S2 E7 Gordon
===


Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt and we are back with another episode of the permission slip Today. I am here with Leroy Gordon. Thanks for joining me, Leroy. 

LeRoy Gordon: Hey Matt. Thanks for having me. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, amazing to see you. It's been a couple years. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, it's been a minute. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So Leroy is a fitness instructor, Fitness and Yoga Instructor, a Reiki Healer and a Men's Group Leader.

Matt Kosterman: Before that, he was what? A police officer, 

LeRoy Gordon: police officer, pro wrestler. Jujitsu fighter, like all, all those things in big pursuits. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, literally on the tour with pro wrestling. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So welcome, thanks for being here. Mm-hmm. And, uh, today we're just gonna, we're gonna talk about how, what Leroy's journey was from a kid in the, I mean, you grew up in the south side.

LeRoy Gordon: I grew up in Cabrini Green, actually, which Cabrini Green isn't too far from here, but it's, you know, a similar situation as to what a lot of us know about the south side is a little bit rougher spot. Um, there is, you know, a little bit more gun violence on the south side. Um, Cabrini was rough in the day.

LeRoy Gordon: Cabrini, yeah. When I grew up was just, I'd say on the tail end of its like roughest phase. Like it got famous right before I was born probably, or during, during my like infancy and it was still, uh, pretty rough coming up. Yeah. It wasn't like a place that I felt. Necessarily safe growing up in, there's a level of comfort 'cause you know the people, but there's always a level of, oh, I gotta like watch my background here from walking down the streets once I was a of a certain age and you know, walking by myself and things.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Because I mean it was literally the projects. Yeah. Like it was high rise. I mean it's a target now. 

LeRoy Gordon: It's a target now it's a target. It's some nice buildings and it is uh, one very empty field. Maybe two very empty fields. Very empty field. Yeah. Um, but you know, it's got the gentrification treatment at this point, but at back in the day, rough spot.

LeRoy Gordon: And um, my grandmother was always just on the, you're not gonna be like one of those boys train. And for better and for worse, I think it gave me some ideas around achievement, ideas around getting out, uh, ideas around survival. Yeah. That served me in a lot of ways and maybe some other ways I think I appreciate have that I've unlearned at this point.

LeRoy Gordon: Um. But I can take it all the way back to the beginning there. So, grew up in Cabrini Green, um, to a single mother. 

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

LeRoy Gordon: My father was a little bit older than her and just not able to show up, uh, ultimately with his own trauma. Had his own trauma. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. My mom was 18 and she had me, and, um, back then she couldn't go to school anymore if she was pregnant.

LeRoy Gordon: And my grandmother for all the benefits that she had, um, given me and my life, she was a pretty big force in also saying that my father was not welcome around, uh, if he could not show up at a certain level. So he kind of buzzed off for most of my life, I'd say. Okay. I saw him a few times in childhood, but other than that, um, I'm with my mom and my grandmother essentially sit sitting in as that second parent.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: And, uh. Grew up there, grew up in Cabrini Green, uh, went to school outside of Cabrini Green. Okay. Which was pretty key I think, in just giving me a worldview that was a wider scope. And 

Matt Kosterman: that was just because of the way the Chicago Public Schools worked or? 

LeRoy Gordon: I think so. I could have gone to like, how the schools work is you live in an area, you go to a certain school.

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: I ended up going to a magnet school, uh, which was literally just outside of Cabrini Green in Old Town. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: And, um, I don't know what they had to do to get me in. Maybe it's just an apply and find out lottery system, something like that. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, but I was able to go there instead. And, um, a lot of things about that.

LeRoy Gordon: My, I have two younger sisters. One sister did get to go to Franklin. Uh, the, the second sister did not, she ended up not being able to get grandfathered in, which I think was a great disservice to her. Yeah. As she ended up going in school, inside the projects still. And they just did not have the resources.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, I don't know if they have the. Maybe the, the educators that really are, um, committed or there may be a blend of, of, of experiences, uh, in the teaching staff that she ended up having. But all, all that to say, the, the, the schools at least in that time weren't super, I, I don't know, get, getting the results.

LeRoy Gordon: Supportive. Supportive support. Yeah. Supportive. Getting the results that I was able to get at where I went. Yeah. Yeah. So go to that, that school, um, end up going to Walter Payton for high school, which was, I, I do not know if I would've pulled that off if I went into, um, you know, one of the schools in the projects and is one of the best schools, best high schools in the state now.

LeRoy Gordon: And that was, I dunno, just kinda set me up, you know. Okay. Okay. In, in the ways I think were important, like educationally, you know, get good with math, good reading, all the things. Um, but all, all the while I am, you know, living at home with my mom and she is a young mother, uh, with her trauma as well, and. Um, you know, it's, it's a, a not super fun environment, you know?

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, yeah. Um, dealt with physical abuse, verbal abuse, and just a lack of affection in general. That, um, you know, I think led me to the stuff that I have had, uh, you know, growing up and, uh, had to find myself, you know, unpacking in life. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So what was the impetus then for, did you enter the police force after high school?

Matt Kosterman: Was that, 

LeRoy Gordon: so I, I was a police officer a very short time. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: I'll say this part, but it was a cool time, uh, and I would never do it again. So I did it after college. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: And, uh. This is like, so 

Matt Kosterman: Peyton set you up to go to college. So you went 

LeRoy Gordon: Peyton set me up to go to college. Yes. I also went to college, went to, uh, United, uh, university of Illinois Chicago, uh, graduated psych degree, and with like, no intention or like very little intention of using it to actually step into, you know, uh, a therapy room and, and, and do talk therapy or anything along those lines.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. But it's something I was interested in, um, and all that with at the time, you know, high school, I was a big football guy. Okay. And I was like, all right, let's try get. To college through this didn't work out how I wanted it to, and I moved my next pursuit, which has always been a physical pursuit.

LeRoy Gordon: Right? Right. There's always one. I moved to Juujitsu and that becomes my life at that time, for that five, six year period, I'm like, this is it. This is all I want to do. I want to compete. I wanna become world champion. I was very good, but I found myself feeling a bit unfulfilled during the tail end of that, and I can loop that back to pro wrestling a little later.

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, but during that stretch, which was, you know, college and juujitsu, that's a pretty much overlapping time. Um, I'm like, okay. I gotta have some plan for in case this does not work out. But also I'm, there's no way I want to be in an office doing anything. And around that time, police, they just started to hire, right?

LeRoy Gordon: Ah, yeah. And they hired by putting up billboards about You can make this much after this many years. I'm like, oh, I'd love to make that much this many years. 

Matt Kosterman: Who wouldn't? 

LeRoy Gordon: Who wouldn't? Right. And I've always, you know, had some, some form of call to, uh, you know, call to duty. Right? Yeah. Um, which I think our culture kind of can set up in boys, um, with, you know, video games and, and movies and the superhero stuff and like, you know, wanting to help being a good like, you know, source of that.

LeRoy Gordon: But then like. Like this big thing. If I, if I do this, if I go be a hero, like I am bigger, I'm important, and I can make six figures in my first three years. Um, so I'm just like, yeah, lemme sign up for that. Like, I'll take the test and, you know, that was a breeze. Not a big deal. I think it should be harder to become a police officer again, another conversation.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, but that, that, that was not a big deal. It was just then I'm just waiting for a call, right? They put you in the lottery, you wait for a call, okay. And then you, you're hired on as long as you pass that test. And then the other one's after, you know, little psych stuff, eye detector, physical stuff, uh, easy thing.

LeRoy Gordon: So eventually they gave me the call, um, and by that time it started pro wrestling and, uh. There I had to make a couple decisions with those two, um, along the journey. And at the time I was just like, yeah. Um, I'm done with college. Jujitsu's, feeling unfulfilling. I'm a personal trainer at this time, which was my job.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Uh, throughout, you know, from 19 through now essentially. And, um, and training's like fine, but it's not like, you know, the big bucks. And it's, I know at that point that it's not like my calling. So I go ahead and I, I go to the academy. Uh, we do about six months in the academy, about six months out. And by that time I'm like, wrestling, is it?

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. And I need to pursue wrestling. Okay. And, uh, this is just fine. And, 

Matt Kosterman: and what was the tieback to Juujitsu you said about, about the wrestling that got, that was the 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. So that was 

Matt Kosterman: the impetus 

LeRoy Gordon: for Yes. That decision about pro wrestling was the impetus for everything. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: Literally everything. Um, I've wanted to do it since I was a kid.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. I, um, I think I, I started watching like, seriously around seven or eight and the boys at school are talking about it and we all want to be the rock or stone cold, Steve Austin and Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, we're doing it in the playground and I'm like, oh yeah, this is like really fun and. I, I'm loving not just the action of it all and the trash talk of it all, but I'm loving the theater of it all.

LeRoy Gordon: You know what I mean? Right. The performance, uh, the performance of it all. And, you know, I Go ahead, put that in my back pocket and like, it's something like, oh, that'd be cool to do. But that's like one of those dreams, like, you know, being an actor in an astronaut or like one of those, the super lofty things, um, that ultimately some people do that I, it is probably not gonna be my path because I'm just, you know, a, a average dude, but I'm, I can get to college playing football though.

LeRoy Gordon: So that becomes the grind. Um, you know, middle school through high school, jujitsu comes right after that because I need to pursue that. I need to chase down that desire to, um, you know, to win, to get, to be the best on a team, to get to lead a team, all those things. And, um, around that time where Jiujitsu was becoming very unfulfilling, um.

LeRoy Gordon: Training was very unfulfilling. Like, I'm at a point where I'm just like, oh shit. Like, what am I actually going to do? Like with my life 

Matt Kosterman: as a jujitsu, 

LeRoy Gordon: like to, as a juujitsu person, I become an instructor or whatever, but I'm just like, and I'm loving the training. I love the, the feel of going one-on-one with a human.

LeRoy Gordon: Like I still love it to this day, but I know that's not feeding me, like, not feeding something uhhuh like in here, right? Yeah. In your heart. Um, in my heart and, and I, I see the opportunity to, to make money and it's like, well, I'll be able to take my care of myself if I do this police thing. Technically I am helping people and, um, you know, I have my ideas about it at the time, but it just like, I can be a different one, right?

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. I can be a different kind of police officer than, than a lot of people think. So I, I take the path I take, but wrestling is just there bubbling under the surface and it was bubbling under the surface when I chose Juujitsu and I chose Juujitsu 'cause I'm like. When I thought about wrestling as an 18-year-old, I'm like, that's just unrealistic.

LeRoy Gordon: There's no school around here. 

Matt Kosterman: Yep. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. Like I am a like 180 pounds soaking wet. You're skinny little guy. You know, I'm a little skinny guy at the time. Tall, tall, tall, skinny guy. Yeah. Tall, tall, skinny dude. I was like, get my little bony arms and stuff, and I'm not weak or anything. I'm fast. I'm strong, but I'm like, I'm skinny, dude.

LeRoy Gordon: I'm gonna talk. But you're not the rock. Rock. Yeah, exactly. The rock's huge. And he's definitely huge back at this time. Right, right. Um, so like, I can't do that, but, and I, I'll also look a little silly, um, remind me to tell you about the, the guys in high school that told me that this was a stupid dream, because I told them, you know, I, I wouldn't mention it here and there.

LeRoy Gordon: Like, oh, that'd be really cool to do Uhhuh, but at 18, I'm like making that decision between wrestling and jiujitsu. I'm like. This is silly. Like what do people think of this? Like me going from being like a pretty high level football player, like I didn't make it all the way to college, but I had some options.

LeRoy Gordon: Uhhuh, I chose not to take, you know, to now I'm, I'm play fighting in my underwear with other dudes and like, when we all know it's fake, so it's like, what, what is this to people, right? Yeah. People get acting, but they don't get pro wrestling. Pro wrestling people get pro wrestling. Um. I'm like, okay, I need to do something legit.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. And I, I know that I can take this athletic skill, which I have now built so much value upon. Like, this is where my value is. Right? Right. This is where I'm strong at my athletic skill. I put so much into this, I can take this and make this into something. I can make it into something real. So I'm like, let me go and start Juujitsu as a nice base to perhaps step into the cage one day, um, and do some MMA or something like give that a shot.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. And that still sounds kind of cool, but that just wasn't it. Yeah. That just wasn't it. It was not the competition. Um, though I enjoyed it. I love it. Still love it, but it was a desire to like, Hey, I see myself in those dudes in that ring. I should probably try that out. But I didn't at that time. Okay. I pushed it back.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and I did juujitsu, which just felt better. So fast forward to, um, I'm 23. Doing Juujitsu. 

Matt Kosterman: You're 23 at 

LeRoy Gordon: this point? Yes. Okay. Yeah. 23 at the time. My girlfriend is doing juujitsu. We're kicking ass together at tournaments, getting goals left and right. The team's good. Like I'm a leader on the team. We got a great community.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and I'm just miserable. Just I was gonna say 'cause you out, 

Matt Kosterman: you've probably got a little bit unprocessed trauma. 

LeRoy Gordon: Oh, well then we'll get there. Right, right, right. 

Matt Kosterman: Just setting the stage 

LeRoy Gordon: right. That thing in the heart, right. Uhhuh? Yeah. That unprocessed trauma. I'm just like, oh, what is this? Um. And I start to just kind of like pull back from Juujitsu a little bit.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and I'm, I'm now looking at the police thing. It hasn't come through yet, so I'm like, I'm working the training, I'm going juujitsu things just feel like, just not it. And I, I almost went to the Navy that I'm feeling so unfulfilled at that point. Just like, what if I just get out of here, rip myself out of this and, and try something even harder?

LeRoy Gordon: Like, I was starting to set myself up to go take the Navy SEAL test. Okay. Even, and I'm at a recruiting place. Wow. And I'm like, Hey, uh, I'm gonna take this test. I'm not that strong of a swimmer, by the way. Like, I, I can't do it at all, really? But they're, I, I tell 'em that. They go like, Hey, no, actually we need more black men in the Navy Seals.

LeRoy Gordon: And we got a guy going around. Have you heard of David Goggins? By the way, 

Matt Kosterman: I haven't, no. Yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah, yeah. He, he is a big personal development, like 

Matt Kosterman: personal development. 

LeRoy Gordon: People love him. Uh, he, he is a big badass. 

Matt Kosterman: Anyway, I, I photographed Admiral McCraven a couple years ago. Super 

LeRoy Gordon: dope. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. So David Goins is the, so he's a, is he, um, uh, the admiral, is he part of, uh, the Seals or Navy?

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. He was cool. He called the raid on, on Bin Laden. That's dope. He ran the SEALS camp for, for a while out. Seal Beach. And so he had some good stories that was at a corporate event. 

LeRoy Gordon: So big respect for those dudes. Uh, yeah, it's badass. I'm just like, yes, that's what I need. I need to go to the hardest thing possible.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. And like, and that's, that's where I'll have worth, it's really worth at this point, self worth. I don't self have word. I don't have the words for it yet, but it's a worth thing. Like I need to do the, the hardest thing possible and then people will be looking at me is essentially what it is. Yeah. Uh, so I, I, I somehow dodge the, the Navy thing.

LeRoy Gordon: Like, I take the test, I'm going to go take it again to get score a little bit higher so I can qualify for the heel, the seals thing. Uh, the recruiter falls off the face of the earth though. I, I think my mentor at the time might have been like, Hey man, not this kid. Like, or something along those lines.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Um, he was very against it. We never actually talked about that, but I do think something happened to that recruiter that made him go, uh. Just disappear on me. Okay. For whatever reason. Okay. There was no other possible happen. Did you? A favor happen. Did me a favor though. Yeah. I'm so grateful for that happening.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. And at that point, I'm just like, no one wants me, no one wants me. Even though jujitsu wants me so bad, um, no one wants me. And I, I think I went to a WWE show with, uh, my little cousins at the time, and there's this big wrestler from Chicago's named C Punk. He's still pretty big these days. And, um, I saw him wrestle and I'm like.

LeRoy Gordon: He's smaller than me, like, almost certainly like shorter than me. And he's like the biggest thing in the world right now. And I'm just like, bro, you're a trainer. Why can't you eat more lift weights? Um, and like, figure this thing out. The wrestling school. Find a wrestling school. There, there are some, whatever the reput is, find the wrestling school.

LeRoy Gordon: And then the last like kind of layer of resistance is like, what would people think? What would people think? What will people think of this? You know, like, I'm gonna look silly. You know, 

Matt Kosterman: I mean, how many, how many times does that go through everybody's head when they're 

LeRoy Gordon: trying, oh my God. 

Matt Kosterman: And they're trying to change Yes.

Matt Kosterman: Something about their life. What would people think? 

LeRoy Gordon: Absolutely. And like that for the first time. Like hard, like loud and like do it every single day. Like now I'm just like, I don't care what people think. Yeah. It's literally my life. And I feel the crushing weight of like a dream, a curiosity. This thing I think I can't do like, like on top of me.

LeRoy Gordon: Like, and I want it off. So I make the decision there. My last year of college I like gained maybe 25 pounds, like okay. Of of muscle and bulking up, ripped my ass off. And I started wrestling school like a few days after graduating, something like that. And I found one in the suburbs and I had to take the metro for it.

LeRoy Gordon: And it was really inconvenient, but it worked. But you did it. I did it, yeah. And it was the greatest pursuit of my life. I think. Um, if the pandemic didn't happen, it probably would've kept going. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, but 

Matt Kosterman: because yeah, I met you at Landmark. 

LeRoy Gordon: We met at Landmark. I was 

Matt Kosterman: probably like Landmark of 2015. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes.

Matt Kosterman: Fall of 2015. Yes. And you were I think just on the cusp of like. 

LeRoy Gordon: That was my first like, like, uh, I think I was always interested, there's always a part of me that was like, oh, we have psychology, like human development, like how do we get better? Like that kind of stuff. But Landmark was the first time that I did anything where, you know, I'm sitting with people, we're having these conversations and, and starting to like discuss like service level of the stuff that we've been through.

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: And, uh, 'cause you 

Matt Kosterman: had not done that. 

LeRoy Gordon: I had not had done any of 

that 

Matt Kosterman: to date. No therapy, 

LeRoy Gordon: nothing. 

Matt Kosterman: No. But your, but your wrestling career was coming up at that point? 

LeRoy Gordon: My wrestling career was coming up at that point. Yes. Yes. It was going pretty well at that point. Like, I was starting to get looked at by, uh, WE um, I was starting to get booked, like for Canadian tours and stuff.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. Which I would do a ton of. And um, like starting to get like a lot of great feedback that, you know, I could have a future, uh, doing it, which is really cool. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I remember seeing you coming out of one of the sessions in Landmark and your mind was just kind of blown by the whole thing.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, absolutely. It was. It was. Amazing. Yeah. It was amazing that, that people could be there for each other like that. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: I, I mean, I hadn't seen anything like it. People like go and they see people do things in groups and there's always the cult thing and 

Matt Kosterman: Right. Yeah. That's just, yeah. And I don't wanna put a plugin for that.

Matt Kosterman: 'cause it's not a fucking cult. People 

LeRoy Gordon: does not it 

Matt Kosterman: really, nobody has called me for 10 years. Yeah. For the, but it was the single, it was the, it was the keystone. It was the second keystone for me. The first was the Meadows in, in Arizona. I had done, uh, a week of two, two separate weeks of codependence breaking codependence.

Matt Kosterman: But I was still really stuck. And so, man, if you're stuck, like it's three days. Yes. It's, it's like a thousand bucks. It's the best deal going. 

LeRoy Gordon: It really is. 

Matt Kosterman: And they're not paying me to say this. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: And don't go to a Tuesday night. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: Because it's gonna be like a bunch of people who just tripped all weekend.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And they're gonna be like, you need to trip too. Just go and roll. 

LeRoy Gordon: Just go and roll. See, 

Matt Kosterman: register yourself. Things will change in your life. Yes. For the better. I guarantee it. So anyway, go back to your story. 

LeRoy Gordon: Sorry. No, absolutely no. I, I love, I love talking about Landmark. I talking, telling somebody about it the other day.

LeRoy Gordon: 'cause we were coming to do this. I'm like, oh yeah, mass, this dude. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. From 

LeRoy Gordon: Landmark, 

Matt Kosterman: right? 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. So I'm so grateful we met and I'm gonna do that later again too. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Landmark. It's, it's one of the things, and one of many things I've done at this point that just like, we're here for this time, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, and yeah.

LeRoy Gordon: Shake the snow globe bit reorient. And then it's like, okay, now things feel a little different. I feel like I can do a little more, a bit more capacity. Right. Uh, landmark did that for me. And like, at the same time, like things definitely opened up with wrestling. I think, you know, I it more energetic perhaps that I feel more confident.

LeRoy Gordon: Perhaps I was able to be myself more on stage, perhaps. And, uh, you know, good things are happening. I think around 27, 28, um, I had a child with WWE e uh, and they told me they, they were gonna sign me and then they changed their mind. Okay. And it's how the business goes. Uh, deeply heartbreaking and definitely sent me into like, um.

LeRoy Gordon: Oh, now what happens next? Like, yeah, 

Matt Kosterman: because this is my dream. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes, exactly. This is my dream. Um, and I'm like, yeah, fitness is always there. It's still always there. It's been there. Right. I appreciate you fitness. I'm gonna talk my shit sometimes. I appreciate you. Um, and he is like, oh no, I just had do this job.

LeRoy Gordon: And I, I start to now think about, you know, you know, next steps after wrestling. And wrestling was just a great adventure. Um, got to wrestle here all over the country. Canada. All over the country Australia once Oh wow. Uh, which was really cool and random, um, pandemic was coming and I was like, okay, I am going to leave my job here.

LeRoy Gordon: I was talking to an Orangetheory in New Zealand and I was like, Hey, can I come and work there? They were gonna do the visa and everything, and then the pandemic happens and everything like, just gets, you know, wiped off the table. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: And then it's like, okay, I, I, I don't know how likely it is that I'm gonna even.

LeRoy Gordon: Put my outfit on again after this thing. How long is this gonna be? Um, and at, at that time, for about a year or so, I'd started like personal development and just like starting to think about things, uh, more expanded a bit differently. Um, and even say like, this is before like everybody and their mom was a coach for something.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. Um, I'm like, okay. One of things my mentor, that same mentor who think saved me from the Navy, uh, told me back in those days was like, you, you have a pedigree that a lot of people don't have. Yeah. Like kind growing up as you grew up, uh, being able to get out that situation like early and, and create some prospects from yourselves at a fairly early age.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and then taking on juujitsu, taking on being a trainer, taking on like helping people with their lives in all these different ways. Um, you know, your story has power mm-hmm. As you are, you know, continuing to develop and, and create it. And I think about that often and this, by the time I'm Indian pro wrestling, I'm like, this story feels like it has a lot of power.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. Um, and that. You know, there's a lot of people that I see every day, people I talk to, even who, you know, have that thing they want to do and they haven't done that thing. Like, how, how can we help people do that thing? Um, so I started on that journey a little bit before the pandemic started. So it wasn't a huge like, shift to be like, okay, now we're really going all in on like, how does this even work?

LeRoy Gordon: You know? 

Um, 

Matt Kosterman: so on your own personal Yes. Your own personal development of your psyche, of your emotional body, like of, of anything. You've done a lot on the body. Body, absolutely. The physical body ly. Yes. And 

a 

LeRoy Gordon: lot of work. A ton of work on that, right? Too much work on that. My knees hurt so bad. Um, so many physical injuries.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, but you know, I think that would set me up and I'm looking at wrestling, like that took me some of my hardest physical training. But like that decision of like, like, like, or that, that process of like limiting belief. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Let's pick that apart. It's little pieces. My body, my experience, how do I learn?

LeRoy Gordon: What will people think? And just flipping all of it, flipping and, and that decision of like, what do people think? I, I cannot afford to care what people think. Um, like being a very powerful thing for me and to help people do that. Great. But that was also the, like, the only time that I really, um, I mean there's a lot of times I had to believe in myself, but like that was a pretty big one.

LeRoy Gordon: Like, what would people think? And we have to continue to like face that a lot of us will face that, you know, multiple times. Multiple times today. Yeah. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Because, 'cause ultimately it's really not what other people will think. Yes. It's all you. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes, a hundred percent. 

Matt Kosterman: It's all what will I think? 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes.

Matt Kosterman: Because there's no other. 

LeRoy Gordon: Mm. And like, how do you then like, take your frame of yourself and, and put it to where you want it. Yeah. And put it to where a place that's going to be supportive, helpful, um, allow you to do what you want to do with your life 

Matt Kosterman: and get, and getting your nervous system along for the ride.

Matt Kosterman: Yes, absolutely. Because cognitively. I still run up against this and I've been doing this shit for a long time. Mm-hmm. But I've run up against, you know, there's the fear. Yes. Whatever the story is. Yeah. And whatever the fear is and the fear's in the body and you gotta move through the fear. 

LeRoy Gordon: You gotta move through the fear and learn to do it.

LeRoy Gordon: Because a lot of us are just learn that fear bad, turn away, 

Matt Kosterman: turn away, 

LeRoy Gordon: go the other way. Yeah, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah, yeah. And doesn't, I mean, it can't work. I mean, you want to maybe not run and fight a bear or whatever, but that's not the whole purpose of, of fear for all of us. Especially in a different world where that is not, you know, the, the thing on on deck, we're probably not gonna have to defend ourselves from, uh, a big threat.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: And 

Matt Kosterman: isn't it one, like one of the bears you run the other bear you like make a lot of noise and I don't remember which. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: So I'm gonna get mauled by the fucking bear. But 

LeRoy Gordon: please don't get mauled by the bear. 

Matt Kosterman: But sometimes you just gotta fight. 

LeRoy Gordon: You just gotta fight. And, um, you know, learning to do that and like the idea of helping people do that, definitely exciting.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. But I think. At the time when I'm like listening to the folks I'm listening to, you know, the podcast, I was really big in the podcast and so big in the podcast. Yeah. Because I was on the road a lot. So that was the biggest thing I do. I rotate music, book podcasts and like, you know, do it. 

Matt Kosterman: And who were some of your podcast influencers?

LeRoy Gordon: Oh man, I, I, I can't think of a ton of them right now. Okay. But one dude was Rob Dial. Okay. Who was just this, just a random dude with a mindset, motivation podcast. Okay. And it was just like entry level, like kind of what we were talking about before we started recording. Like, like just those, those first ideas.

LeRoy Gordon: That, you know, maybe it's like some of the, the wisdom that we get coming up or some of it misses us or some of it doesn't land in a way that we can hear it 'cause we're kids and who cares. Sure. Um, and him, like, it is very like, like entry level personal development ideas and stuff that really, uh, you know, turned me on, fired me up.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, this other guy, his name is Lucas Rubiks, uh, and it was one of the first programs that I, you know, took that was like, Hey, here's how you, you know, develop an online thing or whatever. Okay. And he was like really great with the, the, you know, just being there for, for people, um, on this podcast specifically.

LeRoy Gordon: Just like, like it was like a, you know, bro, you know Yeah. Like a, a dad even. Okay. Um, with just like some really great knowledge and, and warmth and, you know, believe in yourself, uh, sort of stuff. So basic stuff back then. But I was eating it up. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Well, yeah. And I remember coming outta COVID, like, then you, like all of a sudden I saw your Facebook change to like reiki.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: And 

Matt Kosterman: all this sudden I'm like, whoa. Wait, hold on. That's a pro wrestler. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: I don't even know about the police 

LeRoy Gordon: thing at that point. So Yeah. It went so left, right? 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was 

great. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, yeah, I, I love it because it's just like, hey, it's pro wrestler, but it is like we're athletes but we're also like artists.

LeRoy Gordon: Like we're also creatives in a lot of ways. Um, like a lot of what I loved about pro wrestling, the physical stuff's so cool. I want people to see me do cool stuff. So cool. But what even is, what's even more satisfying, it was saying, Hey, we want to tell this story. We want to try to garner this reaction.

LeRoy Gordon: And let's see, uh, if they're behind the good guy, who we want them to be behind. Okay. Whether I'm the good guy, whether I'm the bad guy and I really like playing the bad guy. 'cause it's really fun to. You know, I, I, I find myself as an uplifter the bad guy. Like, while he looks like he's beating up the, the good guy, right.

LeRoy Gordon: He is really an uplifter and trying to make the good guy look as cool as, okay. Um, relatable as believing this dude as possible in the show because he needs it right now. And that's the show, you know? Okay. Um, I feel like that is echoing of real life, right? Right. So to make the, that move I think was kind of natural, but also like one that makes people like, huh.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah. Lemme look at this. Right? And I've worked with men who are like, because you're a pro wrestler, it made me trust that, um, you know, that, you know, whatever this, this healing thing is, maybe it's a little bit less scary because that's a pretty, you know, manly thing to do, which is a problematic, but like, you know, we take it at the time 

Matt Kosterman: that's, 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah.

LeRoy Gordon: Well, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: You gotta use, you meet 'em where they're at, meet them where they're at. Exactly. Meet 'em where they're at. Meet them where they're at. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, so, you know, pro wrestling is, you know, at this point, donezo, I wrestled one more time in 2021. Um, went to Minnesota for, with this guy who's really good and I think he should be signed soon.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Um. And my body was jacked up because it had been a minute Uhhuh and I trained for maybe two, three months, uh, before doing it. But it was jacked up. And when you're doing it like every weekend, it's just completely different than taking a long break and then doing it. And I'm just like, damn, dude.

LeRoy Gordon: Like I don't know if I have it right in me to like, or if it's worth the investment, like to get back into this as hard. I know. I don't wanna be hidden the road as much as I used to. Yeah. And it felt like almost starting over, you know, about six, seven years, uh, uh, in when I'm hitting a stride and then all the momentum fell flat and I'm not like a famous wrestler at this point.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. So it's like okay. 

Matt Kosterman: It wasn't a comeback to 

LeRoy Gordon: be had. Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't a real comeback to be had. Right. You know, locally. Like people love it and it'd be fun. Right. Um, and there's days where I still think about it still. 

Matt Kosterman: Sure, sure. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: But it's also like you were being guided. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes, exactly.

LeRoy Gordon: Guided to my other path and. Uh, do y'all ever talk astrology on this show? 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah, yeah. We talk about everything, 

Matt Kosterman: sex, drugs, rock and roll, astrology. 

LeRoy Gordon: Love it. 

Matt Kosterman: I gotta get a human design person on here soon. Yeah. Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: I was, I was like, so, right. I'm starting to person development and it like started to lead me to like more esoteric like practices, indigenous practices.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and astrology is always something I was just like, oh, that's kind of cool, but never like, you know, but that's a girl thing, right? I'm unpacking all that shit for myself too. Right, right. Um, and I started to get into it at the time and I learned about, uh, south node, north node or your south node being the life that you were supposed to live, your north node being, um, or the, the south node being like me, like a past life like mission.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Like last life Mission North node being the path that you're on in this life. Leo South node was, was my thing. Leo was all about being on stage, being the one to do it, you know? Okay. Like, look at me. That was your south. That was my south node. My north node is, um, Aquarius, which is more about community and uplifting others to do that.

LeRoy Gordon: And I didn't know this at the time, but I was starting, you know, I was along that path. 

Matt Kosterman: And, and are you an Aquarius in the Arial astrology? Are you a solid Aquarius or, 

LeRoy Gordon: so that's just, I mean, that's just north node, so my like, uh, my, my sun sign then. Oh, 

Matt Kosterman: sunset. 

LeRoy Gordon: So, right, right. Is Virgo. 

Matt Kosterman: Virgo, 

LeRoy Gordon: okay. Um, so, but I didn't even know, I was like, what is all this?

LeRoy Gordon: I just know the, the first thing you know, which is the sun sign. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah. Which, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: but I didn't know. I was like starting to travel this path. So, uh, and 

Matt Kosterman: when was your, so what, how old were you at this point? Like 

LeRoy Gordon: in, so at this point in 21, I'm probably about. 30, 31. So towards the end of wrestling. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah.

Matt Kosterman: And so you had gone through your uh, yes. Saturn return, 

LeRoy Gordon: I had gone through my Saturn, Saturn 

Matt Kosterman: return. That was, that was the explosion. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. That was the explosion 

Matt Kosterman: of the dying of the Yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: a hundred percent. Yeah. It was the explosion, the dying of an old identity, um, or the very least, you know, a dying of it as I knew it, and evolving and taking into a different thing.

LeRoy Gordon: So, 

Matt Kosterman: because isn't that like 27, 28, something like that when you're 27? Yep. 

LeRoy Gordon: 28, 29 ish. 29, yeah. Yeah, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, so all these are, so there's a lot of overlap happening here, but, you know, wrestling stopped. I, I did my last match in 2021. In 2020 I started my being in my first men's group. And that would be where like the, the biggest like, kind of like phase of growth took place because now I'm like, at this point I'm like, I don't know how I'm helping people.

LeRoy Gordon: I read a book called, um, no More Mr. Nice Guy. Okay. And it was about, um, how do I describe it? Essentially like the kind of archetype of men who. Are maybe on the quieter end or, you know, have lost from not being empowered, perhaps. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Not, not leading the, the life of the divine masculine. Yes, 

LeRoy Gordon: exactly. Not leading the life.

LeRoy Gordon: The divine masculine 

being 

Matt Kosterman: a little beaten down and 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. Yeah. And I would say, like, if we thought about it, um, if you ever read the. Um, warrior, lover, warrior, king, magician. However, Uhhuh. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. The young, all the youngian archetype stuff, 

LeRoy Gordon: right? Exactly. Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: Way of the superior man, David d, a 

LeRoy Gordon: hundred percent.

LeRoy Gordon: Yep. Um, right. So the idea of, you know, like in the middle we will call that the divine masculine. Right? Right. If you're going too, if powerful, now we're moving into more toxic masculine Yeah. Um, more domination, like sort of thought instead of like, you know, love empathy being together. Right. But on the other end of the spectrum, we're thinking more of, uh, they used the word impotent, like just, just not empowered.

Matt Kosterman: He henpecked 

LeRoy Gordon: henpecked to world walks over them. Right. So I'm reading this book 'cause I'm just kind of like, I'm interested in that as an archetype, right? Um, guys who might be on the, the nerdier side of things perhaps. And, you know, they, they may struggle in relationships, they may struggle just getting through the day, walking down the street, you know.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and I was interested in that. And at the end of that book, essentially, he says, join a men's group. And I was like, huh? That sounds like an idea. And I was like, well, why would I be joining a men's group? And I was like, well, it sounds like there's an additional accountability there. Mm-hmm. Um, it sounds like I, you know, it's a good opportunity to repair my relationships with men who at this point, you know, the best relationships I had with men, my football team in high school, which, you know, my, you know, core best friends are still from that.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and then my pro wrestling tag team partner when I was doing two on two. Okay. We were in the car forever together. Like we were essentially doing our business of wrestling together. Um, and a few of the other wrestling guys, but no, really deep. And 

Matt Kosterman: you 

LeRoy Gordon: had a mentor, 

Matt Kosterman: you said, like, 

LeRoy Gordon: and I had a mentor Yes, yes.

LeRoy Gordon: Uh, in my early twenties, uh, from the G two team. Okay. Who was like, really, you know, it's always been around my sports though, you know. Yeah. That's how men, you know, tend to relate. We tend to relate. Mm-hmm. Um, and good relationships, soft loving relationships, I say with many of these, but I'm just like. Yeah.

LeRoy Gordon: But he lives there. He lives there. He lives there. Mm-hmm. Like, I need some, some friends. So he joined an online men's group that didn't really help with that. When you got the community. Yeah. It was what was available at the time. Sure. Um, and, um, joined that was in it as a participant for about a year before I took like a, a summit leadership role and was there for maybe six months before it was my group to lead.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Uh, full time. And that, uh, I, I can't even, I, I don't even know. Landmark started this, by the way, repairing with my, my mom and dad in terms of, there was a, a challenge in one of the programs to have some conversation with 'em. Right, right, right. Those are very baseline conversations, you know, cried with my mom.

LeRoy Gordon: It didn't really change that much. And then my dad talked about it, but it was like, uh, we're so disconnected. Like anyway, like, doesn't matter. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. Um, but in men's group, right? Revisit these concepts going deeper, these concepts, I'm more mature and I'm willing to like really stand like on business about things and completely transform my relationship with both of them.

LeRoy Gordon: Both. And that's men's group and that is also. I was sitting with you and, um, our session with MDMA as well. Yeah, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. 'cause that was like 2021. I think that 

LeRoy Gordon: that was 2021. Yeah. Because it was shortly 

Matt Kosterman: after 21, after we moved into this space. Yes. And so yeah, we, we did, we we did that 

LeRoy Gordon: late 2021, I think, around my birthday that year.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, it was, it was amazing. Right. And now, right, so landmarks happened. I'm in men's group. We're, we're making progress, um, you know, reconnect with you and now get into the medicine work. Right. Um, and I, I believe maybe had mushrooms once before that, maybe twice before that, um, you know, get into the medicine, work with you, and then ayahuasca a couple times after that.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I mean, that session with you, man, you talked 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, I still had the recording. I'm so afraid to listen to it. But a part of me really wants to listen to it. I'm gonna do it one day. 

Matt Kosterman: You haven't listened to it yet. Yes. Oh, no. Yeah, you talk, you talked and talked and talk. I'm like, I just turned on the thing.

Matt Kosterman: Like, I can't write all this stuff down, but this is great. Just needed to get it out. 

LeRoy Gordon: I really, yeah. And it was, it was amazing. Right. And I think that, you know. I think that is kind of, you know, a, a nice little timeline. Uh, men's group medicine work. And now we're kind of here where I am now, yoga instructor and, and I'm talking about like my life path, like purpose stuff, uh, right.

LeRoy Gordon: Yoga instructor and the men's circles leading my own and, uh, trying to grow that and serve people. 

Matt Kosterman: But the ca the catalyst, lemme just go back to the medicine work for a minute. 'cause the, I think, I mean, it, it was, it was in 

LeRoy Gordon: many ways I would say the catalyst then. '

Matt Kosterman: cause it opened the heart. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. Right. Big time.

LeRoy Gordon: Opened the heart. Big time. Opened the heart. Opened my eyes. Yeah. Opened my like mouth, like in ways my mouth's always open, but like, found language for things, um, that I might not have had before. And I, I'd say that, you know, all through this, right? I'm, I am. From starting to date at, you know, middle school or whatever, having trouble in relationships, um, in terms of, you know, being in them for a while and then it not being enough at some point, or being in them for a while.

LeRoy Gordon: And my eyes just keep wandering. Yeah. Uh, being in for a while and, you know, honestly, fuck honesty. Like, I, I have this desire to do whatever, you know, and, you know, if they don't find out about it, fine, they'll be okay. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and just, you know, that would be the pattern of my life for basically through my, uh, twenties and that being really difficult because I also like want a big, like expansive love.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. With, you know, at that time I was thinking one woman. Sure. That it was one woman. And even now I think it's one woman, but I've had to open up to, to like, maybe that's not the case for me. Mm-hmm. Right. You know, a big piece of these last few years have been, uh, experimenting with polyamory. Yeah. And open relating.

LeRoy Gordon: And, uh, I even say that was a, a, a catalyst for something as well because it's like, I, I guess I'll take it back to the, the, to the trauma aspect. Um, never having a really affectionate relationship with my mother. You know, this person who I am being told, uh, is supposed to love me like unconditionally, but is doing things that hurt me, 

Matt Kosterman: right.

LeRoy Gordon: Like all the time. And 

Matt Kosterman: physically, emotionally, 

LeRoy Gordon: physically, emotionally. Right. Um. Like not there when I, I just needed my mom a lot of the times. Mm-hmm. You know, and a lot of times there's just a hug, you know, just a kiss. Just the opportunity to be close to her, um, that she wasn't really able to do. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and a lot of the work has helped me get to forgiveness and understanding about that.

LeRoy Gordon: I love the fuck outta my mom. Mm-hmm. Like more than I ever have, um, these days. And I have high hopes for our relationship. But the, the results of how childhood was, was, you know, I didn't know how to be in a relationship. I didn't know how to love someone. I had some ideas, you know, some ideas what care was.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, I could do grand gestures 'cause we've seen that on tv. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Right, right. The love, love bombing. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, 

Matt Kosterman: but you've cha you've changed how your mother shows up. For you because you changed you. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: Your mother didn't. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. So your 

Matt Kosterman: mother hasn't done any work? 

LeRoy Gordon: No, my mother hasn't. And but I, I will give my mother like so much credit and I, you know, a lot of my friends who are having similar conversations, um, like this with like don't have parents who can hear it and that are willing to, um, they're willing to sit with it.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. Willing to check in on it. I think my mom, just like, I, I'm, I'm lucky, I was not lucky for how she used to be, but I feel lucky now that uh, in the times where like, I need her now to sit down and listen right after our, our MDMA session, maybe three weeks later. Mm-hmm. I went with her to talk to her for like three hours.

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

LeRoy Gordon: And she let, let me know everything about her life. And I'm like, holy shit. Compared to you, I am a little lucky with how it went in childhood. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that's, you know, like in a way, I think it's a, of me experiencing, right. The, the part of me that changed was. This lady's never gonna know her grandchildren.

LeRoy Gordon: Like if it happens Right. Uhhuh to like, oh, actually we can do something with this. Yeah. You know? That's beautiful. Yeah. You know, and that's the men's group and that's the opening up to you and talking about it. And I don't remember the stuff you said to me there, but you, you were spitting fire too, dude.

LeRoy Gordon: Just know. Right. Just know, like, just such a supportive space. If you haven't done it with Matt, please do it with Matt. Right. Um, but to be able to like, have compassion for her and my, for myself at the same time, and to sit in, that was everything. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think in that, that, that, that healing, I, I hit my relationship with women in general.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, teaching me to be more honest in general. 

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

LeRoy Gordon: Teaching me to let go of fear of being honest also is a big, big, big fear. 

Matt Kosterman: What will they think 

LeRoy Gordon: exactly? 'cause what will they think? Well, they think, if I'm honest Exactly. They'll think I'm a monster. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: You know, that's the biggest thing. They'll think I'm a monster.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. And I'm just like, they're gonna think I'm a monster. The truth comes out like poorly anyway. Right. I lead with my, my struggles and relationships on like first dates. Right. Uhhuh. Right. I, I, I say, Hey, just so you know, this has happened. If we get past the second date, I haven't told it, told you that yet.

LeRoy Gordon: This is not gonna work out. But, you know, I, I like to lead with it now. So, so they can know like, where's Ben? And I can set an expectation for myself that we're not hiding anything. Um, you know, or we're not gonna hide. The biggest, the biggest thing, the biggest challenge. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: and how, how, how's the ethical non-monogamy been?

Matt Kosterman: How's the polyamory showed up? 

LeRoy Gordon: So I'm with one woman now, um, and. 'cause it's challenging. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: It's challenging. You know, I, as someone who did not feel like it got affection and attention, jealousy can be very difficult, you know? Um, but overall amazing. Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Beautiful. Some, some really great relationships that I've had, uh, in the time that I tried it out.

LeRoy Gordon: You know, I had one stent, um, uh, I think maybe 22, a little bit after, you know, I saw you last. And, you know, it was in a few relationships and just letting it all hang out. Like the most honest I've ever been. And I'm just like, it was almost like a cleanse. I'm just like, we are getting all the dishonesty out, bro.

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. Because this is the only way it works. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's what I've read or, or heard of anyway. And I'm now at a point where like the stakes are high for me to just be the man I want to be, um, in a relationship. And, uh, and overall and, and knowing that there's congruence through, through all of that.

LeRoy Gordon: You know, I cannot be dishonest in a relationship and be fully like honest, like over here in this other area of life, like with myself or like, but be, but be in full integrity. I'd rather say like, be in full integrity, be fully whole. Right. And I cannot be like not fully whole in this relationship knowing what I'm bringing to it consciously.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, including honestly, uh, including like intention, um, and, and have honesty and intention and integrity. While I'm trying to develop, you know, my business in other areas, you know? Yeah. In other 

Matt Kosterman: areas of your life. Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, 

Matt Kosterman: it's everywhere or it's nowhere. 

LeRoy Gordon: It's everywhere. Or it's nowhere. Yeah. And I truly came to believe that.

LeRoy Gordon: I mean, even like, I, I, I was still like tail end pro wrestling at that time. I'm just like, well, of course. Like how, how committed am I really? Mm-hmm. You know, and can I be a little bit more committed? Mm-hmm. You know? Um, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. Yeah. The jealousy thing's interesting. I've, I've experimented with a couple open relationships.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And, uh, it, it's interesting to, to, to sit in it. 

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Because it's like you want to push it away. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: Absolutely. Wanna push it away. Wanna even push that person away. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: And then I like, but she's letting me do this too. Right. And I feel great when I'm doing that. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: and ultimately it's just an emotion 

LeRoy Gordon: and ultimately it's just an emotion.

LeRoy Gordon: It doesn't have to be this. Um, and what's always helped me is just like the love is there. 

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

LeRoy Gordon: The love is there and there's not, not any less. There's another person 

Matt Kosterman: present. It definitely takes a lot of communication though. 

LeRoy Gordon: It takes a ton of communication, ton of it, it's a lot of communication.

LeRoy Gordon: There's times where I'm like knocking out the park and there's times where you get really like, tiring. Yeah. And there's times where it's like, oh, my schedule. Yeah, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah, yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Uh, oh, my, my time for myself or my time for this project. So I'm just like, okay, right. Maybe we take the, the foot off the gas a little bit and like, so I stopped then, um, saw one woman for a long time and then we broke up.

LeRoy Gordon: And I, I went back to it 'cause I'm just, and, and ultimately because I'm like, I, I don't know that I'm done with this. Mm-hmm. I don't know if I'm, I've done explored this story enough for me to say I, you know, can, can be fully in this relationship with you, you know, can be a safe person for you fully. Right.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, without fully exploring this piece of myself and in I wanna feel whole, you know, so that, that's gotta be explored. And even now I'm in a spot where, you know, that's kind of on the table and, you know, the, the woman I'm seeing, like she is. Clued in, you know, clued in that, you know, this is a possibility.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. Um, that, you know, the polyamory may need to be how I relate. Um, but I also think that I might be one who can potentially do monogamy, could potentially do polyamory and just allow myself to learn about it and be in a communication with my partner about it. And that I, I will say the, the, the, probably the biggest benefit of it, other than like, okay, I don't feel like the shackles of this, like, you know, heteronormative, like, you know, or maybe like more like mono normativity.

LeRoy Gordon: Like, don't feel the shackles of that. Like those rules don't have to be how I do it. How we do it. Yeah. Our relationship. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: it's whatever agreements you 

LeRoy Gordon: make, it's whatever agreements you make. Exactly. Right. So that's been a big benefit, but the communication, having to be on point like that has been something that I think is probably the biggest benefit for me.

LeRoy Gordon: Uhhuh, it's like learning, learning to communicate my feelings, learning to communicate. Um, more frequently. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: Knowing when, oh, we haven't had to check in, in a while, Uhhuh, and like, in feeling that like, build up, it's like, oh man, this next one might be a doozy. That's why I'm supposed to do it more, more frequently.

LeRoy Gordon: You, you know, more frequently. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it's, it's taught me to be a better partner in monogamous relationships. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, I think though, I, I think, uh, I pulled it back to the core wound 'cause I think it's like runs through pro wrestling as well. Right. And the core wound, um, again, not being looked at, not being seen.

LeRoy Gordon: Now you're gonna see me on this stage. Now you're gonna see me, you know, do this cool move. Now you're gonna see me. And, and through that, you know, I will be loved. Um, so I had to unpack that. In regards to wrestling? In regards to my relationship with my family in regards to the relationships, uh, with anyone?

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. Really mostly the romantic relationships. You know, a woman could be showing up fully beautifully. I've, I've, I've had almost exclusively like great, like partners who showed up for me, who loved me, who wanted to continue to be with me until I was behaving in a way that was like not safe for them or, or signaling to them, oh no, he does not want to be with me.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Or he is not trustworthy. Right. Um, like love to love and shadow to like all my partners, like almost no one that I've been with has like, done me wrong, done me dirty, any of that. Uh, Uhhuh. Um, just really lucky in that way. Um, and I think guys like we, we can reflect on, um, you know, when it's our stuff and when, you know, maybe it's their stuff more, um.

LeRoy Gordon: Is, it's just something. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: First rule is like, 

LeRoy Gordon: own it. Own it. Oh, own it. Maybe it's not yours, but if you start out owning it. 

Matt Kosterman: Exactly. Exactly. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. It is one of my favorite rules, favorite rules in relationship. Act like it is your problem. Right. You know? Right. And, and it is, as long as y'all in a relationship kind of is kind of is, you know, and who's problem it is more details.

LeRoy Gordon: If we're both owning the problem, we, we can come to, you know, come to something. Yeah. Whether that's something that's gonna keep us together better, or let us decide, hey, maybe this isn't, you know, the thing for us. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: I was having a conversation with a woman the other day who was complaining that her, you know, her boyfriend, you know, she would've rather had him suggest to doing this thing.

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: And that would've been, and I, I'm like, well, but did you tell him? 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: We're not mind readers. No. And so, you know, state your needs. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes. It's an easy trip to fall into. Yeah. Right. You know, and, and I think it's kind of like a. It's kind of like a Disney fairytale, 

Matt Kosterman: right? It's, I'm a cute thing. Want It's that imprinting.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. It's that Im, 

Matt Kosterman: it's that, that princess, the the sleeping beauty, snow white, the, the, the man that's gonna show up on the horse. Mm-hmm. 

LeRoy Gordon: And I think it's a cute thing to want, it makes sense that you want it, but you just tell me. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: You get it 

Matt Kosterman: and maybe you can 

LeRoy Gordon: still get it. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. And, and maybe you can act it out in A-B-D-S-M scene.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. Just like that. Yeah. That 

Matt Kosterman: sounds fun. Right. And you can be the savior, but in day to day it's like communicate. 

LeRoy Gordon: Absolutely. I think even in the, the, but seeing the, the BDSM uh, scene aspect of it, right. There's communication for what everybody wants. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, and you kind of talking about how you get there, it doesn't make it any less sexy.

LeRoy Gordon: I think consent, it's gonna be, it's consent just as it's consent. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be just as sexy. Um. Because you're getting the thing that you want, right. With this person that you trust. I think if you can sit and talk with it and be okay with it, that's probably gonna make it even sexier. 

Matt Kosterman: Well, and, and, and very healing.

LeRoy Gordon: And very healing. 

Matt Kosterman: There's a lot. 'cause you can state what you want and 

LeRoy Gordon: get what you want. Ah, absolutely. Right. And get it safely. 

Matt Kosterman: And get it safely 

LeRoy Gordon: and, and, and you learn to know what's safe for you and can like 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: You know, speak, speak to all that. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. Consent and boundaries are huge and 

LeRoy Gordon: big time.

LeRoy Gordon: Big time. I think like, so all that's to say, right. I was, um, you know, the, the story is, look at me. Right. I wasn't being looked enough. Right. And in relationships, getting to the point where I was just like. You know, I am like feeling like this, this hole that is just not being fully filled up with all the affection I need, or that I always needed to be a little bit more stimulated than where I was at the time.

LeRoy Gordon: And I guess that brings me to another piece of a big thing that I've dealt with and am now finally kinda getting some assistance on and being neurodivergent. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: And, um, I think I started experiencing symptoms of a DHD three to four years ago. Okay. And even then, not really like noticing or knowing what it is and just thinking like, oh, I guess I'm just like becoming a bit more forgetful.

LeRoy Gordon: Or I guess I did have that concussion, like, is this that, should I go to the doctor? Okay. Like, and. Just all the things, time blindness, um, losing a little bit of my, like sharpness accuracy with my words because I am speaking so fast and it used to be something I could do, but now it's a little bit jumbled up just because my brain's working a little bit differently and all these things I'm not quite like understanding as it's happening.

LeRoy Gordon: And just with reading social media and stuff, I'm like, oh, I think this sounds like Neurodivergence. And a piece of that is just this, this need to stimulate this need for life to be more than it is, more than it is on the day to day. Uh, I wish I knew that a long time ago because Yeah. Yeah. You know, with some assistance with that, maybe there's, there, you know, there's some less, less harm done.

Matt Kosterman: Right. What, do you know your, have you studied the Enneagram at all? 

LeRoy Gordon: I have not studied the Enneagram. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. I'd just be curious what number you are. 'cause I'm, I'm a three and a three. The three's core deceit, if you will, is, is like, if others, if I'm not recognized, I don't exist. Mm-hmm. So we did a deep dive on the Enneagram and the course that I was in, and, and we spent days in Mexico 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah.

Matt Kosterman: With two teachers of it and embodying it and getting in the group where you thought you were that thing. And then, and then doing medicine work. And then I had to show up and be like, oh, like nobody would look at me for like an hour. Oh, nobody's eyes outta 60 people would look at me. 

LeRoy Gordon: And this place where you're kind of, you know, kind of supposed to connect.

Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Right. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. But I was doing it. I was doing it. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: I was making them not look at me. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: But I couldn't not do it. 

LeRoy Gordon: Mm. 

Matt Kosterman: I mean, we were on drugs. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course, of course, of course. 

Matt Kosterman: So anyway, I just, 

LeRoy Gordon: no, that sounds a big experience. The 

Matt Kosterman: Enneagram is a, it's, it's pretty fascinating 

LeRoy Gordon: and I feel that, you know, I, doing all the work and getting into the conclusions I have through all the, all the methods, you know, I think the medicine showed me that, and in ways as well.

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

LeRoy Gordon: It was like I never would've thought that if no one's looking at me. Or if all or all was it, if all eyes aren't looking at me, no one's looking at me. 

Matt Kosterman: It was like no. If I wasn't being recognized. If 

LeRoy Gordon: I was 

Matt Kosterman: not being recognized. Yeah. And I sat with like, okay, well I'm still here. I didn't cease to exist.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, 

Matt Kosterman: right. So, okay. Is that ego death? I don't know. 

LeRoy Gordon: Is 

Matt Kosterman: this fine? Is this okay? It was all right. You know, but nobody would catch my eye. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah, that's that, that, that's a lie. It feels scary. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: It feels like disconnecting, obviously, but like isolating, you 

Matt Kosterman: know? But, but, but the experience then was very healing.

Matt Kosterman: 'cause I used to walk. I used to walk on the, you know, I lived in the suburbs for 20 years out, out in River Forest and I, you know, I knew everybody and I'd people are a little friendlier. They, you know, say hi to you when you walk down the street and, you know, a couple first couple years in the city I'd be like, you know, hi, hi.

Matt Kosterman: Like, yeah. Nobody gives a shit. It's a damn city. 

LeRoy Gordon: The city 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: So bad. I 

Matt Kosterman: wish 

LeRoy Gordon: people would look at each other. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I get it. You know, women, they don't wanna look at you. Mm-hmm. Because if they give an inch, some asshole takes a mile. 

LeRoy Gordon: Hundred 

Matt Kosterman: percent. But it was healing for that 'cause now I just, I just do my thing.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. You just do your thing, thing. You can just do that. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: It's, it's crazy. 'cause we can just do that. We can just do our thing. That's a huge lesson, right? It's like, I feel like if I were to step into wrestling again today, that I, it like knowing that I, I fully. Embrace people looking at me and it's really cool.

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. I enjoy it, but I don't need that. You don't need it to exist. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: You know, I think that opens up something creatively. You know, one of the biggest things I feel like held me back. I feel that there is like having a more defined, like, like character that that really catches people's eyes and attention.

LeRoy Gordon: I feel like that've made a difference for me and I feel like it's so capable of doing that now, and I'm just like, wow, is that being unblocked? Or at the very least, like, I could present myself in this way. 

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

LeRoy Gordon: And that's completely okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like back then I've been like, complete, I can present myself in this way and maybe that's okay, but maybe that's not what people expect from me and I need to do what people expect from me.

LeRoy Gordon: 'cause that is what's working. I 

Matt Kosterman: know. I just gotta, I mean, 

LeRoy Gordon: and, but maybe it's like, maybe it's your, your 

Matt Kosterman: work with other humans to inhabit some character, like with kids or something. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It just came to me like, maybe you can be this, this character that bridges. Thing, you know, this wrestling character, but you can bring people into the consciousness to it.

Matt Kosterman: Hell 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah. Hell yeah. I, I tell you some of the stuff I do. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Tell me. So 

LeRoy Gordon: as I, I think a big piece has been 

Matt Kosterman: because when was the reiki that was around during 

LeRoy Gordon: the 

Matt Kosterman: reiki 

LeRoy Gordon: was probably around 21 also. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: So I get into reiki, uh, love it. Use it on the daily, which is energy healing for those energy healing.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, it's really, it feels like it's helped me improve my intuition and just become more sensitive in general. Even I'll like down to the heart sensitive. Okay. You know, like I feel things more deeply, which is, uh, I think that's the healing as well. Mm-hmm. So the reiki tarot around the same time, which I really, really enjoy, appreciate.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, it helps me, uh, understand myself in ways that I need to understand myself in, in those given times. Um, and, you know, men's group was happening leading the men's group, eventually, uh, chose to leave the organization I was with just due to some like, differences on, you know, ideas around growth Yeah. For all people.

LeRoy Gordon: And, uh, now leading my own men's group. Meet monthly, met monthly last year. I'm hoping to keep that up this year and hopefully eventually get to a Weekly's men's group. 'cause I really feel like that's what the sauce is. Yeah. Um, and you know, a big piece of, of the last couple years though has been me taking on.

LeRoy Gordon: Um, competitive Pokemon Nintendo Switch playing. 

Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. 

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Which is, yeah. So I will go to tournaments, uh, and 2, 2 3 day tournaments and play the games and enjoy it with people will enjoy it. And that feels like a bit of a character. I wore my old wrestling, uh, best, the best. Uh, I, I've been doing a little podcast myself called Pokemon's Health, where I talk to, you know, guys in the community about their man stuff.

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. And like, let them have a, an opportunity to tell their story. And that has been, uh, really fulfilling. Sweet. And just like, you know, entry level, like guys who maybe never had these sort of conversations before, getting to just talk about their experience as a man. Um. And like that, that piece. So I did some streaming, I did the podcast and I'm hoping to bring it all back.

LeRoy Gordon: That piece. I get to just be, I get to be Roy Roy, flash Gordon again, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit different than Leroy Gordon. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, you know, get to use my voice a little bit differently, being, uh, you know, doing Orange Theory, which is this big group fitness thing. I'm on a microphone. The lights are orange.

LeRoy Gordon: It's a little crazy in there. Intense. Yeah. I get to, I, I, I, I can choose to play a little character there. Again, my passion for that is a little bit different than it used to be, but I get a little bit of, of opportunity to have a voice there. Um, and then yoga is like, like my Zen me and Uhhuh and, and, and I'm exploring what that is.

LeRoy Gordon: Right? Yeah. And all this to say, I feel like, you know, the work has allowed me to. Open up and you know, at another deeper level of like, who cares what they think? Right. 

Matt Kosterman: Well, well you get to wear all these masks. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Without any shame. 

LeRoy Gordon: Exactly. Wearing masks without shame. 

Matt Kosterman: Because we are all these things. 

LeRoy Gordon: We are all these things.

LeRoy Gordon: Absolutely. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I mean like I can be a photographer who likes to trip and has a podcast about consciousness and you know, photographs, famous people. Like, it's okay, 

LeRoy Gordon: you do all the things and it is okay. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: And it's like, is it you? Is that the you you want to be and. You want to add something to it, you go ahead and get to do that, you know?

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: For me, that's been, uh, dangly earrings that's been painting my nails. That's been different jewelry. I'm moving into more of a goth aesthetic, you know, Uhhuh, we're gonna see how that like fits, try that on. And, you know, I feel like the mask are trying to converge into just, you know, their sides of an identity are like an identity who's walking down the street.

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: You know? Um, that feels like, you know, it's one of the bigger goals of this year. I wanna get all black, maybe put on some, some makeup uhhuh and just like, you know, and be that and be that and Yeah. Yeah. And be like an example for guys also who I really feel like, you know, a big piece of the men's work is I have to be who patriarchy tells me I have to be.

LeRoy Gordon: And I hate that for us. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Well that shit and that shit's all going away. 

LeRoy Gordon: It's all going away. It's all 

Matt Kosterman: going 

LeRoy Gordon: away. Yes. Let's, let's, 

Matt Kosterman: I mean, you look at human design, you look at 2027. Cross as sleeping Phoenix is coming in, 

LeRoy Gordon: let's go. 

Matt Kosterman: All that patriarchy, all that sacrificing the one for the good of the many.

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Shit's out. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes, please. Let's out. Let it be out. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: And I think it gets out by us saying, you know, who are we on an individual level and how, how do you want to relate to your community and the collective? And can we do that in a way that just embodies love? Mm-hmm. You know, love and empathy for their experience and perhaps, you know, perhaps you're doing a little something to give 'em a little boost on their experience.

LeRoy Gordon: That's the kind of impact that I wanna have. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Um, it's beautiful. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. It's been, 

Matt Kosterman: I mean, as long as you're, you, it's like somewhere along the way we lost this idea that you can do whatever you want to do, be whatever you want to be, as long as you're not as, as long as you're not hurting another in some way.

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Emotionally, psychically, physically. 

LeRoy Gordon: Absolutely. 

Matt Kosterman: We can, we can all do that. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: And that's boundaries and consent. At the end of the day, 

LeRoy Gordon: it is boundaries, consent, and. 

Matt Kosterman: Have you done anything? Have you read any, uh, it's Betty White, the, the Wheel of Consent. Have you ever I 

LeRoy Gordon: have not. 

Matt Kosterman: Oh, it's something to check out.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. The Wheel of consent's super powerful. We've d done the work at Ista, literally draw out the big wheel pa use tape to tape out a big wheel and slice it into four pies. Yeah. And so the corners are, are allowing and taking mm-hmm. And giving and receiving. Mm. And so it's all about what are you getting out of it?

Matt Kosterman: What are you giving up? Where are you in the wheel? And, and, and, and we, in Ista you embody it. So you go like, okay, where do you feel like you stand? So most of the guys go stand in, you know, in taking. Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

Matt Kosterman: And the women tend to flock, you know, to, to allowing. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: And then you go, okay, well, what happens if you're in encounter with a woman and she decides that she didn't consent to whatever's going on, but she let it happen, but now she becomes a victim.

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Well, well, that automatically kicks you out into the perpetrator. 

LeRoy Gordon: Hmm. Is that outside the circle? 

Matt Kosterman: Outside the circle? Mm-hmm. You're not a taking anymore. Now you're a perpetrator. So really interesting dynamics 

LeRoy Gordon: around that. I think that is great. I think we need more education around things. Yeah.

LeRoy Gordon: Betty White. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. We, 

LeRoy Gordon: I think if it was as simple as, you know, yes. No. Which I think, you know, if you ask, uh, I think I honestly, I think the high schoolers and stuff, they're probably getting some Okay. Education. They seem like to be solid. Right, right. Let's, let's ask somebody who grew up at the same time that I did.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. And you know, it's not a, it's not certain that, that, you know, they understand consent. Right? 

Matt Kosterman: Correct. 

LeRoy Gordon: I think the simpler we can have, you know, the circle show it visual, I think that's beautiful. And I think that. That is something that as someone who works with men, that's gotta be at top of my list.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. And I will absolutely 

Matt Kosterman: check, check, check it out. I think you'd enjoy that and thank you. And the, um, there's a DA bunch of different acronyms for it, but the, the RBD SM A conversation mm-hmm. Has nothing to do with BDSM. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: But it's, it's, um, when you're gonna have an encounter with another 

Matt Kosterman: mm-hmm.

Matt Kosterman: Human, it's relationship status, boundaries. 

Matt Kosterman: Mm. 

Matt Kosterman: Uh, sexual history. 

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Uh, m meaning what's this encounter gonna mean? 

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: And then aftercare, what do I need for aftercare? 

Matt Kosterman: I love that. 

Matt Kosterman: Do I need you to text me? Do I need you to call me? Are we boyfriend and girlfriend? Are we boyfriend and boyfriend?

Matt Kosterman: What is, you know, you know, do I need to just be cuddled for for 15 minutes and then you can go on your way? Um, so it's a very powerful conversation to have. 

LeRoy Gordon: It's powerful. It sounds like, you know, simple. Lay it all out the. The stuff that I, I, there may be whatever there is associated with the sexual history piece, there may be shame associated with Yeah.

LeRoy Gordon: But just, 

Matt Kosterman: well, sexual history more, more of, uh, uh, STIs. 

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Got it. Got it. It's really st 

Matt Kosterman: i 

LeRoy Gordon: disclosure, not necessarily disclosing, which I can see it being safe and helpful to disclose other things if 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

LeRoy Gordon: But it, you know, harm, but that may have been caused, but 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Understand the rest. 

Matt Kosterman: But it's, you know, sexual the relationship status.

Matt Kosterman: So Got, I'm currently in an open relationship. An open relating relationship. Yes. Or, you know, 

LeRoy Gordon: the truth, the truth, which is like, you know, like the glide has that sometimes. Yeah. You know, something as simple as relationship status. You know, let it be, let it be known. Let it be as, you know, let no violation happen there, hopefully.

LeRoy Gordon: And if it does, you know, repair it address later on mm-hmm. Repair later on. Uh, I think that's all the important stuff that, that we should have. And I can see. Passion coming in and making us, you know, maybe. Yeah. Oh, I know I should talk about these things. You get that little framework. That sounds, that sounds good.

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. That sounds like it's like a, 

Matt Kosterman: it's very, yeah. It's nice. It's very powerful. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. It's good stuff. It's good stuff. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yeah. So you're, so you're working with the men's group mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Teaching. Uh, where do you, where do your yoga, where do your yoga classes 

LeRoy Gordon: here? So, right now I'm at Fourth Studio, uh, fourth Movement studio.

LeRoy Gordon: Fourth 

Matt Kosterman: Movement. 

LeRoy Gordon: Okay. Uh, it's in, um, Logan Square. It is a beautiful community. Nice. I, I'm not sure how long the first studio's been open, but we just opened a second space. Uh, it's just a bit down the street for hot, uh, classes. So hot yoga and Hot Mat Pilates. 

Matt Kosterman: And you did yoga teacher training? 

LeRoy Gordon: I did yoga teacher training last May.

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: And that, so yoga teacher training is like, you know, yoga teacher. Being a yoga teacher feels like a big piece of the, the next steps of my journey as I, you know, during the men's circle and such. Have had trouble like finding men who, you know, align with the work, who are working on more than just the body.

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. You know, health stuff. Mm-hmm. But also the, the, their heart and their mind. And I was like, how do we, you know, connect with these guys? And yoga's been something I've been interested in and for a while, and feeling the call for a while. Again, one of those things that you asked me 10 years ago, if I'd be doing this, I would not be doing right.

LeRoy Gordon: Uh, according to that Leroy. Right. Um, but it just is very in alignment with, you know, the work that I'm doing. So last year I was lucky enough to get a scholarship from Core Power to have it fully paid for, to do, um, sweet yoga teacher training bypass. It's a couple hundred hours 

Matt Kosterman: right. 

LeRoy Gordon: It's, uh, $3,000, 

Matt Kosterman: a couple hundred hours though.

LeRoy Gordon: Couple hundred hours of train? Uh, yes. 200 hours. 

Matt Kosterman: 200 

LeRoy Gordon: hours, yes. Yeah. Of train. Yes. Yes, yes. And, uh, yeah, it was, you know, took over life for a few months. Uhhuh and completely worth it. 

Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh, 

LeRoy Gordon: um, if I'm being honest, like I, I was hoping to get a little community out of it. Did I get a ton of community out of it?

LeRoy Gordon: Uh, core power, not my favorite spot for how they do yoga. Okay. And you know how they, um. I guess align with yogic principles. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Uh, and there's 

Matt Kosterman: so many different threads you 

Matt Kosterman: use so 

LeRoy Gordon: many threads. So many threads. Yeah. Their, their thread is money. 

Matt Kosterman: Money 

LeRoy Gordon: I started. Yeah. They love that money 

Matt Kosterman: thread. I started my, my, my first yoga was, yeah.

Matt Kosterman: It was core power 

LeRoy Gordon: back in the day. Yeah. And it's great. I think it's great for participants. Great place to, you know, yeah. Uh, get in and get your feet wet and maybe do have some community there based on, you know, based on the teachers, based on the other people around. It's all about 

Matt Kosterman: the teacher. Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, based on, you know, uh, if the other people are really wanting that community.

LeRoy Gordon: I love fourth was fourth, um, so community based, they don't even have mirrors. These are also just very like. Like mindful based, like wanting to reverse places where harm may have been or Okay. You know, not allow harm to like, build up body image things like allowing us to forget about how it looks. The, the motto is, it's not about how it looks.

LeRoy Gordon: It's about how it feels. Yeah. And it truly is. Right. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: have you done naked yoga yet? 

LeRoy Gordon: I have not. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I want, it used to be naked yoga in Chicago. I wanna do naked yoga. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yoga, naked yoga. Let's go. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. In 

LeRoy Gordon: the bathroom. Naked yoga. 

I 

Matt Kosterman: haven't done that. You gotta get that stretch in the while The hot water's on.

Matt Kosterman: I was with, I was with a, the house for this retreat last month and the, the, it's a guy a little bit older than me and he likes to play, uh. Uh, naked pickleball they have down in, in Arizona. 

LeRoy Gordon: Really? Oh man. That was flopping 

Matt Kosterman: about because Yeah, he was all about, yeah. More an nudity, more, you know, fuck, fuck.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. If that's what you want. 

LeRoy Gordon: Fair too. Fair too. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Right, right. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, but yeah, fourth has been a great journey. Um, I, I'm very early into the yoga journey as an instructor, I'm still a little bit like, oh, am I doing it right? Um, and I've gotten the message that there's a, a big range of, right. Yeah. And so far that I'm doing pretty good because of my instructor experiences in general, just being able to be in front of a room and not, not, uh, be too much of a layer.

LeRoy Gordon: Right. And learning to speak, to speak to a group, uh, about a lot of the stuff that I've learned really, you know, there's a lot of stuff I feel like I'm on when I'm, when I'm up there, I'm like, oh, I don't know anything about healing and mindfulness. But you do so much. 

Matt Kosterman: Well, all the experience of being on stage and wrestling and being on stage at Orangetheory.

Matt Kosterman: 'cause that's very much a stage. 

LeRoy Gordon: Yes, yes, yes. 

Matt Kosterman: When you're, when you're leading a group there. So, uh, 

LeRoy Gordon: yeah, that's, it's been great, you know, um, so far I feel like I'm seeing mostly physical changes in the people that have been to my classes. Um, and a pretty, like, pretty solid and consistent bunch physical changes, seeing them take on greater challenges and, you know, succeeded those challenges, which something I, I have enjoyed about fitness, like throughout, but yoga.

LeRoy Gordon: Having the physical piece, but also that mental, um, emotional supportive piece feels like a, a, a combining of the worlds that I've been, you know, really developing, you know, fitness piece my entire life. But now, right, this, you know, development piece, spiritual piece, spiritual 

Matt Kosterman: development, 

LeRoy Gordon: um, you know, healing piece, all that, getting to come together.

LeRoy Gordon: So I really like, my goal is to spend as much time being a yoga instructor as possible. You know, move out of just the, the, the orange theory space. Uh, eventually, yeah. Been there for me for almost 10 years at this point, you know, really supported my pro wrestling career, uh, particularly with a being flexible uhhuh and me to be able to be gone for two, three weeks and then come back, you know, time.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Um, it was a really big appreciation there, but like, I. I feel like this is my calling and, um, you know, just getting closer and closer to making that a thing in the world. Yeah. And develop and have it, you know, hopefully have some impact for folks. 

Matt Kosterman: And are you doing, you doing private fitness training?

LeRoy Gordon: I have one private client, one private. I'm not doing that like a ton right now. Okay. And that, that interested in private fitness training. 

Matt Kosterman: Okay. 

LeRoy Gordon: Private yoga while I throw some yoga at you private and maybe you lift some weights. That sounds cool. Like you get in there, you know, 

Matt Kosterman: get in there. Okay. So yeah.

Matt Kosterman: So yeah. And a little bit of coach angle with spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. So you're available for that. 

LeRoy Gordon: Available for that. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, 

LeRoy Gordon: absolutely. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cool. So we'll put all that in the, in the little text down below so people can click and like, and subscribe. Yeah. And do, do all the things. Do stuff. Um, yeah. I just, I I just love your story.

Matt Kosterman: I love your grit and your determination and your heart to, to have come from where you came from and to have gotten here is, is incredible. 

LeRoy Gordon: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Um, truly. 

LeRoy Gordon: Appreciate that, Matt. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

LeRoy Gordon: Appreciate that. Uh, and appreciate, uh, the role that you've had in it. No small role, like truly. 

Matt Kosterman: Well, 

LeRoy Gordon: thank you. Yeah. Um, at that time where, you know, I'm, I'm starting to get into the work and I'm curious about things, you know, you come out with, one of the things I was curious about, I was like, I don't know where to start with, with plant medicine or Yeah.

LeRoy Gordon: Or any of these things. Uh, and you were there as a person who, you know, it was right there at the beginning with Landmark even, you know, getting to meet you there. Right. It was super cool and you're always like a, a, a bright person to having in the space. Good person to having in the space back then. And, um, you know, you gifted me the NDMA, uh, ceremony for my birthday that year.

LeRoy Gordon: Oh, it was your birthday. It was my birthday, yeah. That's right. Such a cool gift. Like truly, truly. 

Matt Kosterman: Well, I'm, 

I'm 

LeRoy Gordon: honored an amazing gift and, you know, the, the, the, the moments, the things that spun out from there, um, all, all helped me, um, get here today. And, um, you know, the biggest piece that I feel like is, is being more, being more of myself, more, and.

LeRoy Gordon: Each day. Mm-hmm. Being the meat that I want to be more and more each day. Um, came all the way from that. So thank you for, for that in your role on 

Matt Kosterman: that. Absolutely, brother. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Well, thanks for being here everybody. Thanks for listening. Hope you got something of value and uh, till next time, peace out.

LeRoy Gordon: Thanks everyone.

Matt Kosterman: Boom. Um, 

LeRoy Gordon: wait, what am I gonna do? I gotta hold that.