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Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. Hi Curtis, welcome to Cut for Time and thank you so much for taking the additional time, you know, in addition to preparing a sermon for Faith on Sunday, doing this podcast with us, we really appreciate it. So would you just introduce yourself again and give us a summary from your sermon on Sunday? Sure. I'm Curtis Costin, senior pastor here at Solid Word Bible Church here in Indianapolis. And if I could... give a summary, I will start off as I did this summary, the home is where so much begins for believers.  know, almost as if we were to talk about base camp when you are getting ready to go on a journey. And most times base camps are thought of when you are going to scale the Himalayans or,  or, or some  feet or journey that's going to require quite a bit. And that's where you prepare. That's where you gather your resources. That's where you go over ah what you need to do and how you're going to do it. And I believe the home is that. so Ephesians 6, 1 through 4 gives  believing parents, right,  and children what God's expectation is, you know, and what they need to be careful about, you know. What does a godly home look like? And many times we like to think that a godly home is a perfect  But it's not. um But that godly home is the place where parents who are wanting to live for God and live out their relationship can help to disciple their children in the context of a greater Christian community.  Knowing that they don't have to do it alone, that knowing that they have each other and that they're working in Christ, but they have the community of believers who have the same charge. to do that as well.  But it also speaks to children at a time when children weren't spoken directly to like that. God lets children know what his expectations are for them. And he lets parents know too, which kind of sets a good boundary. And so three areas that I focused on was the call that God has to children, to parental obedience, that was one. The second one was a call to children to parental honor.  And the obedience  is  under your parents' authority, right? God says your main role  is to obey them  as it pertains to you living in the Lord. In other words, you are not to  do something God disapproves of in your doing what your parents want you approve of. But then also there's the honor and the honor part is interesting because that's whether or not you are living under your authority in the home. And if you're in the home, that speaks of how you obey them. It's not with this kind of  attitude, like these people bug me and I'll listen, but inside I'm really not. That honor speaks of value and respect.  And it doesn't say if your parents are getting it right. They're saying because of the position they hold, God says your response is to be value, honor, and respect, right? Because you may be a witness to those parents. What if they're not believers? You may be a witness. And then the last part which he spends is the call to parents to disciple their children. First, he starts off with what they are not to do. In other words, know your children. so that you are not exacerbating bad situations or you are not exhausting them, you're not provoking them to anger, instead of doing that, in essence, you're provoking or you're training them to be godly. And training isn't just by you telling them things, it really is more by you showing them things and then telling them  where you get it from. Why do we do this, right?  So that kind of framed everything for us for the Ephesians text.  And  so both groups know what God expects. Now, there is caveat to this. I know we have a lot of single parents. God understands sometimes that single parent plays both mother and father, right? That's when the Christian community is even more important, I think, because they supplement in ways that may not be there in the home. And God, His grace covers you in single parenting. So God's not saying, if you're not married, oops, sorry, this doesn't apply. No, it does. Because he still gives those parental responsibilities. All right. Thank you so much. um So I've got some questions for you today. First on the topic  of um the  call to obedience for children.  When would this command expire or when their kids no longer called to obey?  Is it when they're financially responsible? Is it when they've moved out of the house, when they're married? What is that?  Well, and that is going honestly, I really believe that is going to depend on the culture  because some cultures you were not considered on your own or you step out from your parents authority until you're well into ages. past what we do here in America.  We lived overseas for almost nine years in Europe and it was interesting how their parental influence was a little shorter where we lived. At least that's what it seemed. We lived in Switzerland, right? And so  there are times  that  our children would want to refer to the parental role and authority of their European friends and there was a statement that we all now laugh at. But we would say, understand that, we're American. And we would say, these rules still apply to us, right? And so what we were telling them is, as American parents with American value and culture, generally speaking, these are the rules that we're going to abide by, and we don't believe that they're  nullifying the word of God. And so I would say, if you are still under their authority, especially within your culture, right? um and you're still dependent upon them for your basic living, there should be some level  of obedience to what they  are calling for you. Now, I'm gonna go as parents, part of that chapter, mean, verse four  is I also have to know where they are in that process. It's not just children. And so when he says, don't provoke your children to anger, Part of that anger is you not realizing where they  are in this  developmental cycle. I had to say to one of my kids once, hey, look, I understand and I appreciate you wanting to flex your adult muscles. Cause they were getting in there. I said, what I have issue with is how you're doing it. Cause it's coming across as disrespectful. And they understood that, right? I understand you  wanted to, know,  press it. I don't agree. And I think, good, right? Because you do need to learn how to stand on your own. But I had to tell them, watch how you're doing it, because you're still under the authority here. And how you're doing it is coming across as disrespectful.  And they understood it and apologized, right? And so  I think you really work within that, knowing where they are, because sometimes they're at the upper end of that command expiring. I'm not requiring obedience as if you're six years old. I'm It's different. Yeah. Right. It is. And so based on where you are, it's going to be based on how I decide with obedience. But there is a time too, where you let them go. And one of the hardest things it was for us to do is to go from being as my wife and I would call it directors, meaning that we directed the affairs for the most part of their lives to coaches and advisors. when they became adults. And the more they got into adulthood is the less we would, is the more that I would go, well, here's what I would do if I were you. And I would say, here's why. Or sometimes if they don't ask, I don't advise unless I thought they were really going to harm themselves. And it was hard at first.  All my life, mean, all of their life, I had been used to going, no, no, no, no, you're not gonna do that. Here's what you're gonna do. That person becomes an adult and you try to do that. boy, that's when they start resenting. That's when resentment starts hitting in. You're trying to rule my life and yeah, but I want you to, I don't want you to experience heartache and you may not, but they may have to.  Yep. Okay, let's move to honor.  How would you counsel someone who  wants to  be able to honor their father and mother, but they struggle because of some hurt that they have growing up in their home?   Um, and it wasn't  a home filled with grace or maybe love like you're describing. So as a believer, the, we experienced perfect love and grace in Christ only. That's it. Everyone else is flawed.  Some display that those flaws more than others. And so I would say where there has been great hurt and harm. is how you allow the grace of God. And that doesn't mean that you are buddy-buddy with them. It doesn't at all. Honoring them may be,  look, I'm not going to tell them off. I'm not going to respond disrespectfully, right? I may not follow their advice because their advice may not be leading me down a godly path, but I'm not gonna treat them in the way that their sin deserves. Why? because God didn't treat me like that.  And I think if we remember that and we help them understand the grace that God is, that he has shown  us,  he expects us to show others. Most time when we hear that we think others outside of our home, I think the first place that  it hits home hardest is in your home, because that's the hardest place to show grace. uh people that have been closest to you and may have hurt you more deeply.  And so the issue becomes God, and to me, that's an issue of prayer. God, how do I, or  Father, I now pray, help me to demonstrate and to show grace in a way that honors you and I mature.  Okay, um I want to camp out with discipleship a little bit, the call for parents to disciple  their children. um And I guess it kind of extending back to honor and obedience, but then  forward into deception. How does this teaching as a whole extended grandparents?  So I know in our society, it has been said grandparents get the spoiler kids and I go. Let's be careful with that, right? um The primary responsibility in the home for discipleship of the children is the parents, but it's not the only. Just like in the Christian community, God calls the church to be involved in the believer's life, all of us, but we're not involved in the same way. So I would say with grandparents, one of the things that I think godly grandparents can do  is yeah, they get to be a bit more  distant  and  maybe not lean in as much as their parents. But one of the things that we talked about is  never dishonoring the parents or what they have chosen, unless it's something that's harmful  on what they have chosen for their children. So for instance, I just know for us as we were coming along, some of the decisions that we had decided to make as a couple, my wife and I, were different from both of our parents. And they responded like, well, what was wrong with what we did with you? And we said, we really wanted to see something different based on how we've grown in the Lord. And it still didn't, there were some things, well, oh my gosh. And we were like, I understand. I said, but one of the things that God gives us is the right that we can do things differently. So for grandparents, would be, you understand, to me, they're almost in a better position. You can see the mistakes you made and you can begin to correct them with your grandchildren and help your kids to see. And you might get the response, why didn't you guys do this with us? And my response was me, because we hadn't learned it yet.  Because we haven't done it yet. And I think grandparents and parents alike should ask this question if they are in the Lord. How do I help my children or grandchildren  see and understand who Christ is in my relationship with them  as we draw closer together? And so it's not just I want to spoil them. It's not just for my  convenience, I got someone that'll do work for me, that'll help me out.  I'm always asking, does this help them? How does this help them to see Christ more clearly? How does this help them to walk in the Lord? And how is this going to help them down the line? Because let's be honest, most kids aren't thinking about their future. They're thinking about the  very real present,  and that's it. But as parents, you're thinking about present,  near future, and even distant future. you see habits and patterns that they do not. And you're trying to help those things to be either developed in their life or taken out of their life early on. And so I'll give an example for me, this was parent, not grandparent for me, I was one that um come  as I was older. So this was like, like just out of high school, like, know,  no, this was senior year. High school. And I would come home and I had worked some, would throw the clothes in the chair and I would, and they would just start to pile up and maybe when I got tired of it, I went and hung everything up. But my mom used to come in, oh my gosh, drove me crazy.  And she used to have this one line, she would say, Curtis, it would take you 30 seconds to one minute to hang it up when you take it off. And she would just say that, she would come in and. And that's all she would say. And I would go, oh my gosh, if this woman says it again, I'm gonna scream, right?  But then to get her to stop saying it, I let me just try it. Let me just try it. And today, my wife will tell you, yeah, here's a guy who as soon as he takes it off, he's hanging it up. As soon as we get back from a trip, he's cleaning out this suitcase. And I go, that habit started in high school. Because my mom, in her wisdom, just started planting those seeds. Yeah, it frustrated me, but. but she never said it in a demeaning manner. It was always a matter of fact. And so that's what I said. We do things with their development in mind, not destroying the relationship in the process. Yeah. All right. So you said that the home is where we develop disciples, not develop perfect children. And then earlier in the podcast, you said a godly home is not a perfect home. So can you speak to, like develop that a little bit more and then how do we respond when  our kids respond poorly or,  you know, screw up or mess up because we've just said they're not perfect. How do we turn that into a discipleship moment? First of all, what we,  I believe we need to take away is who they are reflects on me. Yeah, for sure. Because I think that's where we start making some knee-jerk decisions.  Or we start living out of our insecurities, right? How we want people to see us, or I don't want them to think this about us. And we had to get to the point where not really caring what people decide to think. One of the things that we did, and I'll share how this helped us, um When it came to movies, as our kids were, overseas, now we were in this um community,  a lot of believers, when we're in Europe, many missionary believers who had, now everyone has their differing views, but when it came to movies, we went by the rating system and their ages. And I remember some of them that, you know, that they thought, what's wrong with this, what's wrong with that? And their friends, my friends are going to the movies and we're like, okay, it's PG-13 and you're 11, you're not going, sorry. Why? I said, they felt these things were not at the point where an 11 year old is developed enough. Now, yeah, where their exceptions could be, but they were far and few between for us, right? We got flak from the community around us, as well as our kids. And we were like, that's okay. but it was able to be celebrated that when they grew and expressed maturity and if it was something that we were gonna let them go to, we're like, now you can, hey, you get to. And so um we had to decide, guess what? Whether people like it or not, what are we feeling is gonna be best  for exposure, what they're going to get in development. So you have to take yourself out the equation. Because there are some times that your kids are going to, make you look bad, period. And folk will go, what are they learning in that home?  Hey, right?  And it's not about you. It's about them learning who Christ is, why they need him in their life, meaning to make a salvation choice for themselves, and then to watch us and learn at least to some level, not perfect.  As I said in the service,  not Not that we're flawless, but we're faithful. I wanted them to see faithful living because that's what I saw. I didn't see flawless living. I saw faithful living. And that we do that. So this whole deal of what happens when your kids mess up, don't act like it's the end of the world. You've embarrassed me and you've been and what your kids are learning is I don't really need to do things because they're right or wrong or because God is honored or not. I need to not do them so that my parents are not embarrassed. That's not what we're trying them to learn. Because sometimes as a Christian, you will  do things that the world says, you should be embarrassed for that.  I'm going, no, I'm not.  God is honored even though you don't like this. And that's okay, you just don't like it. But I'm not living for you.  And so for me, is, um  We're not  wanting to race perfect. I asked my mom  once as I got older, was getting into my career, what did you want me to do?  What did you think I would be good at? And she would never answer. She was like, I'm not, boy, I'm not answering that. I'm not answering that. And so I bugged her enough, I did.  And she thought I would make a great pharmacist. And I was like, ooh, yuck. That's what I thought. Now, nothing wrong with being a pharmacist. For me in my mind at that time, I thought, oh, that's kind of boring, right?  But for me, it wasn't in my interest circle. So of course it was. But then  she said something, she said, but really that didn't matter. She said, really what I wanted for all my kids was that they have a relationship with Christ. That's what she said. And I remember saying at that time, I think early 20s, I said, that's it. And I go to my shame, I said that. And now I go, I get  That's  it.  Yes. Yeah. Because if you have a relationship with God, it doesn't matter what you do. God has your heart and you're going to do it for his honor. Yeah. I heard a story once  of a mom sharing about  how she  let her son  down or whatever. And she  was explaining like,  I had to apologize. I made a poor parenting decision and I needed to ask for forgiveness.   And she said, um like, hey, just so you know, mommy needs Jesus. And so like, can you forgive me?  you know, she said, how can we expect them to see their own need for a savior if we can't show them that we also need our savior? And then he goes out of school because they were like in the school area or school playground or whatever where she was apologizing to him and he's yelling to everyone, hey, everyone, my mom needs Jesus. And she's like, I should be embarrassed, but it's true. So there you go. And so I would say, hey, look. Yes, your kids,  in some ways reflect  the home that they're living  in. And as long as those examples,  and yet they still have free will decision making power on their own. And so if  what we are doing  is,  We're trying to govern and manage behavior modification. That's what I call it. In other words, I just want modified behavior. It's going to be a mess. Instead, what I've learned is I don't want behaviorally modified children. What I want are transformed children.  Transform what? By the gospel and by living  out their faith in Christ. And you know what? Sometimes they'll make decisions differently.  I'm realizing more and more the older I get, I'm starting to distinguish more between what is, um what's my preference and style, and what's really those things that are needful, that are godly, that are basic. And I go, yeah, I would have done it that way, but you're doing it that way. It's just a different way of doing it, but you have not gone against the principles of Christ.  And  I'm okay with that. Yeah, it's a hard thing to release that control though, right? It takes time to learn that. It takes being secure in Christ. Yeah. That's what it does. And so that's why as much as we can allow the love, the unconditional love of God and His grace to settle our insecurities is to the extent that we can make better decisions for our children. Thank you. All right, the last question that I have for you is what is the cost if we leave discipleship up to others? Please know that God can and will disciple his children. It's just you don't get the privilege of being a part of the process and you may miss out on a deeper relationship and a level of respect from your children that you could have had. Now, it doesn't mean that in your later years as you realize the mistake, and even as you may tell them, hey, listen, I really was not a part of the discipleship process in your life, and I've farmed that out to other people, and you may be able to redeem and be able to have some part later on, but it won't be the part that you could have had had you done it earlier. And that's not for you to sit there and now you  bemoan it or you, oh my gosh, what have I done? It's to realize, no. I didn't do that right, but I am gonna get it right from now on. I am gonna be in a place where I'm not gonna dictate, you should be doing this. No, hey, look, you and I both know I didn't really press upon you to be like that. But one of the things that I've learned over time is, and sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't because we haven't developed the relationship to warrant that.  but you still, you give it to the Lord, right? And you realize, I would even say parents are always asking,  is this going to help my child understand who Christ is, their need for him and how they could live for him more, right? Will it? And that governs all kinds of involvement because really, Many families, what we're saying instead for kids are, here's what's really important. You know what? Running yourself ragged over sports, that's really important because sports is higher than everything. No, we'll say Jesus is higher than everything, but them kids know,  no, actually sports is because that's what gets the attention in this house. um Educational attainment is, and there's nothing wrong with that. Please do not. take anything negative to that. But if it is placed higher than growing in Christ, it becomes an idol.  And so if we are not involved, God will get others involved. And there may be some pain that your children may go through that I won't say that they would have avoided, that they would have been  better prepared for had you been discipling them.  Because they still may face those challenges and those trials. But can you imagine if they face it knowing how to  walk in God?  And so I do.  I'll leave with this story. I remember, and how my mom helped disciple, it was my first time here preaching in a large church and I was so nervous. I wasn't on staff as a pastor or anything, right? I had been a youth pastor back in New York and then when we moved here, church had given me this opportunity to speak. And I was so, I mean, like, it was almost paralyzing me. I was so nervous. Cause I had never spoken to a crowd that large before. And I was talking to my mother and I said, mom, I don't know. I said, I am so nervous. And she said, and just part of that discipleship process and helping me to be prepared. She said, Curtis, do you remember the story? of Jesus um coming in, his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. I said, yes.  She said, what did he come in on? I said, a donkey. I was like, yes. And  she said, when he came in on the donkey, was anyone talking about the donkey or were they talking about him? And they said, the donkey, right?  And they said, yeah, very few people were focused. Yeah, he fulfilled some prophecies with that, but... but people were praising him. I was like, what's your point? She said, you are the donkey.  He said,  go  and bring Jesus to the people and stop worrying about you. No one's paying attention to you.  And it was like, I laughed, but it was just, she didn't erase the problem. She helped prepare me for it. And you know what, when I opened it up, I shared how nervous I was and I shared that story. I actually shared that as my opening and everyone just laughed, right? And it immediately just calmed me down and I was able to share the word of God. And I thought, that's the idea of some of what we're doing with our kids. I was an adult by then, but it was all the other years of her input into my life and her living out her. her Christian walk in front of me that I was willing to listen. And in that listening,  it prepared me for what was in front of me. And I think that's what we do for our kids, but that's what we'll miss if we don't disciple them.  Yeah. All right. Thanks so much for your time, Curtis, and for your thoughts. We appreciate that. Thanks so much. It was my pleasure.  Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon,  you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them in to our faith church texting number  and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.