(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.)

Hey, you're listening to Cut For Time, a podcast from Faith Church, located on the north side of Indianapolis. My name is Claire Kingsley. I'm Anna Mitchell.

And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message. Cut For Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation, and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday.

Thanks for listening. All right, Tom, welcome back to Cut For Time. This is my second to last Cut For Time for a while.

Yeah, okay. Well, that'd be sad, but I'm glad I get you on this one. I'm glad I get to be with you, too. 

Yeah, I actually will have the opportunity to interview our candidate next weekend or next week as my last Cut For Time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

I'm looking forward to that. So if you're listening now, Tom, no one sent in any questions for Tom, so he has to just go off of my questions. But if you're listening to our candidate next weekend and you have questions, you should totally text them in because we will love discussing those.

But, Tom, you preached this past weekend, and I'd love for you to just give us a summary of your sermon and then how does it fit in the context of the series that we're in right now? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's Another Hard Saying of a Kind Savior. I've really appreciated that title, and it just acknowledges that Jesus said things that are hard to understand.

Sometimes it seems like, doesn't that contradict another passage? Sometimes hyperbolic language to make a point, maybe unpacking some cultural issues, historical issues, or just some sayings that seem harsh to our cultural sensibilities, and there's probably some other categories. But my hard saying was, if you forgive others, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. If you don't forgive others, their sins, neither will your Father forgive your sins. 

That is a pretty hard saying, I would think. And so I was thinking about it in context of the other hard sayings and how they differ a bit. And so if it's okay, I'll just kind of run through the four or five or six, before B. If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.

Deny self? I mean, that is so un-American. We are to affirm ourselves. We're to create our own identity and all this crazy stuff. 

And so it's a hard saying to our culture, but it's such a wise and important saying to our culture. And then if anyone comes to me and doesn't hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Well, I think that's clearly a case of hyperbole to clarify the first order of allegiance to God above all, even your own family.

One of my favorites is the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And I think that's really intriguing because the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments. I think, I haven't done a detailed study, but I think it's the commandment of the Ten most addressed in the Gospels of all the Ten. 

And yet it's the only one that is not reaffirmed in a sense. There's no command to obey the Sabbath. It's all examples of Jesus disobeying it seemingly from their perspective.

And so I love, and I know you've done a lot of work with Sabbath and Nathan questioned you on it, which is very helpful, but just the whole thing that Sabbath is not to have strict rules, but it's for our good and a picture of the future Sabbath rest of the people of God. Just a couple more. With difficulty, a rich person will enter the kingdom of heaven, easier for the camel to go through the eye of a needle. 

There's been a lot of creative interpretations of that. But again, I think it's a bit of hyperbole to emphasize the dangers of wealth and not making wealth our God. And then just before me, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's to God, the things that are God. 

This one is, I think, really straightforward. It is not a real mystery to it. Everything belongs to God, but there are spheres of authority under God, including government, including government on many levels. 

And then also other entities like the church that has part of that as well. So I had, if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven. And that's a hard one. 

I got home from church Sunday, and Linda had been at first service and went on home, and she said, I didn't get what your points were. And one of the things I cut for time was I was going to say, this sermon isn't going to have your traditional three points in a poem and go home. It's going to be kind of a work in progress as we kind of work toward a conclusion.

And so that's how I defended my lack of points. But after all the background I gave, which did take half the sermon, I did have two points. And the first one was forgive the debt, the sin that's against us. 

That's the idea of revenge or getting even. That's the practical application of releasing the debt. And that's why debt is the right word, because it is a sense of obligation that because somebody's done, in order just to release that debt, that's what forgiveness essentially is.

And then the second point is take the high road of love, and all the different texts that go with that. So that's a short summary. It's just a hard saying in that Jesus puts the burden on us who've been offended rather than on the offender. 

Well, the offender clearly needs to repent to God to be forgiven and to confess to the one they've offended. But I guess my conclusion with this hard saying is that how can we be forgiven—if God forgives a mountain of debt against us that has eternal consequences, then how can I hold a debt against someone else that might be a really big debt in my mind, maybe very serious even, but minor in relation to the gravity of my sin against God? And a great quote that I did not use, but I like to use it now. This is from John Stott.

Once our eyes have been opened to see the enormity of our offense against God, the injuries which others have done to us appear by comparison extremely trifling. On the other hand, we have an exaggerated view of the offenses of others. It probably proves we've minimized our own.

That's the late John Stott who's had a great way with words. So that's kind of my intro. So what questions do you have? Well, I'd just like to ask, you know, we've been saying each sermon with like the bumper video and just like the overview of the series, we've said each sermon or each passage that was chosen invites us deeper into relationship with Jesus. 

So how does this passage do that? What would you say? Well, I guess I would say there that, wow, if we really understand that how sinful we are and what we deserve for our sins against God, and then to realize that Jesus came to take that punishment, that debt for us, how can I not be overwhelmed with, yeah, the enormity of my sin, but even more the enormity of that kind of love that would take an eternal punishment on himself, the one I deserve. If that doesn't make me closer to Jesus, I don't know what would. So yeah, to me, that's the heart of it. 

Yes. At first, the verses sound like our forgiveness from God depends on our forgiving of others, which you did clarify. Nope, that's not what this means. 

So what is he actually saying then? Yeah, well, and what I did emphasize a lot of my kind of the first half was that a core issue of the gospel is that we're sinners who need forgiveness, that Jesus came to take that sin. And then Jesus commands us to give one another, forgive one another based on that. So at first, it seems like a contradiction to the basis of salvation. 

I mean, we believe in, we're saved by grace through faith, grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone using Reformation language. Or the words of Jesus, pretty simply, whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life. So if Jesus is adding, is Jesus adding that we have to successfully forgive others, and if we don't get that right, are we eternally lost? Well, I don't want to soften Jesus' words, but the rest of Scripture seems clear that that's not the meaning. 

If we have any clear view, though, of our sin that God forgives, then there's no justification for not giving others. So I think maybe it seems to turn it around a little bit that based on what Christ has done for us, we must forgive others. How can we do it any other way? The parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18, the one guy had a debt of 10,000 talents, and that amounts to 200,000 years of wages. 

So it's obviously like the sand of the sea and that kind of language, which is not specific. It just means no limit. And then he went to a guy who owed him what amounted to 100 days wages, which is a lot.

But compared to the larger amount, it's nothing. And so based on that, how can we not forgive? And if we don't forgive, if we're so hard-hearted that we won't forgive, then that does make me say I need to evaluate where I am. Did I really receive God's forgiveness, or is it just a kind of a Heinrich Heine's comment? Well, God will forgive. 

That's his job. You know, lax attitude that doesn't take sin and forgiveness seriously. That's a big mistake.

What are some common misconceptions that Christians have about biblical forgiveness? Well, I think that the first one is that you can fall back into works righteousness, that if I forgive you, I forgave you, so I'm good. And then also, just the whole emotional piece, what does forgiveness mean? And how often—I did use a couple of examples, or descriptions at least, of I forgive you, I say we're all good, smile, shake hands, hug, whatever, and then next week I'm mad again because I've recycled back into that, but she did this to me, you know, and I get really angry. And so then you forgive again, so it's an emotional roller coaster, or merry-go-round, I guess, I don't know.

So I think that's a common problem, and that's because I don't think we've defined forgiveness well. So forgiveness is releasing it. It's not saying the emotions are all solved or the memory goes away. 

And if the other person never repents, doesn't even acknowledge the offense, I may be getting into your next question, but I can't force that, but I still can release the debt into God's hands and say, well, Romans 12 and 19, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God, and He will settle all accounts in the end. So we don't need to. It's not our job to do that. 

It's our job to release, and God will make sure justice is fulfilled, either through the cross or without that real judgment on the individual. Yeah. What do you think is the difference between reconciliation and forgiveness? That's a big one. 

I felt the need, and I did briefly at the end of the sermon, the extreme examples of cruelty, and I've dealt with quite a few over the 50 years that I've been a pastor, extreme cruelty, betrayal, abuse, physical abuse, sexual offenses. I don't think God expects victims of those kinds of extreme situations to enter back into a relationship with the abuser. It doesn't mean the abuser can't be forgiven. 

That's still an issue for them and God, but in some cases, there can be reconciliation, maybe after some pretty hard things, and I know there can be. I've seen it, but there are other situations in which I just don't think that's—it can be spiritual abuse that's added on to what's already happened if we force that person and just say, well, you've got to forgive and move on. I think for their sake, they do need to release it to God and trust God that over time healing comes, hopefully, but I think there are some things you don't ever forget, traumatic, traumatic offenses against you, but in God's grace, I think healing can come. 

That's why I recommended a book that actually two people have already asked me about it, Dr. Amy Orr Ewing, Forgiveness, and she really goes into some of those really hard cases, and I think she does a lot better job than I did of explaining why forgiveness can be extended without reconciliation being required or possible. Yes, you did in the sermon talk about the tension between forgiveness and justice, and I feel like that's kind of—we're a little bit there right now too. Of course, we're going to feel, if we were the offended one, that in some cases, we would really have a sense of justice or that we'd want justice, and you're saying, it might not come from the side of heaven, and that is hard because it feels like that's the next step that would happen after forgiveness, and you're saying the forgiveness might just be the last step. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and just like in criminal court, you hope for justice to be done in our American civil criminal court situations, but it doesn't always happen, and sometimes they get it wrong, and we can get it wrong, but in the end, God won't. He'll get it right. 

Yeah, yep. How could someone practically begin the process of forgiveness when the wound still hurts? What would you say? Well, I think, while there's so many categories, I think that it is always good to bring somebody alongside who is not the victim or the perpetrator to help you walk through this, to guide you through it, but again, to keep that difference between what it means to set aside the debt and say, I can't. I don't have the means or the power to fully resolve this, but I will leave it in the hands of God, so I think that's—I don't know if that's the first step because there's some level of impact from, again, depending on how severe the trauma is, some level of, you kind of have to process things for a while. 

You need to maybe talk it through with a friend or even a counselor, depending on the severity of the situation. I think, in some ways, the more minor offenses that we get so fired up about, that people have a hard time letting go of a little slight, you know, they didn't speak to me. They didn't even realize they didn't speak to you. 

They didn't notice. Whatever. Oh, that's worse.

In those cases, we need to grow up, and we just need to give grace across the board to other people. How do we want the—do the others as you would have them doing to you, the golden rule. You want to be held to that high of a standard that I've not given any grace? No, I don't think so.

But for the more, you know, it's such a whole range of offenses. For the more serious they become, then maybe the harder it is. And yet, I know so many people that they feel so guilty for not forgiving, and it just, you know, becomes this circle of agony and pain. 

And so, again, I'd help redefine forgiveness. It's going to release it. You're not going to fight back.

You're not going to get even. You're going to release that grudge. And then the healing that God the Holy Spirit can give through this church, through friends, over time, that is another matter.

And I think you can truly forgive without having that full healing take place. Again, some traumas, I don't think you get over them in this life, not fully. They're always part of your experience.

Yes, yeah. A counselor once told me, don't wait to stop hurting for forgiveness. Like, you can forgive and still hurt. 

And also, forgiveness doesn't take away the hurt. So, you are allowed to still hurt after you've extended forgiveness. That was really helpful for me.

My follow-up question is, do you think that forgiveness needs to be spoken? Like, what if it's just between you and the Lord? Maybe this person doesn't know how you're feeling, or how they've maybe hurt you. Is it okay for it to just be from your heart, in your heart, but never, like, spoken, you know? Or is it need to, when you're picturing forgiveness, is it between people? Well, that's a great question. I'm not sure I have a simple answer.

I think a lot of situations that we get mad and think a person is offended, they don't know, they did it. And in those cases, yeah, I think you need to be able to admit that, not hold the fault. If it's something they did insensitively, then maybe you can come alongside and let the, hey, this was painful, and let me explain why, and avoid a rift that continues.

Or, yeah, some things you just blow off. The other more serious side of it, though, is if a person has done something extremely violent to you, I don't think that means the victim has to face the perpetrator. And some want to, and I can respect that, but I don't think you have to be that. 

I had a person come to me once who had received a very offensive letter from somebody, and it was from a man to a woman. And she came to me with, what do I do with this? She's so embarrassed, the things he said, and all this. And I told her, let me handle it. 

And I actually invited one of the elders to join me in meeting with the individual, and we felt like we could leave her out of it and not put her through that trauma. Found out later the guy was really, really angry with me because I didn't follow Matthew 18 properly. But I felt like Matthew 18's procedure was she would go first, but there was a reason for her not to. 

And so we just went to step two with two people going, and I sort of felt like, you know, ultimately he didn't really get the point. He just was wanting to defend himself and argue about the process rather than deal with the reality of his own misdeed. So my last question for you, Tom, is if everybody practiced this, if we all are doing what Jesus is asking us, how would that make our communities and our churches and our world look different? Oh, wow. 

Well, just within the local church, it would be phenomenal. I mean, gossip is so closely related to this theme in terms of somebody did something, offended me, so instead of dealing with them, I talk to you and grumble and let it fester that way. I think that happens all the time and on fairly minor issues, but it can get more severe. 

I think it would be revolutionary if the church really lived out forgiving, reconciled relationships. Our witness to the world would be so much greater than it currently is, and of course today we have so many horrible exposures of sin within the church that the world knows is wrong too. It's not just our hang-ups, but the world knows these things are wrong, and yet Christians are found to have committed them, and it destroys our witness to the world. 

So I think the witness to the world would be phenomenal if we really could get a better handle on what it means to live in forgiving, healthy relationships. That's a great way to end. Thank you, Tom, and a beautiful picture of how this could really transform our communities and our world, and we can do this starting today. 

We can actually take steps to doing this and demonstrating Christ's love for us towards the people around us. Preaching a sermon like this is very self-convicting because there are areas where I as a preacher slip up, and I'm not preaching at you. I'm preaching with you in these situations.

Yeah. Thank you, Tom. Thanks for your time putting together this message and then time in Cut for Time.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. 

Okay. So long. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.

If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon, you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindy.com, or text them in to our Faith Church texting number, and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode. If this conversation blessed you in any way, we encourage you to share it with others. We'll be back again next week.

(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.)