Carolyn Ford:
Welcome to Tech Transforms. I'm your host, Carolyn Ford, and today, I'm joined by Dr. Will Roper, one of the architects of Defense digital transformation. From leading the Air Forces's move to the cloud during COVID to launching swarms of micro drones, I'm not kidding.
Dr. Roper doesn't just talk innovation. He builds it. Now as CEO of Istari Digital, he's asking, what if AI can't scale because the internet was never designed to support it?
Welcome to Tech Transforms, Dr. Roper.

Will Roper:
Thanks so much, Carolyn. You are welcome to call me Will during the podcast.
I've been out of government service for quite a few years, and I enjoy the world of tech where everyone's on a first name basis.

Carolyn Ford:
I love that. And it's like Will Striker from Star Trek. So there we go.

Will Roper:
My wife a huge Star Trek fan, so she would love that.

Carolyn Ford:
There you go.
Well, I want to I mean, let's just start with what if AI can't scale because the internet was never designed to support it. I'm not gonna lie. I I was thinking about what we were going to talk about and that statement of yours.
I haven't heard it and before now, and I thought, wow, why have I not heard it before now? So talk to me about what's broken and what you're proposed fixes.

Will Roper:
It wasn't obvious to me either, Carolyn.
I had a front row seat on bringing new technology into the world of aerospace and defense. And like any good problem, you see it clearly when you look back on it. You never really see it clearly when you're facing it.
So to give your viewers a little bit of backdrop, like I was there, I was the creator of Project Maven when I worked for the Secretary of Defense, which was the first AI program for the entire defense.
And I still remember having to put together a decision breeze for Secretary Bob Work, explaining why this machine learning business was different than all the other automatic target recognition programs of the 70s, 80s and 90s. Why we were not going to throw good money after bad chasing this.
Thankfully, I was able to convince Bob that this was really something different and we should do it. It ended up growing up into something far bigger than my original Pathfinder, but most people know it because of what ended up happening with the performer.
But the real story of Maven is that it showed me that the military was not ready for the Internet, much less AI, was running around with Eric Schmidt.
We didn't have a cloud, we didn't have any development environments. We didn't even know who could code for us in the Department of Defense.
And so when I moved over and joined the Air Force and later Space Force as the acquisition executive, I took those lessons to heart and said, "We got to build the Internet."
So we needed to adopt a cloud. We needed to adopt a development platform so we could write code for our missions. We needed to know who could code within our ranks and we needed to know who was a good code or outside in industry.
All of these were things that we had to do before we could even attempt AI.
And at the very end of my government service, we finally put the first artificial intelligence on a military jet, the U2 spy plane and let it have control.
So that gets the headline, but what the real walk was behind the scenes was just building the infrastructure.
And that has been the scene for me since leaving government service is that the infrastructure that I needed in defense simply isn't there to do just software for cyberphysical systems, much less AIs.
That's what I mean by the.. The internet was not meant for an industry that's highly regulated, that's highly fragmented, but it could be if there was a different kind of infrastructure that didn't want you to consolidate all of your data together to get efficiencies.
That's amazing for us as individuals. It's amazing for many industries that can accept centralization. But most industries can't.
Everyone owns their IP, governments have levels of classification. You are not going to bring that stuff together. And a bureaucracy, which often is a pejorative, is there for reasons, checks and balances, that separation of authority.
And so if you look at the internet, what makes it great, you puts your data in the cloud, you have access to it everywhere. You have analytics and AI running there that you could never have running locally. It makes our lives powerful.
But the second you need it to break up and federate, the internet doesn't have any solutions for you, and of course, that's equally true if you want to break it up and do AI between the different data sources.
Well, that is the aerospace problem. That's the problem I wanted to be able to solve when I was in government service, and the tech just wasn't there.
And it took me about half a year after weed and government service to look backwards on the problem and finally see it for what it is. It wasn't an issue with us per se.
It was an issue with the infrastructure that we had, and that was the problem to go fix.

Carolyn Ford:
How long have you been in private sector?

Will Roper:
So it was in government service for 10? Almost. I'm getting close to five years, four and a half now out.
And so it's, you know, I did a little bit of advising in the last administration on the defense innovation Board.
So I did have an official role and kept base, but it's very different advising versus doing.
But I really enjoyed being on the outside because when you're in the Pentagon every day, you get further and further away from currency in technology.
So if I do end up back in, which, you know, no one's offering a gig at any time in the near future, I'll at least feel like I'm current again, like I was when I worked for Secretary Carter, when he was the secretary of Defense.

Carolyn Ford:
What you're saying about the internet, like, I feel like it sounds like it needs to be retrofitted. Is that even possible? I mean, the internetÑfor lack of a better analogyÑlike, it's a virus.
It's it's out. It's done.
So it reminds me of, I've heard you, I've seen you use the phrase sovereign data territories when you say federalize and break it up. Is that what you're talking about?
And how, I mean, how do you do this to this vast new world that's been around now for 25 years?

Will Roper:
I'm going to answer the question, but I want to own up frontÑfor a long time, I had no idea what the answer was.
All I knew, when I was in government service and then transitioned out, was that there were two different worlds living alongside each other. And I lived this when I was in federal service.
I would wake up each morning and in my personal life, I was powerful. I was connected to everything. I could check all my finances. I could crank my car without going outside. Everything was connected.
And then I would go into my public service life, and I'd be connected to almost nothingÑrunning, you know, $60 billion a year and over $5,000 airplanes and satellites. But yet, I didn't feel as powerful from a connection standpoint as I did just sitting at home.
These two different worlds lived alongside each other.
Now, why did they do that? Well, at home, I'm one of thoseÑIÕve clicked the ÒI agreeÓ button because I want the convenience of the internet, and most people have.

Carolyn Ford:
That's right.

Will Roper:
I think we realize deep down that our individual dataÑwe don't want it in the hands of people we wouldn't choose to have it. That it's not that valuable on its own, right?
My personal choicesÑwhat I'm streaming on NetflixÑis not valuable.
But if we aggregate it together with everyone else's, it does become valuable. And we get the benefit of that in terms of convenience. So we've all accepted that.
That's the personal internet. And there's nothing wrong with it. Like, it's made our lives amazingly efficient.
It's birthed AI as we know itÑall of the models that are now evolving how we live. It's amazing.
Now, contrast that with my public service life, which really resembles any industry that has any kind of regulation or IP. They're not clicking ÒI agree.Ó They can't.

Carolyn Ford:
That's right.

Will Roper:
Their data is valuable. So what do they do with it? They firewall it away because they need to protect it.
And if they need others to use it, they'll put an army of lawyers between the user and the owner of the data to ensure it's not misused.
That's my government experience. That's being on the internet, but like, not of it.
You're not participating.

Carolyn Ford:
Okay.

Will Roper:
So what a sovereign data territory isÑand we'll come up with a better name for it eventuallyÑis that that firewalled data isn't going to leave its firewall via a click ÒI agreeÓ by a corporate lawyer.
There needs to be a new kind of infrastructure that lets the owner protect it as if it's their own territoryÑ their house, their rulesÑbut that allows it to connect with others as they see fit.
And that's not the way that any infrastructure works today.
Cloud is great. We share computers. All of our data is together. It's in big server farms. We can access it everywhere.
But you don't get to choose how it connects in that cloud to a high degree, and you certainly don't get to choose how it connects outside of that cloud.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
And so the infrastructure that we created in Istari Digital is to do that.
It's not to give you a better compute environment to run in. It's to let everyone choose their existing environment, choose their existing firewalls, choose their existing authentication meansÑwhatever it is that makes that owner of data feel like it is properly protected.
Don't touch it. Because you're trying to run up a vertical wall. Don't touch it.
Live behind it and allow that owner to selectively choose how to connect it.
Now, that sounds easy. It's really hard to do. But that is the gateway I needed to opening up software processes for aerospace, for bureaucracy itself, and then, of course, opening up the gates for AI.
It's so clear looking back, but it was not looking forward. Like any good problem, as you grapple with it, you start to understand it better and better.

Carolyn Ford:
So the way my brain is thinking about this is, you know, the nation of CarolynÑmy digital nationÑis maybe even like Kubernetes. Like it'sÑI have my container. I can get what I want, but nobody can get in unless I let them in.
Are we talking about that?

Will Roper:
It's exactly right.
Containers were likeÑI think about that a lot, Carolyn, because that was likeÑsaved my life. Not literally, but in the Air Force and Space Force, I was the first adopter of cloud in defense.
This was back when JEDI was going on. I realized when containers came out that we could hybridize cloud, and we did.
But it was more than that. We could move code from the cloud to the jet, and it was just seamless.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
The B-2 bomber at the time was overrunning. We had no idea why the code would not run on the jet, and then containers came out and the problem just vanished.

Carolyn Ford:
Are the containers really secure?
Like, you can take this section off this piece of stuff that you want and put it in your jet from the cloud.
See, I'm not a developer. I'm not technical, soÑ

Will Roper:
Well, I meanÑand with the team I work with now, neither am I.
What containers didÑit's not the same as what we do in IstariÑbut it's really instructive. It's a great example to talk about, and insightful of you to bring it up.
Containers took what I didn't dare to think at the timeÑthat the problem was software itself.
I thought the problem was our jet or our cloud and the fact that they would not work together.
I didn't look at software and say, ÒThe problem is a core software function.Ó

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
It took Google to realize that noÑwe needed to change the way that software could be run so that it ran the same way regardless of the computer that it's on.
That sounds so obvious looking back, but it wasn't. Like, we were in the VMÑvirtual machineÑera.
That was not the way. Google saw that, they eventually open sourced it, and it changed the world. It changed the internet of things into an internet of code.

Carolyn Ford:
And we saw it happen on the U-2, right? I'm going back to your paper of five years ago, and if I'm remembering rightÑwe proved this time and time again. This can really be done.

Will Roper:
Exactly. It was a big moment for the Air Force.
We got that if we validated the technology, we did not have to validate every single piece of code we needed to move.
Containerization is an example of Google embracing the complexity of deploying code and creating a technology uniquely for it.
The problem is sharing data is different than sharing code.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
We don't want to move the data around like containers help solve for deploying software.
Instead, we want to change the paradigm for how easy it is to connect data.
I didn't actually think the problem was the way in which we share data. Like, it's data itself that is the problemÑnot the fact that my systems aren't compatible or that I work at a different level of classification.
Will Roper:
That's the paradigm shift that our customers are undergoing. It's a 180.
It just makes problems go away that they never considered weren't the real problem in front of them.
If you embrace the complexity in a new techÑand it's been a long time since a new infrastructure has come outÑI mean, I think containers are arguably the last one.
That was an infrastructure as code.
And I think Istari is bringing out the next new one. And although we're just getting started, I expect that we're going to find that same Òyou can do anything with itÓ response.
And it's fun seeing what customers are already doing.

Carolyn Ford:
I want to talk about your paper that you wrote about five years ago, There Is No Spoon.
I told youÑitÕs a new discovery of mine, so IÕm super excited about it. So all of our listeners that have read it, youÕre just going to have to be patient with me while I geek out on it, because itÕs a brilliant paper.
I told you before we startedÑIÕm not in the military, IÕm not in public service, I donÕt build planesÑand this paper resonated with me.
So listeners, if you havenÕt read it, go find it. ItÕs worth the read.
Going back to the There Is No Spoon paperÑare we going to two with Istari? Is that whatÕs happening?

Will Roper:
We are.
You know, I wrote There Is No SpoonÑmy lovely wife allowed me to write it over a vacation we took during COVID. I sat on the beach and typed it out.
It started a bit as a joke for me. I was having a bit of fun. I was on vacation. But there was a little bit of method in the madness.
I had just gotten exposed to Formula One racing. I wasnÕt very familiar with the sport, but McLaren Racing was kind enough to show me how they built race cars.
And it was like watching software developersÑbut they were developing real race cars. Over a thousand for every race.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
There was no aerospace program that could even attempt that. And the races are just a few weeks apart.
So theyÕre building a thousand different digital twins, and they have to do it.
ItÕs not like doing it for style points. If they donÕt design that number, they donÕt have a really good match to actual race day conditions.
They design for temperature, humidity, driver feel.
They even model the pit crews and their ergonomics so they can predictÑdown to the millisecondÑhow long things will take.

Carolyn Ford:
Well, and I know that they outfit those carsÑbecause I have a friend whoÕs really into Formula One racingÑthey outfit those cars with like thousands of sensors too.
So that dataÕs getting fed back to these digital modelsÑlike on the tires and everywhere. ThereÕs all these sensors.

Will Roper:
ThereÕsÑat least at that time, five years agoÑit was 300 gigabytes per race being streamed back.
The engineers are at the race, but theyÕre not watching it. TheyÕre watching their screens.
TheyÕre trying to simulate the race faster than itÕs happening to change strategies.
The race car in its physical form and its digital form are tethered together. TheyÕre one organism.

Carolyn Ford:
Oh my gosh.

Will Roper:
It was like watching a science fiction film.

Carolyn Ford:
Well, and I knowÑit's like theyÕre watching The Matrix. YouÕve got your engineers watching The Matrix and your drivers.

Will Roper:
It was.

Carolyn Ford:
I love it.

Will Roper:
You know, IÕm a big science fiction fan. Always have been.
I originally did not start with that. I told our Air Force executives, ÒThis is a big deal.Ó
Like, theyÕre building software like code.
And the response I got was, ÒHey, Will, weÕre building everything with computers. We are digitally engineering.Ó
But it wasnÕt like this.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
So I took the time to write it. Tried to make it entertaining, but also have some insights.
So that people would realizeÑat a minimumÑI believed what I said. I thought this was a big deal and worth the time to read.
And if you go through the paper, there were three different tenets that seemed to me were things we would need to copy Formula One.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
IÕll go ahead and do the last two, because itÕs the first oneÑlooking backÑthat did not have a technical solution.
One was we needed to be able to get from the development environment to the edge very quickly. Formula One could.
TheyÕre actually one organism at race day. I wouldÕve been happy with deploying quickly.
Well, containers were breaking down that barrierÑso warping from your tech stack to the edge: check.
The third principle was pivoting to digital-first operationsÑlike Òe-create before you aviatedÓÑjust to make it catchy and memorable.

Carolyn Ford:
So really living in the simulation is what youÕre talking about.
And are we really that good?

Will Roper:
Well, I meanÑFormula One is.
Formula One is realer than the race.
In a sense, the race car is almost like a printed document.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
I mean, do you think a paper document is the real document anymore? Or do you feel like, ÒI really want that e-document where I can manipulate it, send it everywhere, sign itÓ?
WeÕve flipped polarity on the way that we correspond.
Formula One flipped polarity on physical race cars.

Carolyn Ford:
Oh my gosh.
The car is the printed document. ItÕs not the real thing.

Will Roper:
Yep.

Carolyn Ford:
ItÕs just blowing my mind, okay.

Will Roper:
Because you canÕt change it anymore, right?
The power is in the change. ItÕs in the feedback.
You have to print it because thatÕs what a race is. You can only have one car.
But if you step back from it, the car is going to change 85% over the course of a season.
That first car is not there anymore.

Carolyn Ford:
So do they print a new car?
Like literally after they race?

Will Roper:
Everything changes about every 15 minutes. Something has been redesigned and recertified.
The car is never static. It is a truly living, evolving processÑjust like code on the internet today is never static.

Carolyn Ford:
But how do they build it that fast?
Like, are they using 3D printers? How are they physically building it?

Will Roper:
AhÑand that takes us to the first principle.
There Is No Spoon did not have a solution for that. Formula One did. Aerospace did not.
And that isÑthey own a shared development environment or tech stack.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
When you work with Formula OneÑand I do todayÑFormula One has one environment that has all of their models and simulations that represent their cars.
They have really good engineers, but theyÕre all using the same environment. ItÕs all connected together.
So they can go from a requirements change, all the way through design, simulation, regulation checks, safetyÑall as a software process.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
They have the ability to own a shared tech stack across their entire supplier baseÑwhich is mostly them.
We did not have that in aerospace.
Will Roper:
That is where we hit the wall in aerospace.
We have thousands of suppliers for a weapons system. We have lots of classification.
The only programs that we could copy Formula One were ones that were so classified that we brought all of the data together for national security reasons.
And those programs did see some of the same results.
F-47Ñnow itÕs being talked about in publicÑwas one of the ones that was really promising to me on my watch.
But they were the exceptions. They werenÕt the rule.
There wasnÕt an infrastructure that embraced what Formula One did centrally and decentrally.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
ThatÕs the thing that we had to solve in Istari.
How do we break it up? How do we get all of that benefit of connection without the detriment of consolidation?
And if you can solve that one thingÑso easy to say, so hard to do.

Carolyn Ford:
Yeah, I mean, how do you secure it like that?
That soundsÑIÕm just like, whoa, whoa, hold back. ThereÕs a security issue.

Will Roper:
Yeah. I mean, if you consolidate, youÕre going to inherit the baggage of all security concerns.
But if you can make the connection have no securityÑzero sensitivityÑseparate from the data itself, now youÕve got a solution.
YouÕve got one that I would have adopted, and hereÕs why.

Carolyn Ford:
Are you air gapping it?
Like, how are you doing that?

Will Roper:
ThereÕs always a clever trick for any problem.
So the data is sensitive. Take a military aircraft. It has lots of levels of classification.
ThereÕs no technology changing that. IP is sensitive. Data is sensitive. AI is even more sensitive nowÑthe most valuable IP in existence.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
YouÕre not changing that.
The connections between things rarely are.
IÕll give you an example. LetÕs say you and I are building a super-classified airplane.
IÕm building the fuselage. YouÕre building the wings. Our designs are top secret. We canÕt share them with anyone.
But you and I have to periodically check in to make sure that our two systems will integrate together.
Otherwise, youÕre going to build a wing that doesnÕt strap into my fuselage, and an airplane that does not make.

Carolyn Ford:
Right.
We still donÕt have to see each otherÕs stuff. We just need to know, right?

Will Roper:
Exactly.
So you and I will have a set of documents that define how our two systems are supposed to mate togetherÑseparations of bolts, strengths of materials, things like that.

Carolyn Ford:
So is this part of like yourÑI was going to say using bureaucracy as code, but thatÕs taking us down a different path. So keep going.

Will Roper:
It is what weÕre doing on the X-plane weÕre building with Skunk Works.
If you think of that documentÑitÕs not a document anymore.
Imagine going into the future, Matrix-style.
What if it was a set of software tests you could run?
Do the holes and bolts align?

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
You can check this for almost any circumstance you can think of thatÕs not sensitive.
Like the fact that your wing will fit my fuselage.
It doesnÕt tell you anything. There might be a rare exception, but IÕve seen very few.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
That allows us to create a connection layer that checks integration.
It has almost no sensitivity.
ItÕs separate from the very sensitive dataÑwhich is our design.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
You and I could check integration via a software process every second of every day without having to bring our data together.
If thereÕs a way to do that check that works both waysÑmeaning neither of us can have the high groundÑwe have to be on a level playing field.
A level digital playing field.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
That means if I can check it, you can check it.
And if we can both do that, that makes it a peer-to-peer protocolÑkind of like encryption on the internet when we do e-commerce.
ItÕs a math protocol.
In theory, anyone can check it. It doesnÕt favor the seller or the buyer.
ItÕs a level digital playing field. ItÕs fair.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
IstariÕs protocol is the same way.
ItÕs a math protocol that can be checked by both parties.
That puts them on the same level playing fieldÑwhich means you donÕt have to trust anyone.
You can verify everything.

Carolyn Ford:
Right.

Will Roper:
And the fact that you can verify everything means you can extend a zero-trust architectureÑwhere you donÕt trust anything, you verifyÑacross collaboration.
Now weÕre ready to do Formula One.

Carolyn Ford:
I love it.
It sounds likeÑduh, of course this is what we should doÑand I have no idea how itÕs even remotely possible.

Will Roper:
ThatÕs the trick.
Make the connection layer something that can be sharedÑbecause itÕs not sensitiveÑand validated by both parties on both ends, like RSA encryption today.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Now weÕre ready to do what the world of software doesÑbut break it up across different authorities and data sources.

Carolyn Ford:
I mean, I love it. It sounds like duh, of course this is what we should do. And I have no idea how itÕs even remotely possible.
Like, when I start thinking about, okay, logistically, how is this going to happen? Because Formula OneÑthey donÕt just have connection points. They share everything, right?
TheyÕre not trying to keep the parts separate and secret. They just share it all.
So now youÑthis problem that Istari is tackling is just monumental and definitely a paradigm shift.

Will Roper:
Formula One consolidation isnÕt a barrier.
They own most of their IP, and the IP they donÕt own, they have exclusive relationships.
ThereÕs no big deal putting it together.

Carolyn Ford:
Right. They donÕt care. ItÕs not national security.

Will Roper:
Exactly.
So for most industries, itÕs the lawyers who say, ÒYou canÕt do that.Ó
The same ones whoÕll say, ÒYou canÕt click ÔI agree.ÕÓ

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
So we designed for the lawyersÑso that theyÕll be the happiest of anyoneÑbecause this is more secure than things have ever been.
And we put this into play because youÕve got to teach people through doing.
I learned that in government service. You canÕt just have theory.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
So when I decided to start bringing this out, we started a program with the Air Force and Lockheed MartinÕs Skunk Works, whoÕs our subcontractor.
TheyÕve never subbed to a startup, so itÕs been fun all around seeing how this would go.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Skunk Works has built some of the most famous airplanes in historyÑthe SR-71, the U-2, the F-117.
ItÕs got a fabled history.
We wanted to do something thatÕs also a first of its kind with them: the first airplane thatÕs digitally certified.

Carolyn Ford:
Meaning none of that paper exchange where the two differentÑ

Will Roper:
YouÕre going to certify it before you actually build it.

Carolyn Ford:
YouÕre going to certify it before you actually build it.

Will Roper:
We are going to do thatÑbut IÕve got to stop using that word, because youÕre building it.

Carolyn Ford:
You are building it. ItÕs just not in the physical world.

Will Roper:
You design it.
Certification, I view, is likeÑitÕs a knob, not a switch.
ThatÕs what the program is doing.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
ThatÕs thing one.
Thing twoÑitÕs trying to make certification something that can run continuously, the way the software world does.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
ThatÕs what Toyota did with the andon cord.
They made quality something that happens all along the production line.
They made it a continuous processÑbefore the world of software even existed.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
We just want to do that with airworthiness.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
And the way it works is Lockheed Martin is the designer of the X-plane.
So theyÕre the source of truth. No one else is. TheyÕre the ones making it.

Carolyn Ford:
Right.

Will Roper:
Normally, theyÕd have to take all the different details in their models and sims and a hundred other tools and put them into a human-readable document for airworthiness and certification experts to read.
That goes back and forthÑsometimes for yearsÑbefore certification is granted.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
This X-plane is the first where there is no paper in between.
LockheedÕs sources of truth can run directly against the Air ForceÕs.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Both are on a level digital playing field.
They both get to see the pass/fail tests that are run between the two systems.
TheyÕre not sensitive. TheyÕre not owned by anyone.
TheyÕre criteria between two things.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Although weÕll show that it is possible to grant a certification based on digital mechanisms, whatÕs even bigger is what weÕll do next year.

Carolyn Ford:
Because youÕre building the physical aircraft.

Will Roper:
Because if you donÕt, people are always going to wonder if it was a stunt or something.
You can build anything on a slide.

Carolyn Ford:
Right. Slideware.

Will Roper:
Exactly.
So weÕre creating what we call a digital flight envelope.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
This doesnÕt exist. ItÕs a term weÕre making up.
A digital flight envelope is like a flight envelope an airplane hasÑthe conditions it can fly safely.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
When you reach the edge of the envelope, youÕre right at stall. If you go a little further, you fall.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
WeÕve created a digital flight envelope that the models and sims think is true.
ItÕs intentionally conservative.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
There is a real physical flight envelope that is not known.
It wonÕt be known until the airplane flies and measures itselfÑjust like Formula One.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
When the airplane flies, there will be test points where the digital and physical overlap.
The plane measures itself. The models predict.
The difference is calculated.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
If the difference is small enoughÑwithin bounds acceptable to the Air ForceÑyou pass, and you move to the next point.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
The airplane will literally certify itself as it flies.
And it wonÕt do it onceÑitÕll do it continuously.

Carolyn Ford:
ThatÕs wild.

Will Roper:
ItÕs like a software process in the air.
And I think thatÕs going to be revolutionaryÑmore so than certifying before you build.

Carolyn Ford:
Right.

Will Roper:
Imagine physical systems that continually evaluate and recertify themselves.
It could change everything about safety.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
This is the first time this has been attempted.
Failure is an option. It always is when you do something new.
But I think itÕs going to workÑand I think it will set a precedent far beyond the X-plane itself.

Carolyn Ford:
I would imagine when Formula One first started doing thisÑhow long ago was that?
Are we talking like 2015? Are we a decade now that theyÕve been doing this, or less?

Will Roper:
Yeah, I thinkÑFormula One is constantly evolving.
IÕd say eight years ago really marks the beginning of the digital era. Certainly five years ago it was in full force.
Now theyÕre not just cost-capped, which is what drove the digital boomÑtheyÕre compute-capped, because they continue to push innovation.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
ItÕs an amazing industry. You give them a boundary, and you create a new generation of innovation.

Carolyn Ford:
Is it the right term to call the real carÑthe codeÑthe digital twin? Is that the right term?

Will Roper:
I think itÕs the term that will stick.
I think itÕs also been a term thatÕs held back digital transformation because it makes you think of the MatrixÑlike this thing has to be picture-perfect visually.
A digital twin could be as simple as a lookup tableÑa mathematical curve.
If itÕs good enough to represent reality and youÕre willing to make a decision based on it, itÕs a digital twin.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
For me, digital twin means actionable.
IÕm willing to take real-world actions based on it.
I donÕt need to independently validate it every time. That could be useful, but itÕs not a surrogate for reality.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Formula One treats their digital twins as surrogates.
They make real-world decisions all the time.
And aerospace will get there very soon, I think.

Carolyn Ford:
When Formula One first started doing thisÑso weÕre talking within the decadeÑdo you know if what looked like the digital twin was perfect?
And then when they built the physical thing, did the wheels come off?

Will Roper:
It wasnÕt quite like that.
But in 2022, there were changes in the regulationsÑthere always are.
Those changes allowed different structures underneath the car.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
A Formula One car is like an upside-down airplane.
ItÕs a wing design sucking itself into the ground so it can go faster.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
When the regulations changed to allow new undercarriage wing designs, all the teams wanted to take advantage of it.
But they hadnÕt raced those cars before.
They couldnÕt just go out and test endlessly in the physical world because theyÕre cost-capped.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
So they had to wait until race conditionsÑand they all had a similar problem.
This porpoising issue, where the car would go up and down instead of staying planted.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Teams that werenÕt right up frontÑthatÕs kind of the DoD bureaucracy way of thinking: weÕll think about it long enough to get it right the first time.

Carolyn Ford:
And then we wonÕt need it anymore because itÕll take that long.

Will Roper:
Exactly.
ItÕs crazy in the tech world to think your initial plan will be completely right.
The teams knew they wouldnÕt be, so they fought for cycle timeÑcollecting real race data, updating their models and sims, and then updating their cars.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Teams like Red Bull were able to do that quickly and won the season.
Teams like MercedesÑwith their W13Ñhad high hopes.
It took them about half the season to find the issue.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Their tech director said it boiled down to a single error.
Once they found it, the car snapped in and they won a Grand Prix.

Carolyn Ford:
So not a total lossÑbut disappointing.

Will Roper:
Exactly.
ThatÕs how digital twins should be thought of.
TheyÕre not rightÑtheyÕre evolving.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
They get closer and closer to reality, and reality itself is evolving.
These are processes, not fixed states.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
TheyÕre safer because theyÕre chasing reality.
And in that pursuit, theyÕre far faster than how we do business today.

Carolyn Ford:
I wish I had you for about three more hours, Dr. Roper.
WeÕve kind of gone off the rails from the discussion guide, but IÕm going to take us to one of my favorite parts of the showÑthe Tech Talk questions.

Will Roper:
Sounds good.

Carolyn Ford:
These are rapid-fire questions. Just answer from your gut.
First Tech Talk question: you get to program your digital dojo.
What is the one skill you choose?

Will Roper:
IÕd want to be able to fly.

Carolyn Ford:
Oh yeahÑno airplanes. Just fly. Okay, Neo.

Will Roper:
Just like Neo in The Matrix.
Aerospace is a romantic industryÑflight, space, seeing the Earth.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
I flew in the U-2 before I left government service.
Seeing the Earth curve belowÑit was one of the most impressionable moments of my life.

Carolyn Ford:
I love that.
Although Neo couldnÕt download that oneÑhe had to learn it.

Will Roper:
He did.
IÕm taking a little license there.

Carolyn Ford:
Fair enough.

Will Roper:
You start The Matrix thinking itÕs a prisonÑand it is.
But then you realize itÕs actually a level playing field.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Just like what Istari creates.
Agent Smith knows how the Matrix works.
Gravity isnÕt a lawÑitÕs a setting.

Carolyn Ford:
Code.

Will Roper:
Exactly.
Once Neo realizes heÕs on equal footing, he eclipses Smith.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
Sci-fi is often prescientÑor maybe we build the future we imagine.

Carolyn Ford:
The Matrix is one of the greatest of all time.

Will Roper:
Agreed.

Carolyn Ford:
The Matrix is a prisonÑuntil you realize there is no spoon.

Will Roper:
And then it becomes SmithÕs prison.

Carolyn Ford:
ThatÕs right.

Will Roper:
Everyone has free willÑtheir own sovereign data territory.

Carolyn Ford:
Mm-hmm.

Will Roper:
The Matrix controls what isnÕt sensitiveÑthe shared world.

Carolyn Ford:
ThatÕs fascinating.

Will Roper:
ThatÕs what we need in infrastructureÑfreedom with collaboration.

Carolyn Ford:
AlrightÑif you could rewrite one law of digital physics, what would it be?

Will Roper:
IÕd want data to never be separable from its origin.

Carolyn Ford:
Okay.

Will Roper:
So we could know whatÕs true.

Carolyn Ford:
WhatÕs Agent Smith in our world today?

Will Roper:
Not just deepfakes.
ItÕs a world where you can never get to the bottom of anything.

Carolyn Ford:
WhatÕs the Matrix moment weÕre living through nowÑbut maybe havenÕt realized?

Will Roper:
The lack of technology that facilitates mutual trust.

Carolyn Ford:
ThatÕs powerful.

Will Roper:
It is.

Carolyn Ford:
Thank you so much for joining me today.

Will Roper:
This has been a blast.

Carolyn Ford:
For leaders rethinking infrastructureÑwhere should they start?

Will Roper:
istaridigital.com is a good place to start.
We believe in a level digital playing field.

Carolyn Ford:
Where else can people find you?

Will Roper:
LinkedInÑWilliam Roper.
I donÕt talk unless thereÕs something to say.

Carolyn Ford:
Fair.

Will Roper:
But weÕll have more to say soon.

Carolyn Ford:
IÕd love to have you back.

Will Roper:
IÕd love that.

Carolyn Ford:
Thank you to our listeners.
Please smash that like button and share the episode.
Tech Transforms is produced by Show & Tell.
Until next timeÑstay curious and keep imagining the future.