[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00:01.50 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host, Jala Prendes (she/her), and today I am joined by Moxie (any/all), to continue our discussion of Frankenstein, the 2025 Guillermo del Toro movie. First at the top, before we even say, hey, how you doing? um So this got cut into three episodes. We're going to have another episode next month to cover the second half of the story. Because when I was writing notes on this movie, it became so long of a document that we had to make another episode so we have some breathing room. The last one was really kind of breakneck speed and everybody didn't have a chance to really say as much as they would like. So ah we are adding a little breathing room in there by expanding how many episodes this is and how many hours we're talking about it. So ah that being said, you can look forward to The Creature's Tale next time. Today we are talking about Victor's Tale. This is the spoiler cast. If you want to hear about the production on this movie and all of that fun, there is a three and a half hour episode for you. The one that came out right before this one. Other program notes just for general stuff. Put That Cookie Down Now. 00:01:17.34 Jala Put That Cookie Down Now, the new Arnold Schwarzenegger chronological movie show has come out. And so we have the first episode already out there for the Hercules in New York movie. And the one that's coming out probably on the same day or right around there as this episode of Put That Cookie Down Now will be on Stay Hungry. 00:01:40.92 Jala And it's a weirdly a movie nobody knows exists, but it's got ah some really awesome actors and it's a really interesting film. So stay tuned for that. 00:01:53.78 Jala Go check that out. Put that cookie down now. And other than that, hi, Moxie. How are you doing today? 00:02:00.54 Moxie Yo, pretty good. Man, there are so many good Schwarzenegger movies. 00:02:07.38 Jala There are, and like I've never seen some of these older ones before. 00:02:11.92 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:02:12.19 Jala They've been on my list. They're like, oh yeah, I need to i need to watch that first time that he was doing a film. And um I gotta to say, I'm pleasantly surprised. ah So far, two for two, I've liked both of them, and so is Dave. We both enjoyed them. Now, um Hercules in New York is objectively a bad movie, but it's fun and cute. It doesn't have to be a good movie to be fun and to be enjoyable. So... um yeah. 00:02:37.57 Moxie I'm trying to think what some of my favorites are. Like, I love Last Action Hero is amazing. 00:02:42.86 Jala yeah. 00:02:43.69 Moxie up Well, I mean, I feel like I'm sure there are people who disagree with me. I feel like how could you not say that the best term ah best one is Terminator 2? 00:02:57.91 Jala yeah 00:02:58.07 Moxie ah But Predator, though, also pretty good. Anyway, sorry. 00:03:02.34 Jala Yeah, I don't know. 00:03:02.46 Moxie Yeah. 00:03:03.28 Jala Well, it's it's like, you know, you've got that, you've got Jingle All the Way, you've got, for me, twins. I like twins quite a bit. And that's one that a lot of people don't talk about. ah Danny DeVito and Arnold Schwarzenegger playing twins. 00:03:16.69 Jala That's very funny stuff. and i I feel like that was the first time he was really allowed... to be like the comedic version of himself on screen because it was all the muscles and the, you know, whatever he was coney in. 00:03:25.96 Moxie Yeah, 00:03:29.03 Jala Right. know, so, so when he was able to actually show, no, I can also be a funny guy. um You know, like that, that was kind of like a, pivot point for his career, but that's another podcast. 00:03:40.97 Jala but 00:03:41.11 Moxie yeah yeah, yeah, totally, totally. 00:03:42.78 Jala ah So, so let us, let us move on. Um, so yeah, you're doing fine. Moxie is from the level, which is a video game round table show from duck feed which I show up on occasionally, probably once a month or thereabouts. 00:03:56.96 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:03:59.50 Jala And, uh, yeah, you talk about video games and stuff like that, but today we're talking movies. So cool. So ah you recently rewatched this. Did you have any interesting experiences in this rewatch, like picking up on different stuff than you did the the first time round since like, you know, you've you had the benefit of talking about it for three and a half hours between takes. 00:04:23.46 Moxie Right. So I think the the two big things were, one, um noticing how much the prologue is kind of a bait and switch in that, unlike the rest of the movie, the prologue, in a lot of ways, is actually shot like a horror movie and, like, you know, a monster movie, that sort of thing. 00:04:42.24 Jala Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:04:45.69 Moxie And then other than that, like, there's not... 00:04:51.16 Moxie There are a lot of horrible things that happen in the movie and a lot of body horror and stuff, but like it's not mostly a horror movie. So that was one thing I noticed. 00:04:58.88 Jala of whom 00:05:00.60 Moxie The other thing that's going to be particularly relevant to this episode is how hard how much Victor's story can wildly diverge based on how reliable of a narrator you think he is. 00:05:20.55 Jala Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:05:21.56 Moxie Because, like, 00:05:21.87 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:05:25.97 Moxie objectively, like, his relationship with his father, you know, that sort of thing, appears to be pretty abusive, that sort of thing. 00:05:36.09 Moxie And, like, you know that's all that. But, like, it's sort of unclear how much of that actually happened, you know? 00:05:45.52 Jala Right. Right. And how much of it is just, just the way that he's spinning it. 00:05:47.10 Moxie And so, yeah. 00:05:51.00 Jala Because like there's, there's wording that we'll get to, ah based around his father that really, makes you wonder, makes you wonder how much of it is actually, you know, no, the, this was unquestioningly this way, or if it was just the way that he took it, what he, he kept out of that situation, you know? 00:05:51.64 Moxie Right, ah exactly, exactly. 00:06:14.37 Jala Yeah. Yeah, well, let's let's kick it off. um As usual, I will read off what is going on, and then we will stop. 00:06:22.62 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:06:22.64 Jala You can wave at me or whatever, Moxie, if you want to say something. And yeah, like we will we will talk about it as we go through. So the prologue opens with the Horizont, which is and a big ship that is trapped in ice on all sides in farthermost north of farthermos north 00:06:44.94 Jala The men labor to free the hull and the second in command informs the captain that they want to turn back to St. Petersburg. The captain refuses and says that they were chartered for this mission to get to the North Pole and would see it through. 00:07:00.00 Jala So you already get this set up with this do or die kind of stakes. 00:07:00.25 Moxie Yeah. Well, 00:07:03.88 Jala And like that theme is important to a lot of Victor's tale, this first half of this narrative, for sure. So um at night they spot, oh, hmm. 00:07:15.74 Moxie well and i you know I should have looked more into this. It didn't occur to me to do so. But my understanding is it seems like at this time period, like Antarctica was very much a thing. Because I know it shows up a lot in... um like Edgar Allan Poe's stories. 00:07:36.30 Moxie I know H.P. Lovecraft does a lot with it. With Grant, he was not this era, but he wanted to be. know, that sort of thing. 00:07:43.19 Jala Right, right. 00:07:45.15 Moxie So like, that that's just, ah it seems like this scene is very much kind of in the zeitgeist of when Shelley was writing writing and then, you know, now Del Toro's interpretation. 00:07:56.50 Jala Right. Well, that's that's in part because I think it's Captain Cook, believe it is, um that that wrote all of the like journals and stuff about his journey through the Arctic. 00:08:02.82 Moxie Yes. 00:08:09.75 Jala And that just kind of triggered so many people's imaginations. And there is a lot of weird fiction that covers Arctic travels. 00:08:17.74 Moxie Yep. Yeah. 00:08:18.82 Jala And like all the different kind of fiction that people came up with about what's out there in the ice and everything, because like they felt like surely there's something out there. There's gotta be some kind of horrible, terrible thing out there out in the wasteland of ice that's out there. 00:08:33.12 Jala And like, it just triggered people's imaginations so strongly. So yeah, it sets it up to be like a Gothic tale just by the fact that it's an Arctic adventure story that we're starting with here. 00:08:45.04 Jala So at night, they spot an explosion a couple of miles away and a team heads out to investigate and they find a ruined camp with a bunch of sled dogs that they make a point of saying none of them are harmed. 00:08:57.75 Jala You they want to make sure that, you know, the dogs are OK. 00:08:59.14 Moxie Uh-huh. 00:09:00.62 Jala And there's a man with a prosthetic leg who's near death. And this would be Victor. And they put them on a stretcher. And as they're doing that, they hear this roar in the darkness. And you don't know what the hell it is. It's this, you know, unearthly roar. This one doesn't sound too over the top, like too much of an animal noise at this point, thankfully. But um as we talked about in the last episode, the animal noises that they intersperse, especially in this opening prologue time, 00:09:31.12 Jala are just like real over the top and they don't really synthesize very well with the creature's voice. But we'll get there, we'll get there. So um as... 00:09:39.10 Moxie Yeah, I did a quick shout out. 00:09:40.61 Jala oh 00:09:41.61 Moxie I did wonder if the thing with the sled dogs might have been intended as a shout out to Carpenters the thing. um 00:09:50.98 Jala Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it could well be, it could well be. So um as the men then lift Victor aboard, because they they rush off through the darkness and they go back to the ship and they lift Victor aboard. But then the captain readies the rifleman to defend against whatever the hell's out there that's chasing this guy. 00:10:10.47 Jala And multiple rounds are unloaded into the creature who's just this big, dark, shadowy, growling form that's coming towards them. And um he is just keeps coming. 00:10:21.84 Jala He doesn't slow down even a bit as he's hit by all of these bullets. And men attack him and he just bats them away, killing some of them as he goes, just completely unstoppable. 00:10:33.42 Jala And this is the point where he's like, he backhands somebody and their neck breaks and things like that. Because he's so strong that he just... 00:10:39.04 Moxie Sure. 00:10:40.60 Jala you just just you know, backhands them. That's all he's doing. He's, he's just, you know, pushing them out of the way, but that kills them because he's just so, so unstoppable. And it's important to note that he's not trying to kill them and he's not going out of his way to chase everybody down. He's going straight towards his goal, which is Victor. And he just wants the one thing. 00:11:01.77 Jala And he just wants everybody else to get away from him. And that's all. Like, you know. um So he climbs aboard. the the He being the creature here. And he's growling. And the captain goes to Victor and asks, what in the hell that is? What what is that? 00:11:18.29 Jala You know? ah What does it want? 00:11:20.31 Moxie Why though? 00:11:20.53 Jala And before... Yeah, yeah. And so before Victor can answer, the creature points to the captain and does his really great, you know, like ah clipped a lot, used a lot. 00:11:31.99 Jala Bring him to me You know, it's really great. 00:11:35.79 Moxie That's pretty good. 00:11:38.11 Jala And Alordi, the Jacob Alordi, the guy who plays the creature, studied Mongolian throat singing in order to deepen his voice for this part. And it's, hit yeah, yeah. 00:11:50.26 Moxie Oh, no, con go on, go on. 00:11:52.12 Jala ah The fury that you hear in his voice at this point when he's you know saying this is so, so great. like It's so apt. you You can feel the deep rage in him just from the way it's executed. And at this point, the creature's face is covered and he has a hood on. So you just see like his fucked up hand and, you know, his, his fucked up little eyeballs and, you know, where he's still growing back skin from what we'll find out about later in the movie. 00:12:20.91 Jala And um so he looks all fucked up and, and, you know, definitely like monstrous and you you don't get to see his face. So the acting is a hundred percent in that voice. 00:12:31.00 Moxie So I would say this, I think, gets to probably the one Maybe there's other... I don't The one big, ah like in my opinion, thing that could be changed about this movie, which is the animal noises. 00:12:47.38 Moxie Just because I think with his weird throat singing thing, like I don't think it's necessary. 00:12:48.00 Jala Right. Mm 00:12:52.70 Jala hmm. 00:12:55.00 Moxie And i feel like it a little bit... 00:12:55.25 Jala right 00:13:01.02 Moxie The creature, like in this scene, the creature is supposed to be a monster, but like he's not really a monster. it know. I just, that is one of the areas where feel like ah maybe there that was a mistake. 00:13:13.35 Jala Well, and here's the thing too, and and this is what I kind of like come back to in my own head is ah when you have, for example, Tim Curry as darkness in the movie legend, which I recently talked about on a nostalgia, my Arcanum shout out to Doug leaf anyway. 00:13:31.92 Jala So in that movie, they did a lot of heavy effects to Tim Curry's already awesome voice to make it deeper and darker and, you know, more resonant and stuff. And it's like, why couldn't you just do that? 00:13:43.86 Jala Like, if he's got the Mongolian throat singing already, You don't need to add a tiger roar. 00:13:45.15 Moxie Right. 00:13:50.39 Jala You just need to, you know, put this other, this layering of effects over the voice the way that they did in the 80s and it worked just fine. Like, i you don't really need to do that. 00:14:00.70 Jala And and part of the reason for the animal noises, and we'd mentioned this before, but it's because the creature is made with parts that are primarily human, but also there are animal parts in there. 00:14:12.00 Jala There's like a token pig when we get there. in the creation scene of him on in the background of all the bodies and stuff. There's a pig somewhere. So like he got a tendon and now he can roar like a bear. 00:14:22.62 Jala I don't know. yeah So that's how science works in this era. 00:14:24.98 Moxie Yeah, that's how science works. 00:14:28.77 Jala Yes, that's that's what that's where we're going to go with. But yeah, I mean, like, I understand that's what they're trying to do there. But like they did too much of it, in my opinion. 00:14:36.54 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:14:36.96 Jala But ah anyway, yes. so So the men attack him after he screams, bring him to me. And a few more people are killed. The captain pulls out a blunderbuss and shoots the creature from close up, like close range. 00:14:51.04 Jala Bam, here's a blunderbuss to the chest. Knocks him off the ship and onto the ice. And the creature, oh, uh-huh. 00:14:55.80 Moxie And let's... 00:14:59.42 Moxie Sorry. ah I feel like we should just take a moment and appreciate how badass that gun is. It's a quad-barreled shotgun that the barrels you rotate by hand to bring each one in line. 00:15:13.76 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:15:15.03 Moxie I don't know if they ever show how it's loaded, if it's break action, or that would be my assumption, but that is a really cool gun design. 00:15:24.96 Jala Yeah, like when he pulls it off the wall, it's already got the the stuff in there. So like he just has to shoot it. 00:15:29.75 Moxie Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:15:30.75 Jala So like it's already it's there for emergencies in case of polar bear attack or something, I guess. I don't know. 00:15:36.38 Moxie yeah yeah 00:15:37.12 Jala um So, yeah, I would imagine that the reloading process would take a minute, which, you know, because like um when he was having the rounds of guys use the rifles, ah you know, it was rounds of guys where one one set of guys were up front lined up and then they backed off and then the next set, you know, was firing while the first set is is reloading, you know, because it's taking a while to do all of that mess, you know, getting the guns ready. 00:16:01.24 Moxie Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:16:02.88 Jala so ah so So the blunderbuss knocks the creature off the ship and he gets back up and repeats himself, bring him to me, you know insisting that Victor be given over to him. And he pushes the entire ship, sending everybody flying. And we mentioned this before, but the ship was a full scale replica and it was on gimbals so that Jacob Elordi could literally push the ship. So he was pushing the ship and the ship was literally moving. This wasn't done in post. This was really happening. which is really cool. 00:16:35.05 Jala And it's also very fun to think about the scene when you're watching it as this was shot in Netflix parking lot and they were dressed for the Arctic in the middle of this parking lot. And like, I don't know how they, they just aren't all glistening with sweat, but you know, I guess, cause they're so covered up, you don't see the sweat. It's just trickling down their little backs. 00:16:53.84 Jala Yeah. 00:16:53.91 Moxie Okay, so that's something I did wonder is whether that was actual snow, I mean man-made, but actual snow, or if that was the weird like soap bubble or way of wherever it is they use for things. 00:17:05.98 Jala Well, I would imagine that it would be like fake snow because, you know, like it it would have melted in the parking lot for that. 00:17:09.70 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:17:12.85 Moxie Yeah, oh yeah, if this was in like, what, this would have been California? 00:17:13.50 Jala So. 00:17:16.25 Jala Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. 00:17:17.05 Moxie Yeah, yeah, there's no way it was real snow. 00:17:18.78 Jala Or a lot of it was shot in Toronto. But I mean, still, i don't I don't know. 00:17:23.99 Moxie I mean, maybe they're depending on the time of year, but probably not. 00:17:25.22 Jala Maybe the season, right? 00:17:27.83 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:17:28.09 Jala Yeah, yeah. so ah So the captain has one shot left. And then the second in command is like, you can't kill it. And he's like, I'm not aiming for him. And with one shot left, the captain shoots the ice around the creature and it cracks. And the creature falls through into the icy water, disappearing. 00:17:47.38 Jala So the threat now eliminated for the time being. Inside the ship, the doctor gives Victor laudanum, and Victor asks how many men it killed and insists that the creature will kill many more unless they surrender Victor to him. 00:18:03.16 Moxie And i think it's important to realize here, latinum is opium dissolved in alcohol. So the entire time ah Victor is telling this story, he is high on opioids. 00:18:09.27 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:18:14.70 Moxie So again, how reliable do you consider Victor's story to be? 00:18:15.06 Jala He is so high. 00:18:19.74 Jala Right, right. And not only that, but he is strung out. He's been on the ice for weeks. He hasn't been sleeping. He he just had like, ah we we find out what happens before in the creature's section of the tale. So like, it'll be next month before we talk about it in detail. But he had a harrowing experience. 00:18:37.18 Jala right before all of this happened. So um all of the harrowing experiences being strung out, you know, being in fear slash anger slash whatever and trying to buy dynamite to take out, you know, this massive creature that can't be killed and then, you know, then being high as hell. 00:18:54.39 Moxie Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:18:54.69 Jala it's Yeah. So anyway, Victor is insisting that the captain promised to send him out on the ice when the monster comes for him And that way it will prevent more deaths. 00:19:07.01 Jala And the captain asks, ah, right. 00:19:07.61 Moxie And allows Victor to be the hero of the story, which is very Victor. 00:19:13.66 Jala Yeah, exactly. Like even in his desperate state where he seems real humble, he's not. He's not. So ah the captain asks, what is this creature? And what what manner of devil made him? 00:19:28.06 Jala And to this, Victor admits that he created Ida. i And he then launches into his story, kicking off with, some of what I will tell you is fact. 00:19:40.47 Jala Some is not, but it is all true. So like that off the top, 00:19:43.83 Moxie I love that line. 00:19:45.85 Jala You know, like that off the top. Some of what I will tell you is fact. Some of it isn't, but it is all true. He's already telling you in that line that he is telling his perspective of the thing and he understands that not everyone's perspective is going to be the same as his because he admits not all of it is factual, but for him it is true. 00:20:10.97 Jala So, you know, that's that's a whole lot right there. 00:20:11.42 Moxie Yeah. 00:20:15.06 Jala And a few other little notes. So del Toro says that you start with the captain, his back to the sun as it rises, because that captain is a surrogate for Victor, like in the beginning of this this part here. And also... Also, the creature has yellow eyes at the end of the movie slash in the Arctic. The entire time he's in the Arctic, he has yellow eyes, but not for the rest of the film. The yellow eyes come from the original novel, and it was changed. And I think the reason why is because GDT probably felt that Elordi's eyes were better in their natural color because he casts people in roles for their eyes and their capacity to emote. And like with the weird color in his eyes, like Lordy's eyes don't do the same thing as his, his gentle Brown, you know? 00:21:02.61 Jala So, ah but also um that that kind of is important because in the Arctic scenes, he's really angry and he's really ah like animalistic. 00:21:02.64 Moxie Yeah, yeah. I 00:21:16.14 Jala And then during the actual rest of the film, he's actually way gentle. So like, you know, the yellow eyes don't fit the way that the character is for the rest of the film. 00:21:26.66 Jala So, you know, like there there is some some play at work there for that. uh also in the original yes 00:21:31.58 Moxie and and we've discussed And we discussed last episode that, like, this is a movie where, like, in a lot of ways, realism, continuity, all those things are very much secondary to, like, telling the story. 00:21:48.57 Jala uh-huh right 00:21:49.54 Moxie So, like... I'm sure del Toro would have no problem with just like changing the person's eyes if they, if he felt, you know, it was more symbolically appropriate in a certain scene or whatever. 00:22:02.23 Jala Right, right, exactly. And also in the original screenplay, the Arctic setting is described several times as limbo. And that's significant for both the ongoing religious themes that you see throughout this movie, as well as the current position that both Victor and the creature find themselves in and the captain too, to be real. 00:22:23.79 Jala all of them find themselves in this this kind of space that is very much like Limbo. 00:22:24.38 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:22:28.63 Jala So that was just something that I picked up on from the original screenplay, which I read before this. So from here, then we kick off into Victor's Tale Part One. 00:22:39.45 Jala So ah we flash back to Victor's past. His mother, Claire, prepares the house for the arrival of her husband, Leopold, Victor's father. And um that fantastic and ridiculous red veil that she's wearing when Leopold comes and, you know, the entirely red ensemble for that matter, like that is so striking. And like, you know, I, we talked about it last time, but like, um, the, a costume design lady had to come up with that veil out of nowhere because that was added last minute by del Toro. And it's a fantastic ad. 00:23:17.05 Moxie Yeah, I sent Jala a message. I said, why is Victor's mother a blood-borne boss? 00:23:24.69 Jala 100%, 100% really feeling those vibes. 00:23:26.90 Moxie Yeah, and and and I feel like um the maid's veils also who really adds to that first scene. 00:23:33.91 Jala m 00:23:35.63 Moxie um 00:23:36.25 Jala right 00:23:36.70 Moxie almost Almost reminds me of the nurses from Silent Hill a little bit. 00:23:41.74 Jala Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, sure. And it's a little bit interesting is that in the original screenplay, there's some differences. So Victor's mom was playing hide and seek with a blindfold on in a garden looking for Victor. And then they stop when she says a storm is coming and for Victor to hide under her cloak as they return home. 00:24:01.53 Jala he and she both say that they love each other. And so like it's a bonding moment and there's a storm coming, which is like, you know, ah ominous foreshadowing of the rest of Victor's life, I guess. um All of that kind of thing, but it's a very different kind of scene and it doesn't draw in the father figure immediately. It's just about him and her. And also in the original screenplay, Leopold had auburn hair, so he wasn't nearly as old as charles Charles Dance's version. So that was changed to make that disparity in age larger between the two ah parents. So that way, you know, like the the distance between them and like the the strife that comes into play seems like more natural, I guess. 00:24:44.02 Jala So... Present day Victor explains that his father was a significantly older man and he was a world-class surgeon. He married Claire for convenience of both her money and title and he was gone most of the time. 00:24:58.42 Jala The rest of the time, mother was mine. Yeah. 00:25:02.91 Moxie And let's be clear, he has no way of knowing why his parents got married. Like, unless his father happened to say something, like... 00:25:10.61 Jala Right, exactly. you know And so like he doesn't he doesn't actually know. But yeah so but also he's he's being real edible complex here. um like So we replaced right we replaced the original Victor and Elizabeth you know from the novel being cousins in the original version ah with, no, he's actually in love with his mother who looks like Elizabeth because it's the same actress with some prosthetics on. 00:25:20.31 Moxie Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's super creepy. 00:25:38.34 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:25:39.19 Jala And then after that, we cut to an awkward family dinner scene. Leopold insists that Claire sop up the blood on the plate from the meat and eat it on a piece of bread because she's pregnant. And then like we see how this this moment of her like looking like she's about to throw up as she tries to put this in her mouth. And then like the blood is dripping down the side of her mouth and everything. 00:26:00.92 Moxie So this was one of them that where I really got um started thinking about the idea of, you know, an unreliable narrator, because that scene, you know, that very much could just be like, you know, like what husbands do when they're worried about, you know, their wife is pregnant and like, oh, are you eating enough? 00:26:09.26 Jala Uh huh. 00:26:21.38 Moxie Or, you know, well, have some of this. 00:26:22.71 Jala Whoa. 00:26:22.94 Moxie Like that could have been, know, so it's like, was it actually the the father kind of being creepy and like forcing something on her? Or was it something innocent that Victor you know is seeing this way, you know? 00:26:37.24 Jala Well, and one thing that I was thinking too is that if she doesn't get enough iron, for example, then she could have an anemic spell and that could endanger both her and the baby depending upon where she has this spell since they have all these stares and shit. 00:26:48.92 Moxie Right, exactly. 00:26:52.44 Jala But I will say, like, it is real creepy when the blood's dripping down her mouth and she's just like looking like she's going to throw up and she's looking unblinkingly at Leopold, just staring and at the camera. 00:26:56.82 Moxie Oh, yeah. 00:27:02.71 Moxie Yeah. 00:27:03.68 Jala So like we get to see her staring, you know, in in this way. 00:27:06.46 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:27:07.32 Jala um But in the original screenplay, it's a little bit different and it is actually worse. Over dinner, he's trying to get Victor's mother to sign a deed and she refuses. So he's trying to get her to to sign over some property or something at in the original screenplay version. So ah in the original screenplay version, it is a little bit clearer that they are actually having arguments about state and things like that because that's that's mentioned in the movie that we got but it was shown in the original screenplay so 00:27:35.31 Moxie Yeah, 00:27:41.62 Moxie yeah i kind of I think I kind of prefer the little bit more ah ah ambiguous that they went with, you 00:27:45.68 Jala Ambiguous, right, or uh-huh. Right, right, I do too. So ah we cut to Victor praying to a big angel statue that evening before bed and the parents are fighting in the other room about estate and Victor. Present day Victor says this happened all the time. Claire comes to young Victor and hugs him, crying her eyes out. 00:28:04.31 Jala And we cut to the library where Victor is receiving instruction from Leopold about the body as he's to inherit the family business and to become a surgeon. And present day Victor says that Leopold despised both wife and son. 00:28:19.03 Jala So, you know, okay, that's that's his interpretation is that Leopold hates everybody. But okay, whatever. 00:28:25.11 Moxie Yep. 00:28:25.54 Jala um You know, again, we don't we don't really know what the case is here. ah So this is also the first time that we see Victor drinking milk. First time. So, you know, like, i was I counting the number of times he's drinking milk? Yes, I was on a rewatch. 00:28:41.61 Jala So... So when Victor forgets something, Leopold uses a switch to hit Victor on his cheek once and then squeezes Victor's hands, touching his cheek very softly with a finger before leaving. 00:28:54.42 Jala And so like that right there, again, we we talked about it before, but um to me, like, okay, he uses a switch, but he hits him once. One time, not like wailing on him with this thing. 00:29:06.82 Jala And then he squeezes his hands and touches his cheek very gently, just trying to show like, you know, some care after care. 00:29:14.46 Moxie Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:29:14.84 Jala Okay. And, um you know, like that's, that's an element in the original screenplay. When Leopold uses that switch, he ends up having a look of remorse. So in the original screenplay too, he feels bad about having to use the switch at all, actually. 00:29:30.14 Moxie Well, and this is this is kind of tough because 00:29:30.18 Jala yeah. 00:29:34.07 Moxie you know, to what degree are we supposed to ah interpret this according to, like, modern standards of parenting versus standards parenting at the time? 00:29:41.91 Jala Right, right. 00:29:44.18 Moxie Because, like, you know, the whole thing with, like, the husband being a lot older than the wife and, like, potentially marrying for title, like, that would have been super, super common at the time. 00:29:44.82 Jala Uh huh. 00:29:55.06 Jala Right. 00:29:55.26 Moxie It doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea, but, like, it would that would not have been uncommon at the time. Similarly, like, I'm sure parents, you know very often did much worse corporal punishment than that on the regular, you know? 00:30:08.02 Jala Right. Right, right. I mean, but then again, we already know from the book that Victor is a little bit histrionic and he needs his fainting couch. 00:30:16.38 Moxie Right. 00:30:16.99 Jala So, I mean, like, oh, I've been struck! You know, that kind of that kind of business. But ah anyway, we cut to Victor and Claire playing cards as Leopold is leaving and Claire collapses and is rushed into another room, Leopold following as Claire is screaming in pain. 00:30:35.70 Jala And in the original screenplay, Claire is ah collapsing when they're playing cards and eating eggs. I don't know what why the eggs were there, but there were eggs originally and that they got taken out for the movie. 00:30:46.99 Jala And also in the screenplay, Victor originally entered the room where Claire is in pain and being operated on. And he's praying to the guardian angel while she's in the middle of all of that. 00:30:59.38 Jala And this takes away the ambiguity of whether or not Leopold willfully allowed Claire to die. So I'm glad that didn't happen because I like the ambiguity of the way that the movie is done. 00:31:09.14 Moxie Sorry, so you didn't interpret that as him allowing her to die? 00:31:14.49 Jala Um, like, 00:31:15.61 Moxie Or the other way around? that the the The original screenplay version. 00:31:20.73 Jala The original screenplay version has Victor in the room as well, which means that he would have been able to see what Leopold is or is not doing. 00:31:28.98 Moxie Oh, OK. OK, I'm following align what you're saying now. 00:31:30.33 Jala And so, yeah, so like that kind of takes away the ambiguity because if we were in the room with everything and seeing what was happening, we could come to a conclusion more. 00:31:41.82 Jala But since Victor and the camera are not in the room, we don't know what's happening in there. And then we only get Victor saying, this idea came to my mind until it became reality to me. 00:31:53.90 Jala and, you know, he killed her, and and that's what we get, and and so it depends on and whether or not you believe Victor, you know, and you believe him to be a reliable narrator, and you believe, you know, what he's telling you to be true, you know, so ah ultimately the baby lives, Claire dies, we cut to her coffin in the snow, drained of all color, but the red fabric surrounding her face, and, uh, 00:32:08.74 Moxie Yeah. 00:32:16.70 Moxie That's such you a creepy coffin. 00:32:19.13 Jala It is, it is. And Victor affixes the faceplate to it as Leopold looks on while holding baby William. Victor runs inside to grieve and the, you know, like dubbing over says a part of the universe had been hollowed out and the firmament was now permanently dark. 00:32:38.01 Moxie So i wrote I really liked that line, and it's kind of funny because like I feel like that really does accurately... 00:32:38.07 Jala We cut to Leopold. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 00:32:50.10 Moxie describe, you know, part of the human condition. You know, part of the human condition for most people is, you know, experiencing your parents ah dying. 00:32:54.65 Jala Right. 00:33:00.42 Moxie And like, yeah, there's definitely a degree to which, you know, part of your universe will never be, you know, back again. But, you know, it feels like at the same time, like, that is also part of human experience that Victor, like, makes his entire life, you know? 00:33:07.78 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:33:19.00 Jala Right. He takes this one moment and then just makes that his whole like reason for trying to defy the way that nature exists or something. I mean, it's a lot. It's a lot. 00:33:33.08 Moxie I feel bad that this is turning us into like a stu dunking on Victor ah thing, but like he does not put his best foot forward. 00:33:33.30 Jala So... 00:33:42.39 Moxie but 00:33:42.52 Jala No. And the thing is, is that Oscar Isaac is such a charismatic actor that like, it's hard because you want to like him. And like I said that before, where it's like, you really want to like Victor because he's got this rock star swagger. And he's like the type of he's putting himself forward in such a way that he's the type of character that you you normally only are asked to root for in any given movie. And yeah, You start off the movie with that kind of vibe, but then as the movie progresses, you learn more and more and more why that's a bad idea and you know how how you know rough of a person he really is. 00:34:18.46 Jala so 00:34:19.61 Moxie I really recommend if you if you like his performance, check out Moon Knight because with the with the way it's written, not to spoil anything, but with the way it's written, he gets to play very different characters throughout it. 00:34:38.23 Moxie And like one of them is basically like his Victor kind of mode and one of them is very much not. 00:34:38.93 Jala Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. 00:34:43.30 Jala ahha 00:34:44.67 Moxie And so it's fun seeing his range in that. 00:34:48.84 Jala Awesome, awesome. So we cut to Leopold and toddler William as Leopold gifts him a little horse-drawn carriage and Victor is off under a tree sulking. And the VO o tells you that William is the sunshine and Victor the storm cloud. William is everything Victor is not, clearly favored by my father, William. 00:35:09.21 Jala So, you know, he's he's jealous of the attention that's being given to William, you know, because he didn't get that attention from Leopold. He had that connection with his mother, who is now gone. So we cut to another medical lesson. 00:35:24.63 Jala And the VO tells us, an idea took shape in my mind, inevitable, unavoidable, until it became truth, right as Victor confronts his father, claiming that he willfully let her die. 00:35:37.11 Jala So this is the whole fateful no one can conquer death and I will scene, which starts Victor down his path to creating the creature in the first place. 00:35:47.69 Jala So what are your thoughts about this before I tell you about the screenplay? 00:35:52.09 Moxie Yeah, so a couple of things. One, watching it again, i didn't notice that his ah his little um anatomical toy he's fiddling with like very prominently like has a womb, and which I feel like you know very very symbolically, thematically appropriate. 00:36:06.19 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:36:09.94 Jala ahha 00:36:14.96 Jala Right. 00:36:15.01 Moxie But on the bulk of the scene, why are the... there There were two things. One, the interaction with Leopold almost reminded me of like the parable of the prodigal son. 00:36:27.44 Moxie the 00:36:27.69 Jala h 00:36:28.54 Moxie The part where ah the prodigal son comes back and the good son is like pissed that the dad's throwing a party for him. And the dad's basically like... 00:36:37.46 Jala Right. 00:36:40.18 Moxie ah you know, like, dude, you you were always here, you're great son, so I didn't have to worry about you, so that's why I'm doing all this. And my my point being, like, again, if you wanted to go with the alternate approach interpretation, I could almost see this being, like, 00:36:57.50 Moxie No, the dad doesn't like William more than you. The dad knows that you're going to be a wealthy surgeon and is worried that Victor, who's kind of a mousy dude, might not be. You know what I mean? 00:37:12.38 Jala You mean William? Yeah, that William might not be? 00:37:13.91 Moxie William, yeah. 00:37:14.61 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:37:14.83 Moxie So I'm saying, like, you I could very much see this, like, he's doing this for William because William is the less talented, ah you know, son. 00:37:14.90 Jala Right, right. 00:37:24.31 Moxie Yeah. 00:37:24.86 Jala Well, it could be that, but it could also be because Claire is now gone. Leopold is trying to step in to be the mother that William doesn't have. 00:37:31.47 Moxie He's stepping up. Yeah. Yeah. 00:37:35.65 Jala Like Victor had that already to the age that he's already at, which I don't know exactly how old he is here, but you know, he's, he's, his voice is starting to change and stuff. 00:37:36.82 Moxie Exactly. 00:37:45.65 Jala So like, you know, he's a little older. 00:37:46.44 Moxie Right. 00:37:47.76 Jala yeah, You know, like he doesn't like, yes, he still needs his mom, but like, you know, Leopold already has an established relationship with Victor, which doesn't include that part, but like he can build it with William from the beginning. 00:37:59.24 Moxie Right. 00:38:01.32 Jala And that's what he's trying to do. And like, you know, that seems like a natural, okay, he's trying to be a single dad. 00:38:05.85 Moxie okay 00:38:07.28 Jala I mean, and the fact that he's now suddenly at home and actually being there for the kids, you know, ah does he not care about Claire? 00:38:08.18 Moxie Right, exactly. 00:38:14.71 Jala Does he not care about his kids? I don't think that you can say that he he doesn't care. 00:38:17.10 Moxie Right. 00:38:18.69 Jala because that that doesn't track with what's going on here, you know? 00:38:22.84 Moxie Exactly. 00:38:23.11 Jala so 00:38:23.83 Moxie and then And then in the scene where Victor accuses him, I really like that his father's response is not, you know, outright anger, that sort of thing. 00:38:36.57 Moxie Because, you know, to a degree, like, that's a very understandable thing. you know, maybe not to think your dad plotted it, but, like, to feel a certain degree of betrayal, you know, why couldn't you save mom? 00:38:49.90 Jala Right. 00:38:50.41 Moxie Like, that's totally un... And so I like the fact that like he reacts in a reasonably fatherly way, you know? 00:38:59.61 Jala Right. And he's just like, I think we've done too much today. Like, you need to take some time. Like, I think you've got a lot going on, and obviously. i feel Like, I don't have a connection with you where I can talk to you about this. 00:39:07.45 Moxie Right. 00:39:11.90 Jala So I just need to give you some space and some time. 00:39:12.76 Moxie Right. 00:39:14.69 Jala You know, like, that's what he's trying to do. Well, in the original screenplay, when Victor confronts Leopold about his mother's death, he accuses him of wanting her wealth only. And Leopold calls Victor Hamlet, which is a whole nother thing that, you know, like, 00:39:29.59 Jala The Hamlet reference is still in the movie later on in the creature's tale when the creature is holding up a skull to it. And also when Elizabeth is holding up a skull. Like it happens multiple times in the movie where they're holding a skull. 00:39:38.58 Moxie Oh, yeah. 00:39:41.84 Jala And um so like that's a Hamlet reference. And in the original screenplay, he was called Hamlet. for this reason. So when Leopold adjourns the lesson, Victor says that Leopold hits him anytime that he's wrong, so he must not be wrong and therefore Leopold allowed his mother to die. 00:39:58.90 Jala and ah all of this would lessen the ambiguity. i mean, that's still not necessarily good logic, sound logic there because like he also could be not hitting Victor because he knows that Victor's already overloaded and is, is is you know, like he's been actively in his kids' lives more And so now he like he knows a little bit more about them and knows that he just needs to lay off Victor. 00:40:22.44 Jala you know 00:40:22.95 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:40:23.86 Jala But whatever. Anyway. I feel like that that would still kind of lessen the ambiguity a little bit. And so I like that they didn't have that happen. 00:40:30.57 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:40:33.07 Jala Leopold also uses this switch for teaching moments. So this is an emotional moment that's unrelated to Victor's instructions. So Victor's logic is still pretty flawed. 00:40:44.09 Jala Like it's, it's the switch isn't for emotional outbursts. 00:40:44.80 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:40:47.78 Jala The switch is for, you need to learn this shit because you could kill somebody if you don't know it, you know? 00:40:53.34 Moxie Right, exactly. 00:40:54.11 Jala So yeah. So yeah. Then we cut back to present day where Victor says that he was born anew that night and first saw the dark angel. And young Victor wakes up next to William and presents himself to the angel statue in his room. 00:41:09.85 Moxie So, One, this is very cool scene. ah 00:41:13.69 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:41:13.88 Moxie you know Just really, really cool. It raised a question in my mind. ah Del Toro has said that he now has like the angel statue in his living room or something. 00:41:26.42 Jala It's in, like, it's a doorway. 00:41:26.52 Moxie ah 00:41:27.86 Jala It's like, it you're right when you walk in the house, it's like right there at the door. 00:41:28.63 Moxie Yeah. But my question is, which one? like The creepy one in Victor's room or the even more creepy one that he keeps hallucinating? 00:41:33.23 Jala Right? 00:41:39.51 Jala Right, I know. I'm not sure which one he has, but he also hand-painted a lot of that statue himself because he used to work in in that. 00:41:46.22 Moxie That's really cool. 00:41:47.51 Jala So like, yeah, he was on there actually working hands-on with some of this stuff. so ah So Victor is given power over life and death by the Dark Angel, but without any specific purpose and without a payment offered by Victor in return. And this is important because of the original screenplay version. So in the original, We see Victor don his mother's gloves inside of her chambers and he swears to always protect William. That's something that doesn't happen at all. Like we, we see him with the gloves on later, but we don't get the scene where he's taking the gloves and as a memento and using those all the time. Um, 00:42:23.92 Jala you know We just see that the gloves don't really fit him very well. They're very tight on him because they're women's gloves. um He also never swears to protect William, so that's like completely out the window. Which, I mean, like that's fine because he doesn't protect William at all from anything. 00:42:37.27 Moxie yeah 00:42:39.03 Jala you know William, yeah, if anything, William is always protecting him, but we'll get there. 00:42:39.24 Moxie Nailed on that one. 00:42:44.23 Jala um In the original screenplay, his vision of the Dark Angel gives him a mission to protect himself and William from the Beast. And in exchange, he would have command over life and death, but he had to kill his father to get this power. 00:42:59.51 Jala So in the original, he murders Leopold with poison. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't like that. 00:43:06.07 Moxie Yeah, i feel like yeah i feel like it's a good call to axe that. 00:43:07.78 Jala Yeah. Take that out. 00:43:10.73 Moxie Yeah. 00:43:11.92 Jala Yeah. And so, so in the original screenplay, a quote, my downfall started soon enough. And like the divine, just like all divine justice, it was swift. So I like that line, but like, you know, they don't have the murdering, the patricide happening that the original screenplay had where he had to kill his father to to go forward. 00:43:24.44 Moxie yeah 00:43:32.59 Jala So, ah but you know, like, 00:43:33.62 Moxie Yeah, that would have dramatically changed the tone of the movie. 00:43:37.23 Jala Well, and not only that, but it would have also shifted the the allegiance that the viewer has faster. 00:43:44.15 Moxie Right. 00:43:44.53 Jala You know, like you would automatically be like, he just killed his dad in over a ah ah hypothetical that we can't prove. You know? 00:43:53.05 Moxie i mean Right, right. 00:43:53.28 Jala Hmm. You know? So back in the Arctic, the creature breaks through the ice and sets off for the ship. He's he's over like, I don't know, a mile or two away and you know he has to start back trudging through the ice and snow. 00:44:06.01 Jala And ah Leopold ends up dying and Victor and William are sent to different places. So ah we don't get told what killed Leopold. You might assume that it's old age or something because they don't say a sickness came over him or anything. 00:44:20.42 Jala late they don't They don't mention it. 00:44:21.13 Moxie Right. 00:44:21.73 Jala that He just dies. And ah so William is sent to Vienna with family and Victor goes to medical school in London, later Edinburgh, which is where we see him as an adult later on. 00:44:33.40 Jala And so then the disciplinary tribunal at the Royal College of Medicine is our next scene. Victor says, life is in God's hands, but death should be the concern of doctors as he hands his notes and drawings to the judges. And he places a voltaic battery into a slot on the table where there is something covered up with a sheet. 00:44:54.26 Jala And he talks about defeating death entirely by rebelling against the establishment. So he's setting himself up as a rebel. He's in front of these wigged judges. And so again, this is a scene that makes you like, especially with the way he's talking and how commanding his presence is, it's very charismatic and it makes you want to go like, yeah, fight the power, you know, that kind of thing. 00:45:15.51 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:45:15.94 Jala And, um, We see a man come in with golden heels and he's dressed all in blue. and He goes and sits down and he has a nice fancy cane with a naked lady on it. 00:45:27.21 Jala So this is Victor's first concert. And in the original screenplay, Victor suggests in the hearing that God needs help from mankind, his greatest creation, to amend his own mistakes. This is reworded a little later in the scene in the final version. It's still there. It's just worded differently. So we'll see that in a minute. 00:45:48.11 Jala How did you feel about just the opening part before we get to the like the fancy, you know cool, let's unveil what's on the table? 00:45:56.31 Moxie Yeah, ah I thought it was interesting. Like you said, it's a really compelling character moment. 00:46:03.26 Jala Right. 00:46:03.46 Moxie It's interesting. 00:46:09.05 Moxie I feel like one thing that I don't quite get a read on is kind of like, what is Victor's endgame, if any? 00:46:21.53 Jala Right. 00:46:21.56 Moxie Or like, I know, it's just, it feels a little weird, like, what happened before this? You know, you what mean? 00:46:28.28 Jala right 00:46:29.04 Moxie Like... 00:46:30.17 Jala Right. Well, I mean, like, so the setup here is that the tribunal is trying his research because they feel that it is unethical or whatnot ah and against God and things like that. And so it's it's against the the maxims of that day's medical science and, you know, what they find to be um acceptable practices. 00:46:56.63 Jala So that's kind of like, to me, it reads a little bit like ah in in, I say, ah our modern times, but really this was a while back, like the Kevorkian case, for example, where it's like, you know, assisted suicide, and then should that be something that doctors have the ability to do? 00:47:09.27 Moxie Sure, sure. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. 00:47:15.90 Jala And that was a whole thing. And, you know, we know how that shook out. But Anyway, so it's kind of reading to me like that, where it's like he's on the fringes of the medical society because of what he's trying to do. And, you know, like the morals are the question here. That's why God's being brought into it. 00:47:36.34 Jala You know, they're talking about the morality of what he's doing. So ah the head judge asks how Victor proposes to defeat death. And Victor unveils a half man attached to a slab of wood. 00:47:49.21 Jala He explains how the specimen is a composite of multiple corpses and he plugs in the other battery. After a moment, the body begins to move as if coming to life and you know gasping and getting some air into those lungs after not having any. 00:48:04.15 Jala And Victor explains both that there are no stitch marks with his surgical technique, his own technique, and also that the energy flow follows the Eastern notion of chi. 00:48:16.34 Jala And everyone is standing now and the judges claim he is playing cheap tricks. Victor approaches the judges. Trickery? Trickery? Are you sure? 00:48:27.32 Jala And tosses the red ball that he's been playing with, tossing into the air as he's talking. He takes that and throws it to the half man who catches it and is looking at it, you know. 00:48:38.90 Jala And he says that this action is on the part of the creature was a decision involving brain function. He asks it to release the ball, which it does. And he says, please always helps. And this is a line that comes back later in the movie. 00:48:54.11 Jala The judges call Victor's work unholy, saying that God gives life and takes it away. And Victor argues that perhaps God is inept and it is up to mankind to correct the errors free from fear and cowardly dogma. 00:49:07.21 Jala As he throws the red ball into the audience, Harlander, who is the guy in blue, catches it. He pulls one of the needles out of the body, which gasps and writhes and then falls a limp. 00:49:18.96 Jala Watching it die, Victor nods in satisfaction, takes his papers back from Professor Krimp, the head judge, and leaves. And meanwhile, everybody in the auditorium is cheering wildly. 00:49:27.04 Moxie So 00:49:31.59 Jala So that's important, actually. 00:49:35.10 Moxie so this is an interesting scene to me because 00:49:41.34 Moxie it is it's an interesting decision to me to so early in the movie establish the fact that Victor is right, that like he actually can you know create life, that sort of thing. 00:49:55.42 Moxie Because like in the book, like he has no proof of any of his theories until he creates you know the monster. 00:49:56.15 Jala Right. 00:50:02.71 Moxie ah 00:50:03.03 Jala Right. 00:50:03.74 Moxie And likewise, it's a little weird that no one's like... Dude, yeah, maybe that was like an abomination to God, but like that dude did just revolutionize medicine. 00:50:15.61 Moxie Like, you know, it's a little weird that no one's like, wait a minute. 00:50:16.63 Jala Right. 00:50:20.38 Jala Well, here's the thing. Everybody in the auditorium is like, holy crap, you did fantastic fucking work, you know, but like it's the judges, the the old order, right, with the wigs on, the professors, the stodgy old guys who are against that, which, you know, any revolution is always going to be, you know, like the younger blood versus the stodgy old people. 00:50:32.79 Moxie Right. 00:50:44.26 Jala You know, like that's just how it's going to go. So like, you know, that that tracks because everybody in the auditorium is opposite what the judges are saying. The judges are like, this is terrible. And everybody's like, yeah, ah yeah, do it, buddy. 00:50:57.78 Jala You know, and so that's that's kind of interesting. um So, yeah, and and part of the reason why this scene is in the movie is because GDT was like, 00:51:08.73 Jala realistically, before he gets to the point of assembling a full man and trying to do that, he would have experimented with something else like parts and tried to get the the whole basis. 00:51:21.82 Jala Like he's, he would have to experiment before he gets to the big show. And, uh, that's, that's why this is in here. And so it is interesting that they show it early, but at the same time, you know, people who go into Frankenstein know that he's going to be able to make a monster, you know, like it's, it's a little bit different than like, you know, when the book originally came out, it would be, you know, um, 00:51:38.42 Moxie Sure, sure, yeah, yeah. 00:51:46.78 Jala like burying the lead or whatever you want to say for, for Mary Shelley to have him successfully do smaller experiments first. Like, no, he has to just do the the one big thing and then, you know, like have that be awe inspiring and in whatever. 00:52:01.30 Jala But um yeah, so in the original screenplay, Victor stabs the half man with a scalpel and kills it. So I'm glad that here he's just taking a pin out and not violently stabbing it because that would like, again, kind of give away that no, actually Victor is a little unhinged, you know, like in other ways he's he's unhinged, like that would give it away too soon, I think. 00:52:20.96 Moxie Yep. yep 00:52:25.61 Jala um But yeah, like the the clapping people, everybody standing and had the standing ovation he receives after this, you know, flies in the face of what the judges are saying for sure. 00:52:37.88 Jala So, but he still gets expelled from the Academy at this point because, you know, the judges have the last say. So on the streets of Edinburgh, he makes his way to his lab, which is on a street with a bunch of butchers and Harlander is outside his door waiting for him. He introduces himself and produces a letter of introduction from William asking to come inside and they step over rivulets of animal blood as they enter because there's just blood running down the streets from all the butcher shops and stuff. 00:53:07.84 Jala And um as they do so, we see the lab that's cluttered with plants and glasswork, anatomical models, books, all kinds of crap. And Harlander explains that William is coming to introduce Victor to his fiancee, Elizabeth, who just happens to be Harlander's niece. 00:53:24.63 Jala She is fresh out of the convent and William, meanwhile, has made a name for himself in the world of finance. Harlander invites Victor over and says that he will change his destiny on that night. 00:53:38.17 Jala So this is the second time we see Victor drinking milk. and Count two for Victor drinking milk. And we've got a lot of different things in the original screenplay. Lots of different notes before we get there. 00:53:51.73 Jala Thoughts. What do you think? 00:53:53.84 Moxie So this scene, yeah I feel like wasn't necessarily as story impactful as the others other than just ah introducing Harlander. it is kind of entertaining that like Victor like got a house on Butcher Row. 00:54:12.54 Moxie ah you know Presumably either a because like you said ah earlier, he's like using some animal parts for his experiments, or B, because that's the place where no one complains about all the weird stuff he's doing. 00:54:13.17 Jala her 00:54:26.88 Jala Well, there's that, but also I'll tell you this about the original screenplay. On the original screenplay, he had a lot of past due notices on his door because he couldn't pay his bills. 00:54:34.20 Moxie Oh, okay. that makes 00:54:35.51 Jala So it's also the place he can afford. Yeah, 00:54:38.84 Moxie Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. 00:54:40.80 Jala right. So um yeah, he had eviction and past due notices actually on his door. And those are just kind of falling off when he comes in and he's ignoring all of them. And um so yeah, in the original screenplay, Victor and Harlander have an exchange about being artists when Harlander looks at the wax studies that he has everywhere. And Harlander walk wipes away black tincture from his forehead. So you see that something is up with him really early in the movie in the original, because there's a little something on his forehead and he wipes it off. 00:55:11.92 Jala And um Harlander also calls Elizabeth his protege in the original, which is, I'm glad took that out because Harlander and Elizabeth couldn't be more different. 00:55:23.80 Jala you know, like in terms of of their characters and how they are. 00:55:24.36 Moxie Yeah. 00:55:27.86 Jala in In the original, Victor is irritated that Harlander is there ah rather than William himself. And one of the things that's being said by Harlander is, what you showed today was determined not by your reach, but the limitations of your peers and hampered by your own exuberance. 00:55:46.61 Jala Harlander calls the meeting at his house a temptation and hands Victor the red ball before walking off. Kind of like the apple. So, you know, remember how I said that I thought that that was an apple originally? 00:55:59.65 Jala It's funny because like in the original screenplay, it was still a ball, but it was in place of an apple. Like, you know, they they had that in there originally, which is pretty cool. So. 00:56:09.85 Moxie Yeah, yeah, and that plays in with the whole, you know, Garden of Eden, creating the first man, you know, all that stuff. 00:56:10.17 Jala Uh-huh. 00:56:15.93 Moxie That's cool. 00:56:16.26 Jala Yeah, and straight up the temptation that the Heartlander says he's offering. 00:56:19.45 Moxie Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, with the snake. 00:56:20.40 Jala So, you know, with with the knowledge that is is gained, you know, and and that's exactly what's happening there, which is very cool. So I don't know if I like or dislike that being, you know, not being in there or whatever, but like, you know, it's interesting to note either way. 00:56:33.91 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:56:36.61 Jala So ah this this lab scene, yes, it introduces Harlander and sets up like all the other things that are about to happen, but it also shows a messy lab with layers of stuff everywhere and shows you know like that Victor is so obsessed that like he's got a messy work environment with piles of things and places and stuff. 00:56:56.13 Jala You know, like he doesn't pay attention to the blood or the screams down the street from the butcher shops and all these other different things. Like none of that matters to him, just his research. 00:57:06.30 Jala And, you know, like there's just piles of things everywhere. it's It's very lived in and layered and complicated space. And it looks basically like a reflection of his brain, you know, to me. 00:57:16.76 Moxie Right. 00:57:18.84 Jala And in the original screenplay, the next scene is actually Elizabeth and the convent. And this is a deleted scene that is confirmed by Guillermo del Toro that will be in the physical release. In fact, he recently said that there would be a whole different version of the film, which includes a lot of extra scenes for the people who really wanted like more of what he was doing. So I don't know what all he's going to be putting in there, but the physical release will be worth looking at because there will be a lot more to it. 00:57:52.61 Jala So ah in that original scene, Elizabeth is in the convent and praying and looking at the Jesus statue, but she's also like horned out for the Jesus statue. Let's just put it that way in the most succinct way possible because Catholic Jesus statues are pretty, you know, ah revealing of the the male body and everything. And like that's part of a whole thing that the GDT has talked about multiple times on various interviews about, you know, like the the eroticism of of the presentation of Jesus on the cross in Catholic like iconography. So um that's part of what's happening there. And like that that scene in the convent from the original screenplay, which was shot 00:58:40.44 Jala and will be in the physical release ah kind of ties in why Elizabeth is like, she doesn't bat an eyelash about the creature being several different dead people because he, he's basically the Jesus surrogate. And she immediately makes that, you know, like makes that connection and is like, 00:58:59.63 Jala you know, like that, that's immediately there for her. So, um, you know, and it's pretty obvious it's immediately there for everyone because, you know, the, the, uh, table upon which the creature is built and then comes to life turns into a goddamn cross. 00:59:14.42 Jala Like it's a cross. 00:59:15.32 Moxie Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:59:15.55 Jala It's pretty obvious, you know, like the the imagery is right there. 00:59:17.30 Moxie It's it's not subtle. 00:59:19.46 Jala He's wearing basically the loincloth that Jesus has on the crucifix. So, I mean, you know, it's all there. 00:59:23.76 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:59:25.61 Jala Anyway, we cut to Victor going to Harlander's. Then we see a memento mori with a woman posing in sheer drapery holding a peach. And Harlander is behind the camera and asks her to turn the peach and we see that she has bitten it. 00:59:39.73 Jala And he fusses at her while she says... I was hungry, Kiki. Don't call me that. And then Victor shows up. And this scene was completely improv'd because like in the original, like it's it's more serious. 00:59:54.84 Jala Like that doesn't happen at all. And I feel like that that was added in because, you know, Christopher Walls was just having a fun time and they they decided they were going to, you know, throw that crap in there. No. 01:00:04.60 Moxie Yeah, I guess it does. The only thing I can see, because the scene doesn't seem to add much to the movie, the only thing I can see is just some foreshadowing of like his condition, you know showing that he's you know maybe a bit of a womanizer. 01:00:12.28 Jala No. 01:00:21.34 Jala Uh-huh. Yeah, it does. It absolutely does. Because she's got this kind of obvious relationship by the nickname and the way that they're talking to each other. The fact that she's just naked other than some sheer fabric. And, you know, like he taps her butt on the way out and all that mess. Like it's all like showing, you know, more, more to. 01:00:40.46 Jala his interactions. So the girl and the servant leave and then the men look through Victor's notes and they discuss the energy flow and the corpses as a servant brings Victor a glass of milk third time. 01:00:54.65 Jala So, In the original screenplay, the exchange about eating the memento mori peach is completely missing. I told you, i think that's improv. um Harlander also noted Victor's preference of drink. 01:01:07.32 Jala Victor raises his glass in gratitude. Like in the original screenplay, um Harlander offers Victor sherry, which he declines and then offers milk. 01:01:17.34 Jala I remembered, but in this version, like he already knew to bring milk and had milk, didn't even offer sherry. 01:01:21.73 Moxie Sure. 01:01:23.30 Jala And the two have some real gay vibes going. I just have to say that. In the movie, they do. 01:01:27.75 Moxie Mm-hmm. 01:01:28.65 Jala They have so many, like, the power dynamic is really, like, it's there. And and the vibes are there for me. I ship them for sure. Because, you know, there's there's a little details like Harlander remembering that he likes the milk and bringing him the milk and everything is like, you know, this little token. 01:01:46.61 Jala And it's it's a lot. So ah then Harlander reveals that he was a surgeon in the military, but has since made his fortune as an arms merchant. 01:01:57.59 Jala So like right away, we know that Harlander is out for himself because he used to be a surgeon. He says he wasn't really good at it. And then he turned into selling implements of war that hurt and kill people. 01:02:11.98 Jala and not caring, you know? So like, it's pretty obvious that like, he wasn't a good surgeon and I bet he didn't have a very good bedside manner. Let's just put it that way. 01:02:20.57 Moxie Yeah. yeah 01:02:21.19 Jala um 01:02:21.78 Moxie Probably not. 01:02:23.01 Jala Yeah, so he asked Victor if he knows about the Evelyn tables, and in fact, he does. So, sidebar, let's talk about the Evelyn tables for a second. They're a set of four anatomical preparations, thought to be the oldest in Europe. Each displays a different part of the human body, arteries, nerves, and veins. These were dissected from a human specimen and glued to a wooden board. 01:02:47.55 Jala In the movie, there is a fifth table showcasing the lymphatic system and is used by Muslim medical men. This secret fifth table is what aids Victor in discovering how to provide perpetual energy. 01:03:01.42 Jala So, Evelyn Tables, real. Fifth table, fake. 01:03:05.85 Moxie So this is, and this kind of gets into some of the other stuff, but this was something else that I noticed watching again. One of my strictly personal criticisms of the film initially, and I want emphasize this is just like, it does didn't happen to cater to me. 01:03:27.03 Moxie is i really like the fact that in the original um oh Frankenstein, like, a big thing is that Victor is combining both science and the occult. 01:03:42.10 Moxie And i initially, when I watched it, perceived them as having em omitted that. Watching it again, like, when he's in the trial, he specifically mentions that, like, he's using the principles of qi. 01:03:47.89 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:03:57.30 Moxie And now there's this like weird, like lost, you know tablet and, ah you know, it's used by, you know, those mysterious Muslim, you know, doctors and like, like, see it again, like, no, they totally incorporate, like, Victor is definitely using the occult, at least to a degree in his experiments, you 01:03:57.61 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:04:03.73 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:04:20.86 Jala Right. It's not all strictly accepted Western medical practice that he's in, you know, ah using in this experimentation, especially since he's using animal parts, because that would be absolutely against medical science at that time. 01:04:27.34 Moxie Right. 01:04:37.51 Jala I mean, like these days, yes, we do grow, you know, like ah use animal parts for things in transplants in certain situations and in whatever, like there are that, and we do animal trials and and stuff like that. 01:04:49.38 Jala But like, back then that wouldn't have been acceptable. So, 01:04:53.24 Moxie Yeah, you you definitely, if you made that decision in Frostpunk, you'd get like negative 10 to morale. 01:05:01.34 Jala Good, good translation over to a video game. So, yeah. 01:05:03.96 Moxie Yeah. 01:05:05.17 Jala So Harlander tells Victor there's a fifth Evelyn table, the lymphatic system, and he calls it the secret circulatory system. He shows it to him and explains that the ninth configuration around the heart can distribute and store energy and could possibly be channeled to power the body potentially infinitely higher. 01:05:25.13 Jala Harlander offers Victor unlimited resources in his pursuit and does not state what he wants in return, saying that he merely wants to record it for posterity. Victor says he will consider it as they are called to dinner. 01:05:39.44 Jala And then Harlander says, Baron, don't pretend to be reasonable now. It would be such a shame. 01:05:48.38 Jala So in the original screenplay, the riddle of the Sphinx artwork is in the background where Harlander is offering unlimited resources to Victor. So it's very cool. 01:05:57.99 Moxie surprised they removed that. 01:05:59.69 Jala Yeah, I don't know if it might still be on the wall, but i I looked, I was watching during that scene to see if I could see it on the wall, but I didn't. 01:06:04.80 Moxie Mm-hmm. 01:06:06.07 Jala So I mean, like that doesn't necessarily mean it's not there. It just means maybe it's like a little corner of a thing and I don't know. But Victor, anyway, meets with grown up William, who introduces Elizabeth. And she is over at the Memento Mori. And our first shot of her as she turns is of her considering the human skull in her hands. So here's our first Hamlet moment where she's considering the skull and she touches the skull gently and holds it to her chest as Victor approaches. 01:06:36.76 Jala So kind of like, you know, by holding that instead of dropping it down or, you know, setting it back on the table or keeping it up high, she holds it close to her chest, which, you know, like that also tells a little something about her character too, that she's very gentle gentle with even this skull of something that's not even alive anymore. And, um, 01:06:59.13 Jala Anyway, Victor says, oh, enchanted, I'm sure, whatever. And then they they introduce each other. And then they move on to dinner. And at dinner, William confirms that Victor was expelled from the academy and says it was uncalled for, I'm sure. And Victor corrects him, saying, no, it was called for. I earned it. 01:07:17.51 Jala ah Which... 01:07:18.82 Moxie I actually kind of like that line. That's kind of badass. 01:07:21.98 Jala It's ah like it shows so much of both of their personalities, really, like William trying to be Mama. Right. And then Victor being like, oh, no, no, I'm a rebel buddy. 01:07:30.87 Moxie and here 01:07:35.38 Jala No. You know, I absolutely. 01:07:36.26 Moxie I'm a rebel, Dottie. 01:07:37.55 Jala Yeah. So ah William asks Victor why he provoked them and you know why didn't you just continue on with your research and not get all involved with all this mess and make a spectacle out of yourself? 01:07:51.65 Jala And Victor chides him and says, how safe, as he's eating his cake so he's got his mouth full and he's how safe. even by your standards, William. 01:08:01.82 Jala And then says, you know, ah William is very much like their father who was always so safe. Ooh, you know, like, like ah trying to shame William in front of his fiance, which is real shitty. 01:08:13.36 Moxie So, yeah, I feel like this scene's a little weird. Like, I feel like this is one of those things where, like, film doesn't always have to, like, perfectly make sense with how people interact. Because, like, if ah I'm pretty sure it establishes that since they were separated in childhood, this is the first time Victor and William have met. 01:08:35.35 Moxie And so, like, one, like, yeah, william the way William treats Victor is actually a little weird. 01:08:35.81 Jala in a while, right? 01:08:41.09 Moxie Just the fact that, like... he doesn't seem at all surprised at like what you got expelled. Like he's just completely cool with it. And on the other hand, like even for Victor, it's kind of out of character for him to just be straight up an asshole after not seeing his brother for years. 01:09:01.72 Jala i I get the feeling that they probably have seen each other off and on, but not, like, frequently. You know, like, I i feel... 01:09:08.92 Moxie Yeah, that could be, that would make more sense. 01:09:09.35 Jala Because he... Because ah he says to William, like when they first meet up, he's like, oh my, how you've grown, you know, because like it's probably been several years, but it's not been like since he was a toddler. 01:09:22.61 Jala It's been, you know, and and I'm sure that they probably had intense correspondence as well. 01:09:23.19 Moxie Oh, okay. 01:09:28.72 Jala So they probably kept up with what each other were doing because William knows what Victor's up to, you know. 01:09:34.85 Moxie Sure. 01:09:35.69 Jala So, ah so yeah, Victor then continues after he bashes on William, he continues on from there and says, he personally doesn't even understand modesty. 01:09:46.77 Jala If life can be regenerated, why whisper it? And then Elizabeth scoffs and laughs. She's just, ha, ha. you know, and, uh, that catches Victor's attention. He turns with the stare and his little face twitches a little bit. And he has a little hint of a smile because she's shown more chutzpah than her, his brother has because his brother won't stand up like that. 01:10:12.93 Jala And Elizabeth's already like, no, you know? 01:10:17.50 Moxie Oh, yeah, they they they have big, like, dom-sub energy, oh Elizabeth and William. 01:10:17.59 Jala And, uh, 01:10:22.90 Moxie or ah Yeah, yeah. 01:10:24.56 Jala Yeah, yeah. And so so Elizabeth is just like, huh. And then Victor's like, ooh, really? Hey, what's up? Who dare? Who dare? You know? And so he asks if his words amused her. And she responds diffidently, i must be, yes. 01:10:42.61 Jala You certainly expressed them loud enough. You know, like she just commenced verbal takedown. She's ah already there it goes. We're starting with a verbal takedown. 01:10:51.86 Moxie Yup. yup 01:10:52.93 Jala So at this point, you know, Elizabeth says ideas by themselves are not worthwhile. And she mentions the war. And immediately, immediately Harlander gets up and suggests that William join him for cigars and brandy in his study as he is slash they are. 01:11:10.10 Jala sick of hearing Elizabeth talk about this. So they leave to the other room because she's lectured them both about this subject before. Now, i don't think that i don't think that William necessarily would have gotten up otherwise. 01:11:23.64 Jala Harlander absolutely doesn't want to have any part of this because he's obviously you know funding the war you know or or encouraging the war by selling arms and he's making a profit off of everyone dying. 01:11:26.47 Moxie Yeah. 01:11:34.56 Jala So Elizabeth clearly has talked to Harlander a lot about this and he's not having any of it. So he's like, uh, let's go. So after they they leave, then Victor's like, okay, tell me, tell me all about it then. 01:11:48.56 Jala And he has this like snotty way of of responding to her, like expecting her as a woman to just have something bullshit to say, right? So Elizabeth then explains that ideas like honor, country, and valor are worthwhile by themselves, but men are dying for them in a decidedly unelevated way, while the people perpetuating the war continue to live off the turmoil. 01:11:57.38 Moxie Yep. 01:12:12.94 Jala That is what happens when ideas are pursued by fools, she says. And you think me a fool, he asks. Run to your brandy and cigars. The boys are waiting. 01:12:25.92 Moxie And then Victor's like, jokes on you, I only drink milk. 01:12:25.97 Jala She dismisses. She fucking. but Right. Right. Exactly. 01:12:30.87 Moxie ah 01:12:31.47 Jala He's like, I don't drink. I don't drink brandy. Actually, you know, mama's boy drinks milk, but boy, she dismisses him. 01:12:39.19 Moxie Yeah, this is... 01:12:42.81 Jala o that's so good. But yes, this is a direct critique of her uncle's business and she's soft so spoken, but tough as nails. Uh, and, She's also incredibly compassionate for people who are below her station, which is notable because, you know, she's upper class. All of them are upper class. They're barons and they're people who have fancy houses and gold boots and shit, you know. so Um, 01:13:08.27 Jala So this is way more notable than her having compassion for other people with titles and money and land. So she's already like a very sympathetic you know character, but also somebody that you're automatically rooting for because she just punked him so hard, you know, and like sent all of the other men running. 01:13:21.09 Moxie Yeah. Yep. Yep. 01:13:26.64 Jala Like they all left. They all ran away. They're like, oh God, she's on it again. Let's get out of here. You know, so that's very cool. Very cool opening scene for her. Very powerful, especially since that first moment when we see her has this delicate, gentle. 01:13:42.10 Jala Oh, oh, oh. as she's turning with her pretty dress and everything. And, you know, she's not really talking. She just nods her head. And so like at that moment, we don't know what to think about her offhand. 01:13:54.97 Jala And then she immediately, like the the next moment when she's talking, we we get a very clear message about who she is. So back. 01:14:03.13 Moxie And it's funny because, like, 01:14:04.31 Jala Yeah. 01:14:07.16 Moxie I know, I just love that, like, and none of it's out of line because Victor just straight up, like, was just insulting her fiancé. 01:14:11.01 Jala No. 01:14:16.02 Jala Uh-huh, right, exactly. And, you know, like she is 100%, you know, he asked for sprinkles! You know, like she's yeah she's that one. 01:14:22.90 Moxie Yes, exactly, 100%. 01:14:26.18 Jala Right. 01:14:26.20 Moxie That is exactly what I was thinking, totally. 01:14:29.14 Jala Right. so So back in the Arctic, Victor talks about how the game of chess we play is only against ourselves right before he coughs up blood and is given more medicine. So let's get him more high. Sounds like a plan. Yeah. 01:14:43.97 Jala And ah the men are screaming outside, so the captain goes to check what's going on. And the watchman saw the creature, and the men are terrified, and they want to return home. They keep on saying, we want to go back home. We don't want to be out here. Let's go, please. There's a screaming man. you know He's unstoppable. 01:15:00.92 Moxie i like that I like that the creature has apparently attended the Michael Myers school of creatureing. 01:15:01.43 Jala He kills people. 01:15:10.06 Jala Right, right. 01:15:10.23 Moxie you know you just You can never go faster than walk. It's quite important. 01:15:15.73 Jala Right, right. Because he doesn't. He's just, he looms at people. 01:15:18.42 Moxie Yeah, he's just... 01:15:19.22 Jala He looms at people. That's what it is. 01:15:21.21 Moxie Yep. 01:15:22.10 Jala So, ah yeah. So the men are screaming and they're they're wanting to go home. And then the captain insists that they will continue as it is. And that Victor is under his and the crown's protection. So he's like, it ain't just me. You also have to listen to your government. 01:15:39.81 Jala Dang it, you know, like trying to appeal to their their loyalty to their country. 01:15:40.11 Moxie right. 01:15:44.64 Jala So we flash back to Victor, William, and Harlander as they find the perfect place to build the lab, the massive water tower on the cliff. I could feel destiny calling, says Victor. 01:15:57.76 Jala So there's a shoot in this thing from the top to the bottom. This is Chekhov's shoot. We're going to come back to that. And ah Harlander says that he will give Victor whatever he wants and says that he has secured William's assistance for the duration of the project. So Victor starts rattling off equipment that he needs and William is frantically making a list. 01:16:19.05 Jala Harlander says, I take it we have an understanding. And they shake hands. A bargain has been struck. So we cut from here to a public hanging where Victor, now in fancier outfit, covers his mouth and nose delicately with a hanky as he checks over the condemned men, picking one with a strong back from the lot before they are killed. And we see Victor's red gloves in this scene. I think this is the first time we see them. 01:16:46.59 Jala So as he walks, uh-huh. 01:16:46.93 Moxie This is, oh, this is, I don't think, intentional, but I think it's funny. His whole, like, oh, you're lucky to be hanged, like, you'd be dead within whatever. 01:16:59.84 Jala Yeah. 01:16:59.86 Moxie ah In one of the recent, well, one the recent, probably, like, five years by now, one of the doctors on Doctor Who has an almost identical line, and it's funny seeing it in that played as like a quirky, funny line. And in this played as like, wow, Victor's an asshole. 01:17:19.81 Jala Right. Exactly. So as he's walking away, it begins to rain and he spies Elizabeth in the market following her red umbrella among the sea of black umbrellas. So remember, red is the color that follows Victor everywhere throughout the movie. It is the color that symbolizes his mom. So... 01:17:39.06 Jala yeah Does it make sense for him to follow the red umbrella through the sea of black umbrellas? Yeah. So she ends up going to a church and heads to the confessional, but is told to come back later. So she disappears further into the church. 01:17:52.02 Jala And meanwhile, Victor is skulking behind a pillar. Not creepy at all. Anyway, he's curious about what she might confess to. And like the way that he says it at that time where he's like, what she might confess. Like the way he says confess sounds like really creepy and weird. I don't know like what it is about the way he says it, but it's a creepy line. 01:18:11.73 Moxie Oh, this whole scene is super creepy. like 01:18:14.47 Jala Oh, it's it's creepy, but it's also really funny at the same time. 01:18:17.30 Moxie yes 01:18:17.55 Jala So when everybody leaves the confessional, he sneaks into the priest's side. And then Elizabeth, a few moments later, enters the other side. And so he's playing the role of the old priest. 01:18:29.43 Jala And, you know, she's she's on the other side. And so she says, oh, it was a sin of intent, not deed. a man, is it? Yes, my fiancé's brother. Lust. 01:18:41.81 Jala Hatred. Hatred? The man is appalling, grotesque. Victor then tisks and says that she's being harsh and uncharitable, so she keeps going on. 01:18:53.43 Jala He tries to control everyone and everything around him. Like every tyrant, he delights in playing the victim. Like she is not pulling any punches at all. And while it's really hilarious, I don't think that she has seen enough of him to have ah this sort of a grasp on his character. 01:19:09.98 Jala He didn't delight in playing the victim during the dinner scene, even if she can see how manipulative he is. like so So I don't know that it's necessarily warranted, but it's hilarious. 01:19:17.97 Moxie Right. 01:19:21.60 Jala So... 01:19:23.18 Moxie Yeah, it's really good. 01:19:26.24 Jala In the original screenplay, the VO for Victor in the church was not present at all. And also Elizabeth has Victor help her light votives for William's safety in this scene as well. And that was taken out. Like a lot of stuff related to William ends up cut out of the movie, sadly, because no justice for William. We'll just say that. 01:19:48.98 Moxie Yep, yep. 01:19:50.56 Jala But then she, anyway, she continues on and she says that his one virtue is that he's far cruder than he believes himself to be and says that he's easy to spot. 01:19:57.10 Moxie Yeah, 01:19:59.94 Jala And the jig is up at this point and ah he opens the partition to see her grinning and waving at him. So... 01:20:06.62 Moxie yeah and she says she saw him before he saw her, which suggests that the whole reason you know she she got in there was she knew he was being dumb. 01:20:11.15 Jala Uh-huh. 01:20:17.61 Jala Yep. Yep. So then we cut to them at dinner and Victor tries to guess what books she's purchased at the market, imagining them to be romance novels drenched in Mediterranean sun and sweat or something like that. 01:20:32.34 Jala And, uh, 01:20:32.73 Moxie Which is very strange for someone, ah a very strange guess when you know she just got out of a convent. 01:20:39.97 Jala convent, right? Like, for real. And she expects this of him and says that it's really insulting. He's being very insulting. What she ended up picking out, though, were books on entomology. And fun fact, those are actually GDT's books off of his shelf that he he has. So Anyway, she says that she's fascinated by life, always searching for something more pure and marvelous. And he asks if that's what she was seeking in the convent and whether it was worth it. 01:21:08.89 Jala And she replies, is anything? He invites her to dance and she says it isn't appropriate. And then he tosses out is anything back at her. And then she's like, all right, fine. And then they move to the dance floor and she starts to laugh as they twirl. Now, 01:21:29.09 Jala I've got lots of extra notes about the original screenplay and everything here. But one thing I want to point out about the scene that we get in the movie is that when Victor and Elizabeth meet up and go to the restaurant, their first exchange here is indicative of their characters as well as their sexual appetites. Because Elizabeth says she's not very hungry and Victor says he's famished. 01:21:52.89 Jala And it's real like obvious like you know how that translates into their behaviors with each other as well. So... 01:22:02.33 Moxie Yeah, yeah, that is an interesting angle. why I didn't consider that. 01:22:07.14 Jala yeah 01:22:07.17 Moxie I'd be interested here, so something I wasn't sure of is you know, I'm someone who was assigned male at birth, and 01:22:20.63 Moxie i wondered to what degree, you know, as someone assigned female at birth, do you think she was somewhat obligated to dance with him in, in that, you know, you know, in that, you know, obviously in this time period, like he probably could have caused a lot of trouble for if she had, you like, you know, snubbed him that sort of thing. 01:22:43.03 Moxie Like what, I guess, what was your read on this thing? 01:22:43.77 Jala well 01:22:45.83 Moxie Does that make sense? 01:22:47.02 Jala About the dancing. um 01:22:48.57 Moxie Yeah. Like, I guess what I'm saying is it almost felt a little bit blackmail-y, but I couldn't tell if I was reading into that. 01:22:49.65 Jala So she. 01:22:54.05 Jala right Right. Well, I mean, at that particular moment, he's like, you know, she's like, oh, I don't think that it's appropriate for us to go dance. And he's like, is anything? Well, they've already had, um like, spent some time dicking around together, you know, and then also eating this meal together, notably without William. 01:23:16.22 Jala And, you know, like... That's pretty notable for the 1850s when this is taking place or or whatnot. 01:23:22.33 Moxie That is true. That is true. 01:23:23.89 Jala So, I mean, like, they're already in a kind of questionable situation. And it it doesn't read to me like he would go to William and start telling William something. 01:23:34.06 Jala But at the same time, like, she's already said, I don't really want to do that. And he's like... nah, we've already gone this far, let's keep going. 01:23:42.71 Moxie Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 01:23:43.72 Jala you know And then she she agrees against her better judgment. So that that's how it it reads to me. But there's a little bit more to it in the original screenplay, let me tell you about it. So Victor and Elizabeth have an exchange about whether she likes him or not. That's in the original screenplay, they flat out talk about that. 01:24:03.27 Jala And also Elizabeth elaborates on the circumstances forcing women into the convent life, being ugly, poor, barren. And Victor says she doesn't have to worry about that. And she replies, beauty is but a circumstance and thus it carries no merit. Simply another way in which the world renders one invisible, a pedestal or a dungeon, lonely places, both. Shortly before my father's death, I went into the convent in pursuit of a little education. I desired access to their library and was tired of scandal. 01:24:35.47 Jala Her father would only approve her education if she were in the convent, and that's why she entered the convent. She wanted to learn and grow and and see more things, and that's why she was there, because she didn't have access to books otherwise, because women weren't taught in that era. 01:24:50.59 Jala And also in the original screenplay, after Victor and she talk about the books she bought, there you insult me yet again or your words lack precision. If I were a man, you would describe me as inquisitive, incisive, sharp, or some word to that effect. 01:25:05.14 Jala But being a female, you choose the more quaint, curious, so tame you think me. So, you know, like there's a lot more back and forth and there's a lot more about the context of women in this era. 01:25:16.13 Moxie Sure. 01:25:19.48 Jala And also there's an exchange while dancing. Victor says that he is not a good dancer and Elizabeth says that she can help if he allows her to lead. She says that it's usually the part the man plays, but she is the natural talent for it. And Victor says that it would be his privilege to surrender. 01:25:37.39 Jala And that the above is more gender stuff. Like that's, that's more, more gender stuff right there. Like, you know, i know I wish that that part, that scene, like even if they didn't put the whole convent scene, you know, talking about like, you know, cause Elizabeth is showing again, like she's aware of the plights of common people, not just her own class. 01:25:43.31 Moxie Yeah, that's an interesting one. like that yeah 01:26:03.14 Jala And, you know, like Victor's like, you don't have to worry about any of that. And she's like, being beautiful and rich doesn't have any merit to it. Like that doesn't, that doesn't mean shit, you know, like she's just, and and I like that. 01:26:17.52 Jala And, and the fact that she points out, no, you say, oh, well this is, you know, curious or whatever, like that, that's insulting because if I were a guy, you wouldn't be talking about me like that. 01:26:30.22 Jala you know, and then from there, you know, letting her lead, take the lead in this dance. And, you know, like all of that is, is very good stuff. So I wish, uh-huh. 01:26:40.60 Moxie So I do... I do feel like I can see why it was removed though, because, um you know, kind of gender roles aren't, you know, kind of a core theme of the movie. 01:26:47.52 Jala Right. 01:26:53.76 Jala Right. 01:26:53.94 Moxie They're more, uh, they, they more, yeah, are a subtext and something that like gives us an idea of how Victor sees and interacts with the world. 01:26:56.02 Jala A subtext. 01:26:59.22 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:27:03.99 Moxie So I can understand cutting them down to like, just what is necessary to kind of inform Victor's character. 01:27:04.60 Jala Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 01:27:11.52 Jala m 01:27:12.02 Moxie Although I agree, like a lot of these would, ah yeah, I do kind of wish it'd been left to him. 01:27:17.85 Jala Right. Well, i mean, the thing is, is that it'll shift the focus from Victor as your lead to Elizabeth as your lead. 01:27:24.95 Moxie Right, exactly. 01:27:25.44 Jala And it's kind of the same thing with William, where like adding in all the different parts about William changes his role from being a a secondary character to a more primary role. 01:27:37.81 Jala And he's not meant to play that part. Now, Elizabeth is a main character, but the iteration that we have in the movie is more hints at the stuff that was cut out rather than directly showing her character quite as much, you know? 01:27:41.11 Moxie Right. 01:27:43.93 Moxie Sure. 01:27:55.31 Jala So... So yeah, ah we go from here into a whole montage of time passing. We have Victor working in his lab examining vertebrae on a wax model. Victor at the silversmiths dismissing the work of the craftsman because it's not pure silver and he leaves William to handle things because he trusts him more than anyone else as he gallivants around with his brother's wife-to-be. In the original screenplay at the silversmith, Harlander decides to stay in the carriage and he drinks a vial of mercury. So again, in the original screenplay, there's more showing that there's something wrong with him. And also Victor argues with the silversmith and says pure silver prevents sepsis and one with alloy has garbage. And they took that line out. They just said, no, it's it's not good because it's not pure silver. They don't they don't tell you why though. 01:28:42.41 Moxie I think he he actually says that it's a perfect conductor. 01:28:42.47 Jala So... 01:28:48.80 Jala Yeah, as a conductor is what he says. You're correct about that. 01:28:52.34 Moxie Sorry. 01:28:53.97 Jala So ah then other things where time is passing, Victor and Elizabeth are at the park as Elizabeth captures a butterfly and places it in a kill jar. 01:29:00.42 Moxie Sorry. 01:29:04.55 Jala And William is in the lab making sure everything is correct. And Victor visits the lab sketching, working on the corpse he has on his table at the lab and, you know, is is looking at all the the parts on the exposed spine, trying to figure out how to trigger that ninth configuration. 01:29:22.72 Jala So, 01:29:22.87 Moxie so So I actually really like this scene um for what it shows about William's character, in particular showing the fact that, like, no, William actually is a very talented ah individual who's, you know, very competent at, you know, organizing things. 01:29:45.72 Moxie you know, construction, you know, all these sorts of things, which I like. One, because, like, Victor or William kind of just gets kicked around in this story, so it's nice to see some positive stuff. 01:29:56.64 Jala he does. Yeah. 01:29:59.00 Moxie Two, I feel like it shows a lot of... um Oh, Victor's kind of worldview, because he is completely oblivious to how much like the success of this project depends on William's work. 01:30:10.68 Jala and Right. 01:30:15.60 Jala Right. 01:30:15.77 Moxie And also, I feel like it kind of shows something that i feel like is a little weird in the story, which is like, why would Elizabeth ever be interested in William? Yeah. 01:30:26.65 Moxie And I feel like that kind of shows how like, oh, in when he is in his element, like he could conceivably be someone that she would find intellectually, you know, interesting and compelling. 01:30:40.22 Jala Well, and not only that, but he's such a generally supportive and loving person that, like, he accepts her as she is. 01:30:44.95 Moxie Yes. Yeah. 01:30:49.77 Jala It would be like you never see him and her interacting ah by themselves, really, except for, like, very short scenes that really hinge around Victor. 01:30:56.34 Moxie Right. 01:30:59.39 Jala um So you don't get a reason why they're together. But, like... I would assume part of it would be because he's such a warm and loving person and, you know, is just kind of accepts Victor where he's at, would accept Elizabeth as she is with her interest, doesn't have a problem, you know, with any of that and lets her be herself. 01:31:10.01 Moxie Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 01:31:19.77 Jala And, you know, that acceptance and that kind of warmth and love would be what I think draws her to him because he's a safe person. You know, he's everybody's safe space in this. 01:31:31.97 Jala Everybody's safe space. 01:31:32.92 Moxie okay 01:31:33.35 Jala So, you know, that that's what I think about that. 01:31:35.42 Moxie Yeah, that's, that's, I think that's why I come down on this story is the creature and Victor or William should just been like, screw you off We're going. 01:31:46.22 Jala Right, right. So, but William definitely, like during this scene, he also says, I personally did all of the the work on this table, like this drafting table, because i kept on fucking it up. 01:31:57.47 Jala So I did this and I made sure it was exact. Like he tells that to Victor as well. 01:32:01.08 Moxie Right. 01:32:02.47 Jala And he's taking pride in his work and Victor is 100% ignoring it and going, uh-huh. All right. Yeah, it looks good. And and like, that's it. that like very dismissive and like William, um, one part of William that was talked about in interviews and stuff, but not really like, especially underlined in the movie is the fact that William craves Victor's acceptance and approval. 01:32:10.81 Moxie Yeah. 01:32:24.98 Moxie Oh, yeah. 01:32:25.89 Jala And like, it's there, but he never says it and he never gets it. He never gets it either. Poor William never gets anything that he needs. So yeah. 01:32:36.72 Jala So yeah. ah From there, we cut to a party at Harlander's where Elizabeth finishes playing piano and Victor smiles at her, brushing his hand across her exposed shoulders as he passes. And Harlander notices and follows Victor to the bathroom. This is like the biggest like gay power scene in the entire thing for me where I'm like, wow, they they are they they are ah a couple. They are or a couple for me anyway, but like he tells Victor that he hopes he is not distracting Victor from his research and says that Elizabeth can count on us to guard her. And when Victor is about to leave to allow Harlander his privacy so he can go to the bathroom, Harlander stops him and or you know in order to throw his weight around. He's like, no, no, no, no no need for such such whatever divisiveness or whatever between us. And so Victor's got his back, you know, 01:33:28.72 Jala and So he doesn't isn't staring at him going to the bathroom. And so when Harlander is going to the bathroom, he's like, French porcelain chimes to a man's stream like this line is. 01:33:39.80 Moxie So i i will I will say, like, that is the one thing I will give Harlander. Like, I respect the stupidity or and, like, the whatever, the hedonism of being like, nah, I want some resonant toilets. 01:33:58.14 Moxie Like, all right, if it's... 01:33:58.81 Jala right like Right, right. 01:34:01.53 Moxie I get so frustrated with like the Elon Musk's the world. It's like, you're so bad at being evil, rich people, at least be entertaining in your like evil access. 01:34:13.06 Jala I mean, like, French porcelain chimes to a man's stream. And... 01:34:17.53 Moxie That is, i' am surprised that there there are a number of lines and this is one of them that I'm surprised have not become memes. 01:34:26.35 Jala Well, and the thing is, is that like this line, this particular line, this is nothing directly at Victor, but it's at Victor. It's a hundred percent at Victor. 01:34:35.00 Moxie Oh yeah. 01:34:35.77 Jala Like, you know, and it again, it's it's innocuous and over there on its own. But like when you have it in context of the movie, it just carries so much weight that it's just, it's it's fantastic. 01:34:49.35 Jala So yeah. Anyway, Victor says that he's close to to finding, you know, the secret of the ninth configuration. And then Harlander's like, oh, yeah, that, you know. and gets irritated sounding. And he's telling him that his money is not infinite and the war will be over soon. A battle will take place in a week and Victor can use those corpses, but he needs to be ready to go or history will pass them by. 01:35:15.64 Jala And he tells Victor to flush the toilet for him as he walks out, which that's ah such a power move. Like here, clean up my piss. Wow. You know, but like, 01:35:27.73 Jala there's more to this scene where they're going back and forth and Victor's like, I need more time than that. What do you mean a week? And he's like, no, you don't have time. I thought you said your resources are infinite. My patience is not, you know, and the, 01:35:39.77 Moxie Also a pretty good line. 01:35:41.76 Jala Right. And like, you know, that in this scene, it seems like just like a power move and and just him pushing his weight around and and trying to, you know, being displeased with Victor because Victor is fucking around with Elizabeth. But um at the same time, there's urgency there that, you know, we don't have the reason for in the movie that we got yet because we don't know that he's sick yet. 01:36:06.43 Jala So then we cut to Victor in his lab and Elizabeth knocks on the door and has arrived with the butterfly saying that the butterfly missed him. And he warns her about the bodies all over his place. You know, oh but i've I've been working, Elizabeth. And she doesn't care. She's like, okay, oh yeah, they look like martyrdom paintings. And she looks at the flayed back of the the creature that's on the table and is like, yeah, you can see God's symmetry here. God's symmetry. 01:36:40.43 Jala And that's important. 01:36:40.44 Moxie And if I remember correctly, that that corpse on the table is like very explicitly like identical to a famous painting of like A Martyr. I forget the details. but 01:36:53.93 Jala Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't know that offhand, but mm-hmm. 01:36:55.06 Moxie but yeah i I could be wrong, but i want to say like that sp that is very specifically like something she is recognizing. 01:37:03.22 Jala A martyrdom painting, right. Right, cool. Well, I mean, I know that for the creature's design, his design was inspired both by, um you know, like the one artist that we talked about last time, but also by the sculpture St. 01:37:21.73 Jala Bartholomew Flayed, where you have like no skin on him and it's all of that. 01:37:24.22 Moxie Oh, that's actually the saying I'm thinking of, yeah 01:37:26.64 Jala Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So St. Bartholomew Flayed is, um you know, like a reference point for the creature and essentially all of the creatures that Victor is creating because they all look very similar. 01:37:37.77 Jala They all have the same kind of look to them. So, um, 01:37:40.50 Moxie yeah. Yeah, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. 01:37:42.72 Jala Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if also there was another martyrdom painting that looks exactly like the one on the table. Like, that feels like a GDT move to take a painting, lift it, and put it on the table and make it a real thing. 01:37:53.53 Moxie Yeah. 01:37:56.39 Jala um So Victor then confesses his interest to her as she's like, yeah, look, it's God's symmetry. And she's smiling as she looks at the corpse. And then he's like, 01:38:07.84 Jala i think i love you you know, like, over the corpse. So he he says specifically, i have a belief in the Marvelous and so do you. There is a bond between us. Can you feel it? An almost physical one. I truly believe it to be something else. Like, and the way he's talking about it in the movie really sounds 100% like a guy who has never been sexually awakened until this moment. Like, he doesn't seem like he's had a relationship or had a love interest before. Like he's been so obsessed since he was little with the idea of conquering death that he's been in his research and nowhere else. Right. 01:38:44.93 Jala You know, so. 01:38:45.40 Moxie though The one thing I do feel sorry for Victor is like, he is probably right that Elizabeth is probably about the only woman that could like empathize with his whole like mission my life. 01:38:57.35 Jala Right. 01:38:59.10 Moxie Like he is kind of right about like that, even though like, obviously he's a creeper. 01:39:02.38 Jala huh. 01:39:06.19 Jala Yeah, well, I mean, like, there's the whole, kind you know, complicated issue of, oh, right, this is my brother's fiance. 01:39:14.36 Moxie Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. 01:39:14.72 Jala Like, all right, guy, know, but like, you know, yeah, in and of himself, he's like, oh, my God, I found the one, but the one, you like, it's, so when GDT says that this is telenovela shit, he's not kidding. 01:39:16.40 Moxie Like, yeah, yeah. 01:39:29.76 Jala This is telenovela shit right here. You know, ah but she shuts him down. 01:39:33.22 Moxie Yep. 01:39:33.98 Jala She shuts him down. So ah she says so so she she says, believing in something doesn't make it true. And he asks her why she's there and moves in to kiss her, but she dodges and then crouches next to the kill jar, talking about the butterfly, but her description also goes for her as well. beautiful is she not remote, entirely bewitching, but so odd. 01:39:57.31 Jala And, you know, goes off a little bit more about like actual butterfly things, white blood or whatever. And then, and a fascinating lack of choice. And that's how she describes the butterfly who she says is female. I don't know. 01:40:11.31 Jala um And then that's also, of course, talking about her. And so, um of course, Victor's like, I don't know what, what are you talking about? You He's like, what are you talking about? And then she says, choice is the seed of the soul, the one gift that God granted us. Standing, she hands him the kill jar, says that she's chosen, and runs away with Victor calling after her. 01:40:36.10 Jala And in the original screenplay, Victor's Love Confession, ah he in in that moment, he flat out says that he loves Elizabeth in the original version. He doesn't dance around it. He says, no, I love you. And Elizabeth expounds more on her decision and why she's making it. So... um This part reads far better like in the original screenplay than in the movie, which omits her discussion of evil and virtue as being intrinsic to the act of choice. They basically abbreviate the scene a lot in the movie. 01:41:09.91 Jala Like you get the idea of it, but it's not it's not as clear. 01:41:15.67 Moxie Yeah, I'm trying to think. I want to say that the whole, like, humans having choice thing, I think is, like, in certain, ah like, Western esoteric slash theology slash occult, like, belief systems, that's, like, explicitly a belief. 01:41:36.97 Jala o 01:41:37.11 Moxie um is that, like, that's what makes humans fundamentally different than animals or something. So this might actually be a reference to, like, very specific philosophy, but that's not my area of expertise. 01:41:49.23 Jala o Awesome. Awesome. Cool. So from here, we skip to fan service of Victor's naked body. ah but and So we see Victor in the bath. 01:41:59.22 Moxie it is so we It is so weird how, like, 01:42:01.52 Jala Yeah. 01:42:05.30 Moxie Victor in this is kind of a loser, but also weirdly kind of a sex symbol. 01:42:12.31 Jala I know, he is. He's both things at the same time. 01:42:13.38 Moxie It's like easy he's the only sex symbol that, if you look at the narrative, like probably dies as a virgin. 01:42:14.72 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:42:22.46 Moxie Yeah. 01:42:23.18 Jala Right. yeah For sure. He did he does. So, uh, yeah, we get to this bath and then he's laying in the bath. And so here's, here's something funny that I have to say. So I've never seen any Oscar Isaac and anything else before this movie. 01:42:36.35 Jala So I was watching this movie and I, I was looking at his facial features and I'm like, I think he's got something else in him. That's not white, but I had no idea what he was. 01:42:43.86 Moxie Oh. 01:42:44.61 Jala And so, so then like, he's actually Cuban and Guatemalan, I think it is. And, um, so anyway, like I was looking at him and I was looking at his nose and And like, I think he's something that's not quite white. 01:42:56.02 Jala But I don't know what he is, whatever. But then like when we get to this scene, I was like, them are some Hispanic nipples. I'm like, oh, he's his, I turned to Dave at this point and I'm like, he's Latino. 01:43:02.55 Moxie never 01:43:11.27 Jala That was, I just had to share that because it's a very silly, yeah. 01:43:14.02 Moxie That's hilarious. 01:43:16.06 Jala ah So anyway, so he jumps out of the shower, not of the shower, out of the bath. he's He's laying in the bath. He's thinking everything is over. He covers his face with a wash towel, and then suddenly he thinks, God, symmetry! he He jumps out, Eureka! you know And then he moves to the mirror to look at his back. 01:43:31.64 Jala I don't know why he needs to do this when he's done countless studies and made anatomical figures and all of this shit, but you know for the purpose of giving you extra fan service, we get the look of his back all wet and shiny while he's touching all of his muscles. and then he then runs over to the exposed back of the corpse and sticks two pins in and brings it to life automatically, and just immediately. And he has found the key. 01:43:54.98 Jala And then, you know, like he he's, you know, leaning back as the thing is is screaming as it comes to life. And like, we get a little bit of the Victor Bush for a second, you know, but like the the bits is, ah you know, like hidden a little bit, but like you get the bush anyway and the happy trail. 01:44:11.19 Moxie So that is, this is most... 01:44:11.64 Jala And then, and And he grabs he he grabs the the um battery and then pulls it out and then the thing dies. And then and things calm down. but 01:44:23.77 Moxie I wonder where what those batteries got to. Those are such cool props. 01:44:27.85 Jala I know, i know. Well, you were going to say, though, about like Victor's bush and happy trail and his ass that we get to see and every every other bit except for the dangly bits. Yeah. 01:44:37.18 Moxie Yeah, well, I was going to say, actually, with it coming alive, it's interesting to me, just because this is, again, like, I was trying to think, maybe the only, ah like, jump scare in the entire movie that I can think of. 01:44:51.58 Moxie Like, maybe there's a part with the wolves or something, but um but yeah, no. 01:44:52.56 Jala Yeah. 01:44:55.30 Jala No, this is the only one that would be jump scary. 01:44:58.52 Moxie Yeah, yeah, but yeah, no, it is it is so really good scene. i'm So I'm trying to remember, was it... There is some scene around here where he has another vision of the angel. 01:45:12.27 Jala Angel. 01:45:12.70 Moxie I think it is something else. 01:45:14.68 Jala ah That, ah but it's in my notes when we get there. um I think it's, yeah, it's a little bit later on from here. 01:45:18.01 Moxie Okay, it's later on. Okay, okay. 01:45:21.76 Jala He hasn't seen the angel again yet. I think the the part you're talking about is when he's created the creature and William is talking to him and then he sees the angel again. But we'll we'll get there, we'll get there. 01:45:30.68 Moxie Oh, that might be it. That might be it. 01:45:32.26 Jala So, um but yeah, like, so what's funny about this scene is that like, 01:45:32.32 Moxie Okay, okay. 01:45:37.31 Jala Yes, was I appreciating the naked flesh when I was in the the theater? Yes. But like, I then when I was looking up stuff about Frankenstein later saw um some some gay man posting about the movie saying, Yeah, i watched it for the plot. And then, you know, there's lots of screenshots of this where, you know, it's just showing naked Victor everywhere. like Yeah, for the plot. Uh huh. 01:46:01.31 Jala Yeah. So it's it's very funny. So anyway, ah moving right along. after After we get the salacious victor everywhere, um then we cut to a frozen battlefield, which is extremely surreal. It's got like waving flags still and everything, but then there's like a frozen horse and rider like in mid, you know, rearing up and and stuff like that with crazy icicles everywhere. Like it's very, and you know, surreal and everything, but that that that suits GDT's style. 01:46:32.38 Moxie So some of these ah sets make me wonder if Del Toro plays video games at all, because I feel like the Battlefield and the um the Arctic both just kind of have that sort of feel of like... 01:46:40.02 Jala Yeah. 01:46:51.99 Moxie very much, you know, like having set, almost set pieces in the design and like interesting lighting. I don't know. It's just something I wondered. 01:46:59.85 Jala Right. Oh yeah, for sure. for sure. and um so at this point we have piles of bodies everywhere and there's several guys walking around on the battlefield, picking through. Victor is marking bodies to haul off to his lab and telling Harlander, who's having a cigar and the sitting down somewhere that he's favoring tall specimens as it makes the work easier at a larger scale. And then Harlander's sure. Why not? 01:47:26.48 Jala You know, why not do that? 01:47:27.06 Moxie this is This is one of the points where like Harlander is objectively a horrible person, but I kind of like his chutzpah. 01:47:37.18 Jala Right. 01:47:37.46 Moxie I kind kind of like that he's just the dude who's so like nihilistic and like that he's just like, nah, smoke a cigarette in the middle of a battlefield. 01:47:37.51 Jala I mean, 01:47:49.56 Jala Yeah, we're just going to take a load off and chill and he's looking fancy and dapper as fuck is about like he's about to go about town and everything. 01:47:49.69 Moxie Or whatever cigar. 01:47:56.77 Jala And yeah, so like Victor is also instructing all the other people who are there helping um to look for specimens that haven't been frostbitten. 01:47:57.36 Moxie Yep. 01:48:05.47 Jala Look in the middle of the piles of bodies because they're least likely to be fucked up from that. You know, try to find anything that's intact that I can use and all of that. So we cut to his lab where the bodies are laid out and they're laid out in the bottom of the chamber, um you know, with a bunch of ice packed around them, like hot giant blocks of ice that get imported from whoever wherever they they get the ice from and they're they're all laid out. in what would eventually become the creature's cell. And um then they are moved up into the lab where the waltz begins. And then we have the lovely scene of body horror where you've got the whimsical montage of Victor sawing body parts and and putting together all of these different things you know while Harlander is just taking photographs of the whole thing. And, you know, he's he's dragging body parts down to dump into the river. ah And then he's, you know, got blood all over the floor. He's pushing blocks of ice all over over the place. 01:49:10.64 Jala And yeah, there's pools of blood, blocks of ice, bags of body parts, ah lots of various corpses, lots of sawing going on. 01:49:21.15 Jala And I know that these are all fake bodies, but... 01:49:21.94 Moxie Yep. 01:49:24.65 Jala boy is it a lot like you know I'm I don't generally get squeamish about things but I'm like oh I don't I'm not really a big fan of some of this yeah 01:49:32.31 Moxie Yeah, sometimes 01:49:36.31 Moxie ah sometimes I watch some of this I'm like, Del Toro, how are you such a sweet guy like when you're not making movies? 01:49:41.85 Jala ah 01:49:44.51 Moxie Oh, yeah. 01:49:44.93 Jala Well, and the part of the thing, too, is that like some of these bodies are really, really super rubbery and bouncy. So it's like, you you know that it's it's very much not real people. But like, you know, um but like, boy, it's just the idea of it is is pretty rough rough. 01:49:54.26 Moxie Oh, yeah, yeah. 01:50:01.10 Jala Because like, you know, uh-huh. 01:50:01.43 Moxie really like I really like his cleanup scene where he's just kind picking stuff up and, like, chucking it down the chute and stuff. 01:50:10.43 Jala Yeah, he's just throwing body parts down into the river, you know, who cares about what happens then, you know, it's it's not my tower anymore. I don't care, you know. But um so, so yeah, that whole scene is just pretty wild um because it's so whimsical because for him, the body part, he's so used to the body parts at this point that it's nothing to him. He's just, you know, exuberant and excited and able to put his, you know, final creature together and finally destroy death. He's real excited about that. But like, you know, it's a celebration for him. It's his magnum opus. But for us, we're just like, 01:50:48.81 Jala Oh, we're seeing like the horror of what that actually entails, you know? 01:50:52.63 Moxie So something I wondered here is there is kind of in fiction, and I won't be surprised if in real life, but definitely in fiction, this kind of um motif or whatever of like a surgeon working while listening to classical music. 01:51:08.12 Moxie And so I almost ah think you could interpret this as maybe being a little bit of saying like, hey, maybe we aren't always as different from Victor as we think. 01:51:20.50 Moxie You know, things that in his time seemed crazy, you we now do all the time. 01:51:21.77 Jala ooho 01:51:27.61 Moxie You know, stuff like that. 01:51:27.85 Jala right oh right right and you know like um victor is definitely made very personable in this movie for the reason of making him identifiable to people um and the the fun thing about this movie is that for the first half of the movie at least for part of the time during victor's tale you identify at least in part with victor 01:51:36.61 Moxie Mm-hmm. 01:51:50.61 Jala at least in part for some of it. And then in the second half, you identify at least in part with the creature. So, you know, like um it's kind of shifting your perspective as the movie goes. 01:52:03.10 Jala And that's part of what the whole like um point, the end point is about is about that switch. 01:52:10.90 Moxie Right. 01:52:11.68 Jala So. 01:52:12.18 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 01:52:14.06 Jala Yeah, so a storm kicks up just as he ends up finishing the body. And so he rushes to prepare to, you know, bring it to life. And the creature is spread to standing, looking very much like Jesus. 01:52:26.84 Jala So like he uses this little crank and then, you know, like the whole table goes up and then, you know as the table goes up, his arms go out. And um so the creature, while it's on the table, when it's going to get shocked by the lightning to bring it to life, has this massive metal rib cage thing over his chest and also has bandages all over his face and eyes and nose and mouth and everything. 01:52:49.59 Jala And then also has like this massive, you know, like bondage looking, you know, metal mask thing on too, which is, it also looks like something that could have been in Resident Evil 4, like one of the people in the, know, like the Garadors or something, you know. 01:53:03.45 Moxie ahead 01:53:04.39 Jala And so like, there's a lot of stuff going on there. And of course, you know, he's got the little loincloth wrapping on and everything. So, you know, also very, very crucifixion like. 01:53:15.18 Jala So. 01:53:15.41 Moxie Well, something I wondered, his his little like, um 01:53:22.36 Moxie his little like kind of rib cage, metal rib cage thing. he it 01:53:28.43 Jala hmm. 01:53:28.57 Moxie I think that might be intended. It's real common on crucifixes to show Jesus as super, super emaciated where like he has a rib cage and then like his stomach's shrunken. 01:53:37.77 Jala Right, right. Yeah. 01:53:42.17 Moxie So I wonder if that might've been intending to give some of that look. 01:53:42.72 Jala Yeah. 01:53:46.48 Jala Right. Oh yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. So, um, so the creature is spread out looking like Jesus. Victor is running around looking for Harlander, calling for Harlander, finds him in his room and Harlander asks Victor to fetch, fetch mercury from the handle of his cane. And Victor asks if he's ill. And we are then treated to Harlander without his wig looking very sick indeed. and he has syphilis. One night with Venus, a lifetime with Mercury. Isn't that the phrase? 01:54:19.60 Jala And he tells Victor, really the audience, about what happens when you have syphilis. Because of course Victor knows, you know. So how it spreads throughout the body and will eventually kill him painfully. One day I will wake up screaming and we'll never stop. 01:54:35.02 Jala And he asks to have his brain put inside the body that Victor has just made. And Victor says he can't. There's no time. Your brain is polluted. There's no way. You know, the sickness is spread all through you. You know, it's infected everything. You know, because you're a surgeon. You know, I can't. I can't do that. 01:54:53.68 Jala And he runs off to the lab. So Victor then climbs to the top of the spire to affix the lightning rod, climbing back down to find Harlander offering him everything, including Elizabeth. 01:55:05.88 Jala I'll give you anything you want, including Elizabeth, as if Elizabeth is a thing that he can just give, you know, uh, 01:55:12.76 Moxie I mean, the sad thing is that this time he probably could have. 01:55:14.61 Jala Yeah, right. 01:55:15.76 Moxie Like... 01:55:16.06 Jala Exactly. So ah Victor repeats that he can't because Harlander's brain is already polluted. It's already got the the ick and it's not going to get any better. And, you know, honestly, he's trying to do Harlander a solid because if Harlander were in this body and had syphilis brain and then he would continually... 01:55:35.77 Jala keep having syphilis and keep healing just enough to live and keep having syphilis and keep healing just enough to live. That would be like, and then he can't die. Like that's actually the worst way that things could pan out. But you know, anyway, Harlander is not listening. He grabs the other silver spike, dangling it over the chute leading straight to the bottom of the tower. And he says, I will be the eagle that feasts on your liver. He says this as a reference to Can you contain your fire, Prometheus? he He's talking about that. So this is a reference to the Prometheus legend. And they struggle, and both the Silver Rod and Harlander fall into the pit. And ah Victor tries to hold on to Harlander, but cannot. And Harlander falls to his gruesome death, and his head cracks open like an egg, and all of his brains go everywhere. 01:56:28.97 Jala So in the original screenplay, Harlander's... 01:56:31.38 Moxie I mean, i i just imagined like ah victor's ah Victor's version of events in his ah in his ah diary. 01:56:32.69 Jala huh 01:56:41.34 Moxie Today I cured Harlander's syphilis. 01:56:44.55 Jala right? So, because he would, of course, try to make it out to his best advantage. um So in the original screenplay, Harlander's fight with Victor shows him to be far stronger of an opponent than what we have in the actual film. This suits him better, builds up the danger, and also mirrors Elizabeth's formidable personality. So ah in that fight, he's he's verbally tangling better with Victor in seeming more of a threat and doing stuff that seems, you know, like ah far, far more precarious of a situation than than what we actually get here. 01:57:22.72 Jala So in either case, Victor runs down and grabs the now bent rod. And as lightning strikes, the damaged rod shatters, making a repeat of the experiment impossible. 01:57:34.47 Jala He checks on the body for a heartbeat, but there is none. So he gets mad and he starts beating his fist on it. And again, this body that's on the table is a ah full size replica of Jacob Elordi. They didn't want to have him chained to a table for the entire time they're shooting this and having ah you know Oscar Isaac beating on actually Jacob Elordi. So like that's ah that's a fake body. You can tell because it's rubbery when he's hitting it. But anyway, just wanted to put that out there. 01:58:04.40 Jala Anyway, he's devastated, so he pulls his shirt off and falls into his bed, telling the angel that it lied to him. Here's the the next angel scene is here. We then hear his mother calling him Victor. And then he wakes up to see the creature standing at the foot of the bed, mimicking his movements. So like he does get ah ah like the fires in his vision and he sees the angel for a second. And I think this is the part where the angel tears off his face and you see the skull. 01:58:33.43 Jala um I don't know if it's here or if it's a little bit later. 01:58:34.02 Moxie Was that, I think it's, that's, I think it might be, I don't know. 01:58:36.35 Jala I thought it was here, though. 01:58:39.84 Jala It might be. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see when we get there. 01:58:43.12 Moxie I will say one thing here is this is very much a scene that, from the book, like in the book, it's very much like he initially thinks it fails and goes to sleep. 01:58:56.26 Jala Yes. 01:58:57.69 Moxie ah 01:58:58.03 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:58:59.19 Moxie And so that was interesting. And I think that's like a really solid way to handle this kind of thing. 01:59:06.14 Jala Right. Well, and the thing is, is that like um GDT wanted to make sure to do this scene because the scene of Victor waking up after thinking that he failed and then seeing the creature there at his bedside, ah that is not something that you see in other Frankenstein media. 01:59:23.43 Jala It doesn't usually get shown. 01:59:24.06 Moxie Sure. 01:59:26.06 Jala And he wanted to show it. And so here it's a moment of joy. Right. And so we see the creature and the creature seems very foreign because his face is all wrapped up and he doesn't really know what he's doing. And he's just mimicking what Victor's doing and, you know, is very big and lanky and, you know, pale and purpley and gray. um But Victor is overjoyed. And this is a dramatic change from the book because in the book, he wakes up, sees the creature there and then runs screaming from his apartment and doesn't come back until he brings his buddy and like forgets that the creature is in the apartment and is is like, oh, oh, crap, I brought my buddy back. Anyway, ah listen to the episode with Dave Jackson if you want to hear about that. um 02:00:15.01 Jala So, so anyway, here, this is, this is a different change. This is, this is joyous. is happy. He's like, Oh my God, you're real. You're alive. And you know at one point, Victor puts his ear to the creature's chest to listen to his breathing and his heartbeat. And it's just like, you know, um, 02:00:30.93 Jala it It really seeming like a father who is, you know, like enjoying in the experience of this life that he has created. Like, oh my God, you know, instead of ah a little tiny baby, we have a massive hulking, you know, 02:00:46.89 Jala corpse creature instead, but like it's the same kind of feeling here. So Victor opens the shutters on the window and then the creature freaks out because of the light and and the warmth and Victor reassures him the sun is life and warmth and they both spread their arms wide to the sun. Again, mimicking this whole Christ-like pose with ah opening their arms up, but it's also something that is brought up way at the end of the movie. So, you know put a pin in that. 02:01:14.02 Jala So ah yeah, he introduces himself, Victor does, to the creature and says, Victor, Victor, and then the creature mimics him and does the same thing and touches his chest and says, Victor. 02:01:25.93 Jala And then he says, yes, yes, of course you are. So when the question of what is the Victor's name come comes up, like I always am like, well, he already just said his name is Victor and then Victor said, yeah, you are. 02:01:37.89 Jala of course you're Victor, sure, why not? 02:01:38.64 Moxie Sure. Next. 02:01:40.18 Jala I thought that his name is Victor, but like everybody else says no, because later in the movie, the creature says I should be your Adam. Then instead, everybody thinks that his name and on the set, they also called him Adam. 02:01:52.10 Jala So, you know, but anyway, that's neither here nor there. What do you, what do you think about the rest of the scene and how it plays out here as, as opposed to the book or whatever? I mean, just the fact that we get this scene. 02:02:04.82 Moxie Yeah, I mean, this is where the movie kind I'm not saying this as a criticism, but this is where the movie, like, majorly diverges from the book. um And, yeah, I i think this is probably the most tragic scene overall, because, like, this this is the point in the book where, like, the story could have gone a completely different way, like, 02:02:22.53 Jala Mm 02:02:30.02 Jala hmm. 02:02:30.74 Moxie if you know Victor had accepted his creation, that sort of thing. And likewise, it's also, in my opinion, very tragic because like 02:02:43.83 Moxie you can tell that Victor doesn't know what he's doing. And it kind of feels like, it feels more like, less like Victor overtly, 02:02:48.02 Jala All right. 02:02:55.22 Moxie overtly 02:02:58.30 Moxie a bad father because he's evil so much as is he's a bad father because he has no idea what to do. Just, you know, just like the fact that, you know, later on, he's just like, why am I getting any sleep? 02:03:11.99 Moxie It's like, because that's what happens when you have a baby is you don't get any sleep because you have to take care of it. 02:03:15.69 Jala right 02:03:17.43 Moxie And so like, you you know what mean? Like, it's really tragic that it's like, oh, in another universe where like Victor had any clue what was going on, this could have gone different. 02:03:28.77 Jala Well, yes and no, and I say that because the next scene we get with Victor and the creature is pretty unfortunate. so um First we cut to Elizabeth and William as Elizabeth is in examining a bug and looking at a book laid out in front of her. And she suggests that they visit Harlander and Victor. 02:03:50.47 Jala And so, you know, like that's just to set up what's to come. Then we cut to the bottom of the tower when we get back to Victor and the creature and, um, So he changed the creature up. And like, so like at first when he's like, yes, this is water, this is sun, this is, and he's joyously telling the creature all of these things and leading him along. And like, it seems like it's this great, nice moment until he pulls out the shackles and starts chaining the creature to like this slab down at the bottom of the tower, you know, and just leaves him there. 02:04:23.64 Jala And like, he does give him a blanket to stay warm, but he leaves him there and the creature doesn't know what's going on. 02:04:28.03 Moxie Right. 02:04:30.73 Jala And, you know, doesn't realize how fucked up it is. And Victor does not realize how fucked up it is that he is basically taking his baby and chaining it in a cell, you know? 02:04:39.69 Moxie And chaining them up. Yeah, totally. Totally. 02:04:42.61 Jala And so, yeah. Also, in the original screenplay at this point, the creature drinks some of the water that's dripping down from the tower, and then he also diverts some of the water onto a plant to give it water as well. So it's he's showing compassion even for a plant in the original. 02:05:00.89 Jala um But yeah, Victor at this point finds himself deeply, deeply depressed, having no idea what to do now that he has a new life on his hands. And having reached the ends of the earth, there was no horizon left, is what he says. 02:05:15.47 Jala He doesn't know what to do because the whole point and purpose of what he was doing was to defeat death and and bring life you know bring life into the world from a different means other than procreation. And he has, but now he doesn't know what to do. 02:05:29.56 Jala And so he gets super depressed. So... 02:05:33.72 Moxie Yep. 02:05:34.89 Jala yeah So we cut to present day Arctic where Victor and the captain are talking about how the captain shares his madness because, you know, he's like, oh you know, like we we have to go to the North Pole and we're stuck in the ice and this, that and the other. But we're going to continue it at any cost. And then Victor's like, you share my madness. There must be a reason, you know, there maybe there's more virtue in me telling your, you know, telling my tale to you then, you know. 02:06:01.18 Jala And then the captain's like, well, regardless of whether there's any virtue in it, I want to hear it. So keep telling me whatever. It's fine. So then we cut to the tower where Victor is shaving the creature who's very interested in his own reflection. And Victor is impatient with the creature's lack of comprehension and development. So he fusses about how he hasn't gotten any sleep, like you said, and he's spending all his time tending to the creature. 02:06:26.64 Jala God, to why am I a parent now? Like, maybe because you brought life into the world? I don't know. like So anyway, at this point, the creature grabs the straight razor and squeezes it in his hand, injuring himself. 02:06:40.27 Jala And Victor yells at him and degrades him and ah bats the creature's hand away angrily when the creature reaches out saying, don't touch me. Don't ever touch me. And, you know, horrible. 02:06:50.67 Moxie That's tough. That's a tough scene. 02:06:52.90 Jala It's horrible. Mm-hmm. 02:06:53.78 Moxie Yeah, that is. 02:06:56.26 Jala it's It's the worst. Like, you know, this this this is essentially your very large man-child baby. Like, you know, and you are are, you know, denying him the love and comfort that a new life needs in order to, you know, be properly nurtured. 02:07:09.02 Moxie Yeah. 02:07:11.34 Jala So the wound in the creature's hand, though, closes up and the creature grows really angry at the yelling and all of the fussing. And Victor calms him down, but then takes him back to the holding cell, chaining him back up again. 02:07:24.18 Jala He's frustrated. He's mad. And the creature shies away from him when he starts yelling, which makes Victor even angrier. He's like, why are you trying to hide from me? 02:07:34.30 Jala i made you. I'm not going to hurt you. Blah, blah, blah. 02:07:37.37 Moxie okay 02:07:37.77 Jala You know, ah in the original screenplay, Victor explains that the creature's hair and nails grow rapidly and he has to exhaustively shave and trim them so he can monitor the scars. 02:07:50.35 Jala So, because he's trying to see about the growth, the the regeneration, and the healing of all the different sutures of of where he mended people together to make this creature. 02:08:01.76 Jala So... 02:08:02.41 Moxie Mm-hmm. 02:08:04.10 Jala So that's a detail that we're missing. But we move on to William and Elizabeth showing up. And he looks, he being Victor, looks crazy. And he grabs Elizabeth's hand and rushes her in to show her his work. 02:08:17.56 Jala And starting with his papers and everything, starts going up the stairs. And she stops him and says, hey, where is Harlander? And Victor says, oh, he's away on business. And he grabs William and rushes off with him. 02:08:30.64 Jala But Elizabeth hears the creature just groaning somewhere in the the depths of the basement. And so she goes to investigate. In the holding cell, she approaches the creature and takes off her veil and one of her gloves to show him that she's human. 02:08:46.19 Jala And he examines her hands and slides the other lace glove off slowly in a tender, sweet and sensual scene. And you can see that Elizabeth's chest is rising and falling really noticeably. Like, i don't know, you know, it it seems more noticeable there than it does in other places. Like she's taking big breaths when she's, 02:09:03.85 Jala you know, breathing in this moment here. And so like, this is one of the scenes where a lot of people like in, in the first time I watched it, I didn't read it as being very sensual necessarily. It just seemed like wonderment and, you know, this mutual discovery and seeing each other for the first time. But then a lot of people were talking about, no, this is a really sensual scene. And even the actors, um, 02:09:31.52 Jala both, um you know, Mia Goth and Jacob Elordi said, no, it ended up being like this kind of sexy scene, but we, we weren't trying to go for that originally. But, you know, cause like that, that pulling off of the, the lacy glove or whatever is very burlesque style, you know, like teasing or something, but. 02:09:50.54 Moxie So I think potentially it could be read as, you know, she, you know, very obvious she looks at his hand and then, you know, looks at the injury eye side. 02:09:59.10 Jala Right. Right. 02:10:02.88 Jala u 02:10:02.94 Moxie I think it's possible that could be, know, a reference to like the Apostle Thomas, where he basically says like, hey, I'll only believe that Jesus resurrected if I can see the nail holes in his hands and feel into his side. 02:10:08.97 Jala oh 02:10:15.43 Jala Right. 02:10:17.05 Moxie So that, again, might ah could be another kind of allusion to ah his Christ figure. 02:10:17.23 Jala Right. Probably. 02:10:24.18 Jala Right. Well, especially since she stretches out the creature's arms and then touches his chest and his sides and finds the wound there and says, who hurt you? 02:10:33.34 Moxie Yeah, exactly, exactly. 02:10:34.06 Jala You know, and so, you know, like at that point, too, when this this, ah you know, dominant woman is like, who hurt you? It's like, uo ah ah oh, Uh-oh, you better get out of out of her way. 02:10:43.89 Moxie Okay. 02:10:47.90 Jala She's going to come for Victor. Ooh, ooh, waiting for the next scene now. You know, but... um Yeah, in the original screenplay, this meeting is a lot shorter and it doesn't have the kind of tenderness that this scene does in the movie. So like, I like that they made this a little bit longer of a scene and gave it again, kind of like how you mentioned more, more Christlike imagery and everything where it's more like um Jesus and one of the apostles than it is, you know, like, 02:11:19.43 Jala ah ah a sexy per se scene. you know Although like it's interesting to me because even though you know the creature is definitely shaped like a man, you know is made up of men, and he's naked, like you know she's seen so many marty moderatehood martyrdom paintings and stuff that And you've been staring at that sexy Jesus cross for so long that she's just like, no, I'm comfortable with this. 02:11:22.26 Moxie Yeah. 02:11:44.81 Jala But then she's like touching up on his chest and touching up on her on his sides and everything. He doesn't have a problem doing any of that stuff, you know, like which, again, kind of shows more of her character of being more dominant and not going to be, you know, shying away like, oh, you know, like delicate femme, you know. 02:12:02.26 Moxie So this is something I wondered, I messaged you guys while i was watching again. Like, I almost wonder if Elizabeth is could be interpreted as being kind of ah coded as being on spectrum. 02:12:16.60 Moxie ah You know, just in terms of, like, she seems to have, you know, you know obsess you know, kind of ah special interest with insects and anatomy. Her, like, the fact that she has no problem with immediately telling Victor exactly how she feels about him. 02:12:27.06 Jala huho 02:12:35.98 Moxie and then 02:12:36.06 Jala Right. 02:12:36.89 Moxie And then there's just a number of these scenes where it feels like her interaction is not like her reaction to things is not what people would most people would have so I I kind of wonder if maybe again this could be me reading into it but if maybe there's some of that aspect to her personality 02:12:48.81 Jala Yeah. 02:12:57.56 Jala Right. And I haven't read or watched anything where it's been brought up like that she might be neurodivergent of any any stripe. But, you know, like some of the things that she does are definitely, you know, um coded in that kind of a way. Like, why did she enter the convent? She entered the convent so she could read books about stuff and and do her learning and and follow her interests and things like that. um You know, not for religious reasons, per se. and things like that. So, you know, I mean, like there's, there's various things and she doesn't seem as much as she is considerate of others and empathetic. She also doesn't seem to me to be particularly like, um, 02:13:44.26 Jala super touchy, you know, kind of passionate, like, let me give you a hug. 02:13:46.52 Moxie Yeah. 02:13:49.61 Jala Like, she's not that kind of mushy gushy person, you know, like, ah the the touch is more more um ah pointedly used, I guess. 02:13:53.75 Moxie Yeah, in this... this 02:14:00.02 Moxie Yeah, and this might be kind of, yeah, me really into it, but yeah, like, in the scene where she's playing the piano, it almost feels like she's clearly completely at ease, like, being, you know, playing the piano and um yo effectively you effectively, know, having everyone watching that sort of thing. 02:14:20.73 Moxie But like, as soon as she's done, who body language kind suggests like she's not super comfortable with then like being in a party without something to do. 02:14:21.06 Jala Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 02:14:31.32 Moxie And again, that could just be me reading into it, you know, that sort of thing. But 02:14:36.60 Jala I mean, like, it's something to consider for sure. So um from there, we cut to Victor and William talking, and William tells Victor that he has an invitation to the Royal Society, something that Victor has always wanted, which William secured for him. 02:14:39.52 Moxie yeah. Yeah. 02:14:52.64 Jala And Victor immediately dashes this aside and says, it's much too soon. He's not ready. And so William is is completely crushed. Like, you see his face fall completely at this point because he's like... 02:15:05.68 Jala I thought I was doing you a solid. This is a thing you've always wanted and you dismiss me again. oh my God. But in the original screenplay, William is very, very tender with Victor and he's like a lot more um like loving. a lot of his, his um way of talking to Victor is is a lot more loving and and ah kind of motherly than you get here. 02:15:27.97 Jala But then Elizabeth rushes in asking about the man downstairs and is in a panic. And Victor acknowledges him there, but then pointedly refers to the creature as it directly thereafter. 02:15:40.39 Jala And Victor takes both of them down to see the creature, talking about how strong he is, how the heat healing factor is remarkable but erratic. And Elizabeth asks why he's chained there. And Victor says it's for his own safety and because it's easier to clean and maintain it that way. 02:15:57.90 Jala And as Victor and William talk, Elizabeth crouches down across the water channel away from the creature who gives her glove back to her because he had pulled it off and had still had it in his hand. And William asks Victor if the creature is intelligent, but Victor doesn't reply. Is it intelligent? Yes. 02:16:16.60 Jala Victor, is it intelligent? And there's just silence. And then we cut to bedtime when William is tucking Victor in. He's tucking Victor in! His older brother! Come on He's mom! Anyway, and then asking whether he ever stopped to consider what part of this man that he created holds his soul. 02:16:37.82 Jala And Victor admitted that he never thought about that. And Victor asks, what animates the creature then? You know, what animates it if he doesn't have a soul, you know? So then we cut to Elizabeth in a sheer nightgown, grabbing a candelabra and head head heading down to see the creature. 02:16:48.23 Moxie Mm-hmm. 02:16:55.10 Jala And In the original screenplay, this scene is again very, very Christ and disciple-like the way that they set it up. like They underline that aspect of it a lot more. In the movie, the scenes between the two of them are less Christ and disciple and more of like the the kind of budding romance feeling, you know like the the seeing each of each other as like equals. 02:17:19.10 Jala and everything, it's it's a little bit different here where it's not, it's not putting the creature up on like this otherworldly pedestal. It's putting them in the same space as recognizing each other as kindred spirits more, I feel, in what we get. 02:17:31.69 Moxie Right. 02:17:33.91 Jala So the creature places a leaf in the water channel and follows it as it floats downstream into the chute that heads outside. And then he goes back again to pick up another leaf and do it again because he has nothing else to do down there but play with leaves in the water. And then Elizabeth comes in and then he sees her and he rushes over to the extent of his chains and has to stop because, you know, the chains rattle behind him. And she sits with him on one of the stone slats asking whether the injury he has hurts him. And the creature gives her a leaf and she holds it up to the candlelight to show all the veins in the leaf, saying that it's beautiful. A leaf for me? 02:18:11.58 Jala Thank you. And this is a scene that everybody has drawn and referenced a hundred times. She introduces herself and shows him that her throat makes sounds by taking his plant his hand and placing it against her neck. 02:18:25.43 Jala And this is the exact halfway point of the film, by the way. This part right here. 02:18:30.10 Moxie It's also, I think, pro likely an illusion to the fact that in most both in the book and in most adaptations, ah like strangling someone by grabbing their neck is the most common way that the creature kills someone. 02:18:45.53 Jala Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, it is. Except here, he's very gentle and sweet because he's being shown love and compassion. 02:18:50.49 Moxie Yes, exactly. 02:18:53.97 Jala And it's also pretty, you know, like it's not only is it trusting for Elizabeth to allow him to touch her neck, but it's also a real sense, you know, like... um sensual in this point. 02:19:04.90 Jala Like this definitely reads as sensual because like that's a sensitive part of your body and to let, you know, let the creature just touch it, you know, here, you know, and then speak my name and everything like that. 02:19:05.23 Moxie Yes. 02:19:17.10 Jala Like it's real, real sexy, you know. So, yeah, there's a line in the book where the creature says that if anyone human had been truly kind and loving to him, then he would extend compassion to the entire race. 02:19:29.02 Jala And that's something that happens in this movie with Elizabeth starting really in this scene. And she's kind to him right at the beginning when she first meets him. And he's not hateful and aggressive towards other humans as a result unless they attack him first. And he's violent. 02:19:45.88 Jala He can be violent. He can be really, he can kill people, but he's not going to do it unless he's provoked, unless you come at him first. So Elizabeth leaves and the creature touches his own throat and then repeats her name. 02:19:58.81 Jala But she doesn't hear it. You know, he's she's gone by then. So back in the entryway to the tower, Victor confronts Elizabeth. He warns her not to go near it, saying that it isn't intelligent and that something went wrong as the creature only knows one word. And Elizabeth says... 02:20:16.38 Jala that this word, Victor's name, means everything to the creature at this time. So that's why that's the only word that he knows. And if you think about that and you think about the fact that the creature is baby, you know, it's just like a baby saying mama or whatever, you know, like if the mom is the primary caretaker and that's the first word that the baby says, that's because everything is mama for baby, you know? 02:20:31.25 Moxie Mm-hmm. 02:20:39.95 Jala It's the same thing here. So Elizabeth insists that the creature is simple and purer than the common man, the breath of life entering him from God directly because he is unrestrained by sin. 02:20:54.42 Jala Because he wasn't born of sin, you know, he wasn't he wasn't born into the world the same way everybody else is, so he's like above and beyond, and so the breath of life came to him directly from God. so like her Her fascination with the creature is in part because you know he is something honestly ah marvelous and magical and wonderful in a way that combines both science and her spirituality in one. So... 02:21:23.47 Moxie and she perceives it as being free from a original sin. 02:21:23.61 Jala so 02:21:27.74 Jala Right, right. So this wonderment triggers jealousy in Victor, who laughs and says that she is attracted. If I didn't know better, I'd say there is attraction in you for that thing. 02:21:40.57 Jala And she says, understanding. 02:21:41.37 Moxie I mean, Elizabeth is definitely a monster fucker. 02:21:44.92 Jala Oh, she is for sure. But she also is like, it's understanding you heathen. 02:21:46.10 Moxie but 02:21:49.88 Jala You know, like she's like, no, no, no. We understand each other. You and I, we don't understand each other. But me and that guy down there, you know, anyway, ah she says that she sees the pain in the creature's eyes. And Victor asks about what about my pain? 02:22:07.10 Jala What have you denied me? What my heart wants? And then she laughs at him. Like she she looks taken aback and she's like, your heart? 02:22:19.74 Jala And she says, um of all the organs in the human body, that is the one that he understands the least. And so then she says, only monsters play God, Baron. And then she marches off to bed angrily. 02:22:35.86 Jala So full of resentment and jealousy, Victor goes down to the holding cell to confront the creature, treating him like a trained monkey, purer than the common man. 02:22:46.81 Jala Well, let's see about that. And so when the creature doesn't comply with the requests for, you know, up, up, give me your leg, show me your leg, then Victor starts beating him ah with, I think it's like an iron poker for the fire or something. 02:23:01.88 Jala It's it's something like that. It's it's a metal thing. 02:23:04.15 Moxie Yeah, it's unclear, but something like that. 02:23:07.12 Jala Right. And then eventually the creature gets mad from being hit enough. And then he roars and bends the metal bar it went in his arms, you know, completely. So, uh, 02:23:17.85 Moxie Which, notably, though, he does not do anything actually threatening to Victor. Like, he doesn't, you know yeah. 02:23:24.86 Jala right. 02:23:27.67 Jala Well, in the original screenplay, the creature grabs Victor's hand when Victor is beating him, but that's to stop Victor from beating him. 02:23:35.13 Moxie Right, exactly, exactly. 02:23:35.88 Jala and He doesn't crush Victor's hand or anything. He just grabs the hand to keep him from hitting him. 02:23:38.94 Moxie Right, exactly. Mm-hmm. 02:23:41.91 Jala So, so from there, and and I have to say, I love the scene to just go back a minute to Victor and Elizabeth on the stairs. I loved that scene so much because it's so wonderfully emotionally charged. Like the chemistry between Mia Goth and Oscar Isaac is great. It's great. And like, you know, he is just so furious and jealous and everything. And, you know, Elizabeth is like, you're a fucking idiot. You know, I just love it. And, um you know, but like there's there's a lot of passion there and you can, you know, like they they feel like they're fighting like real lovers do, you know, or or something like that. Like they're having a lover's tiff or whatnot. um 02:24:22.42 Jala And and that's like their last big hurrah of intimacy. And there is no intimacy for them after this, you know. Um, so then we cut to the next morning where Victor tells William that the creature killed Harlander. So this is one of the many times that Victor is going to blame anything that he does on someone else. And he does that all the time. 02:24:43.51 Jala So he says, yeah, he, he got into, he flew into a rage and he killed Harlander. And Victor insists that William needs to take Elizabeth back to Vienna for her safety and keep her in the dark about Harlander's death. Don't tell her about that. 02:24:57.30 Jala Get, get rid of her, get her out of here. as victor are As William and Elizabeth rush off in the carriage, Victor pours flammables everywhere. 02:25:09.69 Jala Elizabeth has a bad feeling and insists that William turn the carriage around or she will jump. So they turn around because William's not about to let his lady jump out though out the carriage. So ah Victor stops in front of the creature, telling him to say any other word other than Victor. 02:25:27.19 Jala in order to save him. Tell me any other word other than my name and I'll save you. And then the creature says, Elizabeth. And then Victor's like, any other fucking word other than that one. 02:25:39.61 Moxie you but 02:25:39.98 Jala You don't say that word to me. And that was that's the thing that seals it. So that's the last straw. Victor is too angry at this point. And so he just starts setting everything on fire. He's like, oh, nope, nope, not that one. Any other word but that other one, you know. 02:25:55.45 Jala So as the creature is screaming Victor for help, trying to get Victor's attention to to help him, Victor begins to feel remorse as he's walking out of this tower. 02:26:06.84 Jala And as he turns around and runs back up the stairs to go rescue the creature, there's a massive explosion which shoots him back. And then the lower half of his leg gets fucking blown off and he loses half of his leg. And the carriage arrives at that point. William and Elizabeth come up and you know they are are there to tend to Victor immediately. So he gets medical care and doesn't die from bleeding out in front of the tower. He has know William and Elizabeth there But also he assumes that the monster, though the creature, the whatever, has died because the entire tower has been burned. 02:26:43.76 Moxie So what do you think about the fact that he tries to go back? 02:26:43.80 Jala Back. Uh-huh. I feel like even if he would have gone back in and saved the creature, i don't feel like that would have made ultimately a hell of a lot of difference because in the long run, victor gonna victor. 02:27:04.70 Moxie That is true. That head is true. 02:27:06.26 Jala Victor going to Victor. He going to get angry again, especially if he's a like if they take the creature back to town with them, like where are they going to keep the creature? You know, and if you have him in the house and he's ah around Elizabeth and Victor's in the house, too, he's going to get so jealous. 02:27:15.45 Moxie Right. 02:27:23.48 Jala You kidding me? And then some other shit's going to happen and he's going to find other ways to try to kill him. It's going to be like, you know, a roadrunner coyote situation. You know, like I would love to see that that fan fiction where it's Roadrunner Coyote, like, you know, Victor trying to kill the creature and then the creature just never actually quite dying, you know, like, but like in a funny slapstick, lighthearted way. 02:27:33.14 Moxie Yeah. 02:27:45.94 Moxie Yeah, yeah, yeah. 02:27:46.67 Jala don't want see it like actually. 02:27:46.94 Moxie big kuer and the 02:27:48.26 Jala Yeah. 02:27:48.86 Moxie The creature is so invulnerable that it's completely unaware that Victor is trying to kill it. 02:27:53.56 Jala Uh-huh. Right, right. That would be absolutely hilarious. I would love that. But anyway, so so yeah. um And when I saw this scene originally, I was like, oh, damn. You know, like I knew that he had his leg blown off at some point because we saw that early in the movie when they find out that he has a prosthetic leg. But, you know, I guess I was thinking that maybe that happened, you know, um after the hunt happened. for the creature and and Victor like when they were chasing each other. I figured maybe that was when that happened or something. I didn't know that it was going to be like, Oh no, like that shit happened, you know, like right when the creature was born. okay. 02:28:32.34 Jala But, uh, yeah, back in the Arctic, Victor says in seeking life, I created death. There are screams outside. And as the captain goes to talk to his men, the creature bursts in as he raises a fist. 02:28:44.79 Moxie This is the... 02:28:46.67 Jala Uh-huh. 02:28:47.54 Moxie This is the telenovela. Now the creature has to burst in and be like, Victor, you lied about me. Now you will know the real... Anyway, sorry. 02:28:56.55 Jala Yeah, it is. 02:28:56.93 Moxie I just love the telenovela. 02:28:57.18 Jala It is. This is, this is, yeah, this is the actual turning point of the movie where we get the whole other side. He said, this is 100%. He said, she said, you know, this is Judge Judy. 02:29:08.60 Moxie I like to... 02:29:09.70 Jala You're watching Judge Judy, you know? 02:29:12.31 Moxie I like to kind of imagine that even though they share like no genetics and, you know, world around each other forever, like the creature kind of is, uh, is Victor's child in that he's instantly like, now you're going listen to me be a drama queen. 02:29:32.25 Jala Right, right. For sure. Because so, so the creature bursts in and he raises a fist to wreck the captain's shit. And the captain says, go on, confirm your maker's tale. And then the creature's like, he turns, his hand is still in the air. He's still got his other hand on the captain's like shirt front. And he turns to Victor and he's like, he told his tale, hold my beer. It's my turn. Yeah. 02:30:01.58 Moxie Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 02:30:03.30 Jala and And so the the captain was then trauma dumped on for a second time that day. and that's where we're leaving off for today's show. So just wrapping up like Victor's tale in general. um When I got to this point in the film, 02:30:22.97 Jala I was really, really looking forward to Creature's Tale for sure. i was i was excited for what was going to come next. But also, um it leaves it on such a cool crescendo, like right in the middle of the movie, where like you know you've got this... this connection being made between Elizabeth and the creature and this love triangle that used to be ah the two brothers in Elizabeth is now a quadrangle. You've got a rectangle. i don't know. 02:30:50.64 Jala And now you've got another player on the board, you know? and um and except now you don't know like you know that he lives but you don't know how he gets there and and where he goes from here so so it's interesting like okay well I don't know because like that's something that Mary Shelley doesn't really talk about in the novel in terms of like right after the creature is made like you know because uh Victor in the novel he makes the creature screams and runs away and then um you know like the next time that we see the creature, he's like at the cottage in the woods, but he was in the middle of a town. 02:31:01.84 Moxie Right. Mm-hmm. 02:31:29.50 Jala How did he get out of the town without somebody seeing him freaking out and like, you know, getting the pitchforks and stuff, you know, like, I don't know, man. 02:31:35.78 Moxie Right. 02:31:37.97 Jala But anyway, to be continued, I guess. 02:31:41.85 Moxie So this is mostly off topic, but it's been bothering me the whole time. ah The Arctic outfit for the creature, like, what does that remind me of? 02:31:55.19 Moxie And I just realized Arctic creature is straight up the merchant from Resident Evil 4. 02:31:55.62 Jala Mm-hmm. 02:32:03.03 Jala yeah It is almost because he does, he does have, um, like bear chest. Like you can see it here and there. Uh, and he does have like fur on his, on his jacket on, on the shoulders, which makes him look bigger and also would help you to maybe see why people would say it's some kind of a critter because he's got fur on his shoulders. 02:32:10.90 Moxie Yeah. Yeah. 02:32:23.74 Moxie yeah yeah 02:32:24.39 Jala Um, And he's all shrouded otherwise, so you can't really see that he's a guy, per se. You just know it's a big lumbering shape with some fur sticking on it. So, um you know, that helps. 02:32:35.58 Jala Now, there are points when we get to the creature's tail where people are like, what is that thing? And I'm like, it clearly looks like a man. i don't know why you're confused, you know? 02:32:44.09 Moxie Yeah. I feel like that's one of those like suspension of disbelief. Because, yeah, it doesn't really make that much sense that like everyone flips out the way they do. 02:32:54.20 Jala Right. 02:32:57.08 Jala Right, right. So, so yeah, ah but that's where we leave off for today. So ah in the, in the beginning of this movie, like even through the halfway point of this movie, we reached this high point and then it just kind of stops like the pacing. 02:33:13.05 Jala stops and then slows back down again when we have the creature's tail starting even though the creature is starting in the tower um you know with the explosions and stuff the way that it's uh that the sound design is and everything a lot of that is background to the voiceover where he's just kind of talking about how he just got through it and and we move on to a more peaceful scene from there so um Like, I like the way that pacing works because even though it's a long movie, like, it doesn't feel as long as it is because, you know, it's it's got this flow to it. 02:33:47.85 Jala But... But yeah, ah thank you for chatting with me about this movie, part one. ah we are hoping to have Rin back on for the next section. 02:33:58.91 Jala um Rin could not make it today, but hopefully they will be back next time. And that'll be in March, sometime in March, probably at the end. So you can look forward to that. But in the meantime, Moxie, where in the world can people find you if they can find you anywhere? 02:34:16.41 Moxie Yeah, you can find me on the level that's at duckfeed.tv or you know any of the you know Spotify and stuff like that, any of the oh podcast places. We record once a week. We've been a little bit on hiatus because ah one of our hosts has been ah doing a move, but we normally record once a week and We'd love to have you. It's the ARC tagline is a video a podcast for people who love video games. 02:34:53.90 Jala Mm-hmm. on there, there is the usual banter section where you just catch up on mic. Then you get the grind, what everybody's been playing lately. You have a multiplayer question thrown out to listeners, and then you have a news section at the end. So a lot of fun. There's a lot of different games that the different hosts on the show play. So there's a variety of stuff that you get introduced to every time. So definitely give that a listen. I occasionally show up as well, often tagging in for you when you have to go Moxie. so ah you know, one of us will be on there, not usually both of us at the same time, but you know, there is a full moon every once in a while when it occurs. 02:35:36.95 Jala But otherwise, as for me, you can find me anywhere I may be found @jalachan, including jalachan.place where you found this episode and all of the others. So until next time, take care of yourself. Remember to smile and also take that laudanum, I guess. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]