Pre Zombification copy === Athena: [00:00:00] Have you been zombified by influence? Dave: Yeah. Everyone has, all the cool kids have Athena: influence, also known as a mation. I mean, I guess like influence is kind of like a huge thing in when comes to the psychology of zombification, right? Dave: Yeah. Uh, yeah. I mean it's, it's apparently it's zombify us all the time, right? People are actively using it to zombify us. We're getting, we're zombify ourselves without even knowing it. So, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. How about you? Athena: I love that part. Yeah. That I, I mean, so today, this episode that, that you guys are about to hear, I loved, I loved it. I especially loved this part, um, where Bob Chaldini is talking about how we can actually use these principles to, um, change our own. Behavior, our own preferences, our own [00:01:00] decisions in the way that we want. So basically you can like Zombify yourself. Bob: Yes. Dave: So, uh, welcome to Zombified by the way. I'm Dave. Yes. And Athena: who are you? I'm Athena. I'm Athena Actus. And, uh, this, this podcast is Zombified podcast. We are your source for fresh brains. That's Dave: right. And who is our guest today? Athena: Our guest today was, um, Bob Chaldini. Is Bob Cini. Um, was for us cuz we just recorded it. But for, for everyone who's listening, believe he's, it's in the future. . It's, you know, the whole tenses thing. It's hard to keep track of, uh, you know, but, but he's Dave: the one and only, right? He is the, it's a very rare, he's the, you know, to get Bob Chaldini. Bob: He's the, Athena: yeah, like the Bob C. He is the Bob Cini. I've been zombified by Bob Chaldini actually. Yes. I mean, the way that he talks about, you know, these psychological principles, his like vast data, bank data, bank of [00:02:00] knowledge of like all these studies. He is, uh, he's kind of amazing. Yeah, Dave: no, it is. It's ama and, and the principles have been, I mean, I've known them my whole life I guess. And so, um Athena: Right, cuz you grew up basically he was like your uncle or something almost, right? Well, yeah, Dave: so he, and he and my dad are really good friends. They worked together. My dad was one of his grad students, you know, um, he and my dad had a book together that now I'm a co-author on. And so it's like, yes. So I, I've known Bob as long as I could remember and, uh, yeah, like I mentioned today, sometimes it can be a little intimidating because when I'll talk to him, I'll sort of think, am I. Am I talking to him in a way that shows I fully understand the principles of influence? So , Athena: you feel like you're always like on display and he's like, is Dave doing this right? Dave: Yeah, . Which I don't think he's never, he's never done anything to indicate that, but it's just always a thing. I've always had. Athena: So it might be all in [00:03:00] your head. It might be, Dave: who knows. So , but today's talk was really fun because we were talking about influence and how it amplifi us and persuasion his, his newest book, which yeah. Bob: Um, Athena: is absolutely. Uh, Dave, there's something I need to tell you though, now that I know about all these principles that, um, you know, Bob laid out in, in these books. I'm going to constantly be judging you on the basis of whether you're following them or not. So, Dave: oh, well that's, that'll at least match, at least now. We'll both have the same thoughts going through our heads whenever we talk . So Athena: somebody told me yesterday, um, and, uh, we'll have to fact check this, but that there was a, a steady where they, they told people that some people had a psychological condition where they felt like they were being judged by waterfowl, that that just existed. And then they asked people to what extent they felt that. And just the, like, telling people that that exists as a thing made them, um, more likely to say that they actually experienced that. Dave: I mean, yeah. I've never experienced it up until now. Now did they make [00:04:00] this up? ? Yeah, Athena: they just made it up. . Dave: Great. . So now, so much for going to the lake. Um, Athena: so . Yeah. The Doug Pond doesn't seem so relaxing anymore. . Dave: Well, I think , I think anyone out there who's, uh, looking to, um, to influence, to avoid being deceptively influenced or to ethically influence people will find a lot of useful things. Um, any people or ducks that might be listening. . Um, so, Athena: right, the ducks are, they're too busy judging you Dave: Sorry. Well, but maybe, maybe there will be some tips in today's episode on how I could point to the true the most, um. , the things about myself that ducks would find most appealing, right? Athena: Yes. In fact, that's the whole point of this episode. No, it's not actually, but it's one of the things that comes out of this episode is [00:05:00] how to, you know, be true to what you have to offer, whether it's you personally, or a product that you're trying to sell, so that you can use these principles. Influence and persuasion in an ethical way. So let's hear from this week's fresh brain about cini. Bob: I know it's crazy, but it seems so logical. Try to find it, but it's something psychological with you. Makes me act the way I do. I'm not trying to, thing else Athena: is Bob: taking over me. Athena: Hey, you guys wanna get started? Should we get started with this thing that we're doing today? Yeah, [00:06:00] yeah, yeah. Should we do this? Okay. So, , uh, well first of all, I am super excited about this show. Um, Bob, we always start by asking guests to introduce themselves in their own words. Um, now for many people, you will require no introduction. Um, but, uh, still wanna give you the opportunity to say, uh, who you are and, uh, you know, what your, um, interest is in this topic of influence and mation. Bob: Well, uh, I'm Bob Cini. I am a behavioral scientist whose, uh, professional life has been focused on the study of persuasion and social influence and the, the link. Z uh, the, the link to today and ramification is really the automaticity that I've, uh, encountered in studying how influence often occurs, [00:07:00] how the persuasion dynamic, um, uh, occurs as well. And, uh, that makes me eager to, um, exchange, uh, thoughts with you today. Athena: Absolutely. Sweet. So, are you saying that a lot of the things that influence us, we don't realize that they're influenced? Bob: Not only are, don't we realize it? Um, we, um, we act on the basis of those things that are merely associative, uh, and that, uh, move our, uh, uh, uh, our, uh, actions in a particular direction. We don't even recognize that. . Dave: So what's an example Bob: of, so there's a classic example from the work of Judith, uh, Langer, uh, Harvard psychologist who did an experiment where, uh, she asked people if she could cut ahead of them in line waiting to make [00:08:00] copies at a Xerox machine in the Harvard Library. Right? And if she just said, excuse me, can I cut ahead of you? Uh, 60% said yes. If she gave them a reason. Excuse me, can I cut ahead of you? I'm in a hurry now. 94% said yes. Right? They had a reason, but there was a third group where she said, excuse me, can I cut ahead of you because I have to make copies. There was no, there was no reason there, there was just the word because. and the word because is associated with reasons even when they are full reasons. And now 93% allowed her to cut ahead of them in line. Right? An association that wasn't connected to the merits or the logic or [00:09:00] the rationality of her request became more, uh, successful. That the reason became more ef uh, effective when it was preceded by the word because, Athena: so, so this is why bullshitting works. You're like, yeah, it's, I need a raise because I could really use some more money. Well, Bob: you know, I think our children have learned this that about us, because very often, um, parents will say, oh, parents will say, do this. And they'll say, why? And we'll say, because, just because . So we've indoctrinated them early on. . Athena: That's great. Um, so Bob, uh, in addition to being a behavioral scientist, you're also quite a prolific author, right? You've written many books on topics that link into these issues of influence and, you know, how are being socially [00:10:00] embedded affects our behavior. Can you give a quick rundown of, uh, the books that you've written and, um, how they, how they fit in with these themes? Bob: Well, um, the first book I wrote was called, is called Influence. I've written some, uh, uh, subsequent editions of it. , the Psychology of Persuasion was, was the subtitle. And in it I identified seven universal principles of influence that if included in a message, uh, increase the likelihood of assent to it. And I think the link to today's, uh, topic is that very often they're, uh, they work in an automatic way. It's just something that happens without having us having to think about it, right? So for example, there, there, there's a principle of social proof that if a lot of other people [00:11:00] are doing something, it allows us to make a good choice in that direct. without having to consider the pros and cons of the situation. They've done it for us . They've beta tested the, the, the, uh, situation. Uh, and that happens automatically. People do it without thinking about it. And I can understand, uh, that, why that would be, uh, because it usually is adaptive to go in the direction that a lot of others have found fruitful and are moving. Uh, and it turns out it doesn't take a lot of cognitive, uh, capacity to do it. Fish school together, right? Birds flock, uh, cattle herd, social insects swarm together in unified patterns and predictable patterns. So, The presence of evidence that a lot of other [00:12:00] people are doing this can spur people to behave in that direction, to take that direction themselves. Uh, because it's normally the right it, it normally counsels correctly. And, uh, it's been something that's been, um, found to be enormously affected. There was a study, I love this study, uh, in, um, Louisville. They, the, uh, they were having trouble, the city of Louisville, getting people to pay their, uh, traffic fines on time. And all they did was to include in the letter that they sent, uh, to, uh, these folks that the majority, the great majority of Louisville citizens do pay their pack. And they doubled receipts. They doubled receipts by simply adding that one, uh, principle of social influence. Athena: Everybody's doing it. You know, , everybody's [00:13:00] paying their traffic tickets. It's the cool thing right now. . Bob: That's right. . That's right. Athena: That's great. And, uh, you have another book. You actually, you have it. I mean, the audience can't, but you have it right there, right now. I written, Bob: there's some other books that I've co-authored, but the, the other book that I'm a, I'm a sole author on is called Persuasion. Um, and, um, it focuses not on what you put into your message. Like, uh, look, all these other people are doing it like we just said, but what you say or do immediately before you send your message, which puts people in a state of mind that is aligned with the message they are about to receive. So you've change, you change their likelihood of ascent before you send the message. The, you know, people say, how, what is this magic? How , how can you get people to mo [00:14:00] uh, to believe a message before they've seen it? Well, you associate something ahead of time. You put this thing in their mind ahead of time before they experience your message and the options associated with. The best example I know is a study done in wine shops where, uh, people who entered the wine shop, uh, which was playing French music on the sound system, bought more French vintages. If they were, if they heard German music, they bought more German wine. Whatever was associated with the concept of France or Germany became more prominent in consciousness and guided behavior. . Athena: So the context is super important. Whatever you're trying to sell, if it's, you know, uh, an idea or wine or, uh, [00:15:00] you know, political ideology, uh, presumably the, the way that you set up the environment where people are getting that information, Bob: yes, it's huge. A pre-con, it's, it's what they experience immediately before their choice that is most likely to guide them in, uh, the direction of, uh, of that, uh, that image or that idea. Yeah. Dave: So how much of this sort of thing is happening to us all the time with advertisements and the music that's being chosen in wine shops? Yeah, Bob: it's happening a a lot, especially with advertising, for example, where, uh, you know what, like pavlos dogs and the experiment that showed that you, you don't need to have. Naturally existing associations to what you want people to follow, you can construct the association. So in Pavlov's case, he [00:16:00] rang a bell before the introduction of food powder into the animal's mouth. And he did that often enough that soon there was a constructed connection between the sound of a bell and food. There is no natural connection between the sound of a bell and food for rats. But after enough connections, the rats salivated to the sound of the bell, even if there was no food forthcoming. Right. Well, the advertising industry has figured out how to do this. Um, I've got some examples that I put in my book. Let me see if I can, uh, identify some of them. Yeah. So for example, imposing a brand of Belgian beer five times on pictures of pleasant activities such as beautiful nature scenes. Um, [00:17:00] increased, uh, observers to feel more favorable to the brand right away and still more favorable three weeks after. Similarly, exposing thirsty people eight times to pictures of happy faces just before they were having them taste a new soft drink caused them to consume more of the beverage. And here's the key. Be willing to pay three times more for it in the store. So it doesn't just affect our attitudes, it affects our behaviors. These pre persuasive. Uh, ideas or images and so on that we present ahead of time. It's Athena: so, it's scary. Ads. Ads are basically persuasion. They're trying to get you to associate something positive. Bob: Yes. Something Ever wonder what all [00:18:00] those good looking people were doing? . In the, in the car, in the automobile ads, there was a study that showed that, uh, if you pair automobile ads with, um, a very attractive model, young woman, men who saw it, were significantly more likely to want the car. Right. Uh, and claimed that in no way were they influenced by the presence of this model, right? The, the, the positivity, the beauty, and so on, transferred to the car. . Athena: So how did you get interested in this topic, this issue of, you know, how, how people are getting sort of set up or are getting prepared, um, if you will, you know, getting groomed in a way for, you know, taking in this information that is actually going to end up manipulating them? Bob: There was a knock on my door one Saturday [00:19:00] and there was a man asking me to contribute to a good cause. It was after school programs for, uh, the students in my, um, district. Um, and, um, I gave him twice as much money as I normally do for people who come to my door with a good cause, right. Even though he didn't show me any evidence. That he was associated with the, with the school district. He didn't show me any credentials. I hadn't heard anything, any buzz that after school programs were going to be used and so on. Uh, he did also didn't use any of my principals of influence by saying, all your neighbors are doing this. You know, this is a very popular pro. He didn't do that. And I remember closing the door and thinking to myself, what just happened here? Cini, this guy didn't use any of your principles. He didn't show any [00:20:00] credentials and you gave him twice as much money. And then I realized what he had done before he said a word. So what was it? He brought his seven year old daughter with him. Hmm. And he focused me on children and the needs of children and the challenges of children at school. And then when he launched into his message about the needs and challenges that I had been readied for, it persuasively by a focus on children. And that's what got me to think, whoa, this is probably something that's more widespread than at my front door on a Saturday. This is probably something that's going on in a, uh, a regular and, uh, intentional, uh, way, um, in our environment. So I thought I would, you know, I, I'll tell you, [00:21:00] that book was written 30 years after influence and in that 30 years I had gotten a lot of requests to. Other books, um, uh, maybe, um, expansions of influence. H how does influence work in personal relationships? How does it work in psychotherapy? How does it work in business, uh, management decisions and so on. And I always said no to those. These just seem derivative, uh, to me. Um, and I didn't, okay, I'm gonna use a metaphor here. I didn't want to plant a set of bushes around the tree. That influence had become, by this time it had sold millions of copies. I wanted to wait till I had the seeds for another tree. And Persua persuasion was that for. . Athena: Cool. So what are the other like, [00:22:00] ways that persuasion happens? So, you know, it can happen in this sort of like selling context, you know, with ads, with donations. Does it happen in interpersonal relationships? Um, in romantic relationships? Is this something that people use in, you know, more personal context? Bob: Y uh, yes, and, and um, I think it, it applies in, um, something that we've seen happen a, a lot and that is if, if I want my partner to be more helpful, let's say, right? I can show her a picture of the two of us standing shoulder to shoulder because togetherness is associated with helpfulness and there's a study. Like this, it, but this, the study showed that you, if you [00:23:00] bring subjects into a laboratory, this was done in Belgium, and you show them, um, a set of photographs of household objects, chairs, tables, forks, knives, blenders, and in the background you have a soul character standing there, a soul individual behind each of these. All right? The oth, another third got that of the subjects, got those same pictures, except there were two individuals standing behind the um, uh, the items, but they were apart from one another, separated. And then the final third saw those same items. This time, those two individuals were standing shoulder to shoulder in a partnership. togetherness pose. Now, at this point [00:24:00] in the experiment for all the subjects, for all the groups, it's all three of the group. The experimenter got up from the table and pretended to drop a series of items, a set of items onto the floor, pencils and P papers and so on. And the question is, Athena: those experimenters in social psychology experiments, they can be so clumsy sometimes, right? Dropping stuff Bob: all over the goodness place. Now the question is, who gets off of their seat spontaneously on their hands and needs and helps? The researcher? Here's the answer. Those who saw a person standing behind the household items were 20. 20% of them helped. Those who saw two people standing behind but separated. 20% helped those who saw those two people standing shoulder to shoulder, 60% help. Oh, wow. Three times as much. Oh, wow. That's a shock. That's huge, right? The [00:25:00] size that, yeah, that wasn't the biggest shock to me in this experiment. The biggest shock caused me to whistle under my breath when I saw it. The subjects in this experiment were 18 months old. Infants . What? That's how basic this is. It's in us very early on that we res because togetherness and helpfulness are linked, even the minds of 18 month olds. Right. It's all the, we see it all the time. And they would respond to this at such a disproportionate, um, way, uh, for though after seeing, so if I were. If I wanted to ask a re relationship partner to be helpful to me, I would first show a picture of us standing close [00:26:00] together, standing arm in arm, shoulder to shoulder. That lends itself to helplessness helpfulness because it's related to partnership and togetherness. Athena: I feel like this could be a whole strategy for like a brand new approach to, you know, social media and picture taking. It's like, okay, what's the real photos I have to have so that I can show them to people in advance of asking them for, for various things. Bob: Yeah, so, and so, you know, David, I know that you had a question of me, well, how do we defend ourselves against this? Right? Dave: Yeah, I, well, I was gonna ask that. And then also the flip side of how do we use this ethically. So I think the two sides I'd be interested in, Bob: um, well, okay, I, I'm gonna do that, uh, through a, a circuitous route. I'll tell you about another study. I'm [00:27:00] all about research. I'm always talking about research. There was a study of an online furniture store that specialized in sofas. And during the period of the experiment, um, everyone who went to their website was, uh, shunted to a landing page that had fluffy clouds in the background, right, of their, um, Of their insignia and their, uh, initial, uh, welcoming and so on. The other half were shunted to a page that had pennies, small coins in the background. Okay. Uh, then they were asked a series of questions, including what they would like to purchase. Those who saw fluffy clouds were more likely to buy comfortable furniture. [00:28:00] Those who saw pennies were more likely to buy inexpensive furniture. Right? Okay, so now here's the que Well, so here's the question. Well, how, first of all, how do we defend ourselves against this? Knowing what we know now about priest waging, we have to ask ourselves. What were those fluffy clouds doing on the landing page? What was that? What's the first thing they showed me? What is it about that that I need to keep in mind and register when they might send some, uh, uh, uh, other information? Right? Um, and what were those pennies doing there, right? That same sort of thing. But here's how I would say you have to, you have to, uh, arrange [00:29:00] things in the most ethical possible way for to, uh, uh, to benefit. All concerned under case of persuasion. What is your strongest, the strongest feature of your case? What is the most compelling argument or differentiator of what you have to offer that will most. council people correctly to go in your direction. If it's cost, if your differentiator, if the thing that that makes your products esp especially, um, beneficial, is there cost? Well, you put pennies, , then you, you, you align them to the thing that they should be paying attention to. If it is comfort, [00:30:00] then you put, that's the thing that they should be paying attention to because your strength is comfort. Your strength is that kind of softness in. Yeah. So that's what I would, that's what I would say. So as Dave: a consumer, should I then also do the same thing? If I'm looking, if I'm like, I wanna get a mattress, but I'm on a budget, should I tape pennies to my monitor? So that that is always in my mind? Yeah, yeah. Yes, you should. Oh, Bob: okay. Yes, you should. I'll tell you how I wrote that book, priest Sua. I dedicated it to my grandchildren. Uh, I have the, uh, dedication here. Um, let's see what I said. I said to Haley Dawson, and, . I never liked being bossed around by my superiors until [00:31:00] I had grandchildren, , who exposed me to the joys for all concerned, right? And then I put a photograph of my grandchildren next to the screen so that I saw their face when I was writing because I was, I, I needed to be, uh, reminded of how important this book was going to be. It had to be a good book if it was for them, cuz I had this image of my mind. They have kids, they go into a library and they see this book on the shelf. They take it out and they show their kids this dedication and they get to say, your grandfather wrote this for me. . Well, it better be a good book, . I love that. It better be a good book. [00:32:00] So I kept that in mind so that I was always referring to, I, I would, I was recognizing the mindset I wanted to be in. I was in fact spurring it. I want the mindset I wanted to be in. As I wrote the book, it kept me in my chair. It kept me reviewing manuscripts that were obscure. It. It kept me there because I needed it to be, I needed to be reminded of the purpose of the book. Dave: So I have another question going off of this. So let's, going back to the sort of mattress store, right? Would it be if they decide we wanna make the softest mattresses, should they then also have cloudy wallpaper in all the offices and all the factories to sort of. You know what I mean? To prime people. Yes. Bob: And here's, well, it's kind and here's the data that's supported, a study [00:33:00] done of, um, people at a university call center who were calling, uh, alumni to get them to, to, um, contribute to the, uh, it was, uh, McGill University in in Montreal to, to the university's general fund. Half of them got a list of tips to employ when they encountered an alumnus who was on the phone listening to them and so on. And then they would go through the tips of why they should, uh, why they should, uh, uh, contribute. The other half got the same tips, and in the background was a picture of a runner winning a race. In other words, achievement was being primed. Those people. Um, collected 60% more [00:34:00] funds than those who had the plain paper because they were cons. Every time they picked up that paper, they were being reminded of achievement. Athena: So this is, I mean, this is an argument for bringing back those motivational posters that were all over offices back, you know, in like the nineties and the early That's right. Two thousands. That's, you're exactly right. So, so there's something to that. Like if you, you know, have a picture of a, a cat, you know, hanging on and yeah, you're actually more likely to stick with, I always Bob: laughed at it until I saw these data, and by the way, the researchers did something really smart. They said, you know, success isn't always associated with drive and energy and bursting through the tape at the end of a run. Sometimes success is associated with contemplation and consi and considered analysis of a situation, right? So they [00:35:00] ran another study this time with, uh, this time with college students who were, who were trying to solve difficult business problems. These were, uh, undergraduates, majors in business, and, uh, half of them were shown at the top of their screen while they were solving these problems, a picture of Rodin's thinker and they solved 40% more problems than those who didn't get rodents, thinker. Those who got, in fact, those who got the one runner winning the race, that that didn't make them solve the. the problem is better. So the key was to match the image to what was the desired goal of the message, right? [00:36:00] Was it to make people deliberative and analytic and, uh, contemplative or was it to make them energized and and so on? So, yeah, so I believe you're right. So David, and, Athena: and so we can really shape a lot of our performance potentially then by being really deliberate about the, the context that we're putting ourselves in or we're creating for ourselves, right? Even on a micro scale, by putting a certain, you know, picture next to our computer. Or can, can Dave: I ask you guys a question? Unfortunately, the people at home will not be able to see this, but what do you think This giant poster that I've had next to me, For six months is doing to me. Athena: Oh, what is this? Giant poster? Giant poster. . Oh, this is an amazing picture. Bob: A picture of me when I was a young man. [00:37:00] Um, and, uh, my, my wife Bob had, uh, made a party for me, for , uh, and, and used that picture. So I guess what it would cause you to do is want to write a book on social influence. . Dave: Yeah. You know, it may be , so, um, and, and learn the influence techniques. So yes. Uh, . So, uh, Bob: but, so Athena: wait, Bob, are you like the original influencer? Bob: Hardly, but I'm the original, um, influencer who tried to make the. Information about the influence process available to a non-academic audience. The first, so are you, I wrote Influence then was published in 1984. There were no such books then. Athena: So you're responsible for the whole influencer movement as we know it. Bob: I [00:38:00] hardly think that is the case. True . But, um, I'll have to say I was trepidatious about it because in those days, presenting your results to a popular audience led you to be seen as a popularizer. And there's a guy named James Boyle, a British, um, legal scholar who said, you have never heard true condescension until you've heard an academic pronounce the word popularize. Wow. And I was, I was legitimately concerned that fulfilling what I think is a, a a, a contract, uh, responsibility that we have to, uh, tell people who paid for our research through their taxes and donations to our university, tell them what we found with their money. I think we have a, an [00:39:00] obligation to do that. That in doing that, I would lay myself open to the, um, criticism of popularizer. Dave: Why, why do you think that was held in low regard? Bob: Because it meant cleaning the way the nuances and the details of your work and describing the, the methods and, uh, AEs and so on that academics need to have. Confidence in something, and they said without that, you're not giving them the true scoop. You're giving them some form of, uh, uh, of, of, uh, m modified or down version of, uh, the ideas. Well, so what I tried to do to combat that was two things. One, I had hundreds of references in, in, in, in the bi [00:40:00] bibliography. So anybody who wanted to challenge me about whether what I was saying in the book was, uh, supported, I had, I, I was ready, I was ready to contend, uh, with them on that point. The other thing I did, and I, this was something I didn't intend, uh, it just happened that I wrote the book about the power of behavioral science. Not my researcher, the, just the research in my particular domain. The power of understanding the world that we live in, in terms of the outcomes from properly conducted behavioral science. Well, in that case, I was not just promoting myself, I was promoting all my colleagues. And there's a, a quote that I, I like that says, people don't sink the boats they're riding in. [00:41:00] Hmm. I had put those people in the boat with me. They weren't going to torpedo it. Dave: They, they were persuaded. So yeah, Athena: I like that. Maybe, and you know, people don't, Don't sync the books. They're written into . Bob: Yeah, that's right. Athena: Yeah. So I have a big, a big picture question. You know, as, as we're sort of talking about this, it's clear that this is a, uh, pretty big lever that, you know, can be messed with, right? Like, if you're trying to manipulate somebody else, you want them to, um, help you, you want them to change their behavior, um, that you can use this pre-suasion technique, you know, setting up an environment ahead of time so that they're more likely to say yes as a way to get them to do what you want. So the question is, why, why do we have that vulnerability if it's such a, [00:42:00] um, you know, it's such a huge way that we can be zombified by others and, you know, potentially maybe not in our interest. So, so why, why does it exist in the first place in evolutionary terms, um, if it's such a vulnerability. Bob: So, . I would say that the thing that is highest in con, uh, in, in consciousness immediately before a decision is something that is seen to be important in our minds before we make that decision. Right. And that's evolutionarily adaptive to follow the guide, the guidance of important concepts. Well, there's a loophole in the system, and that is a communicator can insert something at the top of consciousness in our minds that then sends [00:43:00] us in what may not be an A wholly adaptive. Uh, direction. So, so for me, I, I'm gonna go back now to the, the whole idea of influence, uh, the, the, the principles of influence and say that, um, the way to do this ethically is to point to something that's truly there, point to true social proof, true authority, true scarcity, whatever the principle is that exists. And not to manufacture it, not to fabricate it, not to counterfeit it in that situation. If all you do is point to it, you, your, your true differentiator is cost. Your true differentiator is comfort, whatever it might be, right? You point to that, well, that's the best you can do. It seems to me you've informed people of [00:44:00] something that is likely is. Of, of all your arguments to be the one that they should, um, most take into account. Athena: So, so if it, it's a matter of kind of, you know, being more, um, receptive to your context and your environment versus not, you know, from, in evolutionary terms of we're thinking about the sort of receiver of the information here right now. Um, you could potentially be less receptive, right? But then you would miss out on all the ways that it is important, right? To pay attention to context so that you can make decisions that make sense, that you're paying attention to the things that are most important that you're prioritizing. Maybe you know, the opportunities that are temporary over the ones that are there all the time, right? So there's a sort of trade off potentially. There is that, am I hearing that Bob: right? Uh, you've just characterized it better than I. Did . Dave: So I, I have a [00:45:00] question. How do you go about figuring out what your true value Bob: is? You know, that's really a good question because a lot of people don't, they just give you a set of arguments. Here are all the features, here are all the reasons, here are all the advantages of moving in my direction. And they don't think to elevate one over the others. Right? And that can change depending on the population that you're, you're speaking to, your audience, but to elevate the one that is most linked to the, the core feature of your, of your appeal, uh, or your offer. Uh, that's something that I think ought to be done regularly in any communication, uh, program. . So should Dave: we, should we be asking whoever we're gonna be doing business with, what is the most important thing to them or what their, what's their favorite thing that we've offered or things like that? Bob: There is research to show [00:46:00] that if we ask them what, so of all the things that I, which, which is the thing that's most important to you? Or we say, why did you choose us After the fact, they become committed to it. They make a public commitment to that thing and they instantiate it as, uh, something to prioritize into the future. Yeah. Dave: Oh, interesting. So even if it was just a, a mild front runner before, and then we, and then they say, you know what really mattered is the soft Yeah. The Bob: soft Dave: right thing. Then next time we say, look, this is really soft, and they'll know. they'll be even more likely Bob: to, that's right. Just think about it. The answer softness has now been instantiated in their memory and in their perception of their choice. And it's easy to go back to that then, rather than to generate something that they haven't [00:47:00] described. All right. Athena: I also, I also like the sort of invitation to have like clarity about what it is that you have to offer and therefore what kind of context you should set up in order to be best able to Right. Offer that, communicate that. Um, seems like that is a force that could definitely be used for good, right? I mean, help you not be so diffuse in how you're trying to approach things or, um, even use it for helping. I Bob: think you're exactly right and I would like people to do more of that. I recommend that that's what they do, uh, that they should do. When I speak to various groups, . Athena: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Do, do you see this dynamic as kind of a, a problem for personal autonomy? Like, does it ever bother you that, like, you know, like that you can be influenced in that way or that people can be influenced in this way? Is it, do you think it's problematic or not so much? Bob: You know, [00:48:00] it, I think, again, it depends on whether the idea that was submitted to me to try to influence me, um, was done by pointing to its natural presence in the situation versus having it, um, fabricated there. And I, I'll give you the e example that I, uh, like the most. A few years ago I was, uh, in a appliance store. I was there for a different reason, but I saw big screen TV that I knew was very highly rated by consumer reports. and it was on sale. And, uh, so I went up to it and I was looking at it and the salesperson came by and he said, oh, I see you're interested in this set at this price, and I can see why it's a great deal. And then he said, but I should tell you, it's our last one. No, I knew that was a scarcity. [00:49:00] He was using, he was pulling the scarcity trigger. Right. And then he said, so like, you read my book , Athena: right? Didn't you? Well, Bob: he, he upped the ante and then he said, and I just got a call from a wound from Scottsdale. Who said she's probably coming in to buy it today, , 20 minutes later, I'm wheeling out of the shop with this ki this set in my cart, and I'm supposed to be the doctor of influence, Now here's the key, here's the key to, uh, um, differentiator here. It is. Was he honest? If he was telling me about true scarcity, I needed to know that I wanted that influence principle to be pointed to in the situation where it was an inherent feature, right? [00:50:00] Because if I, if he didn't tell me that, and I went home to think about do I really want this set or should I go? And then I thought, yeah, I'm gonna go back the next day and I'll go back and I went and there's an empty spot on the shelf. and I said, and I walked, I, I caught the salesman going by. I said, what happened? He said, oh, that was our last one. I would've said, are you crazy man? It was the last one. And you didn't tell me about the true scarcity there. What's wrong with you? Right. Okay. Well, to find out. I went back the next day, was, did he just go to the storeroom and put another one there after using the scarcity tactic on me, or was it really the last one? There was an empty spot on the show. Oh. So here's what I did. Athena: I went back and there was a very disgruntled woman from Bob: Scottsdale Yeah. [00:51:00] Woman from Scottsdale was the one who said, oh, it's gone . So I went back to my office and I wrote a very positive review. Of this store and this salesperson. Now, if there had been another one on the shelf, he was just using this, uh, as a, as a tactic, I would've gone back to my office and written a very negative review about this shop and this person, because I think we have to, we have to reinforce the people who use these principles honestly, and inform us into ascent, and we have to penalize the people who use them deceptively. We have, I feel like assisting them and we've got the internet to do. Athena: An amazing reality TV show, , like, you know, like hidden [00:52:00] cameras and like, you know, Bob, you go into situations where people might be trying to use like your own techniques against you. And then, you know, if they were like being honest, then there's some reward. And if not, then they get, you know, ashamed on public, on television. Bob: You know, I've seen a show called The Undercover Boss where the boss of a company goes and works the line at Arby's or wherever it is, and then learns about. I would be the undercover author. . Dave: All right. . That would be great. . So I, oh, do you have another, go ahead. Okay. So I just have a question that I've always wondered and how to integrate the techniques of influence in everyday life. And I, and I, I mentioned this in the email because as, as you know, people listening may not know, but. , I've known Bob and Bobette my whole life, right? And anytime they'll thank me for anything, I freak out because I'm like, how am I supposed to respond to this? Because am I supposed, I, I [00:53:00] know I'm not supposed to say no problem, because then I'm gonna look like a buner of influence. But then if I say, you do the same for me, even though that's true, it feels very sort of forced. You know what I mean? And so how do people integrate this into day-to-day conversation? What would you suggest? Bob: Um, I, what I say is, uh, a thank you for that kind comment for Wait. If somebody, when I say you, right, when, when somebody praises or thanks, I say, of course. I was happy to do it. Thanks for. Dave: Saying Thank you, . Now do you say that, is that, is that a rehearsed thing or is it Bob: just No, it's true. It's the truest thing I can say. Dave: Okay. So just, just to sort of, so if I'm going through day-to-day and somebody just says thank you and it's somebody that I know, what would you [00:54:00] recommend to respond? Bob: Well, I was happy to do it for a friend. Okay. Like Dave: you. Okay. So, Athena: um, this is like how to be friends 1 0 1 Dave: day. How to, how to be a human Oh. So, oh Athena: yeah. I mean, I think that idea that, you know, you genuinely express the appreciation and the connection that's there when somebody does something for you that can help to reinforce that. relationship, that positive relationship. All Bob: right. I think that's right. Dave: Yeah. Well, I think it's a question I always have about psychology in general is how to have, how to have sort of human interactions that feel unscripted but genuine, you know? Um, but also no major social blunders. I think that's . Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so [00:55:00] Bob: maybe you should write that book, Dave: how Bob: to Athena: say. You're welcome. Well, I've got, I've got a question. You know, when we get to the end of our shows, we, uh, we like to go into the zombie apocalypse just a little bit. So, um, basically question is, what is the zombie apocalypse? Scenario for influence. By which, by which I mean if you take the, the way that we can be influenced by others, by the context we we're presented with before we get into a situation, if we take that and we turn the dial up on that, so we're way more vulnerable to being influenced by others and the, you know, [00:56:00] context that we're in. What kind of world is that? Is it, uh, apocalyptic world where people are getting peop, you know, others to do things that they shouldn't be doing? Does social order fall apart, or, or is it not so apocalyptic? What's, what's your thought Bob: on that? Uh, I have a pessimistic view, uh, in my answer, which is it is a world that's rapidly approaching. It's a world where there is so much information. So many choices, so many challenges, so little time that we respond automatically to everything without stepping back from the situation and saying, why was, why, why were those fluffy clouds in? Or, or why did that sales, that car salesman give me a, a cup, ask me if I wanted a cup of coffee or [00:57:00] a soft drink or something. I mean, where you start to defend yourself against these things by stepping back from them rather than simply, um, uh, launching into an automatic response. And I think the amount of uncertainty and the amount. Information that, uh, technology gives us, makes it ver less and less likely that we have the wherewithal, we have the cognitive resources, and we have the time to do that in a regular way. Athena: So, so you're saying that we we're in it or we're, we're entering into this apocalypse because we don't have enough time to really process everything that's coming in. So we're becoming more automatic, automatic in how we're responding. We're becoming more manipulable. Yeah. We don't even know why we do a lot of the things that we do anymore. We need our Bob: shortcuts. Right? And there are profiteers waiting along the path, [00:58:00] of our shortcuts, waiting to exploit us. So how can we and worry about, so what I suggest is unplug for a certain period of time every day from your technology. get you. Wait, wait. You mean like do something, think do something other than respond, uh, to the massive amount of information that's a available, Athena: you mean put our smartphones down for a minute? Yes. Bob: I do mean Dave: that . Now. Now what about this big TV that I just bought? Because I was told it's the last one in the store. So should I turn that one? I Bob: stills been a great, it's been a great buy. Athena: So, uh, I mean the, the advice, I get it, but it's also, it's so hard because we have so many channels that come in through these Yeah. Devices, right? Like, yeah. I mean, so much of my work stuff is on there. My email, slack, of course there's, you know, social [00:59:00] media on there, there's Twitter, which I use a lot for, you know, work and also for fun. And you know, I have to be on there often, right? And so, I mean, so many of our interactions are happening through this one device, which then. that device itself can be hijacked. Right. So then my one channel for so much information is, um, parasitized by all this stuff. Bob: Right. , I, I, I agree with you. You have to be on that device often, but you don't have to be on it constantly. Give yourself a holiday Athena: from it. That's, that's good. That's good advice. So you, I want Bob: set a graduate student who was remarkably productive and I asked her, how did you know compared to your contemporaries, here you get a so much more done. She said, I don't answer, I don't open my email until three 30. Wow. Now there are perils there, there are things she's going to miss, [01:00:00] but boy did she get work done. Athena: Yeah. That's, Bob: I mean, I think that's unrealistic for me. I couldn't do that. Yeah. Yeah, but I could put an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, uh, that I designate for putting the phone away and the, and turning off the computer. Athena: I know I'm most productive if I can just sit down and start writing, working in the morning without looking at email, without looking at Slack, without, you know, having my brain get, maybe it's all this, these pieces of, you know, context that could be pushing me in one direction or another that, you know, start to infect your brain as soon as you wake up in the morning. Bob: The clarity of your purpose and your focus is diffused. Athena: Yeah. I've never thought of it in terms of this, you know, like what are all these things that are getting into my brain that might be in advance changing [01:01:00] the context to move me in one direction or another? Um, but yeah, that can definitely interfere with that focus and that clear intention. Yeah. Right. Yeah. . So we've talked a little bit about how, you know, these kinds of influences can be used for, for good. Do you have any sort of final thoughts for, you know, for those of us who are receivers of the information or senders of this kind of information, um, any, any parting words or advice for how this, you know, this type of mation can be something that's, uh, a positive thing? Think Bob: as a, as a, as a communicator. I think what we need to do is think about the ethics of the process as well as the effectiveness of the process we're employing. And that lends itself to partnerships and relationships that [01:02:00] last and that people, uh, value. When we're, we're totally honest with them. We're upfront and we're, you know, we, we tell them what's going on. Uh, what we're, um, what we're advising for what reasons? Uh, the, the, the low road , uh, you, you can have some, you can have some short term, uh, successes there, but there's something I, I used to study, uh, con artists. And one thing that always led them to destruction was the long con. You can't maintain the long con where you're eventually, your deceptiveness. Your cravenness, your self-interest, your self dealing, uh, comes to the surface and it undercuts your, um, existing, the rapport that people feel with you. [01:03:00] Hmm. . Athena: So we actually have some pretty good mechanisms for protecting ourselves in these, these longer term situations. But we can be pretty vulnerable in Yeah, in shorter term context where we have to make a decision quickly without a lot of information. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Dave, anything else you wanna ask or, uh, put in the mix? Dave: No, I think this was fantastic, . Bob: I really enjoyed the, uh, the time with you folks because the questions you asked were right on the nose. Athena: Well, it was a real pleasure getting to, to talk with you and have you share your brains with us. Um, it's definitely a, definitely a treat. I don't know, I don't know if you know this Bob, but I really love brains. . I'm really into brains , uh, and uh, yeah, so. Thank you so much for sharing your brains with us for this [01:04:00] episode of Zombified, and if the Bob: whole says fall in love, you better tell me right now. Says Burn motherfucker. You better.[01:05:00] Athena: Zombified is a production of Arizona State University and Zombified Media. Dave: Thank you very much to everyone who made Zombified possible, including the Arizona State University Department of Psychology, Athena: the Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative, and the President's office at asu, Dave: the Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics Athena: and all of the delicious brains that help us make this podcast, Dave: including Torah who does all our sound editing. Athena: Neil Smith, uh, who does our illustrations, Dave: Lemi, who wrote the song, psychological Athena: [01:06:00] and performed it. It's amazing. , if you wanna listen to the whole thing. He's on Spotify. Check it out. Dave: Cool. Yeah. Under Lemy. Would that, is that how they look for it? Yeah. Yep. L E M I I. Athena: Yep. Yeah. Uh, and then we have just an amazing z team. So many people who are a part of making this podcast happen, making Zombified media happen in general. We've got, you know, just amazing folks at all levels, including a team of undergrads that are, are just on it. So, um, thank you to our, our Z team, all of you all. Dave: Yeah. They make this possible. And then they also make all the channels, edge shows that you can see on Zombified media's YouTube channel possible, Athena: right? That's right. Yeah. So if you go to, uh, Slash channels Ed, you can find all of our videos and then you can actually see us live if you join us on Mondays. That's true. You can see [01:07:00] us and hear us live. Yeah. Uh, and, Dave: and you can even ask us questions. You can, you can heck us through the live chat if you've Athena: ever really enjoy the heckling actually. Yeah. So we invite the heckling, so definitely come and heckle us on, on Monday mornings at a 10 30. That's right. Dave: Everybody's doing it. So Athena: That's right. , you know what else everybody is doing, Dave? They're Dave: following us on, uh, Twitter and uh, Instagram and all those places. Athena: Yeah. And the, the tickety talk also. Um, we're, we're all over the place. Um, we're even on Facebook, so. Dave: Oh, and, and we're even on the web@zombify.org, right? Athena: Yeah. We have a old school website and it doesn't have clouds or pennies in the background either. , Dave: it it has zombies though, right? It has zombies. It Athena: does, yeah. It's actually, you know, I was thinking when, um, Bob was talking about like our whole, our whole world here, you know, like having the apocalypse always in the background, [01:08:00] how that is persuading us in, in what ways? So that's true. So yeah, I don't really Bob: have any thoughts. We do have. . Dave: Yeah. We do have, uh, t-shirts, so maybe we should put clouds. Maybe we should put little zombie clouds to remind people that the t-shirts are, are soft and comfortable so Athena: they're soft and comfortable. Yeah. So you can, you can buy merch, um, on our website, which is very, very soft. Um, functional t-shirts, happy people, lots of happy people in the apocalypse. So yeah, I mean, like being happy in the apocalypse, embracing the apocalypse. That's, I, I'm, I think that's probably a good context for most things that you would be trying to face in your life. Dave: That's right. So yeah, they'll help you survive and they'll Yeah, totally. So it's a happy, happy apocalypse. So It is, Athena: yes. So join us for, join us for the Happy Apocalypse on, on Monday mornings. Um, and uh, also this is the first episode of season four. It's been That's right. It's been a while. Dave: That's [01:09:00] right. And this is, this is getting launched during the, uh, conference and anyone who missed the conference can also probably find that on YouTube. Right? A lot of the content from the Athena: conference. Yeah. In fact, we will be live streaming, um, many of our shows, uh, right on, on YouTube. So if you're, you're listening to this episode as it's coming out and pop on our YouTube channel, and you'll, uh, have the chance to actually heckle us live if you, if, but you have to get on right away because it's, it's not gonna last. The meeting only goes until the 23rd. Um, and then you'll have to wait until the next Monday to, to get on a heckles. So, Dave: There you go. And if, yeah, if you come back the following week, there's not gonna be another meeting that we just put out. It'll just be an empty space. So , Athena: although, although you can always go on our YouTube channel and see everything that we have done, um, from, you know, Very, very early on in the zombie apocalypse until now. We've got [01:10:00] just video. I mean, how many hours of videos do we have? There's a lot of, there's a lot of hours of videos we've got. There are. That's Dave: channel, so there's lots of videos. So So of video. Yeah. So I guess the scarcity really comes in. If you wanna, if you wanna comment, then you gotta Athena: watch it live though. Yeah. Really the scarcity is the time period in which you can heckle me and Dave. Yes. That is limited. Yes. And everybody wants to do it. Bob: So many people Dave: Yes. . Exactly. That a long, we can only . So. All right, well, uh, Thena, this was really fun. So thank you so much. Athena: Thank you. And thank you all for listening to Zombified Your. For fresh brains. Bob: No, it's crazy, but it seems so logical, supernatural.[01:11:00]