs is they're actually not about learning different ways to teach. They're very much so like, almost like a history textbook, it feels sometimes you're learning about all these series of facts and research that feel very distant from the classroom experience. And I feel like a lot of times, educators leave teacher prep programs blindsided by the realities of what actually happens on the grounds, which I think is really challenging anything to add their comment. I know, we've talked about this at length before. Speaker 3 52:19 Yeah, I just think, you know, it's so important for teacher prep programs to have strong relationships with the school districts, where they're where their, you know, graduates go and, and keep a relationship so that you know, what's happening, you're able to know what kinds of things that that they say they need, once they're out, and what are the district? What are the district faults, say, and in the principal's saying that they need? Kareem Farah 52:52 Totally, I think that's spot on to like, direct communication with what's actually happening on the grounds as well. I want to elevate a question. Hey, Jasmine, Jasmine, in Australia, by the way, I love this question. I think it's something we don't talk about enough. And it's challenging, but it's so critical, and can actually lead to some of this tipping point of scale. What about buying an investment from parents and guardians? How do you recommend navigating those relationships? When it came? Surely it comes with lack of understanding of teaching and learning. I think this is such an interesting question. How do we bring parents and guardians up to speed on the types of change we're trying to create? How do we build buy in from them? Carmen, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Having I'm sure navigated a ton of challenging questions around this. What are your thoughts? Speaker 3 53:42 You know, I think, like with anything else, it's so important to be very transparent. with parents and with your community, here's what we're learning about. And here's what we're here's what we're trying. And here's what's happening so far. You know, I believe so strongly in the power of student led conferences, and ask them what an opportunity to get parents in and let them see. Let them see. And if they see, I mean, what, what I saw my introduction to the modern classroom project was this classroom. That was fun. I mean, like, all the things you want to see productive, the kids were engaged, they were collaborating, they were they were working on all what they needed for their learning. And, I mean, you can't, you can't argue with that. The teachers getting more time with your kid. I mean, but you got to be transparent. You got to over communicate. Kareem Farah 54:50 And I love the over communicate piece. The other thing I'd say is, listen, last like one of the things I think can happen with pairing rant concerns as we quickly get defensive. And I think that that's a really dangerous approach. Like we're serving parents and guardians, kids. And if they have a concern, it comes from something right. If it comes from an old school understanding of instructional models, yeah, let's have a conversation about why you misunderstand this. If your concern is coming, because your student came home and actually said something they didn't like, let's talk about that. Is your student not like something? Because they're not engaging in the behaviors and the mindsets and the activities that are actually good for learning? Or are they credible, and have you not done a great job supporting that student, and I realized very quickly that when I was very defensive, and afraid of parent concerns, that's when I was super, super reactive. And it led me down a very bad pathway. But when I was open to their thoughts and took them seriously, it was actually quite easy to explain, you know, what their misunderstanding was, or where I wasn't being clear enough with the students about the value. The biggest misconception we, for example, see in modern classrooms is parents will think that the teacher is not teaching anymore, right? It's like, because the teacher isn't doing what traditional teachers do, which is stand in front of the room and kind of put on a performance, then we're not teaching anymore. And what we found is, well, if you can explain to the parent and even the student, you now have more time with me, not less than suddenly, eyes open wide. So hold on a second, that sounds like teaching, right. But if you don't have that firm understanding and grasp of what's going on, it's gonna be very difficult to make that super clear. It's 457, East Coast time, I want to be sensitive of time, I want to thank you both a ton for your time, I thought this was a fabulous discussion. And for all the readers out there and listeners out there, this will get transformed. This will be a webinar that we'll put out, that can access will likely turn to a blog, and then also be a podcast series. And this will be the first episode which I'm fired up about. I want to thank you, Tom. And I want to thank you, Carmen for just like being here and sharing your perspective. You all bring such a wealth of knowledge and experience the space in such a different perspective and how we think about these challenging questions. And to the listeners out there who dropped questions in the chat. Thank you so much. So we'll close there. I appreciate you both. And thank you, everyone, for being here and have a great night. evening, everybody. Unknown Speaker 57:23 Thank you. Thank you. Zach Diamond 57:30 Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to check out this episode's show notes in your podcast player or on the web. For more information about the speakers in today's show. You can learn more about the modern classrooms project at WWW dot modern classrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model for free at Learn dot modern classrooms.org. You can follow us on social media at modern class proj. That's p r o j and that'll do it for us. So be sure to tune in next time for another episode of catalyzing classroom change. Transcribed by https://otter.ai