[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00:09.14 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined again by Moxie (any/all) and rejoined by Ryn (they/them)! Hey what's up? 00:00:24.49 Ryn Hey, happy to be back. 00:00:26.68 Jala happy this time. so, uh, for folks who, who listened to the last episode, they will note the, uh, disappearance of Ryn. Ryn was not there. Ryn was not there because Ryn woke up that day and said, i am in a real, like, I, I could give less of a shit about men's emotions today and I don't care. And that's, that's where I'm at. So I don't think I should be on this time. And I'm like, fair, 00:00:53.43 Jala to be you know To be sure, I definitely wake up with that kind of attitude about everyone. I don't want i don't want anyone in my face today. Fuck everyone. So, understandable. 00:01:02.04 Ryn Yep, happy International Women's Day, everybody. 00:01:04.18 Jala yeah Right, that's when we're recording. So so that's where we're at. ah But anyway, yes, we we have returned. Ryn is back. And now we will get back into the the various emotions of of whiny man. so here we are. 00:01:20.53 Ryn My favorite place to be. 00:01:24.54 Jala So ah that also ends up kind of segwaying into the thing that you do. So you are a comic artist and you work on Neon Pantheon and you have a character named Cass who is a demigod, a brat. 00:01:40.57 Moxie a little whiny sometimes. 00:01:43.48 Jala So a brat. 00:01:43.47 Ryn A brat. A brat. 00:01:45.72 Jala So ah yes, yes, there there was definitely some some Cass channeling, you know, in there somewhere. so yeah. 00:01:53.21 Ryn I woke up and I was like, I'm not going to be fun today. Like, I'm not even been like being a bitch and in the fun sense. So I'm just going to spare the world for my presence today. It's the best decision I can make for everybody. 00:02:06.36 Jala I 100% feel you. And I was just like, you said it. And I was like, fair. Don't worry about it. Don't apologize. Go about your day. go go do what you need to do for you. 00:02:18.01 Jala So so yes. But anyway, Neon Pantheon. ah Tell us the new update about Neon Pantheon because there's new stuff that just happened. 00:02:24.60 Ryn Yeah. 00:02:24.84 Jala Okay. 00:02:25.04 Ryn um So for those who are looking to get into Neon Pantheon who haven't yet, I did do a digital release called The First Three Songs. It puts together the first three chapters along with a ton of like bonus stuff to really kind of help immerse you into the world. 00:02:39.95 Ryn So it's 184 page digital book that I spent a lot of time on making it look beautiful um So you can find that at my website, www.neonpantheoncomic.com, or you can continue reading for free. It updates weekly. But if you do purchase the first three songs, you'll be many, many weeks ahead of the web release because it includes the entire third chapter. 00:03:02.26 Ryn So yeah, it's been exciting. 00:03:04.06 Jala Yeah, not only that, but if you go to Ryn's Patreon and are a patron, then there's also lots of other extra stuff and you've got like physical goodies and things like that available there. 00:03:16.06 Jala I do believe you posted key chains as like a purchasable thing here recently. 00:03:20.75 Ryn Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:03:21.67 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:03:21.92 Jala and a bunch of other stuff like that. But also there's like a cool digital flip book style thing, you know, that you can, you can have as well as a patron. So ah well worth it. I will say to anybody who is interested that um of any Patreon, um, 00:03:38.39 Jala that I have ever patroned, um Ryn updates more than like fucking anyone. So like, if you, if you want a creator that's actively do it, like you get your money's worth and then some. So anyway, go, go check them out. Links will be in the show notes for everybody there. So Moxie, yes. ah After a little bit of a break because of the, Ooh, Moxie disappeared. 00:04:05.08 Jala Moxie will be back. 00:04:08.18 Jala Okay, let me put in there. And that's okay, I put a marker, so we'll be good. 00:04:20.98 Jala Okay. 00:04:22.13 Moxie you 00:04:23.26 Ryn I hear the discord thing. 00:04:24.76 Jala That was just me. 00:04:24.71 Ryn I 00:04:25.48 Jala That was just me saying, Moxie, pop back in when you can. Because, oh, yeah I don't know if they'll come back. 00:04:37.27 Jala I have tea. 00:04:38.68 Ryn i like your choker, by the way. 00:04:38.87 Jala So it's, thank you. um This is, this is one that like, I actually, it was gender affirming because this is the women's choker and it was too, it's, it's biting into my neck. 00:04:41.72 Ryn Very cool. 00:04:53.14 Ryn Yeah. 00:04:53.28 Jala So I'm like, okay, I actually need to get a bigger one. 00:04:53.75 Ryn Nice. 00:04:56.04 Jala I got to get the men's one because this is actually too tight. 00:04:58.71 Ryn nice 00:04:59.36 Jala So that was cool. Welcome back Moxie. 00:05:01.48 Moxie It was a women's Joker. 00:05:02.87 Jala Oh no, I can't i oh talk. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You came back into that. Okay, well, ah that was all like our random stuff that's not going to be in the show. So um you just I just finished wrapping, talking to Wren, so I'm going to toss to you next, and that's about the time you disappeared, so it works out. So let me put another marker. 00:05:22.33 Jala And... And Moxie, welcome back. I know that y'all are starting up with the level again now that Kay is all settled in her new home. 00:05:31.58 Moxie okay 00:05:32.45 Jala So that's very cool. So the level podcast is now rolling again. So. 00:05:37.69 Moxie Yeah, they had to talk us out of resetting it back to episode zero, but... 00:05:42.65 Jala yeah Well, I mean, like it's what, five, six, pushing 600 episodes at this point, isn't it? 00:05:49.72 Moxie Yeah, something like that. 00:05:50.36 Jala Like, it's ridiculous. 00:05:50.76 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:05:52.48 Jala I'm just like, okay, you know, like but when I first started listening to ah the level before i I decided to settle and become one of the people on the show because I just settle wherever I go. 00:06:04.36 Jala um you know, i I jumped into it because it it was like the rebranding of the Don't Tree that you guys were doing for a long time. 00:06:14.58 Jala And that had too many episodes. And I'm like, I can't. I can't keep up with that. And yes, I can jump in anytime. I'm one of those people that has to start at the first episode and listen to all of it. 00:06:25.14 Jala so ah But the level had just rebooted and was like 15 episodes in when I popped in. 00:06:26.46 Moxie Sure. 00:06:30.18 Jala So anyway. 00:06:33.40 Moxie Yeah, and you can find that on duckfeed.tv. 00:06:34.01 Jala But yeah, so... That's right. Duckfeed.tv also on the Duckfeed Patreon. And there will be a link in the show notes. Of course, I show up on that show every once in a while, usually about once a month. 00:06:46.74 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:06:48.48 Jala So every once in a while you can hear me pop up as well. So yeah, ah that's that's all of who we are and what we do and all of that stuff. Of course, I do this. Hooray. you know But so how are we all doing today? It is raining here, like storming raining here. How about for y'all? 00:07:07.41 Ryn It's 80 degrees and sunny. I'm sorry, everybody. 00:07:10.26 Jala Yeah. 00:07:11.51 Moxie Yeah, it's warm warm enough here that I'm just weaRyng like short sleeves and denim jacket um and sunny. So I think it's just Tejas that is ah having a rainy day. 00:07:26.23 Jala Yeah, in the middle of a storm cloud. That's cool. That's cool. i'm I am in in the mode and prepared for the Creature's Tale for today. so So for folks listening, you should already know by the title of this episode, this is part three of our talk about Frankenstein, the GDT movie from 2025. We have a spoiler-free first episode that just talks about production and all of the artistry and everything going into it. 00:07:50.83 Jala Then we have the first episode about the narrative, which was the last one, that was the one Ryn missed, um where it was the prologue and Victor's tale. And then today we are talking about the creature's tale and then just discussing themes and wrap-up, stuff like that. So um before we kick into the creature's tale, the first thing I want to do is ah share some errata. 00:08:14.07 Jala I confirmed via a post from Kate Hawley, the costume design lead, that it was in fact snowing in the Netflix parking lot when they filmed the ship scenes because it was in Toronto and it happened to be snowing at the time. 00:08:26.50 Jala So they weren't sweating their asses off because we were having a discussion about that on the last episode and going, well, it was in the parking lot. Depending upon where that was, it could have been like really hot, but it was in Toronto. 00:08:38.07 Jala It was snowing. So they weren't uh you they were overdressed but they weren't uh that overdressed it's not like being in in california so um also the sailors completed a final dusting of snow for their outfits by rolling in kitty litter tidy cats y'all tidy cats wow and also 00:08:43.90 Moxie That overdressed, yeah. yeah 00:08:58.90 Moxie I mean, it is a wonder of modern engineeRyng. 00:09:02.33 Jala oh 00:09:05.40 Jala Right. Well, and then also Harlander had on furs in the battlefield scene, which is even more dramatic against a backdrop of corpses and carrion crows and stuff that he's got fancy fur on and on his outfit and smoking and just like not giving a rat's ass. So, you know, ah more characterization for him. So um all of those are are now ah caught up. But we're in. 00:09:31.70 Jala About the prologue and Victor's tale, since you weren't on last time, do you have anything in particular that sticks out to you that you want to say about those? or do you want to just move on to Creature's Tale from here? 00:09:42.81 Ryn I say let's move on. 00:09:44.25 Jala Okay, sounds like a plan to me. Wren's like, I've only got so much tolerance for this. For these men. Okay, so anyway. ah Yeah, so part two the Creature's Tale. 00:09:56.92 Jala And remember last time ah we started out with the creature bursting in and then he's got his fist raised and he's going to beat the shit out of the captain. 00:10:08.12 Jala And he's sitting there. The captain says, oh, yeah, well, uh, the, you know, go ahead and and confirm your maker's tale by, by go doing this, go ahead, kill me and confirm your maker's tale. And then the creature's just like, Oh, he said, what? He told you his tale. 00:10:29.56 Jala Hold my beer. It's my turn. And so then he got trauma dumped on a second time that day, that captain. So, but, uh, the first line that he says, once we, we get to this new section, 00:10:44.89 Moxie it's It's like in yeah you know in Young Frankenstein, like the monster inherits one thing from the creator. 00:10:45.30 Jala Yes, Moxie. 00:10:53.21 Moxie um 00:10:54.13 Jala Uh, 00:10:55.16 Moxie It was something else in Young Frankenstein, but in this one, i think it's being a drama queen. 00:11:02.23 Jala ah 00:11:02.18 Ryn Hehehehehehe. 00:11:03.99 Jala right. Right. That's something that they share for sure. it's just like the, the method by which they go about it is a little bit different, but, um, Yeah, so the first line that we get of the creature's tale, I called your name and understood that I was alone. 00:11:19.86 Jala Because we left him off with the tower in flames and exploding, and he's calling for Victor, and Victor is not answeRyng. So he pulls off his restraints as the batteries are falling, and then he slams his shackles against the pillar, and then escapes through the water chute that he's been having leaves pass through this entire time. He's been playing with the leaves in the water. So he escapes through there, just kind of dead mans into the water and then just wakes up at low tide, just in a, in a tide pool. 00:11:57.94 Moxie um Also, real quick, I don't know if you it know if you saw my message. 00:11:58.17 Jala You had something Moxie? Mm-hmm. 00:12:01.86 Moxie I've got like a big delay, so I'm going to be raising my hand so I don't over talk. 00:12:08.54 Moxie ah but up but And where the heck was I going? I'm sorry. um Go on. 00:12:16.73 Jala Saw your message in the chat. Oh, okay. 00:12:21.07 Ryn Jala, that was really super choppy for me. 00:12:21.82 Jala I see. 00:12:22.94 Ryn I don't know about you. 00:12:25.05 Jala Okay. Yeah, it was. So Moxie, how about you pop back out real quick and then maybe restart your computer and pop back in and then that might, well, pop out and pop back in. 00:12:32.48 Moxie Yo. 00:12:37.09 Jala Let's see if that fixes it. And if it doesn't, then restart. It would be my suggestion. So. 00:12:47.32 Jala So we have, um when when Dave and I got married, we ended up with, hey, welcome back. How's it? Okay, how's your timing right now? Everything seems to be fine. Talk to me. 00:12:59.77 Moxie Yeah, yeah, sounds it sounds good to me. 00:13:02.87 Jala Okay, great. Cool, cool. Well, I'll just go ahead and finish saying, so when we got married, one of Dave's coworkers got us these mugs that say Mr. and Mrs., and I always use the Mr. mug, so he gets the Mrs. mug. 00:13:16.31 Jala Anyway, that's all. Okay. 00:13:19.22 Moxie So one one of the things um I think it's interesting here is I realize again overthinking it, whatever, is the fact that the creature is doing that implies, means that it has theory of mind, which normally doesn't develop until you're about four years old. 00:13:42.68 Moxie So it's interesting, like at least in some ways, the creature is you know developing very, very quickly, even though like at this point, its language skills is are super um limited. 00:13:56.06 Jala Right. Well, remember, it's something that we talked about in the first episode that we did was that um the way that it's done is such that this creature remembers, has carries all the memories of you know the the people that he is made of. 00:14:07.32 Moxie Yeah. 00:14:11.80 Jala And so he has, yeah like when he's learning language, he's not learning it for the first time, it's a remembeRyng language. And so like this situation, this duress probably like triggered 00:14:18.82 Moxie Right. 00:14:23.64 Jala okay, I need to do X, you know, get out of here, like, you know, triggeRyng memories of things that he wouldn't otherwise know. 00:14:26.30 Moxie Right, yeah, yeah. 00:14:31.48 Moxie Make that. 00:14:31.48 Jala So 00:14:31.41 Ryn Do we know is this line the ah I called your name and understood I was in the book or is that? 00:14:36.94 Jala it's not, not, none, not one of these lines is one that's in the book. 00:14:37.10 Ryn um 00:14:40.94 Jala ah GDT specifically did not want to pull that, that he wrote all of that, but it's, uh-huh. 00:14:41.24 Ryn Okay. 00:14:46.71 Ryn I thought i remembered that. Yeah, I remember sitting in the theater just feeling such sadness when I heard that line because really, and I know I missed the last episode, but in the first part, really that line is the inverse. 00:14:54.23 Jala movement them 00:14:59.72 Ryn It's he calls his name and knew he had somebody, right? Who was his whole world. And now we're starting this part with that name equaling solitude, which I just remember being, bam, this, yeah. 00:15:04.70 Jala Right. 00:15:10.36 Jala The void. yeah Yeah. 00:15:13.35 Ryn Yeah. 00:15:13.75 Jala Yeah, it's it's the void. you you You call out into the void and the void doesn't answer you. There's nobody there. you know ah Which, like, depending upon your viewpoint might be even worse than having something in the void answer you. 00:15:27.50 Jala you know So, you know, 00:15:28.44 Moxie Right. 00:15:28.41 Ryn Mm-hmm. 00:15:28.68 Moxie Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:15:30.81 Jala Right, right. But that' that's like a Lovecraftian kind of cosmic horror thing we got there. So that that's a different podcast. But ah yeah, so wandeRyng into a forest, he finds the remains of a battlefield and dons a moldy old coat. And he comes across a deer or a caribou or I don't know what the hell that is. um Some kind of ah a critter in the forest, four-legged herbivore critter in the forest. 00:15:56.12 Jala And... that like offers It offers him some berries by pushing the berries towards him. And so he starts to eat them just like the the deer is. And then he starts handing some to the, you know, like here's one for me, one for you. And is is feeding the caribou or deer or whatever it is. And having like a real Disney pRyncess moment. 00:16:19.22 Jala And of course, you know, this is not going to last very long because, you know, life is pain or whatever. And so immediately. 00:16:25.50 Ryn I still have not seen this scene. I've closed my eyes each time because I knew it was coming in the theater. 00:16:29.40 Jala oh 00:16:30.50 Ryn and I know i'm I'm like so sensitive with it's I know I will like watch the goriest, most awful shit, but anything with animals, I'm like, I can't deal with this. So I so i still haven't actually like put my eyes on this scene. 00:16:38.10 Jala Right. 00:16:41.22 Ryn I know it happens. I heard it. But still. 00:16:43.38 Jala Right, right. Well, um, they shot Bambi's mom that is what happened. 00:16:46.97 Moxie Yeah, as just to be clear, the creature is Bambi, right? 00:16:47.30 Jala So 00:16:47.50 Ryn That's context clues. I got that. 00:16:51.42 Jala ah what was that Moxie? 00:16:51.74 Moxie The creature is Bambi. Just to be clear, the creature is Bambi in this analogy, right? 00:16:56.82 Jala I guess. I mean, if if you want, but yeah. 00:16:58.26 Moxie yeah 00:17:02.65 Jala So suddenly the deer's head gets shot through in the middle of eating berries together peacefully with the creature by a hunter. And like the head explodes right in front of you in in the creature. and the And then you immediately, he turns and immediately you've got these guys who are like, what's that? Blah, blah, blah. And this is one of those things where I'm like, okay, 00:17:23.05 Jala it's clearly man shaped. It clearly has a bald ass man head. Like he's weaRyng a coat. I don't know how you could confuse him with some kind of a Sasquatch or something. Cause it's broad daylight right now. Like if it if they had set this at like, Oh, it's, it's evening or something like that, then maybe it would be a little bit more believable. But at the time it is, I'm like, Hmm, I don't, I don't know, man. 00:17:46.81 Jala So, uh, but anyway, they, huh. 00:17:47.54 Moxie Yeah, i I was thinking the other day, um it's, ah this is a weird analogy, but people talk about the the creature is Hollywood ugly. 00:18:04.62 Jala Yeah. 00:18:04.76 Moxie Yeah, where he's supposed to be hideous, but like no one would look at him and be like, 00:18:08.20 Jala Quote-unquote ugly. 00:18:08.70 Ryn As ugly as ugly that you can make Jacob Elordi as possible. 00:18:09.31 Jala Right. 00:18:12.66 Ryn There's like, yeah. 00:18:12.85 Moxie yes, exactly, exactly. 00:18:13.82 Jala All right. I don't know. I mean, like, so I know, Wren, that you love the stache, the mustache thing. Jacob Lurdy is currently sporting a mustache, and it's the most hideous fucking... 00:18:22.36 Ryn Yeah. Love it. 00:18:24.74 Jala It's fucking terrible! 00:18:24.64 Ryn Nope. And Tones, nope. 00:18:26.42 Jala Anyway... 00:18:27.80 Ryn You are, I know that's your opinion, but it's incorrect. 00:18:28.22 Jala anyway man 00:18:31.10 Ryn So. 00:18:32.60 Moxie So I've got to say, i'm seeing I'm seeing two mustaches. 00:18:33.34 Jala that's that's fine 00:18:36.76 Moxie One is just a little bit stubbly, and that one looks good. And then the other one is, um what this well, it's the dude who did the, like, you might be a redneck if... 00:18:44.04 Jala a caterpillar yes oh what's his name huh yeah yeah that guy we don't even have to that's fine 00:18:55.85 Moxie Ryn judges us. 00:18:58.16 Ryn No, I'm shaking my head for those who can't. This is a vision. I understand this is the audio medium, but I'm shaking my head. 00:19:00.66 Jala but Yeah, and deep, deep disapproval. So, yes, yes, for sure. So so anyway, going back to, like, Jacob Alordi and whether or not he may or may not be ah ugly as the creature. um Yeah, like, he's he's not an ugly little critter in the first place. Like, if he if he had, like, scraggly hair and, like, it you know, whatever, looks like a horror version of this, then I could understand it more. But, like, he doesn't. 00:19:30.97 Jala look justifiably monstrous for you to to think he's a monster. Anyway, ah so they shoot at him, they injure him, and he runs, and then he discovers while he's running, like he gets away successfully, he discovers that the wound, I think it's his shoulder, 00:19:48.63 Jala ah has healed up as he's going and it begins to rain and then he takes shelter in a mill where there's mice and he makes friends with them immediately you know because he's he's Disney pRyncess he makes friends with every creature And it turns out this is the hunter's house, actually. And he's living in like the the mill next to their house, like attached to their house. So he can see into this house, you know, from the mill. So he just like curls up in a dry corner and then peeks through the boards and sees ah the old man who is the you know the old blind man. 00:20:24.92 Jala the grandfather in this scenario ah with his granddaughter and whatever. And then he's being led over to the fire and, you know, just having some time. And then, you know, here's the creature just observing everything. 00:20:37.78 Jala And then from here, We have, um you know, like, oh, he's he's there. There was a moment here that I I had to note. So the blind man pats the girl on the head and then he pats his own head as well. 00:20:54.17 Jala You know, and that's something that um he does multiple times throughout this is he's he's mimicking what he's seeing. And that's how he's remembeRyng language, remembeRyng, um you know, types of affection and things like that. 00:21:07.90 Jala So that's pretty cool. So what do y'all think about this? Like when, when you saw him run into the mill and he's conveniently in the place where the hunters are actually like. 00:21:18.81 Ryn I just have to say, and I remember kind of closing out the first episode with this, is that at least for the audience, up until this point, the creature has really no reason to be anything but cruel because that's that's all he's really seen so far. 00:21:33.50 Moxie Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:21:35.35 Ryn um And i there's such, even with the the deer, i mean, just to see him still would just be so soft and choose kindness is, I don't know. 00:21:47.59 Ryn I'm getting all emotional again. 00:21:49.14 Jala yeah 00:21:49.05 Ryn but 00:21:50.52 Jala Yeah. 00:21:51.22 Ryn But yeah, I think it just... What he chooses to learn, I think, is is one of the things I got from this scene. it's it's He keeps seeing cruelty. He keeps having acts of cruelty sort of thrust upon him. He's still absorbing and in learning. but it's it's the kind gestures. It's the desire to learn. It's the... 00:22:10.94 Ryn desire to show and to have physical affection, you know, it's what he's choosing to absorb. And I think, I thought that scene was was really powerful because of that. 00:22:20.73 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:22:22.10 Jala Right. And that's in marked contrast to what Victor learned when he was growing up, because he had situations where he encountered cruelty or you know whatnot. And he took what he was going to take out of that, which was very distinctly different than what the creature is picking up when he's going along. 00:22:43.52 Moxie Um, something, uh, yeah, some, something that I was actually, when wondeRyng with that is the, uh, the sort of Disney pRyncess moments. 00:22:56.41 Moxie Do they, um, do you remember, do those appear in the book? I know in the like original edition, um, he's a explicitly a vegetarian, but don't recall him. 00:23:07.45 Jala He's... Yeah. 00:23:09.08 Moxie Yeah, go on. 00:23:09.36 Jala So, so he is a vegetarian and he says, um at multiple points in the book, he's, you know, like I, I live in peace, you know, with, with other stuff. 00:23:20.95 Jala I will go to, you know, ah South America with my, my new bride, if you make me my bride and, uh, we will go live in peace with the animals in the forest. And so like, he says that, so like, it might be inferred that as long as the entities around him are not judging him and being harsh and cruel ah shooting at him, screaming, pitch torches and pitchforks, you know, then he, he would be fine with that. 00:23:42.08 Moxie Shooting at him. 00:23:50.58 Jala So ah that's how I read it. So yeah, like it's lifted sort of from the book, but like in, in the fact that like the creature says in the original text that, you know, like ah he's fine living in peace with animals, you know, like he doesn't have anything against animals. 00:24:05.86 Jala He doesn't want to harm them. So, so yeah, then we have like a whole montage of time passing because of course we've got to have, you know, enough time for the creature to um get all of the the stuff he's supposed to learn. And so we need to have like a shorthand way of doing that without spending 7,000 years doing this. So the creature is learning about words from the family because the blind man is giving the girl lessons. And that's how he remembers how to speak and also how to read because he's holding up letters and she's reading books and he's able to look in and I guess he's trying to look over her shoulder to read the book. I don't know. um 00:24:46.97 Jala But the family at one point needs kindling and the creature gathers tons of it because he's like, how can I be of assistance to these people? I was instantly, and you know, basically instantly in love with them. He wanted to be um a benefactor to them because he felt as if, um you know, he was getting benefit out of this. So um then the blind man ends up attributing the gatheRyng of the kindling and everything to the spirit of the forest. ah You know, they have a green man up on their um doorway. And so, you 00:25:21.18 Jala Even though he knows that it's somebody in the mill, and that's something that we learn a little bit later, he's still saying that just to kind of provide cover for the guy that's in there because he knows there's somebody in there, but he's just waiting. 00:25:33.91 Moxie Yeah, so so I wasn't sure from this if he was doing that or if he, at least at this point, believed that the creature was like a household spirit. 00:25:34.00 Jala And, uh, uh-huh. 00:25:48.60 Moxie You know, like the whole thing like, you know, oh, the elves live in the attic and, you know, make shoes at night, you know, that sort of thing. 00:25:56.63 Jala I don't think it's that like it doesn't come across to me like he's thinking that it comes across to me like he knows there's somebody and he's trying to cover for him. 00:26:04.87 Ryn That's how I took it too. 00:26:06.58 Moxie Okay, okay. 00:26:06.60 Jala Uh huh. 00:26:08.06 Moxie The other thing I did look up and found interesting is, at least at this time period, the green man would have been viewed as as basically a variant of like the wild man, kind of like Sasquatch, kind of European equivalent Sasquatch, which I think is very consistent with kind of the continuing theme of 00:26:26.90 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:26:33.66 Moxie um the creature being closer to nature and then therefore in some sense more pure. 00:26:41.66 Jala um Right. So the little girl thanks the spirit of the forest and, you know, pats it and everything. And then the creature pats his own head and says, thank you. And that's a scene that a lot of people love because it's like, oh, he's, he's, pet he wants to get head pats and he wants to be told he's a good boy, you know? 00:27:01.59 Jala um And so he he does that also while he's holding one of his little mice friends. 00:27:03.03 Moxie Best boy. 00:27:07.11 Jala So like, you know it there gdt is really going over the top making you want to fall in love with this creature and he's really like pushing that envelope you know um so the the building uh the family were building a sheet pen at one point and that the creature finishes it at night and then the family begins to leave presents for the creature food and flowers and clothing And um it's not indicated in the movie, but I would imagine imagine that would be at the blind man's urging to leave these gifts. 00:27:40.14 Jala Now, leaving gifts out for house fairies and things like that is a usual tradition, but specifically leaving stuff like clothes and everything, that makes me think that it's definitely got to be like the old man going, I think that he would want some clothes and stuff. 00:27:54.87 Ryn Mm-hmm. 00:27:55.16 Jala You know, doing that because he gets boots and some other stuff like that given to him by the people in the house. So and then he says, as he's unwrapping one of his packages and looking at the flowers and stuff on the roof of the house. And for a moment, for a brief, brief moment, the world and I were at peace. 00:28:16.09 Jala And like, that's another one of those heartbreaking lines where it's like, oh you know, you just want this, this guy to just be able to go live his life, live his best life somewhere, you know? 00:28:18.62 Ryn a 00:28:27.86 Jala So. 00:28:28.28 Moxie I know this one, and know know, was very much a feel for me because, like, I've for a long time struggled with depression, stuff like that. 00:28:38.77 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:28:39.42 Moxie And so, like, that feeling of, like, I am happy, but how long is, is like, a whole mood. 00:28:46.39 Jala Right. 00:28:49.62 Jala Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So ah the little girl is then reading to the family and then they are interrupted by the howling of wolves and the hunters rush outside to see that the wolves are killing several sheep and the hook you know the the hunters shoot the wolves, take out a couple of them, but the rest of the pack runs off and the creature is in the mill and watching this. 00:29:13.27 Jala And so he's making his observations accordingly. The hunter did not hate the wolf. The wolf did not hate the sheep, but violence felt inevitable between them. 00:29:23.86 Jala Perhaps I thought this was the way of the world. It would hunt you and kill you just for being who you are. And I tell you what, like ah in our current government, as a pot passel of queer folk, ah like, yeah. 00:29:35.19 Ryn a 00:29:41.28 Jala um 00:29:41.78 Ryn have no idea what you're talking about 00:29:43.32 Jala Right, right. um So, and so yeah, relatable, relatable. 00:29:46.58 Moxie So i 00:29:49.75 Moxie I did on this one, i want to see if I'm just missing something because the one thing that I thought was a little weird is like to a certain degree this seems like that realization and then kind of the way he, the creature applies it once the wolves later attack, um feels like it becomes kind of a core part of his development. 00:30:21.24 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:30:22.46 Moxie But at the same time, like he never really recants that and that doesn't actually seem like that sentiment is all that consistent with the message of this story. Does that make makes sense? Like a it just struck me as weird that there's never really a point where like the the creatures shown rethinking this view of the world as just like everyone's in it for themselves. 00:30:50.74 Jala Yeah, I understand what you're saying. ah and it's like, you see more of that behavior in terms of like Victor and Harlander, they are absolutely the people who are out for themselves and everything. 00:31:07.64 Jala Whereas Like the creature, you know, the whole point about like, oh, this person didn't hate this person, but violence felt inevitable. 00:31:07.86 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:31:15.58 Jala What they're really saying, what he's trying to say here is is not necessarily like to the letter so much as it feels like he's he's more or less saying that... 00:31:27.96 Jala um violence is something that happens regardless of whether there's, you know, like ah a justifiable reason behind it. And so this, right. 00:31:37.37 Moxie Yeah, yeah, state of nature, that sort of thing. 00:31:39.77 Ryn Yeah. 00:31:40.06 Jala And so like, that means therefore that like the violence that is done onto him is not necessarily because the hunters hate him. They don't understand him, you know, because he, yeah. 00:31:50.12 Moxie That's reasonable. Yeah, no, no, that makes sense. 00:31:51.33 Ryn That's, that, that, that was how I took it. 00:31:51.96 Moxie I see what you're saying. 00:31:52.24 Jala Yeah. 00:31:52.80 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:31:54.08 Ryn It's not necessarily him reflecting on something that would become a part of his philosophy. It's sort of him understanding why he's in the predicament that he found himself in. 00:32:02.42 Moxie That makes sense. 00:32:03.16 Jala Right. 00:32:03.64 Ryn um Whether it's Victor, whether it's the hunters that he, it's him sort of rationalizing it and starting to more understand what other people are saying. 00:32:13.05 Jala Right. 00:32:13.24 Moxie isn 00:32:13.66 Jala Right. Understanding like, you know, what other people would be experiencing, like getting outside of his own head into someone else's basically. 00:32:14.26 Moxie and makeland 00:32:21.56 Jala So, um, yeah, I mean, right. 00:32:22.39 Ryn Because imagine if you were just born and everybody hated you and was shooting at you all the time. 00:32:25.72 Moxie Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:32:25.87 Ryn like 00:32:26.92 Moxie Totally, totally. Well, and... Assuming I don't think the animal or the family is ever shown having farm animals, so that would mean that like this is ah the wolf's killing the sheep is only the second time he's ever seen something die. 00:32:46.17 Jala Yeah. 00:32:46.84 Moxie So I mean, like that that would be very weird. 00:32:47.03 Jala Yeah. I understand what you mean. 00:32:50.90 Jala m That would be like a whole thing where he has to figure out. And then not only that, but it's the hunters both times too. Like the hunters killed that deer in front of him. 00:32:58.63 Moxie Yeah. 00:32:59.69 Jala And then now the hunters are killing the wolves. But in this case, they're defending themselves. And in the case of the deer, they're trying to get their dinner. So, you know, um but again, it's like their, their needs that they're concerned with, not the needs of the wolves or whatever. 00:33:13.69 Moxie And to be fair, all deer are inherently evil creatures. 00:33:13.98 Jala So, 00:33:17.84 Moxie ah I know this from someone who had to drive in Ohio. 00:33:23.29 Jala ah 00:33:24.70 Ryn Why, what do you mean they're in here? Okay, this is not the point of the podcast. 00:33:27.32 Moxie they they like he Hitting is the highest like causes of death in Ohio is. 00:33:28.07 Ryn I'm from, I'm from Ohio. What do you mean? 00:33:36.12 Ryn Right, but it's, it's humans fault that they're so overpopulated in Ohio because we removed their, um, uh, yeah. 00:33:43.22 Moxie Yeah, they're natural predators. 00:33:45.69 Ryn how All the coyotes are gone. Yeah. So, 00:33:47.80 Jala hu Yeah. So the the the humans don't hate the deer. Yeah. Anyway, is so so I'm trying to tie it back in. 00:33:56.09 Moxie The deer don't... 00:33:55.96 Ryn unless i Unless you're the person... 00:33:58.23 Jala I'm trying to tie it back in. 00:33:58.52 Ryn Unless you're unless you're that person from Ohio. 00:33:58.74 Moxie The they the the cars don't... 00:34:01.08 Jala Right. 00:34:01.43 Moxie Yeah. The guard cars don't hate the deer, the deers don't hate the car, and therefore I should forgive the deer. 00:34:04.38 Jala Right. Right. 00:34:07.95 Moxie Okay. 00:34:08.21 Jala right 00:34:08.39 Moxie i I have grown as a human being, I feel, and that's really what this podcast is all about. 00:34:12.28 Jala right 00:34:15.61 Jala That's right. That's right. So ah the hunters then sell the remaining sheep and plan to take the the wife, the daughter and the blind man to town while the hunters track down and kill the rest of the wolf pack, especially since winter is beginning to set in and the blind man refuses to go. He says, you know, I stay here every winter by myself and I pray. 00:34:37.43 Jala And that's what I do. And that's not changing just because the situation has changed. I am still going to stay here. And part of part of me wants to think that the reason why he was making this choice was because he knew the guy was in the mill. 00:34:51.43 Jala And if, um you know, he left, then there wouldn't be like food stuffs or anything there. 00:34:58.88 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:35:00.18 Jala And so that's what I feel. I feel like he was staying behind in part because of that. Yes, because he prays every winter in the place, but also, know, Because he knows there's a guy in the shed. You know? So... um Anyway, the the hunters are like stubborn old goat or whatever. And then they all take their leave. 00:35:18.07 Jala So at this point, ah the blind man says, it's just you and I now, spirit. Just you and i And goes into the house. So ah the blind man then ends up asking like, cause the creature's like, okay, well now that everybody else is gone, i feel I can finally present myself to this old man. So I'm going to do that because he's blind. He surely won't hate me upon seeing me because he can't see me. So like, maybe, maybe things will work out this time. And so he, he enters the house and the blind man asks why he's come. And he says, travel. 00:35:56.66 Jala and the blind man welcomes him says oh I can't see so i can't you know be a very good host of my apologies but pull up a chair to the fire there's bread and brandy and when the creature is confused about that the blind man you know is is like oh the brandy is over there on the table and the the creature picks up the bottle and doesn't know what the bottle is or how to use it and he's just kind of like turning it around in his hands and he's not used to really like you know hand eye coordination so his hands are kind of awkward at this point and he ends up dropping it and then he's terrified because he's just remembeRyng victor basically beating him for anything and so he he shRynks back and then the old man's like you know why are what are you what what are you afraid of it's okay what are you afraid of and everything you know the world you know and and so the blind man you know comes and asks him to come over and is is kind of like touching his face and going, you've got scars everywhere and you're weaRyng uniform. 00:36:35.81 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:36:57.02 Jala You know, you must be a soldier. You must have been hurt in the war and and so on and so forth. And he kind of comes up with his own backstory for the creature. 00:37:07.48 Moxie And one of the things I think interesting here is... With the fact that the creature is hiding in his shed, like there is no chance. like the The old man definitely thinks this guy is a de deserter. 00:37:20.71 Moxie like that That would be the obvious conclusion to draw. 00:37:21.53 Jala Mm-hmm. 00:37:24.47 Moxie And I think it's interesting on his character that like he never admits it. There's never any discussion of, like don't worry, I won't turn you in. It's just, it never comes up. 00:37:39.73 Jala Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, the the thing about the blind man is that he's like the super ultimate accepting guy because he did some shit in his past that we learn about later. And like that... 00:37:55.26 Jala has made him empathetic. Like, like most of the time, the the best people that you know, the most um loving and caRyng people that you know, are the people who've been through some shit. And that's kind of like this too. And so like you, you understand that the reason why the blind man doesn't even bRyng it up is because he's just like, you know, the, the epitome of, of the sympathetic person who's been through some shit themselves, you know? 00:38:21.56 Jala So, um, so the, the blind man also decides that the creature must be like a foreigner or something because the way that he talks is kind of halting because he's not used to speaking. 00:38:21.92 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:38:33.11 Jala So, um, you know, there, there's this whole thing, you know, where, where they're having this little exchange and, um, Yeah, the blind man says that something in the creature's voice persuades him of the creature's goodwill and kindness. 00:38:50.71 Jala And he offers his home to the creature saying that it would help him out because it would give him companionship. And he could also read to the old man because the old man can't read for himself. 00:39:03.19 Jala Make this your home and i your friend. And the creature takes the blind man's hand and places it on his head to ask for head pats. 00:39:11.53 Ryn you 00:39:13.14 Jala And the sweetest damn thing. And then he gives the old man a hug, and which is also the second sweetest thing after the head pats thing. It's like, oh my God. Right. 00:39:24.69 Ryn Yeah, GDT really. i mean, i think at that point, at least i remember like audibly singing in theaters, people like heaRyng their them going like, aww, like out loud. 00:39:35.64 Jala Right. 00:39:35.76 Ryn And it's hard it's hard to to get an audience to do that. And I think there's there is a point in the movie where... so many of us just want to like be this no matter what what we identify as we want to be this creature's mother and like just like hug it and show it some softness so to see it was very on like on and and very touching um but also we you know we know it's not going to last so 00:39:48.50 Moxie Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:39:59.51 Jala Right. Well, something that I wanted to also comment to is that um it's interesting that in the original novel and also here, like the first softness that he the creature really gets is from another man. 00:40:14.65 Jala It's not from, you know, like a woman or anything like that. And um that's interesting because, of course, like ah we talked about earlier. Dave Jackson and I did back on the episode about the book. 00:40:25.93 Jala But, um you know, like Mary Shelley herself had lost a daughter and her mother had died before, like in childbirth. And so died like right after, well, not in childbirth, but right after she'd gotten a fever and had complications and had passed away like pretty quick. 00:40:44.38 Jala um 00:40:44.95 Moxie Mm-hmm. 00:40:45.75 Jala and things like that. So like she herself also grew up with mostly men navigating her life and everything because she did not get along well with her stepmother or anything like that. So, ah but, but also like um part of her, her horror, 00:41:03.99 Jala thing that she wrote is about like generation of life without like the physical process of, of, you know, having a child through normal means, you know? So, um you know, it's it's just kind of interesting as a ah ah topic to to bRyng up. Cause I know feminism, um, has really stared at this quite a bit. I mean, like you, we were shaRyng Moxie a little bit about like, not just poor things, but then that new movie, the bride, which doesn't look good to me, but apparently is making a lot of like the trailer trailer does it a disservice, I think. 00:41:37.43 Jala Um, but it's, it's supposedly like a more feminist take on, on, uh, Frankenstein in general. So, uh, 00:41:44.31 Moxie Which I think is a cool idea. 00:41:45.91 Jala Right, right. So ah we get another montage of time passing because we have to, you know, keep keep the story moving along. So the creature is reading beginning with the Bible. The creature and the blind man are walking in the forest in the fall. Then there's the first snowfall. 00:42:02.14 Jala Have you never seen snow before, my dear friend? It makes the world clean and new. and if you notice, the creature spreads his arms in the same fashion that he did with Victor when he first saw the sun for the first time. 00:42:15.26 Jala um So I like that because like that's that with the arms spread, it's like a vulnerable but open hearted kind of acceptance of of each new wonder as it's brought ahead of you. So it's also, of course, more religious symbol you know symbols going on there with the cross shape. 00:42:36.73 Jala But we also have the creature in the rafters finishing Ozymandias by Percy Shelley. So he's reading ah she Percy Shelley, um you know, Mary Shelley's husband's work. 00:42:48.60 Jala And he jumps down and asks innocently if there are more books in the world than what the blind man has. And that makes the blind man chuckle. He's like, oh, there are a few more. Not here, though. 00:43:00.66 Jala And the blind man tells him to read Paradise Lost next. Man has questions for God. Even God has questions. I think he wanted answers and that is why he sent us his son. Death probably intrigued him suffeRyng. And the creature says that he wants to know, you know, who he is. They kind of shift topic. who I want to know who I am. The blood blind man says that God took the creature's memory away. Like he wishes that he would take the blind man's and 00:43:31.29 Jala then says, you know, why he does penance every whi and every winter in the cabin alone, it's because once upon a time he killed a man who was a good man and he killed that person. We don't know any more about the context, like why that happened or any of that, you know, just that he took the life of this person. He's been atoning for the rest of his days ever since then. Forgive, forget the true measure of wisdom to know you have been harmed by whom you have been harmed and to choose to let it all fade. 00:44:03.67 Jala And the creature says that he can't forget what he doesn't remember because he doesn't even he doesn't even know what's going on. So he sees different memories of different men. That's the people that he was made of. In his dreams, he sees these these different things. 00:44:18.23 Jala He says he remembers fire and water, sand under his feet in a single word, victor. And the blind man tells him, go to that word, go find the word, and that'll help you figure out who you are. 00:44:32.22 Jala So um just some notes about the original screenplay because you know ah we were compare contrasting last episode and ah it hasn't come up yet until now. So as for the screenplay, we have more scenes of the creature with the blind man gardening and doing other stuff like that. So you have even more time with the blind man in the original screenplay. 00:44:53.14 Jala The blind man also gives the creature the copy of Paradise Lost for him to keep. And so he keeps the book with him and he has it from then on. And in the original screenplay, nothing is monstrous in the mind of God is said by Elizabeth and the blind man, but it was removed from the movie. But that's a line that both Elizabeth and the blind man say in the original screenplay. 00:45:17.46 Jala So. 00:45:18.39 Moxie I wonder why that was removed. 00:45:20.82 Jala so I have no idea, but it it was cut out. So any thoughts on this little montage? We also get to tell that time is passing because the creature starts bald and then he has short hair and then he's got long hair. So, you know, enough time has passed that all of his hair grew and he's, he now has, you know, long, luxurious locks. 00:45:39.51 Jala So, okay. So moving along, we cut to the, oh yes. 00:45:43.80 Moxie I thought 00:45:46.39 Moxie um So I appreciate the selection of books. I'm pretty sure at least Paradise Lost shows up explicitly in the novel. 00:45:55.83 Jala Yes. 00:45:57.85 Moxie But I love that other than that, this is like such a like just romantic romantic author, like, you you know, all all the things that like the Shelleys and stuff would definitely be reading. 00:46:12.55 Moxie Yeah. 00:46:12.92 Jala Right, right. 00:46:14.39 Moxie and probably an old random man in the woods would likely not be reading. but 00:46:20.09 Jala ah Well, we don't know who he was before he became the old random man in the woods. 00:46:24.12 Moxie ah That's true, that's fair, but I just thought was it was, it is very like, I don't know, it it is very what like high school me read to like think I was cool, you know? 00:46:25.29 Jala I mean... 00:46:39.13 Jala ah Well, we already know that GDT has a 16-year-old Victorian girl in his heart or something. 00:46:47.49 Ryn Mm-hmm. 00:46:48.60 Jala Whatever it was he said. Ha ha ha! So we cut to the creature returning to the tower ruins and he finds Victor's notes and photographic plates of his making, one of which he holds up to his own face, which I knew the moment I saw it when they first made the plate. 00:47:04.82 Jala I'm like, he's going to hold it up to his face. and That's that's the whole point of that. Like, I know. And it happened. So, yeah. 00:47:12.47 Moxie check ops photo. 00:47:12.94 Jala Yeah. Yep. So he holds up that photographic plate and creates basically a mirror of himself, but one is incomplete. And then he says, I understood that I was nothing, a wretch, a blot, not even of the same nature as man. 00:47:30.78 Jala And he finds the letter from the Royal Society that William had brought for Victor, which somehow survived being like blown up and all of this other stuff and the elements for all this time. 00:47:41.16 Ryn Mm-hmm. 00:47:42.58 Moxie I have a theory on this. I have a theory. 00:47:46.07 Jala Well, let me just say that it it, it, it, let me just say that it also has Victor's name and address and that's how the creature knows where to go. 00:47:46.56 Moxie It's like, okay. 00:47:53.18 Jala Continue. 00:47:54.33 Moxie my My theory is that this, and especially the photographic plates, that that is the ghost of Harlan being like, fuck you, Victor. 00:48:03.10 Jala Yeah. Right. 00:48:03.61 Moxie that's That's my theory. He ghostly interposed. 00:48:08.25 Jala Right, right, for sure. So ah we cut to the creature returning to the cabin in time to find that the wolves have invaded and mortally wounded the blind man. 00:48:18.91 Jala Enraged, the creature tears them apart. And this is like, rips the skin off of one, like just pulls the fucking back off of the thing. 00:48:25.08 Ryn a It was intense. That was an intense scene. 00:48:29.02 Jala and breaks another one's back like Bane, just snap, you know, ah lifting it up and then throwing the corpse at the other wolves who then skitter out of the way. 00:48:38.64 Moxie Yeah, 00:48:39.90 Jala And he is roaRyng at the pack. And when he's roaRyng, he's doing like the the hand claws and and making himself big and and doing like the Frankenstein, the monster Frankenstein pose, you know, when he's, he's making himself big at at the creatures to scare them. 00:48:51.58 Moxie yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah 00:48:56.02 Jala And um so, yeah, ah that that was a big, big rough scene for sure, especially if you are a creature lover. um Ryn, did you have your eyes closed? 00:49:07.45 Ryn No, I actually and that was one thing I feel like GDT did a good job of making the wolves almost feel more monster like like fictionally. 00:49:08.18 Jala Okay. 00:49:16.18 Moxie Yeah. 00:49:16.86 Ryn They didn't look like wolves, but like in a good in a good way, I thought um to where it made it a little easier to kind of be as intense and violent as it was. 00:49:17.24 Jala Okay. 00:49:19.70 Jala Okay. 00:49:26.36 Jala Yeah. Well, and again, like as violent as the creature can be, cause he can be really violent. It's only ever when it's provoked. And sometimes even when he's provoked, he's just trying to get away. He doesn't even want an altercation. um Anyway, so ah he scares off the rest of the wolves. He doesn't go hunt them down. He just wants them gone. So they go. And then he rushes to the blind man's side and he tells him, I am the child of a charnel house, a wreckage assembled from refuse and the discarded dead, a monster. 00:49:59.13 Jala And then the old man replies, I know what you are, a good man. And you are my friend. And then he dies. Sad days, sad days. 00:50:10.87 Jala So ah the hunters return conveniently at this exact moment when, at this exact moment when the the creature has the old man in his hands and he's bloody and dead. You know, ah the hunters come in, recognize the creature as the same thing they were shooting at in the woods. 00:50:28.70 Jala And assume that he killed the blind man. Never mind all the dead wolves everywhere. Like nobody's paying attention to the skinned wolves, but whatever. And then they end up attacking him. And and so so ah before I continue, I just want to say the hunters were probably pursuing the wolves. The wolves went to the house. So the hunters also went to the house and that's why they're there. 00:50:51.00 Jala But it's it's ridiculous. Like the timing is ridiculous. you know just Just at the right time to think that the creature did it. um Anyway, they attack him. One shoots him in the eye and the other stabs him in the heart with a sickle. 00:51:03.90 Jala And the creature, now he wasn't going to hurt them until they started to attack him. But he is in a lot of pain and he just lost the the blind man. 00:51:12.19 Moxie Thank you. 00:51:12.74 Jala So he tears the jaw off of the guy in front of him. Just rips the jaw off the guy and it's just blood gushing everywhere and the guy falls over and then he just staggers out. 00:51:23.93 Jala He's just trying to get away. you know um The other two hunters shoot at him some more and he ends up dying at the gate where they leave his corpse. They don't even pick up the corpse. They're just, they leave it there and he just dies there in the snow. 00:51:39.19 Jala And in the original screenplay, the creature had kept a mouse in his pocket and it came to see him when he died. 00:51:49.37 Moxie I just love that. 00:51:49.37 Ryn I didn't know that. 00:51:50.62 Jala Yeah, but that that was in the original screenplay that you don't see a mouse in his pocket here. You see mice around him when he's in the house, but you don't see like his special mouse friend that he had that lived in his pocket. 00:52:02.17 Jala But he had a mouse that lived in his pocket that came to see him. 00:52:04.42 Ryn I would have lost it. 00:52:05.53 Jala ah yeah, exactly. 00:52:05.88 Ryn I would have lost my mind. 00:52:07.48 Jala Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, like, I think, I think that part was taken out just in terms of like, they want you, GDT wants you to, to feel more the agony of the fact that he's about to come back to life again, more so than the fact that he just died. 00:52:22.76 Moxie Right. 00:52:25.82 Jala So we cut from there. 00:52:27.86 Moxie head um Has um GDT ever done... 00:52:28.94 Jala Uh-huh. 00:52:31.50 Moxie i know he I know he's a huge fan of like fairy tales and folklore and that sort of thing. Has he ever done an adaptation of like a pRyncess story? 00:52:42.53 Moxie or you know not i'm not necessarily meaning like a Disney pRyncess story, but like you know a folkloric? 00:52:46.84 Jala Pan's LabyRynth is sort of, yeah, Pan's LabyRynth. 00:52:47.85 Ryn And LabyRynth, was going to say. 00:52:48.98 Moxie is it Okay, i've I've never seen I've heard good things, but... 00:52:50.26 Jala Yeah. 00:52:50.42 Ryn kind of his version. 00:52:51.57 Jala I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And by the way, I'm going to be talking about Pan's LabyRynth along with Dave on Nostalgam Arcanum. um Friend of the show, Doug Leaf, has his show going. And um he was like, you've been doing this Frankenstein thing and I really want to get in on that GDT action. Let's talk about a GDT movie. And I'm like, which one do you have in mind? 00:53:14.05 Jala Pan's LabyRynth. Okay. Sure. 00:53:16.05 Moxie i'm I'm sorry. 00:53:16.39 Jala So... 00:53:16.97 Moxie i've i've I've got to object. Pan's LabyRynth came out where i was in college. Therefore, it cannot be on a nostalgic-themed podcast. that's That's just the rules. 00:53:28.58 Moxie I'm sorry. 00:53:29.69 Jala yeah Well, well, the real um reality of it is that it's, it's old now. It's 20 years old as of like this year, I think 20 years. 00:53:42.26 Jala So, so yeah, anyway, I just revealed your age and I'm older than you. So. Yeah. 00:53:47.90 Moxie this this is where i need This is where I need to read Ozymandias about how we are all just dust in the yo pages of time or whatever. 00:53:47.90 Ryn You just sent me into a crisis. 00:53:57.24 Jala Right, right. So, oh, anyway, we cut back to the creature coming back to life and he feels envy for mankind who is able to die and be released from torment where he will keep coming back to life. It's like he's stuck in a, like the the circle of karma, but without like all of the interim steps of like having a fresh life and having the ability, like he's just, no, he's stuck, stuck, stuck, you know, in the cycle of Samsara. So we cut to the Arctic where the creature says that he would demand a companion from Victor at this point because he has denied fellowship from humanity. He cannot be with humans because they are not, they are not of the same type as him. And so he can't, 00:54:39.67 Jala you know, have fellowship with them. Pretty obviously he tried and that went over absolutely terribly. So, uh, he says that that's his next intention is I need another one like me. 00:54:51.86 Jala So we cut to Victor in the past, waking up to see the dark angel removing its face to reveal its skull. So this is the first time we see it where it's got the the skull. I think Moxie, um, 00:55:03.10 Moxie Yeah, I like to believe that that's the one that Del Toro has like up in his, yeah. 00:55:08.41 Jala at the Yeah, like at his door so doorway or whatever it is. um so So Victor is in the estate and it is William and Elizabeth's wedding day. And Victor pulls on his prosthetic leg. So this is the first time we see him since everything blew up. And we go, oh, it's number one, it's been long enough that it's healed now and he has a prosthetic. 00:55:31.22 Jala Okay, well then that explains in the Arctic when he has the prosthetic leg. So... William tells him that he has spoken with most of the guests about the inquest and that the majority accept it for what it was. 00:55:43.90 Jala And what was it? The past, Victor, a horrible accident. So he says he intends to sell the estate. All we have is each other. 00:55:54.39 Jala So, um you know, like he he is trying to kind of kind of move on by getting rid of what they have of the past and all of the bad things that have happened so that they can all kind of move forward together as a ah family, more or less. 00:56:11.51 Jala um And by that line on his wedding day, it makes me feel like, you know, because Victor is now missing a leg, like that William is going to basically take him in as a hangers-on when he gets married and moves in wherever he moves. He's going to take Victor with him, you know, to take care of him. 00:56:28.31 Jala Again, because William is the mom in this situation. 00:56:28.78 Moxie And the 00:56:30.39 Ryn Mm-hmm. 00:56:30.99 Jala yeah. In the original screenplay, William is more actively compassionate and affectionate and protective of his brother. So, you know, even more than what we get in the movie, we have a lot more from William in terms of like his loving care. 00:56:47.22 Jala So we didn't get ah nearly as much of of William's loviness that we had in the original screenplay. So definitely recommend people check that out because there are some differences for sure. 00:57:00.79 Jala But Victor then goes to ah Elizabeth and apologizes, saying that I rarely feel remorse, but now I feel little else. A fever gripped me, but it has passed and he sees her for what she is, his dear sister, and wishes them the very best. 00:57:16.86 Jala And she insists that he might like to believe that that's what he's doing and that's what he thinks. But she's sick of all the lies. And on my wedding day, I want one thing from you. Stop lying to me. Stop lying. 00:57:31.29 Jala You know, just for once. 00:57:31.76 Moxie So I feel a little mixed about this scene because like like It is totally you know a possible thing that could have happened that like Victor ah oh hit rock bottom and you kind of turned his life around. And like the last thing we see before that, the last time Victor was doing anything, we see him like having his super late change of conscience and going back and trying to rescue the the creature. 00:58:04.86 Jala Right. 00:58:05.59 Moxie So like, I initially, like, obviously everything that comes after, it's very clear like, oh, Victor has actually learned absolutely nothing. But like, when I first saw this scene, I felt a little bad for Victor because it felt like, I don't know, like, yeah maybe he could. 00:58:15.13 Jala Right. 00:58:22.30 Jala Well, well, so, so, 00:58:22.54 Ryn I thought she should have hit him harder. That's what I thought. 00:58:25.59 Moxie Pow! 00:58:25.69 Jala well 00:58:26.33 Moxie Right in the kisser. 00:58:27.80 Jala well so so um Yeah, I understand what you're talking about because like I'm a person who likes to believe that people can change and have room to change and do things. 00:58:41.10 Jala So like i'm I'm one of those types of people. So I'm like, oh, that's pretty hard. But we do find out later that no, she's a right on the money. But like i I would assume that in the interim time that they've been in the same house together, that she's 00:58:55.99 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:58:57.05 Jala you know, picked up on some shit to realize that no, nothing really changed for him. 00:58:58.84 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 00:59:01.24 Jala Um, you know, but 00:59:02.39 Moxie Totally agree. 00:59:03.70 Ryn Also, so I think pretending something never happened is not accepting it and taking response. 00:59:04.44 Jala okay 00:59:08.02 Jala right. 00:59:09.14 Moxie That's true. 00:59:09.05 Ryn That's different that's different than taking responsibility. 00:59:09.78 Moxie That's true. 00:59:12.06 Jala Right. 00:59:12.15 Moxie That's true. Yeah. 00:59:14.26 Jala Right. So, um, so when he gets closer, cause we didn't talk, talk about this, she does slap him. And tells him to leave. And then he rushes out and then she opens a book pulling out the leaf that the creature had given her um back when they had their little exchange in the basement of the tower before everything went blow, blow. 00:59:34.22 Jala So. 00:59:34.52 Moxie Yeah, every every scene Elizabeth there is in, she's just like the coolest person in the scene. like 00:59:40.74 Jala Mm hmm. Well, and that's, it's good because she's the only female character in the entire thing, you know? So, so we've got that. 00:59:51.74 Jala But yeah, so back in Victor's room, he notices the window is now open. He shuts it and tells the creature to show himself and the creature does. He just kind of walks out of the shadows and there he is. 01:00:02.87 Jala Are you here to thank me? You survived and are intelligent enough to have found me. I made you well. He doesn't seem surprised at all to see the creature and that the creature lived. So, uh, the creature then asks him to make a companion and he doesn't specify, i want you to make me a lady friend. 01:00:21.50 Jala He just says, i just need a companion, somebody who is like me. And then Victor assumes that he means a woman, you know, like, Oh, you want a bride, you know? 01:00:32.45 Jala um 01:00:33.13 Moxie Very Victor. 01:00:34.20 Jala Yeah. And oh, another monster. Yes, we can be monsters together, which is the the most quoted line from the entire movie is probably that line. You know, we can be monsters together. Victor says that he found his sanity at a high cost, but here is the creature as madness calling him back. 01:00:55.32 Jala And the creature says, I cannot die and I cannot live alone. 01:00:56.02 Moxie So. 01:00:59.74 Jala And that's the heart. Everybody's sad. 01:01:01.85 Ryn Yeah, that is, yeah. 01:01:02.82 Jala Yeah. Yeah. 01:01:04.73 Moxie So that that, I think, ah that scene, going going back to the previous scene with Elizabeth, I think that that scene, the part where he's like, oh, I gained my sanity at great cost, I think part of it might be kind of me projecting from the book, because in the book, it's much more emphasizes yo him just like, 01:01:32.34 Moxie Wayne's working on the monster, like not sleeping, not having any, that sort of thing. So I think maybe I'm somewhat projecting from the book where like he truly is kind of experiencing some madness to this where it's much more just a smokescreen. 01:01:43.93 Jala Yeah. 01:01:48.02 Jala Right, right. And that's that's fair because like in the original, like he is obsessed night and day and doesn't do anything else. And like Ryn subsists off iced coffee. Sorry, I had sorry i had to 01:02:01.05 Ryn Don't drag my iced coffees into this. 01:02:02.94 Jala i am i I am an iced coffee connoisseur, so i'm I'm right there with you. Anyway, ah so yeah, yeah, yeah. um But yes, yes, ah he does. 01:02:14.89 Jala But also something else to think about too in this particular scene, much as Victor says, no, i don't want to do that. At the same time, without Harlander, how is he going to make another lab to be able to get resources to do this anyway like he doesn't it's it's different than in the original book where the ask isn't so hard for him to come up with because he didn't have special conditions and a financial backing and all this other shit he made it in his basement you know like whatever but like you know here it's like no like he he can't but for a bunch of actual different reasons but like you know like that that that's not talked about but 01:02:43.22 Moxie Right, yeah, yeah. 01:02:55.00 Moxie I do have to say i would love to see someone give Del Toro much more modest budget, but make like 90 minute or something. 01:03:01.43 Ryn Thank you. 01:03:06.59 Moxie Just like, what would your take have been on the ah ah the Bride of Frankenstein movie? ah i would I would just love to see what what he would have come up with in in the you know for a female Frankenstein. 01:03:14.04 Jala Yeah, I... Yeah, 01:03:23.32 Moxie Or, you know, mean, female creature. 01:03:23.35 Jala yeah, yeah. Yeah. um Yeah. I don't know. Like, i I don't think that's something he would ever do because he likes the original, but like, yeah, it would be fun. 01:03:32.06 Moxie Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I realize that. Yeah, yeah. 01:03:35.72 Jala It would be a ah fun what if for sure to see what he would do with that. But like, you know, really he already did because he made Elizabeth, you know, such an homage to the Bride of Frankenstein you know movie in terms of like the dress design is exactly like so. 01:03:46.90 Ryn Mm-hmm. 01:03:48.44 Moxie That is true. That is true. 01:03:53.03 Jala And it's on her wedding day and all of it. We're getting there. We're getting there. We're not there. 01:03:57.96 Moxie Mm-hmm. 01:03:58.67 Jala We'll get there. So, ah yeah, Victor, we're we're still talking, of creature and Victor talking. So Victor asked, then what? Procreation, reproduction, death, begetting death, begetting death. 01:04:11.64 Jala And so so from that, all I can say is apparently he made the creature anatomically accurate. yeah Because that's that's apparently... 01:04:20.98 Moxie Like I said, we're back to young Frankenstein. 01:04:22.97 Jala Yeah, so, uh-huh. And the the creature says, i am obscene to you, but to myself I simply am. And this is another one of, like, i'm I'm quoting the things that everybody quotes here so people know where the lines are coming from. 01:04:31.81 Moxie Great. 01:04:36.41 Jala So, um... and Victor insists that he leave and says that he will never make another creature. And he turns to the mirror to fix his cravat or whatever he's doing. And the creature comes up behind him. I love this part so much because like, it's, it's like the, the kind of ah rage that's about to come out that that's like, you know, rumbling in Jacob Elordi's voice as he's there and he's leaning on other, each side of victor hoveRyng over him and talking to him just like it's it's this like anger and condescension and disgust that's just 01:05:13.58 Jala palpable that's fantastic and he says then it is still all about your will victor well that horrible horrible will that birthed me condemns me now he turns victor around grabs him by the shirt front and drags him the miracle is not that i should speak but that you would ever listen and then he throws victor across the room crashing through breaking the bedpost onto the floor and um 01:05:43.03 Moxie great great scene and great delivery yeah yeah and i love i love the callback to elizabeth talking about like will with the butterfly and the the creature now being like yeah that's that's what it comes down to is yo know it was enough for you to create me but not enough for you to you know take care of me 01:05:43.90 Ryn I love that line. i love it. 01:05:44.98 Jala Uh-huh. i I fucking love it. That whole scene is so great. Mm-hmm. 01:05:56.74 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:06:07.81 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:06:08.99 Ryn I think i'm also that I just remember just that line that the miracle is not that I should speak, but that you should would ever listen. I think for anyone in the audience who ever had any kind of family generational trauma, you're just you just get it. You so you understand completely what he means by that. 01:06:27.19 Jala absolutely. 01:06:27.88 Moxie Yeah. 01:06:28.86 Jala So, ah like, the the metal bedposts clang, clang as he slams through them and hits the floor. Elizabeth looks up from the leaf, heaRyng the noise down the hall. The creature stalks across the room. 01:06:41.75 Jala If you are not to award me love, then I will indulge in rage. He picks up Victor and throws him again. And mine is infinite. Yes. And he throws him into like this big cabinet that goes crashing. And then William now, who is downstairs with guests, here's the ruckus. And then like he and a bunch of men come running upstairs as well. 01:07:05.94 Jala Elizabeth gets there first because she's just down the hall. She bursts in and sees the creature, not even paying any attention to Victor because who cares about him? and she rushes up. 01:07:16.82 Jala It's you. She begins to sob, touching his face and leaning up to embrace him. And right about that time, Victor pulls out a pistol from, i guess, from the the cabinet or something. 01:07:26.94 Jala I think it was like a gun case maybe. And he pulls out a pistol, warning Elizabeth to move. 01:07:31.74 Moxie Mediocre white men with guns has always been a problem. 01:07:35.77 Jala Right, right. So um he warns Elizabeth to move and she turns to see and see what's going on and doesn't know that the creature is immortal and the bullets not going to actually kill him, but she puts herself in front of the creature. um and is shot by Victor. And the creature carefully puts pulls her over to the bed and lays her gently down when William and the men arrive. 01:08:01.56 Jala And Victor claims that the creature attacked her. And that's why you know she's bleeding now because she she was attacked by the creature. And then all the men start rushing the creature back. 01:08:13.82 Jala who then shakes everybody off, just throwing people left and right. But William happens to go flying directly into a solid marble pillar and cracks his noggin so bad that he's he's in a dire state over there. The creature picks up Elizabeth and she whispers, take me with you. 01:08:31.64 Jala And he carries her down the stairs and out of the house. walking off into the wilderness. So he's carrying the bride while everyone in the wedding party is screaming and staying away. The women have veils over their faces, looking like ghosts, all weaRyng white. And yeah, everything is slowed down. The little pedals are floating in the air. And it is actually Jacob Elordi carrying actual Mia Goth down the stairs. He did the whole scene for all of the different takes and and did every single one of them, you know, with, with her. 01:09:02.42 Jala yeah And, you know, that's that's pretty cool. They did make a dummy for him to carry, but he didn't even he was like, no, let's just take actually her. And um that on top of the heavy furs that Mike Hill guessed weighed about 100 pounds. 01:09:13.88 Moxie It's cool. 01:09:18.52 Jala That means that he's carrying like he's he's basically just picked up two plates. If if you are a weightlifter, basically picked up two plates, you know, and and is walking down the stairs multiple times with that much weight, like just farmers carrying it down the stairs. Like, wow, man. ah So so, yeah, he he didn't fall any of the times that they did the takes. He just stumbled a little bit at the very end of the last take. 01:09:44.31 Jala So. um this This particular scene is very moving because if you didn't already get the whole Bride of Frankenstein memo, you know it here because she's bleeding, which has revealed that the dress looks like ribs and you know she's in his arms in her wedding dress being carried across the threshold by the creature. 01:10:06.46 Jala so Any other notes about that before I move on to what Victor is doing? No? Okay. Victor checks on William and says that he can save William. 01:10:19.35 Jala From what? You? I've always feared you. You are the monster. And then William dies. So... 01:10:25.55 Moxie I'm so glad William gets at least one good line. Yeah. 01:10:30.01 Ryn Yeah, like a mic drop. Imagine like that being the last thing you say and then just like dying. 01:10:31.48 Jala Right. Yeah. 01:10:34.07 Moxie Yeah, 01:10:34.39 Ryn Amazing. 01:10:35.64 Jala Well, I mean, like, that's the thing that we all knew that everybody said about, you know, the the Frankenstein, like in general, you know, if if you hear one thing from anyone, it's, well, really the monster is is the doctor who made him, not the creature. 01:10:42.55 Moxie yeah. yeah 01:10:50.00 Jala And that's the thing everybody says. And William, the one who loved him most, is the one to say it. You know, like, that's that's pretty good. 01:10:57.85 Moxie Mm-hmm. 01:10:58.51 Jala So Victor grabs the shotgun off of the wall and then staggers after the creature. because of course he's got his prosthetic leg and he's stumping along. So um his prosthetic, it is my understanding, is is kind of like a, a ah it's got some metal on it, but it's also got like wood. So it's kind of clunky. It's it's not as good as like a modern prosthetic would be. 01:11:21.30 Jala So ah the creature ends up, but you know, walking off with Elizabeth through the snow, lays Elizabeth down on a slab of stone in a snowy cave. And she has a monologue now. 01:11:33.62 Jala I never belonged in this world. I sought and longed for something I could not quite name. But in you, i found it. To be lost and to be found, that is the lifespan of love. 01:11:45.97 Jala And in its brevity, its tragedy, this has been made eternal. Better this way, to fade, with your eyes gazing upon me. 01:11:59.61 Moxie Okay, can we Are we... It's been a... That is the most, like, goth poem I've ever heard. 01:12:10.14 Jala ah Right. 01:12:11.77 Ryn Yeah, it's it's it's it's like sitting in a cemetery on the weekend with the cure playing, like writing in your journal. 01:12:16.87 Jala All right. 01:12:17.61 Ryn But I love it. 01:12:18.40 Moxie Yep. 01:12:18.73 Ryn Even like it was like a little, it's, yeah, it's it's it's perfect in that sort of sense where it is almost... 01:12:19.13 Moxie Oh, yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. 01:12:25.78 Ryn almost a little too much, but given it's given the context and it's in the world and through the lens of GDT, i was like, this is perfect. 01:12:32.44 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 01:12:33.78 Ryn And we she already has all this sort of coding for, for like, um like being sort of like this moth or butterfly flutteRyng about. 01:12:42.02 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:12:42.01 Ryn So like, almost like she, knew she knew her existence was going to be this fleeting sort of flutteRyng thing. um So that's kind of what I got from it. 01:12:50.49 Moxie One also like 01:12:50.54 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:12:54.10 Moxie she's not literally, or even close to literally saying this, but for, for sake of easy paraphrasing, she's almost innately saying like, oh yeah, it's super cool to be able to die. 01:13:05.43 Moxie And like, he's like stuck here. Like she's not, you know I mean, she's saying that in like a weird way, but like, 01:13:08.85 Jala Right. I know that's not what she's saying, but also, yeah right, right. I mean, like, that's something that underlines, like, for the creature who is in the middle of his grief right now, like, he's probably underlining for him that feeling that i I can't follow you, you know, I can't follow you into death. 01:13:26.07 Jala and And that's that's pretty rough. So um something that I enjoy about this movie is that the leading later lady is first enamored of the rock star ah Victor, you know, but then ends up with a fellow weirdo and with the creature. And, you know, and I like that a lot. 01:13:43.54 Jala in the original screenplay of this the creature has some lines for Elizabeth duRyng her death scene as well so he talks and in the movie it's kind of weird because like when I was watching it and compaRyng the screenplay I'm like oh yeah that's right he doesn't talk at all when she's talking she's he's just there to listen to her and like be a receptacle for her last moments um 01:14:03.32 Ryn It's because he's a feminist. He he listens when women talk. 01:14:05.53 Jala Right. Right. Well, I mean, like the lines that he has are only around what she's doing and like what probably when she's gasping for air whatever. But but anyway, Victor follows the footsteps, the bloody footsteps in the snow to the cave and sees Elizabeth's corpse. The creature says she is gone and I long to follow her. 01:14:28.79 Jala He attacks Victor, and this is the point where he gets really violent because he's mad. Like, mad, mad. i mean, like, he was throwing Victor around earlier because he was mad, but now he's even angrier because she died, and it's it's Victor's fault. So he slams him into the wall and then comes up, rushes up behind him, and then flicks his thumb across his across Victor's nose and just breaks the shit out of it, just like... 01:14:54.10 Jala and throws him to the ground. I will make you bleed. I will make you humble. You may be my creator, but from this day forward, I will be your master. 01:15:04.82 Jala So ah this line made me think originally that he was going to manipulate Victor into being a little puppet. You know, that's what I thought. I was like, oh, is he going to like use Victor, you know, to to do his bidding now? 01:15:16.66 Jala Is that what we've got going? But then he ends up running off and then expecting Victor to follow like a puppy. And that's what he meant. But like at first I was like, oh, shit, is this going into a different direction than I thought? 01:15:24.10 Moxie Yeah. 01:15:27.50 Jala But it it wasn't. It was it was going. 01:15:28.77 Moxie Well, in the books, the the creature is much more manipulative in his revenge against ah Victor. 01:15:30.20 Jala yeah 01:15:34.14 Jala Yeah, exactly. ah Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. That's why I was like, oh man, is that what we've got going on? i mean, because I know that that's that's in the creature's DNA in terms of like his character from from the original novel. 01:15:46.25 Jala But yeah, ah that's not what's going on here though. But in the original screenplay, ah the creature fucks up Victor's nose specifically to take his beauty from him. He says that. 01:15:57.06 Jala And he also cracks some of Victor's teeth and tears them out of Victor's mouth. 01:16:02.59 Moxie Thank 01:16:04.09 Jala And then he throws them on the ground and then Victor picks them up and carries them with him along with his like coins and shit. So like in this scene in the Arctic, um like you will notice ah when we get to that part when he's he's buying stuff from like the trader, ah he dumps out his money i and then he picks some stuff up. That's his fucking teeth. He's picking his teeth up. 01:16:27.89 Jala So... I don't know if he's thinking he's going to get them put back in or something. I don't know why he's carrying them around with him, but whatever. So yeah, like, but, but in the original, like the original screenplay, it was way more violent actually. 01:16:42.65 Jala So Victor then chases the creature screaming, but there is no screaming sound. You just see the music and the VO, the blood all over his face and everything. ah And the the VO is the creature describing what happened from there. 01:16:57.24 Jala And then we switch to the Arctic. Victor is on a dog sled. He stops into a lodge asking to buy ammunition and to sharpen his knife. And In the original, the shopkeep offers Victor a Bible with his dynamite. 01:17:10.49 Jala And he also... Yeah, and then... 01:17:12.16 Ryn That's funny. 01:17:12.57 Jala Yeah, somebody put... ah He also buys powdered milk. 01:17:14.87 Moxie That was me. 01:17:15.67 Jala Yeah, okay. 01:17:16.15 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 01:17:16.44 Jala Yeah. 01:17:16.79 Moxie i 01:17:20.18 Moxie Again, this was one that kind of made me feel bad for Victor, that just like, after all this, he's kind of just like a five-year-old. 01:17:30.07 Jala Yeah. 01:17:30.36 Moxie um Again, like he isn't. 01:17:30.67 Jala He's still... Still a five-year-old. Yeah. 01:17:32.95 Moxie Yeah, yeah, like obviously isn't. But like, I'm like, oh, that's that's kind of sad. 01:17:37.82 Jala Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, then we get Victor at his camp. Uh, and by the way, like when we see Victor and he's going in to get all of this, these supplies, he's got like a full beard on his face and he looks like half crazy. He looks like ah a mountain man. doesn't look like, you know, like the baron, the fancy looking guy that we've seen this whole time. He looks like, you know, some kind of, some kind of wild man out in the woods. 01:18:01.24 Jala So, uh, 01:18:01.78 Moxie I mean, realistically, there is no way that Victor can survive in the Arctic. Like, no way. 01:18:08.56 Ryn Oh, God, no. 01:18:08.79 Moxie my 01:18:09.18 Jala no 01:18:09.19 Ryn Yeah. 01:18:09.50 Moxie My headcanon on this is that the creature's already decided he needs to break the cycle of violence. And actually, like, every time Victor passes out from exposure, the creature just, like, goes in and revives him. And it's like, eventually you're going to get this and, like, become not an awful person. That's my headcanon. 01:18:31.45 Jala I mean, like that, that would kind of flow with how GDT's, you know, creature is. Although like, you know, we still got that moment coming up ahead where like, it's really like the the big one. 01:18:40.18 Moxie Oh, yeah, yeah. 01:18:42.13 Jala But so we, we cut to Victor at his camp, the dogs start barking and he grabs his shotgun. And then as the creature reaches into the tent, Victor shoots his hand off and you see the hand go, who you know, like with, with like a little bony finger and another fingers flopping in the wind or whatever. 01:18:59.24 Jala And then it disappears. And as he's cow you know just kind of ah coweRyng there in the tent, he's looking around, not sure where the creature's gonna come from. And the creature ends up grabbing ah Victor out of the tent from the rear, dragging him off by the heel of his foot. 01:19:16.95 Jala And he says, you only listen when I hurt you, and then growls and breaks Victor's ankle. So, snap. ah He is then stabbed through the hand by Victor, who takes the knife and and plunges it. 01:19:32.92 Jala And then he pulls the knife out and stabs Victor in the chest with it. He's like, well, and the thing is, is that, like, when he's doing it, he's looking at it in his hand, and he's like, it looks like he's irritated, you know? 01:19:39.19 Moxie Which is such a power play. 01:19:47.57 Jala And he's just like... Fucking come on, man. And then pulls it out and just, okay. you You want to pull a knife on me? That was your mistake, guy. Why did you do that? 01:19:57.69 Ryn I also think it's it's like in a way the creature is sort of like, this is clearly the only language that this man understands. 01:19:58.23 Jala What? 01:20:03.22 Jala That you know. 01:20:04.31 Moxie Oh, yeah. Yeah. 01:20:05.14 Jala Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um yeah, it's it's this whole thing. And then he finds the dynamite on Victor's belt and says this. You put your faith in this. 01:20:16.89 Jala You think this will unmake me. Light it then and hope that it does. But if it does not, I will come for you again. light it you know so victor does so as he's being screamed at he's shaking he's like oh god dynamite i have a broken leg oh my god you know and uh anyway he he lights the dynamite the creature standing there and then he pulls down the the creature pulls down his mask and smiles with this devilish smile at victor and says now 01:20:50.26 Jala run and victor is it's so cool it's so cool and like that that smirk on his face is so good and victor staggers off as the creature is holding the dynamite behind yeah between his hands like he's praying in the original screenplay the creature explodes and then tells victor to run while he's exploded and standing there ah i'm alive 01:20:52.15 Moxie That's good. 01:20:53.11 Ryn So badass. Yeah. 01:21:16.02 Jala run you know so I mean either one of those is is cool either one of those is cool uh-huh 01:21:16.63 Moxie Also very cool. 01:21:21.78 Moxie So I really like um the aftermath of the dynamite scene where where the camps all wreck that sort of thing just for, and I think this is at least fairly reasonably intended to be. 01:21:35.79 Moxie It reminds me a lot of the final scene scene of Carpenter's The Thing where they've like blown the whole place up or just laying in the Arctic. 01:21:41.95 Jala uh-huh oh yeah 01:21:42.79 Ryn Mm-hmm. 01:21:45.82 Jala Right. I'm sure that that DNA is there for a reason because, you know, GDT loves his his creature features. So, yeah, the dynamite explodes and he's still standing there. 01:21:57.72 Jala So there you were broken and discarded and I alive again. We see his f his flesh just healing and mending before our eyes. A little bit on his face, but you've still got like the exploded one eyeball just kind of in nothing, just like meat and everything there. 01:22:17.82 Jala um So we switch back to the present in the captain's cabin as the creature is pacing around the room. And here we are, spent and done. No more in us to give nor take. 01:22:31.03 Jala Victor realizes his error and reaches for the creature who looks down at his grasping hand as Victor apologizes. You will go now, creator. Fade away. 01:22:42.65 Jala It will all be a brief moment. The tide that brought me here now comes to take you away, leaving me stranded. Victor says, forgive me, my son. And here's the first time he acknowledges any, any, you know, culpability for anything. 01:23:00.92 Jala And if you have it in your heart, forgive yourself into existence. If death is not to be, then consider this, my son, while you are alive, what recourse do you have but to live? 01:23:08.13 Ryn Thank you. 01:23:16.70 Jala And then at this point I'm like, but Victor's still going to Victor because Victor's asked the creature to say his name one more time, the way he did when it meant everything to him. And I really thought that he was going to say, give my name back to me. 01:23:31.10 Jala And then Victor would turn around and say, and I give it to you. And then like, give the name to to the creature. I thought that's what was going to happen. He was going to get his name. 01:23:38.71 Moxie That would be cool. 01:23:39.88 Jala That's what I thought was going to happen. And then no, Victor's just being Victor. He wants... you know The creature to give the name back to him because my father gave me that mean name and it didn't mean anything to me, but it means something because you said it. 01:23:53.05 Jala And that's it. and And then he dies. And then the creature kisses um ah Victor's forehead and then cries. Perhaps now we can both be human. 01:24:04.02 Jala And the captain shoos the men away and tells everybody that the creature can leave in peace. And as the creature gets off the ship, he frees it from the ice and the captain tells the men that they will sail home. 01:24:15.45 Jala The creature is last seen walking across the frozen waste as the sun rises. He takes off his hood and spreads his arms, crying in the sunlight as he bows his head. In the original screenplay, the creature actually just like runs off into the sun. 01:24:30.13 Jala He just, whee, flies up. 01:24:34.87 Ryn Yeah. 01:24:35.62 Jala That's not as affecting as as like what we've got here with like the last moment of like his his crying face with a smile as he bows his head. And then we get the Lord Byron quote, and thus the heart will break, yet brokenly live on. 01:24:51.54 Jala So um the Lord Byron quote, ah go listen to the episode about the book to listen to the tea about Mary Shelley and Lord Byron and how she kind of love-hated him, ah depending upon what part of her life we're talking about, because she loved and hated that man. 01:25:08.21 Jala So, ah but when she... 01:25:09.62 Moxie He was very flawed 01:25:09.78 Ryn I think a lot of people did. 01:25:11.13 Jala Yeah. Well, and and when she was, when she was at the point where she was dying, she did speak well of him. 01:25:12.25 Moxie man 01:25:17.85 Jala So like, you know, a lot of people were like, is this even like, is this ah okay to put this Lord Byron quote in here? But like, you know, ultimately, you know, at the end of her life, she did still think of him in a loving manner as, you know, like a a treasure, you know, national treasure, Lord Byron, who also fucked a lot of people over, including her. 01:25:39.13 Jala But 01:25:39.89 Moxie So i I had heard some people complain that this and ah when when the creature's were reading Ozymandias, you know, just the fact that, like, none of Shelley's stuff actually shows up. 01:25:54.46 Moxie Although I feel like if that was a specific statement that Del Toro was trying to do with not having, you know, any lines from the original, maybe also felt that way with, like, having the creature read one of her poems or you know something like that but I have heard some people make that criticism oh yeah yeah 01:26:13.85 Jala Well, here's the thing. Shelley herself infused all of her friends, like all of her buddies and her husband and everything into her work. Like she lifted part of Paradise Lost and put that in to her thing. 01:26:28.06 Jala She lifted some of Percy's work and put it in there. She put some of Byron's stuff in there. 01:26:32.62 Moxie yeah 01:26:33.66 Jala Polidori's stuff. Is it like, there's a lot of different people who like she puts references or she puts quotes in there and, you know, has these things. in throughout the whole thing in her original work. 01:26:44.82 Jala So like she was are already always bRynging along the entire crew with her. 01:26:49.40 Moxie That is true. That is true. 01:26:50.27 Jala So, like, GDT is trying to respect Mary Shelley, but also he's not trying to remake, ah like, make Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. 01:26:50.76 Moxie Yeah. 01:26:58.67 Jala she He's making GDT's Frankenstein. 01:26:59.74 Moxie Right. 01:27:01.03 Jala So he doesn't want to pull all of her quotes. she He wants to make it his version, but he's also honoRyng the fact that she bRyngs all of her buddies with her, you know, and and putting them in there. 01:27:12.54 Moxie Yeah, yeah. 01:27:13.07 Jala That's my read on it anyway. But, you know, like, other people will feel whatever they're going to feel. So... 01:27:18.36 Moxie Yeah, yeah, totally. 01:27:20.18 Jala Yeah, so what do you think about the ending here with with Victor's sudden, like, like you can see it in the way that Oscar Isaac is acting, where like you can see like he realizes he fucked up and he's trying to make amends the way that he can, which is not very much because he's only got a few minutes, you know? 01:27:37.91 Jala But what do all think? Ryn, it's been a minute since you talked. 01:27:42.33 Ryn Yeah, no, I mean, i I first, I will say that when I first saw the movie in theaters, my first gut reaction to that scene was that Victor is being self-serving again. He just does not want to die. 01:27:54.42 Ryn he wants to die being forgiven by somebody. 01:27:57.06 Jala Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 01:27:57.46 Ryn um But when i when I watched it again, i actually felt a little more sympathetic in that, okay, maybe it just did take all of this for him to actually put perspective on things. 01:28:09.43 Jala hu 01:28:09.81 Ryn um And I think more importantly, whether or not Victor was being selfish or not or whether he he was being authentic in in you know his acceptance of of his creation at the very end. 01:28:24.03 Ryn It ultimately, I think at that point, the movie is no longer about Victor. It's about the creature and what the creature needs to move on and to live. 01:28:28.09 Jala Right. 01:28:30.43 Ryn um So I thought it was a very beautiful scene. i remember I remember myself and just the whole theater kind of just like sitting. I mean, a lot of people kind of sit through credits, but I remember just like this weird kind of quietness for a few minutes where people just kind of like sat there and were like, wow, that was that was a lot. 01:28:41.58 Jala Mm hmm. 01:28:46.89 Jala Mm hmm. 01:28:47.13 Ryn um So yeah, no, I thought it was beautiful. 01:28:49.87 Jala Mm hmm. 01:28:50.59 Moxie Yeah, it really has... 01:28:56.02 Moxie From the perspective of something that Hollywood puts out, it has a very strange ending. ah you out be in In the fact that like kind of the conclusion is what existentialism... You know what mean? like yo there There is... 01:29:12.25 Moxie like There is a a happy ending, but there's also, in in a sense, no resolution. you know like 01:29:18.04 Jala Right. 01:29:18.97 Moxie the victim the the The creature is now going to have to learn how to live life. and um Exactly. 01:29:23.93 Jala Right. 01:29:24.06 Ryn Yeah, well, the creature himself is not going to have a resolution. 01:29:26.65 Jala Right. 01:29:26.62 Ryn so it's, yeah. 01:29:27.74 Moxie exactly so yeah I thought that was really cool to see. 01:29:31.86 Jala And it's markedly different than what we have in the original novel because the original novel after Victor dies, the creature says, you know, feels all this guilt about everything that he's done because he he's an active aggressor in that. 01:29:46.09 Jala And then he tells the captain that he's going to go out into the Arctic wasteland and go kill himself is what he's going to go do. He's going to go die on the ice somewhere is what he does. So this is also a marked difference from the original novel because he's You know, the creature isn't like, yes, the creature has enacted some violence here or there, but he has not been the manipulative aggressor in this movie. So like he doesn't have stuff to atone for to where he has to try to kill himself. Although he is still trying to kill himself this whole time. Like he's like, please just end my life, Victor. Come on. If you can do it, blow me up. You think that's going to work? Okay. This is the strongest thing that you've got and it still won't kill me. 01:30:31.06 Jala I just can't die. I can't die, you know, and like um the horror and the kind of penance that he's got is the rest of his life ahead of him, I guess, you know, because like a lot of GDT stuff is about like the horror that is immortality, you know, like ah Kronos and Pinocchio and other stuff like they all cover the same topic. 01:30:53.10 Moxie It's not like someone here writes a web comic that you know deals with some of those themes. 01:30:58.84 Jala I know, I know. i was I was really restraining myself from being like, and then that part when Elizabeth and the creature were talking in the cave and then because Cass and Eli and, you know. Yeah. 01:31:14.01 Jala Yeah. 01:31:14.37 Ryn That's very funny. 01:31:15.16 Jala Right. 01:31:15.64 Ryn Yeah, know I mean, it's it's it's an eternal, i think it's such a human theme. I mean, it across any kind of genre, whether it's fear of death or fear of living, I mean, it's, Del Toro does it well. 01:31:21.05 Jala Right. 01:31:28.72 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:31:29.29 Moxie Yeah. 01:31:29.78 Jala Yeah, yeah. So we can sidle on to talking about some themes. I have a few themes and some random notes, and we can talk about these. If y'all have other things that are not written down, please feel free to drop them. But first one, paradiselost.txt. That's this movie. um Victor is a Paradiselost-style Luciferian rebel figure that goes against the conventions and wisdom of the academy and the church alike. And his entire motivation is to one-up his father, whom he deeply criticizes. This is precisely what Lucifer is doing in Paradise Lost. 01:32:02.39 Jala And as a result of this transgression, everybody he comes in contact with suffers repercussions. And At the start, he's portrayed as a charming James Dean type character who then comes into his own as a rock star composer, artist, genius, and then devolves from there into quixotic madness. 01:32:25.14 Jala So ah Victor disrupts the natural order by removing the woman from the act of procreation. This is also where the nurtuRyng comes from primarily in the culture in which he was raised, which means... that he is in fact in effect making this creature that he finds himself deeply inept at caRyng for. 01:32:44.02 Jala and you know he he can't take care of this creature successfully. So note that it's not, of course, impossible for a man to be nurtuRyng, but Victor specifically never absorbed any of the affection, only the corporal punishments and things like that. He doesn't know how to Like as much as he adored his mother, he wants to be mothered. He doesn't want to have to be motheRyng to anyone, you know? 01:33:08.61 Moxie Yeah, this movie would have been much different if he had just like handed the creature off to like William. 01:33:08.92 Jala So, 01:33:16.58 Jala Right. Let William take care of it. 01:33:17.77 Ryn Mm-hmm. 01:33:18.76 Jala And oh my God, a different, like William and Elizabeth can just raise, raise the creature. And there we go. There's the happy ending we never got. Right. Or just let, let the blind man live and and he will just live in the the forest with the blind man forever. 01:33:30.19 Moxie Yeah. 01:33:32.93 Jala That's fine. 01:33:33.62 Moxie so So one of the... 01:33:33.82 Jala So. 01:33:38.74 Moxie one One of the things that for me, sorry, i'm I'm making sure this isn't covered on one of the others. One one of the things for me that was kind of a big takeaway for this is I found it really interesting the perspectives on religion that GDT presents here. 01:33:56.06 Jala Mm hmm. 01:33:58.12 Moxie You know, as someone who grew up in a very, very conservative Christian background and then, you know, went to school for engineeRyng, you know cares about science, yeah all that stuff. um I really like, for example, Elizabeth's um oh kind of arc of like the idea that science in the natural world is how you know God. 01:34:24.50 Moxie um Similarly, Victor's, especially near the end, once the creature gets more philosophical, there's there's a whole question in theology of like, 01:34:37.72 Moxie what exactly did Jesus accomplish by dying on the cross? And one of the one of the potential like theological beliefs that's not popular now, but was a lot in the past is it's like, I don't speak Latin, Christus Victor. 01:34:55.13 Moxie And it's the idea that like what what Jesus ultimately accomplished was defeating death. 01:35:01.63 Jala Right. 01:35:01.94 Moxie And I feel like that really vibes with this in terms of like almost the story with and the fact that the creature can't die it's because almost victor didn't almost create death he almost more defeated or he didn't create life as much as he defeated death and maybe that was you know know i i guess what i'm saying it's just like i really like with the paradise lost and all this kind of the meta meditation on christianity from a radically different perspective than what you normally see 01:35:21.79 Ryn Mm-hmm. 01:35:36.28 Jala Well, and that actually kind of segues into the next thing that I had, which is God the Father. And Victor sees his father as a distant godlike entity that he wants to thwart. And the creature sees Victor as his everything, as his god essentially, and is rejected. 01:35:50.60 Jala And this eventually leads him to to want to overthrow Victor. But it's like this again, this is all related to like the Paradise Lost read of it. But like, you know, with what you're talking about, too, it all kind of comes into play with, you know, similar ideas. 01:36:02.30 Moxie Yeah, yeah, exactly. 01:36:04.18 Jala So yeah. So yeah, we also have generational trauma and boy, howdy do we. ah Victor blames his father as the root of all his woes. 01:36:10.65 Ryn You 01:36:15.13 Jala ah His father is absent because he's a surgeon, but Victor interprets this as his father hating him and his mother. ah His father is strict, but to a purpose. Victor is is to become a surgeon like him, and thus Victor must know everything immediately as you know people's lives are in his hands. 01:36:32.94 Jala So if he doesn't remember something, then that person dies as as a result of his his lack of knowledge. So ah he does use the switch, but not excessively. We already talked about this on the last episode, so I don't want to harp on it here. 01:36:47.05 Jala um 01:36:47.64 Moxie and wait It reminds me, and Greg, this quote I'm about to say kind of undermines whole surgeon thing, but in terms of that approach to teaching, it reminds me my very first day of of engineeRyng school. 01:36:54.89 Jala Uh-huh. 01:37:03.38 Moxie The professor starts it by saying, you know, telling the class, you know, do you know what the difference between a doctor and an engineer is? And he said, you know, when doctor messes up, ah people die. 01:37:16.63 Moxie When an engineer messes up, lots of people die. ah my point being not My point being, like, I definitely vibe with this idea of, like, as a professional, you must never fail because life is in your hands. 01:37:32.54 Moxie Like, I can i can vibe with that sort of teaching. 01:37:33.42 Jala Right. 01:37:36.18 Jala Right, right. So Victor thinks that his father killed his mother, but we don't actually know. We already went through that. Complications of the pregnancy, it's all behind closed doors. And given the high mortality rate of mothers in the 1800s, it's entirely possible that his father did everything. 01:37:52.95 Jala in his power and still failed. So ah Victor interprets his father's doting on William as favoritism because William is blonde like Leopold and is of a happier disposition. But, you know, again, he's taking on this, this role as the parent, the single caretaker of um William because the mother died. He's the only parent now. And, you know, that wasn't the case for Victor when Victor was little. So, you know, Claire was there. Claire could take care of him and, you know, whatever. 01:38:25.85 Jala So ah the creature ends up breaking the generational trauma cycle at the end by accepting Victor's paltry and frankly, inadequate apology and affection and forgives him. And that's the why that's that. That's why he is the only one able to witness the glory of a sunrise and to cry out of joy at being alive and, and, you know, feeling like the, the letting go of the burden, you know, um, it's important to note that Victor does not remember nor embody the the entirety of what his father was to him. 01:38:59.90 Jala ah he is only keeping and using the corporal punishment part, And he objectified his mother, but never absorbed any of her loving care. So, uh, you know, everything, everybody are objects means to an end. They aren't people that need to be like relationships that need to be cultivated, you know? 01:39:21.46 Jala So, so yeah, how about we talk about perspective and forgiveness 01:39:29.40 Jala So, um, Victor is perpetually blind to and deeply incurious of other people's perspectives. He, he says he wants to know what Elizabeth thinks, but does he really, you know? 01:39:41.92 Ryn That's a really good way of, and curious, that's a really good way to just say that. 01:39:44.58 Moxie Yeah. 01:39:45.66 Jala Yeah. 01:39:46.44 Moxie Yeah. 01:39:46.55 Jala And, uh, 01:39:46.84 Moxie And like, ultimately, he definitely does not love Elizabeth because he doesn't seem to care about her, like, ah you know, actually care about her. 01:39:56.79 Jala Right, right. He just wants like somebody there aligned with his vision, you know, to be around as a, as somebody to bounce stuff off of. Uh, this is also why he's estranged from his father, uh, why his attempted romance with Elizabeth fails and why he fails as a creator and a father, you know, cause he can't, he's not interested in the other party, whoever they might be like, he's he's just not, um, 01:40:21.98 Jala Forced at the end of his life to finally see another viewpoint when the creature tells his story, he realizes and admits to the many errors he committed out of pride. Victor's guilt is in Oscar Isaac's acting, not in his words, because he doesn't say anything about that. 01:40:38.17 Jala He is a parent who makes mistakes and silently goes about his actions without speaking of them. And, um, as somebody who had an old Cuban man for a dad, yeah. Like I had a lot of that not admitting mistakes thing, um, going on in my house for a bit. 01:40:54.68 Moxie This almost reminds me what we were talking about earlier with when he kind of tries to make up, quote unquote, with Elizabeth, where it's like, um I think Ren, you said this, like in some ways, ignoRyng it is almost worse, you know? 01:41:02.39 Jala Right. 01:41:10.97 Ryn Mm-hmm. Yeah. 01:41:11.46 Jala Mm-hmm. Well, and like, he's not even asking anything about like, or, or concerned really with what she's feeling. He's only going there because he wants absolution from her. 01:41:24.12 Moxie Exactly. Exactly. 01:41:25.24 Jala Like, again, it's again, it's a a means to an end. 01:41:25.60 Moxie So. 01:41:28.20 Jala He's not really, you know, curious at all about, about what is going to go on with her. i mean, if anything, he wants William and Elizabeth to be happy because they're going to be taking care of him. 01:41:34.58 Moxie I. 01:41:41.14 Moxie Yeah. 01:41:41.53 Ryn Right. 01:41:43.29 Moxie I. 01:41:43.16 Ryn Everything is self-serving in some way. 01:41:44.46 Jala Right. ahha 01:41:46.62 Moxie And i I feel like I could see this being something, though, that a lot of people kind of can identify with, of like parents 01:42:00.50 Moxie having to, you know, reconciling with parents, but that not always meaning that parents fully get things. 01:42:07.35 Jala right 01:42:10.35 Jala Yeah. So the last kind of theme that I wrote down was gender. So there's a lot of different things we can talk about with this. I mentioned before about Elizabeth and Victor and how one of the things that was cut out of the scene when they were dancing was the fact that she says to him um that, oh, I'm actually really good at taking the lead. If you'll let me, I can do that. 01:42:37.80 Jala it's usually the man's role, but I'm really good at that. And then he says, I would be happy to surrender and let's her take the lead and have the man's role when they're dancing. And like, you know, that's something that was cut out of the movie because like, that's not pertinent to what GDT wants to tell, but like, it's such a good character beat. And it's also part of the whole gendeRyness of it all in this, in this movie. 01:43:01.21 Jala Um, 01:43:02.07 Moxie Yeah, don't don't worry. That that version of the scene will be exhaustively covered on a o three 01:43:09.05 Jala ah 01:43:12.63 Jala So ah the creature was designed to be more androgynous, like the design of the creature initially was supposed to be that way, a mixture of masculine and feminine traits. And in the Arctic, he embodies more of a alpha male role, as much as I hate using those words, as a veritable monster, right? But for the rest of the time, he is, until enraged, very soft and gentle and kind and physically he is lanky and while his body is a man's his gaze and his touch appear to be sensitive and open ah which are considered womanly traits at that time period he delights in everything like a child at first and that freshness speaks of an innocence that men aren't supposed to have so ah you know one of the themes in frankenstein is the absence of bodily autonomy And also in Mexico, this is this is a little extra note about something that ties into GDT's life. In Mexico, there are patriarchal rules in schools that forbid deviation from traditional gender norms, so the boys aren't allowed to grow out their hair. So when the creature's growing out his hair and it gets really long, like that's also another... you know, gender, gender transgression that's going on there, kind of underlining his androgyny. 01:44:28.31 Jala And Elizabeth is a mixture of hard facts, scientist and aesthetic, literally cloistered before she appears in the movie. And she ends up in a nurtuRyng role in terms of her focus on the human cost of war, and her interactions with the creature, ah but she is the first person to show him tenderness and connect with him. and But she also argues with Victor and talks mostly about manly subjects for the most part when she's talking science and and war and and you know with the philosophy and things. And, you know, she went to the convent. 01:45:02.40 Jala ah We've learned in the original screenplay, she went to the convent because she wanted to have access to books to study. And she was sick of the, you know, like um whispeRyng words and the rumors and the gossip and shit because she was a girl trying to study these things. And that wasn't what women were supposed to study. they were supposed to study sewing and dancing and whatever. 01:45:24.50 Jala um Victor is masculine via dandyism. So that stronger masculine flavor acts as a patriarchy handed down in terms of how everybody responds to him. 01:45:36.84 Jala So, you know, like he is the the titular patriarchy that everyone's fighting, you know, destroy the patriarchy. The patriarchy is Victor. It's Victor. So and also, uh-huh. 01:45:47.98 Ryn It's also, I was going to say, it's such, I feel like, and now that I'm really kind of reflecting on this as a whole, um i i remember this scene where at first Victor is so thrilled to with the creature saying his name and utteRyng a word. 01:46:02.48 Jala Yeah. 01:46:02.83 Ryn And then Victor grows more and more just annoyed and just frustrated. 01:46:06.08 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:46:08.03 Ryn And that I think a part of it maybe even is like, Victor is masculine in such a thin, flimsy, sort of pathetic way. 01:46:16.82 Jala Yes. 01:46:17.25 Ryn and that he just like expects to be respected because of who he is and what he does. 01:46:22.06 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:46:22.17 Ryn And it has to be so enraging for him to see the creature who i think for a lot of the audience is like what masculinity should be, right? I mean, he's he's strong, but he's gentle. 01:46:31.61 Jala Right. 01:46:31.82 Moxie Mm-hmm. 01:46:33.89 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:46:33.90 Ryn um He's considerate, open-minded. And just to kind of see him, see this thing that's so unlike him he created this thing that he probably expected just to come out of the quote unquote womb being just like Victor to be like this sort of mirror image of him um to sort of be everything that he's really not. 01:46:50.77 Jala Mm-hmm. 01:46:54.14 Ryn And then also to kind of connect with Elizabeth so quickly because of everything, because this creature has everything that Victor lacks. There's a lot of really actually, when i when I was thinking about gender, I was thinking about the androgyny and this sort of you know quote unquote feminine aspects of the creature. 01:47:09.25 Ryn But now that I'm after this episode, I'm kind of reflecting on everything. and I think there's actually a lot of really interesting things and being said about masculinity and how the creature is is masculine or what masculinity should be in comparison to Victor. 01:47:16.72 Jala Yeah. 01:47:21.69 Jala Right. Well, and we have a lot of positive masculine roles here. We've got the creature's masculinity. We have the blind man's masculinity. We have William's masculinity. And they're all loving, loving, positive people, you know. 01:47:38.23 Moxie So that's actually um one of the things i really like in um Elizabeth, um kind of her talk talk with Victor is I don't remember exactly what she says, but you basically saying, like i choose a liz or I choose William over you because like William actually cares about me and like is a decent person and that sort of thing. like it's It's funny, it's so in Victor's face, but he's completely blind. 01:48:13.34 Jala Yeah. And then he's just like, how could how could you you know choose it and not choose me? And then again, like dumbfounded when Elizabeth is like, you know, ah has this connection with the creature immediately. And he's like, I can't believe you've got this connection with this creature. What the hell? Why are you attracted to him? you know, and he won't even call the creature him. 01:48:37.02 Jala yeah he He only uses he when somebody else uses he and then otherwise he says it. And so like completely, you know, acting very much like certain people in the populace. 01:48:50.68 Moxie Yeah, yeah, big, I mean, yeah. 01:48:53.98 Jala Yeah, yeah, rough stuff. So yeah, but like, ah also, um i mentioned it in the last episode where it was pertinent, but like, super like i I can't watch this movie without seeing the gayness between Victor and Harlander I just can't yeah I'm just like no I they if in in a different universe you know that that was a thing for them you know uh 01:49:10.30 Moxie Yeah. 01:49:17.66 Moxie And it's funny, because, like, Neither of them are healthy human beings, but like I could see that being an almost healthy couple. 01:49:23.19 Jala no no 01:49:27.70 Moxie don't know, just like they they are unhealthy in very similar ways that I feel like could work together. 01:49:34.26 Jala They carry similar baggage. 01:49:34.84 Moxie here he Yeah, yeah. 01:49:36.18 Jala They can handle each other's shit. 01:49:37.64 Ryn Mm-hmm. 01:49:38.08 Jala Yeah, for sure. And like, you know, the thing is, is that Victor loves power dynamics. And like on that one, he's on the receiving end of the power dynamic, but he likes to be on the other side of things. 01:49:51.13 Jala But, um you know, I i think... especially in the way that they treat each other, like Victor definitely still has like, um you know, more peculiar regard for Harlander because Harlander can, you know, stand up to Victor in a way that other people don't have the balls to do. 01:50:12.31 Jala And that's also what bRyngs him to liking Elizabeth too, is that, um you know, Elizabeth has more balls to stand up to him than William does or whatever. 01:50:24.02 Jala Like, You know, he just likes those strong personality types. You know, he seems like the type of person who would have, like, if he were to actually have any kind of romantic life, it would be like whirlwind, destructive fire trick drama bullshit is, is what I think. 01:50:38.05 Ryn Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 01:50:41.44 Jala And then like afterwards being like, well, clearly they didn't know what they were talking about, whoever it was, you know, like when they break up, you know, try as usual like spinning everything in this entire movie as somebody else's fault super narcissist this man so so yeah but 01:50:59.61 Moxie Big, ah big, ah unfortunately, Victor has big, ah nice guy in in air quotes energy. 01:51:07.13 Jala but ah Right. Right. So, so yeah, like ah what other stuff do we have on the table in terms of like cool themes or thoughts about, you know, like the overall stuff. 01:51:19.48 Jala I mean, like for me, the, the main thing that drew me into the movie, the first time I watched it was that generational trauma stuff because of everything with my dad and my dad passing last year and everything, this movie came at like just the exact time that I needed it to have the message that I needed it to have, you know, 01:51:36.86 Jala ah so So that's where it came, that's where it landed the strongest initially for me. 01:51:38.46 Ryn Mm-hmm. 01:51:41.62 Jala But what about y'all? 01:51:44.16 Ryn I think for me, and a lot of it goes to sort of that the ending with them the quote unquote forgiveness is is this sort of, i mean, and I would actually think it's probably funny for anyone who's going into this movie who's expecting a monster 01:51:57.67 Jala Right. 01:51:58.68 Ryn It has to be very, very um interesting. But um there this idea that the world, there's there's just so much to be so pessimistic about. um And I always say, you know, positivity is a choice in this active work And it's something you have to choose to do, knowing everything that's going on. 01:52:13.86 Jala Right. 01:52:16.66 Jala right 01:52:18.78 Ryn And it takes it's hard work. It takes work. And it's a choice you make. And the fact that that is the choice that this movie ultimately makes. That's really what I what I walked away with is is that. 01:52:30.62 Ryn the The creature sort of walks away from all of this being victimized over and over again, and being misunderstood over and over again, really having no, I mean, he's this immortal, ah strong being he could, he has no reason to be kind and gentle to others, but that's what he chooses at the end. Um, 01:52:49.59 Ryn and he gets what he needs from Victor's you know apology. And he says that that's enough for me. And I think there, um to Moxie, your point about um it's kind of an odd ending for a Hollywood movie anymore, that it it just ends so quietly and gently after being such a whirlwind of of emotions and trauma and set design, and costume design, that it ends so quiet and so gently and so optimistic. 01:53:14.62 Ryn um that's That's really what i took away and and why I just love the creature's journey in this movie especially. 01:53:21.66 Jala Well, and not only that, but we got this movie the same year that we got the Superman movie, which is got the same, like not the same message, but it's got a very similar take on masculine. 01:53:28.57 Ryn Yeah. 01:53:31.19 Moxie yeah yeah 01:53:33.12 Jala Like we've got more than one healthy masculinity movie coming our way with, you know, like a a softer, gentler, like kinder. look at stuff. And like, I love that because we need more of that right now, you know, for sure to to kind of counteract all of the poison and vitriol that's out there. 01:53:51.75 Moxie Yeah. 01:53:51.96 Ryn I think, yeah, it's it's the braver narrative choice, I think, is letting people live and choosing kindness. 01:53:54.04 Jala Right. 01:53:54.68 Moxie Oh yeah. 01:53:58.11 Ryn Yeah. 01:53:58.97 Jala Right, right. So, and that's, that's one of the things that drew me to this too, is I'm like, okay, Superman was already like, now it's one of my favorite movies because again, it came at a time that I needed it. And this movie came at a time that I needed it in the same year. And so like, I got two, two favorite movies now, you know, back to back pretty much. 01:54:17.78 Jala But Moxie, how about you? Like when you first saw this movie, what, I mean, I know you were partial to the original novel, but like, you know, what, what did you take out of it? 01:54:24.92 Moxie So, okay, so a couple couple of things. 01:54:26.03 Jala Uh-huh. 01:54:28.50 Moxie One, um in terms of, like, being being partial to the original novel, that sort of thing, like, I'm trying to think. 01:54:40.92 Moxie It's some sometimes, like, ah when you're doing art, it's more important 01:54:49.85 Moxie to Sorry, to to capture the ah a very Victor's statement, was it that everything I'm telling you is true, some of them are factual? 01:55:00.15 Jala Right. 01:55:00.25 Moxie I feel like as as I've sat with it, I feel like it very much actually, more than ah maybe any other adaptation I've seen, I think captures the truth and the message and the spirit of the original, even if it changes a lot. 01:55:16.57 Jala oh right 01:55:19.38 Moxie um And then I think one of the other big things, and Ren, you kind of touched on this, is... So I love i love love modern art, and like most of the anti-modern... Well, a lot of the anti-modern art sentiment is just like asshole, reactionary, right-wing people. 01:55:39.35 Moxie that That being said, like there's a certain degree that with modern art being... yeah And kind of kind of the modern kind of zeitgeist, that you know some of the dadism. 01:55:54.15 Moxie Anyways, the situationists, this idea, I guess what I'm saying is the idea of art that in a lot of ways is made just to be beautiful And I don't want to say this is just made to be beautiful, but like that is a core thing. And it feels like that also is something you don't exactly see as much in like works that are made in film that is made to be film, not just like, you know, Michael Bay movie or whatever. 01:56:28.27 Jala Right. 01:56:28.47 Moxie um i have no idea if I'm just rambling, if that makes any sense, but... 01:56:31.48 Jala No, no, I get it. Well, because like ah GDT's whole thing is that he loves film as someone who loves film. 01:56:42.81 Jala Like he, he makes film, but he loves the art of filmmaking. 01:56:44.23 Moxie Mm-hmm. 01:56:47.05 Jala And he just opened up like ah um a, a stop motion animation studio back in Mexico 01:56:53.40 Moxie Oh, love stop motion so much. 01:56:55.06 Jala And yeah, and you should watch, by the way, his Pinocchio. It's got the the guy who plays the blind man plays Geppetto in that. And so, yeah, it's it's worth a watch. But like, um you know, and it's got a lot of themes like this movie. So like if you like this movie, you'll like that movie. So ah anyway, so um like he he appreciates... 01:57:17.56 Jala film as an art form and he makes films not just because like he enjoys telling stories but just because he likes the craft that goes into it and he puts his office next to the art department so he's in everybody's shit all the time when he's making stuff. 01:57:35.45 Jala He's always around. He's actively editing every morning. Like he's, he's everywhere do it like involved with every department because he's involved in like every little bit of this process. 01:57:45.88 Jala Cause he just loves it. He loves it. And that's, that's he is making a film for film lovers from a film lover for film lovers who love the art of filmmaking. 01:57:53.60 Moxie Yes. 01:57:57.96 Jala And that's what you get here. so 01:58:00.54 Moxie well and I completely agree. and And with that, again, try to kind riff on something you were saying, Ren. One of the things i often heard like in the goth community, that sort of thing, is the idea that like goth isn't about darkness. It's about finding beauty in the darkness. And you you kind of touched on that. I really feel like it sticks the landing on that. 01:58:26.49 Jala Right, right. 01:58:28.06 Ryn Yeah, there's um actually with my in my writing for my comic, not that I want to bRyng it back to my comic, but in the next um in the next um in the next chapter, there's this really important question that one of the main character Cass asks the author is that what because she's an author? 01:58:34.36 Jala BRyng it back to your comic. 01:58:34.74 Moxie Do it. 01:58:35.93 Jala okay 01:58:46.06 Ryn What do you think is the most important part of a story? Is it the beginning or the ending? And she goes, well, I think it's neither. I think the most important part of us of a story is the meaning. um And i think I think to your point about what the goth community finds in darkness and what GDT finds and everything that inspires him is is he just has this beautiful way of sort of presenting his case for the meaning. 01:59:07.44 Ryn um And this this movie does it beautifully. 01:59:10.97 Jala Right. And. 01:59:11.64 Moxie to to make ah To make a bit, I assume that Cass' answer is, to me, they're equally unimportant because I'm illiterate. 01:59:19.38 Jala Right. 01:59:22.46 Ryn yeah if 01:59:23.35 Jala But, uh, yeah, so, so that's definitely, um, part of the whole thing is, is, you know, like, um, GDT is, is speaking beyond the film itself, but through this medium, you know for the reason of of presenting this meaning, this this what Frankenstein means to GDT is what this is. you know and And that's what we get because you know what it's meant to him, and he said this in some interview or another, 01:59:54.84 Jala has changed over time, but especially once he became a father and then he was having conversations with his grown up children and learning things like that's where everything finally clicked. And he was like, now I can make that movie. I can finally make the Frankenstein movie. I had to wait until this moment, you know, but it's it's it's is basically kind of like a biopic for him, sort of in in a way, you know. um But yeah, I wanted to talk about this and then talk about it and talk about it and talk about it for 7,000 hours because like not very many people have really landed well with this movie. 02:00:26.38 Jala Like it didn't do fantastically commercially. 02:00:28.74 Moxie Thank you. 02:00:29.62 Jala um And like a lot of people, I think, just have misconceptions of what they're going to go see when they go see this movie. They're expecting a universal monster film and that's not what this is. 02:00:41.14 Jala and 02:00:41.89 Ryn I think it'll be one of those movies in 10 years from now people are really talking about 02:00:43.74 Jala Right, right. Right. I mean, it's kind of like, so here's here's case in point, and I'm kind of burning cast for Nostalgia Marcanum. Go listen to that whenever that's out. um But like when I first watched Pan's LabyRynth, I hadn't seen anything from GDT before. Not one thing. And I didn't know anything about it. Didn't even see the trailer. Didn't know. 02:01:03.29 Jala Friend said, I want to go see this movie. Okay, cool. What is it? You know, ah it's a horror. Well, it's a horror kind of movie. Okay. It's a horror movie. Gotcha. Gotcha. And it's in Spanish. Okay, cool. 02:01:15.86 Jala You know, whatever. So we go and we're watching it and I left the theater and I'm like, that was really pretty, but it was real slow. And that wasn't scary. What I was confused. I was like, and I think a lot of what people find when they, they, and like, again, again like like later on, I came back to the movie and I'm like, oh, this is a bad-ass movie. But like, you have to go into any GDT jeg, not expecting anything. 02:01:41.56 Jala or expecting GDT to be GDT. But if you don't know what that means, you need someone to tell you before you go into the theater. So you know what you're prepared for. 02:01:51.65 Jala And I feel like that's that he's going to be one of those directors that yes, a hundred years from now, people will talk about how fantastic this man's work is, but like, you know, it may or may not reach the massive commercial audience that like other, you know, Michael Bay movies and things like that will do. 02:02:07.12 Moxie Right, yeah, yeah. 02:02:07.60 Jala um But it's reaching the people that it needs to reach. you know and more people will come to it over time and it is gonna absolutely be another cult classic movie eventually you know more people ah 02:02:19.83 Ryn I feel like people are, I'm saying just really now, people are starting to talk about Pacific Rim for what a wild, insane, brave, badass movie it was. 02:02:24.94 Jala okay 02:02:28.12 Moxie That is a movie I love. 02:02:30.01 Jala yeah that that was that was a fun movie yeah i know i know 02:02:32.50 Ryn i mean, that movie is insane. The fact that he got money to make that movie is great. 02:02:34.69 Moxie Well... 02:02:36.35 Ryn It's like a feat. But I feel like people I'm just starting to really kind of see people kind of like talk about that. And that movie is I don't i don't know how old that movie is now. 02:02:43.66 Jala We're not going to look it up because that'll give everybody anxiety except me. 02:02:44.06 Ryn Don't don't tell me. Don't tell me. Yeah. 02:02:46.54 Jala I don't care. 02:02:46.66 Ryn But it's been a little probably at least 10 years. 02:02:48.38 Jala Right. 02:02:48.62 Ryn Right. I don't know. 02:02:49.24 Moxie Yeah. I feel like, sorry, this is now a Pacific Rim episode. now um I feel like watching it, because I actually watched it for the first time recently, which is weird because I love Mecca and Kaiju and stuff like that. ah But I hope this will make sense from my neurodivergent way of explaining things. Like, watching the movie, I kept having these moments of like, I can't believe he's making such weird, in in some way you could almost say bad, like, writing decisions, except that they're actually amazing. 02:03:28.98 Moxie ah yeah you know Yeah, yeah, just there's so much stuff that's like, that is really weird, it doesn't make sense, well, it makes, you you know what mean, like, 02:03:29.78 Ryn There are the, and go ahead, sorry. 02:03:40.31 Ryn No, but it's like, it's, and I'll shut I'll shut up up a Pacific Rim, I promise. 02:03:44.33 Jala No. 02:03:44.35 Ryn But like everything that's ridiculous and in that movie is is a love letter to the things that he grew up loving, which are also ridiculous and poorly written, but we love them. 02:03:49.40 Jala Right. 02:03:49.59 Moxie Yeah. Yeah. 02:03:53.35 Ryn Anyways, I'll never forget what a bad review Pacific Rim from a major outlet that I read was like, this is so stupid. It's like watching, and it's like you being in a bathtub playing with your Godzilla and monster toys. 02:04:05.48 Jala That's why it's that. 02:04:05.66 Ryn And I'm like, how is that a bad thing? 02:04:06.98 Jala That's why it's so fun. 02:04:07.24 Ryn What did We've lost the plot, like but I feel like we're coming around. 02:04:09.85 Jala Right. 02:04:10.39 Moxie yeah yeah 02:04:10.61 Jala yeah 02:04:12.20 Ryn We're coming around. 02:04:12.66 Jala Right. And it it the thing is about GDT as a director is that he can put stuff where every single thing is infused with meaning and then he can also bang his toys together in the bathtub. 02:04:23.06 Jala So, I mean, like, you know, he, he, like ah part of the pitch for my friend telling me about Pan's LabyRynth he did Hellboy I didn't watch Hellboy but I was like I saw the trailers and that's a comic movie so he did a superhero movie and you're telling me this is horror and then I go see it and I'm like what the fuck was that like you know I I didn't know what it was because what I was what my expectations were set up to be before I walked in there were not what I got and like 02:04:42.11 Ryn Mm-hmm. 02:04:53.05 Jala you know I know DDT has had problems with how people have cut different things, like Crimson Peak, for example, they kept cutting that as like, it's a horror movie, but it's not, it's a romance, you know like a gothic romance thing, like so many of his things. And so it was you know given all these bad reviews because people were expecting it to be a horror jag and it wasn't. 02:05:12.76 Jala you know And things like that. 02:05:14.35 Moxie Yeah. 02:05:14.78 Jala So like, I know he's had that and that can definitely ruin movies for people like say, for example, I covered companion last year um on this podcast and that movies trailers were like, they made it look like a super horror movie and it's not, it's absolutely not. 02:05:32.31 Jala It's, it's so many more other things and there's so much dimension to it. And it's kind of like multi-genre, but it, it, it's kind of like a weirdo, like the GDT stuff is where it's like, you can't, 02:05:44.12 Jala stick it in just like a slot. It doesn't have a slot except for the GDT slot, you know, like that's that's the only place it fits. So 02:05:51.38 Moxie Also, how did I not know that he made Trollhunters? That was a great show. 02:05:56.16 Jala yeah, I never watched that. 02:05:57.25 Ryn Mm-hmm. 02:05:58.01 Moxie I did not realize that with him. it's it's It's quite good. 02:06:00.41 Jala Yeah, i well, he also did work on Lord of the Ryngs too. 02:06:01.56 Moxie It stands up. 02:06:05.58 Jala So, you know, like, so yeah he has done a lot. 02:06:08.95 Moxie No one's perfect. Oh, sorry. 02:06:10.55 Jala just Hey, hey, I like Lord of the Ryngs. Anyway. 02:06:15.64 Moxie I like Lord of the Ryngs. 02:06:15.92 Jala Okay, that's it. We, we've, well, you know, that's fine. 02:06:16.68 Moxie I don't like the movies. Sorry. 02:06:21.14 Jala Anyway, so, so yeah, we're, we're at three hours. We have talked way too much about, we we have lost the plot ourselves and we are now wandeRyng away. 02:06:29.56 Ryn Hehehehe. 02:06:30.22 Jala So let's just bRyng it back for one more moment and we will all spread our arms out in the sun. Okay. And, and maybe hopefully not cry, but like, you know, enjoy, enjoy the moment of, of, uh, doing all this. 02:06:42.88 Jala So, um, where in the world can people find you written? 02:06:49.78 Ryn um People can find my comic at www.neonpantheon.com. I update the comic every single Thursday. You can also find more about me on there. 02:07:00.54 Ryn You can also find me on Blue Sky at Rynbow. That's R-Y-N-B-O-W. Like rainbow, but my name. 02:07:09.75 Jala Yeah. And you can see Ryn's fantastic fashion that everybody tells them is so cool. And they're just like, no. 02:07:16.86 Ryn You can see my bad my bad financial decisions that I make and that everybody enables me to make more of. 02:07:22.39 Jala hey I think it's very funny because you post pictures of yourself and then you're like, do not perceive me. Pick a lane, okay? You know? 02:07:32.95 Moxie but 02:07:33.13 Jala Ha ha ha ha ha. ah Anyway, yes. So ah links to that will be in the show notes. And then Moxie, people can find you. 02:07:42.47 Moxie Duckfeed.tv on the the level. 02:07:45.92 Jala Yahoo! Also in Ryn's Discord. Ryn has a Discord. 02:07:49.46 Moxie yes 02:07:50.00 Jala ah We are all in there. And also in my Discord. So, yes. And as for me, you can find me anywhere I may be found @jalachan, including jalachan.place where you got this episode and all of the others. So, until next time, take care of yourself, remember to smile, and stop being a selfish asshole. 02:08:12.14 Ryn Bye. 02:08:13.32 Jala You're not a selfish asshole. I love you listeners. Bye. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]