Hey. You're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the North Side Of Indianapolis. My name is Claire Kingsley. Each week, I'll sit down with one of our preaching pastors to discuss their Sunday sermon. Cut for time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation, and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday.

Thanks for listening. Alright. Hey, Jeff. It's cupboard time. It's a little later than we usually do it, so it's hard to think back to Sunday, because we're recording on Wednesday.

That's right. We've been pressed for time. So Well, mostly, my kids have been sick the whole time. So Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So thank you for making time to do this because No. Of course. Thank you for flexing. So, yeah, someone mentioned recently you got your voice back, and I'm like, it's because we didn't talk for five days in my house because my kids were so sick.

We just were quiet all the time. So Oh, man. You know what? Yeah. What a sigh what a nice surprise.

I didn't expect to get my voice back the way I did, but it's fine. Maybe that's a lead into what we're talking about today. Thank you. Alright. That's good.

Why don't you give us a recap from Nice segue. Yeah. So we were looking at the end of acts 23 and, passage that's really just about, Luke narrating some sort of behind the scenes, transfer of Paul from prison in Jerusalem to, essentially, prison in Caesarea, under a heavy military guard in a letter that the governor writes, the the tribune writes to the governor in Caesarea. And, so honestly, I mean, I I kinda went back and forth like, what? Why is this here?

What is this trying to tell us? And, and and I just I I think well, what I came to is I think the passage is there to help us see Paul is being delivered, through essentially no I mean, no action on his own. And and it's a picture of God working behind the scenes, in Paul's life in this case that's picturing God's rescue and deliverance and and how he works to deliver his witnesses and keep his mission going forward. So, we talked about, the whole idea of deliverance and God being the deliverer. And we we recognize the greatness of that deliverance when we see the, the distress or the danger that we're in.

I mean, Paul is has a threat against his life, and he's, you know, but he's delivered out of it because that's the kind of God we serve. He saves out of deep distress. And the more we see our distress and danger, the more amazed we are at God, which is kind of the second point. The great deliverance comes because of the greatness of God. It's all about what he's done for us.

Paul isn't doing anything here. He's largely just passive. And, you know, there's a contrast in the passage where the Roman governor or tribune is trying to make a big deal of himself and talk about, you know, all that I did and how I was responsible and, you know, which isn't even totally accurate, of course, which is, you know, maybe kind of us a little bit. But when we see god's deliverance and rescue, it's really about what he's done, and and making, you know, making a lot of him and not ourselves. And then I think in the passage, it's also a reminder that we're delivered not just for our own sake, but for the sake of other people.

So Paul is delivered out of this death threat, but he's delivered into a Roman prison. But that's for the ultimate purpose of the fulfillment of this promise that God has made that Paul's going to be his witness in Rome. And we actually get to hear about that a little bit through the letter that he writes from prison in Rome, that even members of Caesar's household have become followers of Jesus because of Paul being in prison. So God delivers Paul in one sense, but he's also still in Roman prison. But even that prison becomes the thing God uses to bring deliverance in other people's lives.

And so we may feel like we're trapped in realities and situations we don't like, and maybe part of it is God's intention to use that for someone else's deliverance through what we're being constrained by or, where God has us. Mhmm. Yeah. So it it was, it was a fun challenge to wrestle through. Why is this passage here particularly?

How does this advance the story of god working through his church, and what does it say for us today? Mhmm. Okay. So I do have a texted in question from the text. Yeah.

Great. Alright. Do you think that Claudius Lysias might be mentioned in any first century Roman documents or early church records? You know, that was, that's an interesting question. I didn't know.

So I actually went and did a little digging, online. One of the upsides of the Internet is so much is available. And there's this whole collection of early church father writings that, you know, because it's in the public domain now. They're just freely available online. So you can go read letters that we still have from followers of Jesus in the first and second and third century and church fathers and sermons and commentaries.

And, so there does not appear to be any mention of him particularly other than just this, occurrence in acts 23 and, you know, just sort of making commentary about his role in the text and in what God's doing there. So, I don't know about any other, like, early Roman writings, but, you know, Tribune was not a super high level guy. I mean, he's the commander of the military garrison, but, you know, this is sort of like a captain in the US army. I mean, you'd have to be, you know, pretty well known for some other thing, than to, you know, probably just have your name recognized down through history otherwise. Mhmm.

Yeah. Okay. Alright. Jeff, what did you have to cut for the sake of time this week? One of the things that, came to mind that is just interesting for us to reflect on is, one is just Luke's perspective maybe on Rome and the Roman Empire and how followers of for some of the first followers of Jesus would have experienced Roman rule and government.

So on the one hand, there's law and order and commerce and communication, which makes the spread of the gospel, you know, relatively easy in in the Roman world. But at the same time, Rome is also an oppressive authoritarian regime, which is known even in its own day for brutality and violence. And so, there's yeah. One, you know, like, interesting question to just sort of think is our world looking more and more like that, and what does that say for us as followers of Jesus? But also to recognize that, even in this case, for example, God is able to work through just sort of the mundane bureaucratic workings of a massive empire to accomplish his purposes and even use the military power of kind of a, honestly, a brutal overpowering regime to work his will in ways that are probably not immediately obvious, to the to the people who are in the middle of it.

And so, the the point is not like, oh, well, you know, it's all good and whatever the governments do is great, But more, we don't always know or understand what God is doing. And, rather than trying to, you know, sort of guess all that, maybe it's also just maybe a reminder for us to to double down more on the things that we are clear about in scripture, like the kinds of things God values, like the fruit of the spirit and the character of the kingdom. And, instead of either condemning or idolizing, you know, the powers of this world to keep our focus on the kingdom in the sense of how we make sense of what the kingdoms of this world are doing. Right? Like, how do I know if this kingdom really is, you know, has God's approval and is advancing what God's pleased with?

Well, what does God care about? What does he value? And and so it's, you know, you can't really sort people and institutions and governments neatly into, like, boxes that way. Right? Like, because Rome had a lot of brutality and violence and idolatry and persecution of Christians, but Rome also at times could be a vehicle for advancing the spread of the gospel.

And that's, you know, probably true of our world too. So I think it it helps us be sober and realistic. So, again, we're not idolizing the world we live in or unduly condemning it. We're recognizing it just happens to be where we live. And I want my values and my perspective of what's going on in the world shaped by scripture, shaped by the values of Jesus' kingdom.

And that helps me sort of sift through things and sift through movements and people and parties and, you know, agendas. Mhmm. Yeah. It reminds me actually just a conversation in bible study this morning, as we're studying revelation. And, someone just said, like, chaos is the opposite of Christ likeness.

Christ was not chaotic. And so when you think about any of the the kingdoms or the, you know, the major, like, cities and regimes over time, there's chaos in any of them. And, like, basically, like, there's Eden, and then there's just everything else. Like, they're all there's just chaos and, like, it's not, unique to our time, but what we could do and what any Christ follower could do at any point in time in history that they're in is find peace and so peace in that part of history, and seeing God's kingdom coming to Earth in that way. Because, again, like, Christ likeness does not work with chaos.

And so, just reminding I I don't know. I don't know if that means anything at all, but just from what you were just saying about, yeah. At any point in time, we could, like idolize a period of time of history or a certain regime or something, or like, I don't know either way, like just, it's not, it's not Eden. So like, it's just, actually, we shouldn't do it. It's just one of many, you know, forever.

So. I love that Claire. I know I totally get that. And that's totally right. And side note, I love the book of Revelation for that, because when when we take a step back and and see what John is trying to do there in the context in which he's writing, it's really, a picture to Christians suffering under, you know, John's picture of Rome, the the Babylon, you know, is the beast.

You know, they're living in an empire that is a violent, greedy, idolatrous beast that demands worship and exclusive loyalty. And John is writing to people to help them see it for what it is so that they're not taken in by it, to recognize that, God is not scared or worried or wringing his hands up in heaven. It's all in heaven is worship and peace and glory and honor, and God is working out his plans in it. And in the meantime, that may involve suffering and loss, and tribulation for his people as we continue to testify and live lives that demonstrate a loyalty to Jesus, our king, and his kingdom and its kingdom's values, which may be in conflict with the world in which we live. Mhmm.

Your comment too though about, the the garden and chaos versus Eden. I just I love that one because that's again, I think exactly some of the imagery John is picking up in Revelation, the contrast. Mhmm. And it's also a reminder that our very first calling as human beings is to go out into the world to bring order and blessing and flourishing to the places where God will send us. To take the the untamed kind of chaos and help it under the our spirit empowered, spirit directed, you know, rule.

I it's hesitant to use that word, but, you know, under God's authority, our spirit directed, spirit empowered, stewardship, to help it reflect more of the order and the beauty and the justice and the flourishing that God intends this world to reflect because it's what he is like. And that's so even as you're saying that, it's like it's really encouraging and centering for me in, you know, we're in a just oh my gosh. Almost feels like a crazy time right now where things are moving so fast and everything's changing, and it just feels all out of control. And it's good for me to recognize, okay, I do care about those things, but I also have probably a limited ability to affect many of them, but I can affect the corner of the world where I live. I can impact my neighborhood.

I can impact how I interact with the people that I engage with where I go shopping or where my kids are in school. I can help bring beauty and flourishing and justice and, and what Jesus looks like to my kids' school and our neighborhood and our mom's play group and my senior center. You know, all those places that god has me, he has me there. Again, that's, you know, part of that, we're we have a great deliverance for the sake of god's great design. And part of his design in delivering us from the kingdom of darkness and slavery to sin is to set us free so that we can reengage that creation purpose of reflecting God's rule and his goodness in the places where he takes us, which is, you know, it's just awesome.

Right? Just to be clear, it was not Claire Kingsley's thought. It was somebody else in Bible study. But it really struck me in the same way way that you're also reflecting this back. Like, I I felt the same way.

I'm like, I need to I would love to sit with that longer. Also, I can't because, like, it was ending, but it was really powerful for me. Yeah. But good stuff to reflect on. Right?

Like, you know, in my mom's play group or my kids' preschool or my workplace, what does it look like for me to be there to try and reflect God's gracious and good rule and and to seek out his good for the people around me. Mhmm. That infuses everything that I'm doing with really deep meaning and significance beyond just the stuff that I'm getting paid to do or or the stuff that's on my to do list for the day. I I get to do it in a way that reflects a design of God's deliverance. Mhmm.

Okay. I wanna ask you one last question about that word, deliverance. Yeah. And it's not a very, well packaged question. I'm gonna ramble a little bit.

So hopefully you can just piece this together for all of us. So as I was listening to your message, I also, in the back of my mind, had the, bottom line from Joey's message a few weeks ago that God often won't like, will not deliver us from our circumstances, but he will be with us through it. And so we're talking about, I think what was, why it was coming up for me is that word deliver or deliverance And his bottom line, and it was in yours, and I'm hearing it over and over. And yet we're saying, like, we have deliverance. We can't count on deliverance.

Like and I I think I understand, pieces of that, how, like, how to hold both. But I would love for you to just maybe tell us, okay, deliverance. Like, how would you define deliverance? Mhmm. Is deliverance similar to redemption?

Like, do we sometimes use them interchangeably? Yeah. And what can we count on? Yeah. What's not guaranteed when it comes to deliverance?

Yeah. So, man, great questions. And, can be hard to tease all that out. I'll try and I'll try and do the best I can. One one of the things that comes to mind is, really helpful insight from seminary, from, like, systematic theology and thinking about what one professor called the tenses of our salvation.

And that is the Bible says, all at the same time, we have been saved. We are being saved. We will be saved. And and I think it's I would say that's kind of the framework for the same kind of thought. Mhmm.

I have been saved. I am saved because of what Jesus has done. It's it's done. And yet I'm also in the process of being saved. I'm being renewed.

I'm being redeemed. I'm being continuously delivered from the remnants of my old sinful self, the world, the flesh, the devil. I'm I have been delivered. I'm I'm being delivered increasingly as I walk with Jesus to hopefully look more like him, to walk more closely with him, to reflect more of what he's like. And and one day, I finally will be delivered, from this, body of sin and death, ultimately, in the new heavens and the new earth in resurrected glory where there will be no more no more remnants of sin holding us back, and we will shine with the reflected glory of Jesus that we were made for.

And and we will be finally and fully delivered. And our lives in this time between, you know, the beginning and the completion of our deliverance are gonna reflect varying elements, varying degrees of that deliverance, both personally, spiritually, even in my life circumstances. And and there's a great mystery about that. That's where all the mystery comes in. The things that we know are that I have been delivered and I will be delivered, and I am being delivered, but how that being delivered gets worked out, goes up and down and sideways in all kinds of directions, not only in my life, but especially when we look at other people's lives.

Why did my kid not get healed when their kid got healed? Why did I not get to have the marriage that I longed for when other people have that? Why have my hopes and dreams and prayers for family and connection or career or whatever not come about the way that it seems to have for other people? Why are Christians in Nigeria, even right now, like, reading the news, suffering and dying for Jesus because of their faith in him when we're living here in peace and freedom and security? And they're not being delivered from the threat of persecution and kidnapping and torture and death for their faith.

And and we are delivered from those fears. There's, there's a there's a just a huge mystery at the end of the day. And, but beyond just saying that, I wanna say I think the things that God allows or brings into our lives are still even ultimately about his purposes to save and deliver us. So and I and I don't wanna make light of any difficulty that anyone's going through. But in this case, for example, Paul is delivered from this threat for death, threat against his life, but he's delivered into a Roman prison.

And he's gonna languish there for, I think, another year and a half or two years. And then he's finally gonna get transferred to Rome where he's also on the way gonna encounter a shipwreck and getting bitten by a poisonous snake. And, you know, church history tells us that all of the apostles except John were martyred for their faith. So were they delivered or not? Well, they were delivered.

I mean, Paul's imprisonment becomes the deliverance for people in Rome who are walking in darkness, who part of Caesar's household come to faith in Christ because Paul's life was available for God to use for the deliverance of other people. So my suffering, my difficulty, my trials, what what seemed like God not delivering me out of this thing. One, there is just a fundamental mystery of God's will and how these things work out, but there is also the hope that none of it is wasted, none of it is unknown, none of it we go through alone because God is with us, and we're more than conquerors in all these things. And, ultimately, even if we don't see any immediate impact, like Paul gets to see often, we do have the promise that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, and character produces hope. So if nothing else, God is taking us through these things perhaps to deliver us from hopelessness and to develop our characters in a way that we in this life will maybe not even get to see the fruit of.

But I do believe that there's reason to say even into eternity, those of us who have walked the path of obedience and trusted Jesus and grown in trusting and loving him through those things that we don't get delivered out of, I I think perhaps even our ability to enjoy and experience Christ in eternity may be greater than those who haven't struggled and suffered and, you know, we're just prevented from experiencing the the suffering. So maybe that maybe the real short answer would be, I think it's the same thing that Joey's saying. God always delivers us ultimately from sin and death in Christ. He doesn't always deliver us from difficulty, but he delivers us through difficulty sometimes. Mhmm.

And we have the hope that none of it's wasted and that will often be through the difficulty that God is doing something in us that he will use to bring deliverance to other people. I mean, the guys who founded AA were alcoholics and they obviously and they use their experience to create a ministry out of their pain and brokenness that has led to the deliverance of other people. And for some people, like, even in that specific case, like, some people have a testimony being delivered miraculously from even the desire to drink again. And for other people, it's one day at a time every day. And I'm just gonna continue to slog through and trust Jesus.

And he hasn't delivered me from the temptation, but he's delivering me through it. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's the best I can do.

It's good. It was a great it was a good answer. Yeah. It it right. I would love it if I could say, you know, walking with Jesus means we're just you know, it's gonna be easy.

We're gonna be delivered. But, you know, there's that passage I closed with a week ago in first second Corinthians one, God comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others in their troubles with the comfort we ourselves have received. Yeah. It's one of my favorite passages actually. One day one day there will be no more trouble to be comforted from.

But in this world that's full of trouble and difficulty and suffering, we are comforted by the god and father of all mercies so that we can comfort others with the comfort we ourselves have received. And that, man, when I remember that, that helps me see my suffering and difficulty differently. Definitely. Yeah. That's a good way to end and a good, good reminder to and hope to just hang on to.

So thank you, Jeff. Yeah. Thank you. It's been good. It's, it's encouraging to me.

I enjoy these times because I appreciate your input and feedback and engagement, and I have learned from you and just talking about these things together, encourages my heart. So thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.

If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following their sermon, you can email them to podcast@faithliveitout.org or text them into our faith church texting number. And we'll do our best to cover it in the week's episode. If this conversation blessed you in any way, we encourage you to share with others. Thanks for listening. We'll be back again next week.