Untitled - June 19, 2026

00:00:00 Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Sustainable Commodities Podcast. I'm Barnaby Patchett, MD of one ninety nine, a communications agency working in sustainability. And with me, as always, is Judith Murdoch from Murdoch Associates. And we work in forest risk commodities. Today. It's just us. We don't have a guest today. Um, instead we're going to be talking about a number of different sustainable commodity events that we've both attended over the past couple of weeks. It's been a busy time, hasn't it? Yeah, it's really busy in the last couple of weeks, um, with events at Chester Zoo and also in London. So, um, yeah, a real opportunity to just talk about all of the people that we've met. Um, and I think that's a key reason why we're just going to talk to each other today. Yeah. It's nice. Um, so in terms of the events, uh, we had the sustainable coconut Gathering Europe, which was from the Sustainable Coconut partnership. We had Sustainable Palm Oil Dialogue twenty twenty six, which is an event from the Rspo. ID and pro Forest. And then you went along to the UK Sustainable Commodities Initiative, which is chaired by Effica. It's a lot going on at the moment. Uh, Judith, where do you want to start? Well, I want to start at the event that I didn't attend, which was the the coconut event, which was the day before, uh, the event, um, that Chester Zoo. So what was it about and who was there? Yeah. So this was the first event, I think, from the Sustainable Coconut partnership in Europe, the sustainable coconut gathering Europe. Um, for those of you that don't know the sustainable coconut partnership, the s e p I've been aware of them for some time. You know, coconuts gone under the radar a bit I think in, sustainability circles, they haven't really been the commodity specific initiatives on sustainability. But SCP is changing that. Uh, you know, it was a really well attended event. I think it was a chance really for them to get across what it is, what the issues are, what they're trying to address. Um, and their solution. It was about sixty people in the room, I think, including some big, big names, uh, from the food industry, uh, some big coconut importers in the UK and some hangers on like me. Um, I guess the interesting thing about it for me was probably how different it is from some of the other certification schemes. Uh, they've got a concept. It's like they call it responsible regeneration. So whereas a lot of the other schemes that we're working in are familiar with tend to focus very heavily on the environmental side. This was much more about the economics and the the sort of future of the industry and its viability. It was about small holder finances. Um, you know, a lot of the challenges that Coconut's facing are the same as in palm oil right now, aging plantations, young people not wanting to go into it, smallholder finances, uh, and this standard and, and their charter is, is designed to, to address that. Um, I mean, there may quite a lot of progress actually, you know, I've, I've been aware of them, I guess about three years and three years ago, they had the, the sustainable coconut Charter, their first kind of outline of, of the sort of principles and what they were going to do. And they've made a huge amount of progress since then. They've got some big name partners on board. They've got some good members in there. Um, in terms of the program, they talked about the standard and how it's different And the issues in coconut, I think Gregory Bardis and John Burt, uh, who are the the team behind it have done a really good job. Um, you know, they, I think at the core of it, it's about ensuring that coconut supply can meet growing global demand in a way that rewards the farmers and increases yields and sort of safeguards the workers and children and protects the planet. Um, the fact it, it's not so focused on the environmental side surprised me a bit because I know obviously there are environmental issues with coconut, but I think it's just a priority list. You know, when they, they were talking about how they came to the standard and how they had spoken to loads of people across the value chain about the big issues in coconut in terms of priorities. And the top ones are aging plantations. They are smallholder farmers not getting enough money. Young people not coming into the industry. The yields being low. Um, and I think, you know, they're doing good work on, on addressing that. Yeah. No, it's a really interesting one because I always, you know, with my head stuck in palm oil, you know, you often hear people say, oh yeah, well, we're going to stop using palm oil and we're going to go and use coconut. And I always sort of smile and say, okay, so do you have any traceability on that? And then do you know anything about the issues within that, particularly a particularly social issues? So I think I would add to that, that, you know, when I've ever talked to people in the coconut industry, it is about the social concerns. And also it's really dangerous because people go up trees when they're not like palm trees, where actually people stand on the ground and, you know, have very long sickles in the end, when when it's like twenty five meters, these trees get really big and people go up them often without harnesses. And then we've always had and you haven't mentioned this, and it is slightly tongue in cheek, the use of monkeys within coconut, which is in certain parts of the world, dumb. I mean, it's not a big thing, but I mean, it is it always amuses me as well, is the outrage of how can you send a monkey up a tree to to pick a coconut? Well, yes. It's not good if it's from the wild and it's had its mother killed or something like that. I'm not, I'm not saying it's good, but I, I am always amused by, you know, some people's reactions. So just one thing I'm interested though, and whether or not you can answer this is, is the standard, um, just for the plantations or does it actually travel through the supply chain? Is it a chain of custody standard? I think it is. Uh, they've got a supply chain standard to go with the origin standard, but how it all works, I can't remember. Um, you have to check on the website. Uh, it was a busy week. Yeah, well that's good. But, I mean, I think that's one of the things about it is that, uh, it's a developing standard. And, and if it's just looking at the plantations themselves, that's a really great start. I mean, that's how our rspo started. They didn't have a supply chain certification standards. So I mean, I think, you know, it's definitely one to, to inquire about and get more and more involved with because I think, you know, obviously, I think one of the reasons that, you know, I don't know, was it well advertised? I don't know how many people went. Obviously, people who are really who are really into it. So it would be chocolate people that are there. And obviously people are using coconut in, uh, potentially earlier chemicals. So, you know, the cosmetic side of the business and, and it's quite clear that, you know, coconut numbers are dropping and, um, and, and there's also concern about contaminants as well. That's one thing I do know. So I don't know if that was talked about about because often you dry the copra and again, you know, the villages that do it and, you know, you basically put it over a fire and the contaminants that potentially come from that is my understanding. Yeah, that was really interesting. And, um, definitely one to watch for the future for sure. Yeah. I think it's important to recognize as well just how far behind and this isn't their fault, but you know, they said we're we're Coco was about fifteen, twenty years ago. Yeah. Compare that to palm. That puts them what, thirty years behind? Yeah. It's a long way. They've got a lot of catching up to do. I don't want to. To say that they are behind implies a negative, that they've just got a long way to go because they're starting from such a different baseline. I mean, they're now raising money for some pilot programs. Um, in terms of replanting, They. They've got some big names on board. They've got the first verified supply coming in. Um, but in terms of, of the standard, I clearly should have paid a lot more attention. Um yeah. I should have been there. I should have been, should have been there. Yeah. But it was um, yeah, it's definitely one to watch. Definitely one to watch. And I think if you're in coconut or use coconut, this is going to be the leading one. I don't see any others challenging it. Um, that's a good thing. When you look at um palm oil, you know, Rspo leads the way with Ispo, which is the Indonesian and Malaysian standards are actually in country. And Rspo is not only in country, but also the supply chain. It makes it less confusing if you've ever looked at soya. I mean, I've just been doing a piece of work on soya and I mean, you know, I don't know. There's ten, there's ten you could choose from not only supplier based schemes that people do as well as, um, Proterra and tres and so on. So I think actually it can have its negatives, but actually it's quite good if everyone rallies one round, one standard and, and also industry gets involved, um, to set the standards, um, uh, and to just, um, to improve it. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, in terms of the stuff I can remember and the stuff that I know that they are delivering, they have got a, a digital traceability platform as well, I think was it called links, s p links, which kind of allowed people to sort of simplify the, the reporting, uh, and to increase transparency across the industry. So, so they are working on, on that side of things as well. Yeah. And they're raising money for an impact fund where they can do, you know, do some more good work on the ground. So yeah, go, go and have a look at them. If you're in coconut, I think is the message. Yeah. At this stage we get them on as a as a guest to the podcast as well. We have reached out, we have reached out and he has made positive noises. So, uh, yeah, stay tuned and we'll get him on. Uh, and he can, he can tell me everything that I should have listened to first time around, which is characteristic. Yeah. No. Well, moving on then to the next event, which was the following day, which was, uh, the sustainable palm oil dialogue, um, hosted at, uh, again at Chester Zoo by Rspo and I think ID and pro forest. So what, what were your initial views of, of that? Um, I mean, I like Spod I, it's the one of the first events I attended of three years ago, I think. Um, and now I've been going to all these events fairly often. It's, you know, the networking is really good. The venue, Chester Zoo, I thought they did a really good job in terms of hosting the event. You know, it's not set up as a giant conferencing facility. These sparred in the past has always been a big you know, it's a hotel, a corporate venue set up for it. Um, but I thought they, they managed that really well. Yeah. I thought the program was good, uh, as well. Like, I mean, the focus of it was resilience. I think what, what was the, the title of it in terms of sparred? It was resilience in palm oil thriving in a turbulent world. Yeah. So resilience is definitely the, the, I don't want to say buzzword, the theme of sustainability this year. Um, and I thought I thought the program was very relevant to that. Uh, I think because I was running or moderating one of the panels as well, it made it a bit of a more special event for me personally. Um, in terms of the, the themes discussed, What what were you kind of what took what were you taking in? Yeah. Well, I mean, just to, you know, uh, the whole point about resilience, I think the, some of the key, key initial speakers, I mean, the, the opening speaker was, was, was, was fantastic. And, um, Mark Stevens yeah. And I thought he was really good because I just, I just like the way that he was challenging about, you know, um, just talking a bit about history. I like his analogy when he sort of said, I forget what the dates were about. We invented the tin can in whatever. And it was, I don't know, like fifty years later, we invented the tin opener. So it's, it's that kind of thing. And so I love that. I think the bit as well. The second group after that, uh, was talking, um, had, uh, Unilever and a, a, uh, and Gary Lewis of Nyoda and Katie C on the panel with Ruben and just talking about the resilience and the market. I think one of the things not a criticism, but an observation was, was that the UK is a really special place in the fact that we are one, we are an island and two, we are probably at the most advanced in terms of certified material. I mean, our raw material is, you know, about ninety five percent of everything that's coming in as crude and refined is already certified, and nearly the majority of that is segregated. So what you did get was a bit of an argument about, oh, we should also be looking at a broader, more responsibly sourced, because when you're actually looking at the market globally, um, you know, if you argue that rspo is twenty percent of the market, what, what's happening to the rest of it? Yeah, it's covered by the And EPA policies. I think Unilever in particular was sort of saying, oh, you know, we we have to think differently and was slightly dishing segregated. I thought that was a bit unfair to the UK. So I think that was a bit that was missing for me, was actually sort of saying where the UK is, but adding on to the point that he was trying to get across, is that how do you change the rest of the market? And, uh, it's this whole thing about EU doctor as well will mean that the majority of the material that's coming into Europe will be segregated. Then it's this, I think, ongoing theme. And there were different panels where they throughout the day about carbon and smallholder inclusion. Yeah. You know, how are you, how are you going to control some of that? Um, and particularly smallholders and I, and I really did a lot of networking with people and we were talking about smallholders and, and, you know, people wanting about, you know, talking about carbon. So I think those were my, uh, you know, initial takeaway if you like. Yeah, yeah, the smallholder one definitely always comes across. I think it's been a theme of a panel at every single palm oil event I have ever been to. Yeah. Um, and I this time, you know, there was, there was a bit of a direct call out as well. It's like we always talk about this, but what have people actually done in the last three years on it? Yeah, yeah. There's almost a call to come on, put your money where your mouth is and start actually bringing them in. We've known about the problems that smallholder exclusive. We know there's a replanting issue. We know that, you know that some of them aren't connected to the, um, uh, to the supply chain in a way that allows them to, to offer segregated what, what's the solution? I think Reza from wild Asia, who we were also working with. Um, he had a really good point about kind of addressing that eighty percent. Yeah. As well. Like, like what those are the people where you can make the most difference. The twenty percent are already at a good standard. Yeah. So if we're going to in Europe with EU, we're just going to hoover up the good work. Where's the incentive from us to be improving the rest of the industry? Yeah. No absolutely. And I think that is one of the biggest points that you you can put across is, um, is about the rest of the world and our influence on the rest of the world. It's maybe, um, not what businesses want to hear if they feel that they've achieved everything, but actually influencing and ensuring, um, smallholders and, you know, maybe we should just, you know, stop buying from smallholders and say small farmers and actually think about small farmers in the UK and how we would like to be treated and smallholder farmers in, you know, places like Malaysia, Indonesia. And I think one of the key things is, is about, you know, education. What what is the best way forward? And Reza talked a lot as well. We've, we've been chatting with him about, you know, fertiliser for an example. So this, the global hit, um, with Iran and the fact that you need, um, need, uh, fertiliser coming through the, the, that particular, the Strait of Hormuz. Yeah. Strait of Hormuz and, and what does that mean? And, and a lot of the projects he's talking about is, is to get farmers to produce their own fertilisers through, uh, using fermented, uh, ingredients, etc. so, and then think about regenerative agriculture. And it's, it's roughly forty percent of the market. I mean, if you're looking at Thailand, it's eighty. Yeah. Um, about that sort of sort of forty fifty in Indonesia, Malaysia. But again, it's, it's how do you influence these people? And also in other previous studies that we've seen on smallholders, smallholders don't have to be this kind of like, you know, poor poverty driven individuals. They can actually be, um, you know, again, a friend of ours, Thais Pasman, talked a bit about, you know, being in the taxi with the taxi driver and the taxi driver was saying, oh, well, I own palm oil plantations. That's what I do my taxi driving for. I buy the land and then I get migrant labor to farm it for me. So we've also got to think this is an opportunity for entrepreneurs and young people. Um, so again, get encouraging them to pick up, you know, better habits is, is quite crucial. So yeah, I think, I think we need to, yeah, definitely get more involved in smallholder projects, or at least at least be better educated in what is happening on the ground. Um, but I think the, the, the models are there, the mechanisms are there. Yeah. You can include them if you want to. Now you just have to do it, I think is the message. And, and you know, it would be awful if in five years time this conversation, we're still saying how do you include smallholders in supply chains? We know how um. Yeah, yeah. And I, I think it is, it's a, it's a time for action one. The carbon piece was interesting though, kind of switching gears a bit. Um, so I, I watched the, uh, breakout session on low carbon palm. Uh, so there's Manuel from Durban talking about the work that they've done. I mean, their carbon figures are great in terms of, of what they've managed to achieve. He did point out that it's not necessarily with the sort of land conversion and life cycle emissions. It's not necessarily possible for everyone, but there were some really good mechanisms in there that the rest of the industry could, could implement. Um, they're also doubling down on, they're really investing in, in the regenerative agriculture side. So they've got regen organic certification, which I think they're about to roll out. Um, I think that's a good move, you know, in terms of if you, if you want to, from, from, not just from a environmental perspective, but from a kind of reputational perspective, if you want to make sustainable palm oil look good, regenerative, organic, sustainable palm oil is another really big step in the right direction. Um, and with regen being so I don't want to say trendy, but it's another big theme of the year. Yeah, everyone's talking about it. It's a good opportunity and uh, yeah, it should be, should be applauded. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And definitely understanding what regenerative agriculture means in the palm oil industry is something that I think would, would benefit from, um, a level of clarity, but for sure. And obviously your comms panel was, was very, very good. I think it was my most, you know, most favourite event of the, you know, the session. Yeah. Keep it coming, keep it coming. Yeah. That's fine. You know a good a good panel on. Do you want to just maybe talk about what your thoughts were of the the comms panel. Yeah. So the comms panel from boycotts to buy in how to change negative consumer perceptions on palm oil was the the full title. So I think the kind of idea behind it, this was the first comms panel they'd had at a spa event was that whilst we've made really good inroads on convincing businesses that palm oil can be sustainable and that it's the right way to go, that message just hasn't filtered through to consumers. I mean, when I started working with with you in whatever it was, two thousand and eight, and we were doing the launch of Green Palm. Yeah. Consumers hated palm oil. Yeah. And now in twenty twenty six, the most successful narrative in palm oil is still palm oil free. So we haven't got very far. So it's yeah, hard work. Yeah, it is hard work. But I think, um, you know, that was the, the focus of the panel is what can we do and what do we need to do to change that? Um, and I think my, my thoughts on it were we need to go on the offensive. You know, everyone has their sustainable palm oil comes at the moment and they use them like a shield to be pulled up whenever palm oil gets dragged into the limelight. And they can say, well, look, ours is ours is good. But we're always starting from that same axiom that palm oil is somehow fundamentally bad. At. And while that's the case, I'm never going to change minds. We need to go on, you know, need to be confident, go out there, come together. Um, and on the panel we had, um, Charlie Caton from Ferrero, Emma Heathcoat James from Little Soap Company and, uh, Kat Barton, formerly of Chester Zoo, now of um, World Association of Zoos and Aquariums talking about it because I know Ferrero have been trying to get a nice consumer comms group together and trying to get people to collaborate for at least the last five years. I was looking back through my emails, and there was a meeting in two thousand and twenty one where they were talking about a big campaign which never got off the ground. And, and, you know, everyone on the call was very I remember at the time, it was very kind of supportive. But when it comes to actually doing it, it's been really hard to get those collaborative efforts off the ground. Um, one of the collaborative, collaborative efforts that has been, I think, pretty successful has been obviously the Chester Zoo campaign, the sustainable palm oil communities and sustainable palm oil cities and sustainable palm oil ambassadors program. Um, and, you know, that has reached, you know, in terms of footfall, it's probably millions of people. Yeah. No, absolutely. And that is if you like the elephant in the room, because, um, sadly that campaign has been drawn to a close and um, uh, it's, you know, it's been decided by um people at the zoo, but that should no longer continue. And I think it's been driven. Um, I mean, I, you know, I don't know, one hundred percent, but some of what I was talking to to various people was it's been driven by the fact that not all of the sustainable communities and cities actually got over the line with the actual level of APIs that were set. Um, and that that is, and it's just been seen as a change of direction, not to focus just on palm oil, but I think it, I think it's sad. They called a program on looking at forests about protecting forests earlier in the forests. Yeah. The forests, that was it. That was pulled back end of last year. Yeah. So I just, I suppose I, you know, the one message that I've got is it's when you get people talking, they're talking in a positive way and it allows that conversation. So you can't measure it on, you know, twenty six cafes in East Yorkshire, um, support sustainable palm oil because twenty six cafes in East Yorkshire don't use that much palm oil. No. But if you can educate them and say, hey, do you realize that the chips that you're frying are are fried in palm oil and you know, it's coming from areas where, you know, it's been grown sustainably and this is what it means. I think it's just so important. And I mean, I personally was involved in the program at the deep in in Hull, which is an aquarium. And loads of people said, well, what, what's an aquarium getting involved for? They're worried about deforestation and the oceans and the runoff of soil and fertilizers and how keeping oceans alive are really, really important, but affected by deforestation. And they've had a great, great campaign. I mean, I don't know which way they will go. I mean, the hope is, is that some of these communities will carry on. But yeah, a really sad day. And I think that, you know, obviously it was a it was a point of conversation and whether or not industry and others could come together to try and create something different. I mean, I think it's, it's Chester's right to decide that it wants to do that, but it's a really, really sad, sad time. And I think it's also done without actually interviewing the communities and what it actually meant to people. And as I've said, you know, I know that I've got the local council talking about it. I've got, you know, the schools involved, um, lots of different people talking about it. And I think if you don't change the perception of palm oil, we just go round and round in circles. And one thing that I would just say, it allows you to educate people by saying, well, what do you think is in your toothpaste? What do you think is in your soap? What do you think is in that very spread? Uh, what's in, um, you know, printer ink, uh, what's in biodiesel? Uh, you know, what could be in aviation fuel when you fly? Because that again, is these things are happening and they're happening all around oils and fats because palm oil is the biggest, uh, oil that is produced. It's probably going to be palm oil. So it's kind of like wake up, stop being defensive and just sort of, you know, this as I was eating my lentil crisps the other day, I was thinking, oh, these are nice, made from lentils. And I turned the puck over and it said suitable for vegans, non GM and no palm oil. And I just thought, fantastic, you know what is all that message about? It's it's it's a it's no palm oil. Why would it be in here anyway? Why are you using that as a marketing tool? Um, I just because they know what the perceptions are, you know, that's why Iceland did it. That's why it's brand opportunism. And if you we need to kill the opportunity if you want to change that. Um, in terms of the Chester Zoo program, I thought the comms around it being perfectly frank were dreadful. Yeah. Um, and, you know, there's ways it's, as you say, it's completely their right to close it down. It's completely their right to go in a different direction. And they will continue to do really good conservation work. I don't want to attack that in any way, but in terms of they canceled this program, got an email to the ambassadors the day before Europe's biggest palm oil conference. Yeah. What are you thinking? Yeah. The message that that puts out for a start. Yeah. Anyway, and, and, um, you know, I, I think there are already things happening in the background. In fact, I know there are to build a successor to that. Um, but I don't view it as a failure if Chester Zoo really does, I view if that's what failure looks like. It was a very good failure. Two hundred of the businesses across the UK, um, a huge amount of press. And I think the model works in terms of having the zoo there, because then it's not coming from the industry who no one is going to trust given their, uh, perceptions about palm oil. I like it. And I think, you know, I would have hoped that that something can continue in that vein and that everyone will get involved. Yeah. Anyway, we'll draw a line under that, I think. Yeah. No, absolutely. So we're you know, we're outraged of, of, of the podcast. So. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think, um, but yeah, no, let's see what, what comes in the future. And I know we're, we're both invested in what we could do. So if anyone is interested or just has any thoughts or ideas, you know, please reach out because, you know, we don't want to see these kind of things disappear. So just to be know and we won't let it disappear either. We won't let it disappear. I mean, I've, I've spent too long doing this for a start. It's become it's more than just a professional. It's more than just what I do. It's something that I really want to change. And I've spent a lot of time and effort and will continue to do so until that changes. Um, so yeah, you've got, if you're planning on doing anything, you've got allies who will support you, and I think the industry will continue to do that. On the promotion of sustainable palm oil. Yeah. Um, okay. So now to the event that I didn't go to. Now down to London, to the one that you're not invited to because you're in PR. So it's the um, but specifically, um, so it's the UK SDI, which is, uh, run by Africa and the UK. SDI is the UK Sustainable Commodities Initiative, which is sponsored through partnership for the forest, which in turn is sponsored through government money. Um, basically it was a gathering of eighty people from industry, um, uh, hosted twice a year. Um, and it was a real chance to come together. So I also work with Africa as an associate and, um, we, so the objective really was it's updating industry. So government were there. Um, so we touched on touched on UDR and we also touched on the UK forest risk commodities. Uh, there's no news. So there's no news. Nothing's happening, nothing. Nothing's happening. So still very apologetic to say that there has been no advancement on any regulation on deforestation through UK government. There was an acknowledgement about Northern Ireland and the difficulties. Um, I did a presentation on earlier chemicals and um the slight faux pas. Be interested to hear from people about annex one, which is now been extended to include a, you know, a small. Sarah. Yeah. So soap noodles and also different, um, fatty acids, but what they haven't included is surfactants. Now the surfactants will be made in Europe out of the ingredients that are in annex one, but if you'd included them in annex one, it would mean that people would have to report on surfactants if they made them in India or China. Now the threat is is, well, I'm not going to make my surfactants in Europe because I've got to go through all of this due diligence process and traceability. So it's going to be interesting to see what the reaction is, because that was going to explore that one a bit more. I think that's another there's something that's not discussed in EU as much because you're only reporting under one commodity, the annex one per product. Essentially there is if you're using if you're making a multi commodity product and you're bringing in all of those, if you're the first operator, you're bringing them all in from an admin perspective, the incentive is I'll make them abroad and just bring in the finished goods. Yeah, it seems very counterproductive. Yeah, absolutely. And so that was a it wasn't the full. It was only one slide of my presentation. But, you know, it was really important. And I know that from an ethical point of view, that's one of the things that we, we, we talk about a lot, but it was very clear to us, uh, any policy makers that, you know, be very, very careful about what you do because if you start making certain things more difficult for individual businesses, they will, they will find an easier route. I was listening to somebody talking about oil refiners, as in petrochemicals this morning, and just saying, because it's easier and cheaper to have oil, uh, fuel refined basically was that was the point of it is that, um, all of our refineries are shutting in, in the UK. So I think out of, I don't know, some incredible number of, say sixty X amount of years ago, we're now down to four. And that's all driven by, uh, um, labor cost and energy cost. So yeah, completely sort of, you know, different. Um, but again, if you do things like that, you're putting, you know, putting manufacturing out of the UK. So a big sort of message there. Um, but yeah, so an interesting, interesting conversations really about, um, uh, looking at, uh, you know, what's coming up and the different working groups. And then also Reza of wild Asia, um, uh, got the opportunity to speak and talk a little about his spiral project and, um, what he was doing. So that was again, really nice to hear about, uh, regenerative agriculture and smallholder support as well. So a, really, a really good session. Um, and sorry you missed it. Really sorry. Yeah, I would have liked to have seen it. Um, but I do understand, you know, it is a, it's an industry event and it's completely, I mean, full disclosure, I've worked with Africa, so they are holding the principle firm that they're not having anyone but industry there, which I respect that that's fine. Um, but I would, you know, I then just have to ask everyone what, what went on, uh, in terms of the, you mentioned the oleochemicals side sparred, there were a few more chemical companies there than, than I'd seen before. Are you noticing more engagement on the sustainability side from Oleochemicals? Yeah, definitely. Because there's a big drive now that, um, RSP a mass balance, um, isn't going to change within earlier chemicals. It's just too difficult. Um, and mainly because if you start segregating material, it costs an awful lot more. You need more tanks. Um, and it's just not going to happen. So, uh, people are very sort of keen to understand more and get more, more involved as, um, not hiding behind the fact that if you look at a shampoo or a tube of toothpaste, you can't decide where palm oil is. Um, because it's, it's not labeled as palm oil because it's within an ingredient. So classic would be glycerin. Glycerin can be made from palm oil. So, um, you don't know if it's palm related or not. And under e you doctor the glycerin h s code in annex one is for everything. So it's you can't even decide from that. You'd have to say well I'm not I'm not going to give you a due diligence report because this is made from rapeseed. You know, it's that kind of thing. So anyway, it's um, so I think definitely, definitely. And I, I, I, I must admit myself that, you know, I was surprised how many people had come. Maybe it's because some people think, well, I've already delivered it within the food sector. Um, and I don't need to do any more. Whereas the earlier chemical guys are really starting to feel the pressure of do need to know traceability and people are asking the questions and I can hide behind the fact you don't understand what's on ingredients list, but people are getting to know and, um, you know, scrutiny might be here soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and I think retailers are really pushing for it. So yeah, no, it was a, it was definitely, it's a, it's, it's a big point of interest about traceability. Um, and what you could find out how can you, how can you layer your information up to prove there is no deforestation in your supply chain? So what about some of the other commodities, whether I mean, we talked quite a lot about palm at the UK, SCA what what else was on the, uh, on the agenda? What were the other big issues can focus on soya. Um, and because of soy meal, um, there is a, I see, which don't ask me what the acronym is, but it's, uh, basically looks after animal feed in, in the UK and they've launched a new standard cover, uh, materials. So it's E u d r compliant both for palm and for soya and then b s I, um, epic has been working with them to create a new soya standard. So that was discussed at length. And then just touching on the fact that there's a coffee and a cocoa working groups and just, uh, very, very brief update on really on them. I suppose the final slide was, um, of interest to say, uh, you know, funding has been cut and at the moment this is, this funding means that this is a free of charge membership stroke event. And, and, you know, the, the view is, is that, you know, will people put something in the kitty to have private and public sector funding for something like this? And would this be something going forward? So I think the pressure on funding, uh, is really beginning to grow. Um, I think that's global, isn't it? That's global. Yeah. It's it's sad to see. But you know, you see it even in the come side and the messaging around sustainability, it's all become what's the business case for it? Yes. Oh yeah. That's why I think resilience is such a popular theme as much as it's incredibly important. It also frames it and aligns it more with those corporate targets and the sort of financials and the long term financials, which is, you know, do what you got to do to to get the work done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, no, I just think it is, it's very, it's, it's changing. And I did have a discussion with somebody yesterday about, you know, what if e u d r destroys rspo within Europe? Um, because it just seen as well we why would we get certified? Um and then what would be the impact elsewhere. As you know, people will say, well, we don't have to do this anymore. It's just so important to think about, uh, climate change, about, you know, looking after land, thinking about, you know, producing things legally. It's just so important to keep, you know, certification going and, and be thinking about sustainability because yeah, ultimately, you know, you could be the tin can without the can opener if you're not careful. And I think that's just what is so important. Reuben actually covered that at the, uh, Reuben Grunsfeld, uh, our first guest on this, this podcast, he actually covered that at the sustainable coconut event in terms of the role of certification, because I think the Rspo has managed to position itself pretty well. Yeah. In terms of, um, he was talking about some of the stuff that they're working on with the competent authority in Holland in terms of how Rspo certification isn't going to be a free pass to compliance, but it's definitely going to be a big stepping stone towards EU compliance. And I think that that is going to be the role for the for the for the more stringent, um, standards like Rspo as it meets a lot of the criteria. So, you know, they're not going to inspect as many of your shipments. There's, there's some, some advantages there. And I think that that's the, and also, uh, you know, they've got the, the tech platform, they've got Prisma, which will provide a lot of the data you need for the, the compliance piece in the first place. So I think that's probably the role, but that's a wider move, I think in the EU as well of making making voluntary certifications completely subservient to the wider EU legislation, which I'm not a massive fan of, but that that is the direction of travel. Yeah. yeah yeah. No. Definitely. No. It's a fair point. An interesting point as well that it's the Dutch that have actually acknowledged that because most of the palm oil will be coming through Rotterdam. So that is a fantastic, you know. Uh, yeah. And I think people should keep supporting the rspo as well, just from a, from a personal perspective, in terms of, I know how much good work they've, they've done. And, and yeah, you know, I don't think we'd be anywhere near where we are in terms of palm oil sustainability without the existence of that organisation. Yeah, no, I agree. And I mean, obviously I spend most of my working class sort of twenty years working on the Rspo with different projects or outsiders and rspo auditor or working on, you know, benefits of rspo sustainable palm oil. So yeah, for sure. Very, very supportive of it. Yeah. Going forward. Yeah. I have no such, I have no such connections. But I still, you know, I still think it's good. Um, yeah, I think that's probably a good, good place to, to, to end it. I mean, have you got any, any sort of final thoughts on where we're at with the sustainable commodity side? There's still a lot of appetite for it. There's still a lot of engagement, which I found heartening from across the three events. People do still want to ensure that sustainability is progressing in these commodities. Yeah. And I guess the final thing for me was that, you know, we were seeing some new faces, but also all old faces of people who said, hey, we've just gone through a restructure over the last couple of years and didn't feel that we could come back to these events, but now we're ready to come back. So, you know, definitely the conversation with someone on those front. And yeah, I, I think it's, I think it was very valuable. And, um, it was, it was great to have spod in the UK. I don't know where it will be next year. It will obviously be in Europe, but I think it was a real benefit to have people coming over here. So yeah, very, very heartened about the activity around, um, sustainable commodities in general. And, um, you know, definitely, um, the way people still talk about palm and still want to, to, to, you know, to tell the story and, and to improve things. And I think it is changing all the time. So yeah, it's been a busy couple of weeks, but I've really enjoyed it. And um, yeah, watch this space on coconut and, uh, see where we get with, uh, with palm oil and what could be next on comms for palm oil. Great. Well, stay tuned to the Sustainable Commodities podcast, where we will be covering these topics in detail in future episodes. Thank you very much for listening. Please like, share, subscribe. Um, it does help the show. Thank you. Thanks very much. Bye bye.