Michelle Vuolo: We know technology's moving so fast, right? Like we keep saying it. Every conversation I talk about is not like what's changing, but like how fast it's changing. What's not changing that fast is regulation. 

Narrator: You are listening to Augmented ops where Manufacturing meets innovation. We highlight the transformative ideas and technologies shaping the front lines of operations, helping you stay ahead of the curve in the rapidly evolving world of industrial tech.

Michelle Vuolo: Welcome back to Augmented Ops podcast. I'm so excited to be back and I can't believe I got invited back after my last stint here. So my name is Michelle Olo. I'm the head of quality here for Tulip Interfaces, and I am joined with Gilad. Do you wanna introduce yourself? 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. Hi, Michelle. First of all I'm so excited to finally be on the podcast.

I've been watching forever, and it's like, when is my turn? Apparently I'm luckily I'm actually in here here in person with you, so this is super exciting. 

Michelle Vuolo: I'm excited to talk to you today because it's been a while since we've chatted. But we have a long history here and I think it would be really fun to talk about how we joined Tulip.

So I joined Tulip in 2020 in April which is right when COVID was getting started. I was working with ISPE doing a bunch of work there, and Gilad invited me to come. Tulip. And so I joined and said hello, and we were gonna work on our ISPE work. And next thing I know, I'm being invited back for an interview.

So it's been an interesting journey getting to know you and getting to know Tulip. How did you first come to Tulip? I don't, 

Gilad Langer: yeah. First of all, I, we just talked about that. It is, that's two 20. It's so many years ago. I actually have my own consulting company. I was doing consulting for a number of customers.

And part of what I do, if you've listened to all my, all my ramblings and blogs and such is, look at new technology, digital technology really is my passion, and I came across Tulip and one of these LinkedIn searches go, that's pretty interesting. And I saw Natan and said, I gave Natan is, I'm Israeli as well.

I said what is this? And Natan persuaded me. Gently too. This is a good idea. But, I, again, I say persuasion like, look what we're doing here at Tulip is something that I have been passionate about since the nineties. Really it's an evolution.

It's a realization of ideas that I worked with back in 19 96, 97. We. Talking about what the world would look like and in my perspective at the time was, that's gonna happen 15, 20 years. I think we're looking 30 years now, but the disruption in this space, the need for more agility, all that stuff.

For me, very close to heart, I do it with passion. I think you can see that as well. But yeah, that's how it came about. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah. 

Gilad Langer: So we had a customer that we had to validate it was LT S3 on-prem. And Natan says oh, we need to, we need to get these guys validated.

And we actually did. 

Michelle Vuolo: Did you have to look up the term. Validation. 

Gilad Langer: No. I always say, I come from the life science industry way before Tulip. Yeah. Yeah. So that was 2020 where we did that first validation. QMS was at its infancy, and so yeah, reminiscing. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah. It's funny I also got persuaded as well to join.

I was plucked from Life Sciences directly. I spent 25 years there, as before coming to Tulip. So it's been an interesting journey and I too joined. Because of my passion to move fast and to evolve the industry and all that kind of stuff. And so it has been an amazing journey and I think it's amazing to see Tulip realize these in actual real life science customers at scale.

So why don't we talk about some of the stuff that we've done with, in Tulip or out of Tulip with ISPE, maybe even, which is really where you and I started our journey as becoming, friends and partners in, in, in crime here. 

Gilad Langer: First of all I would be very interested to just, if the backstory of writing the validation 4.0 guide, I know that you have spent more than a year deep in in writing and frustration around that.

So that's pretty, I think, pretty interesting. I got pulled into the Pharma 4.0. To run one of the subcommittees specifically in the plug and produce group, and it's, how do we apply GXP or validation 4.0 specifically to technologies or IOT technologies and technologies like Tulip. That in itself has been a bit of a of a frustration.

ISP is, as we all know a great organization, but not. Not without politics, and we have to deal with that. It's, there's been a bit of a stencil with, because of the the guides that were coming out last year. I don't know if it's real or is it an excuse, but what does it take to write one of these things?

I know that I, I've been involved somewhat, but I know you've been leading it. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah, I think it's interesting. I'm gonna draw a parallel here, between what we've done within the ISP organization and the guidances that come out about new technologies and such, the parallel to regulation in general, I think it's.

An interesting thing to digest a little and pick apart because. We know technology's moving so fast, right? Like we keep saying it. Every conversation I talk about is not like what's changing, but like how fast it's changing. What's not changing that fast is regulation, right? And so just having an example working through these ISPE guides and such.

It's a very heavy, long process. It's about developing the content. It's about getting industry and peer reviews. It's about, if you're lucky enough, you'll get regulatory reviews as well. And then of course, the publication process. So it's really long and sometimes painful, right? Add on top of that, regulations who are at even almost a higher bar of review.

It's harder. So these things are coming out now. In dribs and drabs, if you will. But regulation is still lagging. 

Gilad Langer: Did you get review by regulators on the validation 

Michelle Vuolo: bill? We did. Like I said, if you're lucky enough, because I know regulators want to collaborate. With industry at the same time, it's really hard to get their documented input on things.

So yeah, it was difficult. But we did, we, in fact, the EMA provided, it was like 10 to 15 people gave us an hour and a half. Live review and feedback. And so it was a really amazing experience to work directly with them to get their guidance and feedback on these things and get their basically stamp of approval that the approach we were doing 

Gilad Langer: Yeah.

Michelle Vuolo: Was exactly, what they were hoping. And in fact, it also reiterated some of the regulations that are out there already. So I think they, they were very appreciative of guidance coming out on top of that. Yeah. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. And we'll talk about Annex 22 in just a second. Yeah. But my experience at least is that.

Regulation is well written, it transcends time. It actually should be applicable regardless of technology as it evolves. And I think some of it is. I also find that regulators really are pushing, they're pretty progressive in we want you to use the latest technology. We want you to be, of high quality, successful.

I find the interpretation of the regulation within Manufacturing or the companies where there is lack of progress or skepticism. 

Michelle Vuolo: You've hit on so many things in there, right? There's definitely. I think the desire to start to move faster, there's the desire for the collaboration for sure. And I think the recognition that technical controls are better than humans.

Yeah. The organization and operational controls that are implemented today and backwards. There is a cultural shift in problem is what I see. I think, not to bounce around too much, but we've been talking about the fact that industry in the past has been waiting for regulation to tell 'em what to do, what they can do, what they can't do.

And we can't use AI until, I don't know, FDA or EMA or whatever, put any three letter acronym of regulatory body in there and be until they tell us how to do it. So that's been the cultural problem going backwards. I'm seeing a shift. I'm seeing it like, 

Gilad Langer: yeah, 

Michelle Vuolo: adoption is starting to pick up.

Gilad Langer: I agree. I completely agree. And I see the same thing. We just had our trends webinar. One of the things we talked about was the velocity of the technology, the velocity of development and the need for companies to increase the speed by decision. But we have some stats here that the pharmaceutical industry, from a maturity.

A digital maturity perspective is still lagging behind other industries. That doesn't surprise me at all. In my daily work, I look at more industries than just the pharmaceutical, and people typically ask me like, which industry is leading, et cetera. And I don't think there's one way or the other, but it really goes back to that change requires a crisis.

And in Manufacturing crisis comes from productivity or competition. So industries that have lesser profit margins who have more competition. Typically we'll be more progressive because they need it, right? So it's born from need. We all know the pharmaceutical industry is not a low profit margin business, right?

And therefore there's some hesitancy and keep good earnings. But I think they are facing competition, especially in the western pharmaceutical companies as it goes. If you go to Asia and you can see some of the speed, there's this thing called the shinzen speed. And if you see the speed by which they're operating and how fast they can bring not only drug to market, but facilities up.

It's a wake up call, and I don't know that all of them see it, because some of them this, but that may be driving some of that change. And I know I, I may sound overly optimistic, we deal with it on a daily basis. The skepticism and the slowness and this, but the violation for how is it being accepted?

I know there was all this launch events and we did a lot and we talked about it. I know you were at the Pharma 4.0 conferences, talked about it. How is the interest? Is it there. 

Michelle Vuolo: I think the interest is there for sure. Again, it's this cultural shift, right? Like the cultural shift is going to be the hardest.

It is perceived to be this very different thing and innovative thing and a step back, right? What I think is the focal point that needs to be driven is risk-based. Control based, things like that. And data based, right? Not document based. Again, it's gonna take time for people to adopt it. Like one of the things that comes to my mind is everybody knows C-S-V-C-S-A.

Like just speaking in terms of talking to customers, I think customers tend to be very proud when they say we've adopted, or we've implemented CSA and I'm like. Okay. What does that actually mean to you though? C-S-A-C-S-V, like for me, those are just terms locked in certain methodologies.

There's a statistic saying that the adoption of CSA has, improved efficiency and effectiveness and decreased costs and validation projects and such. And I'm, it blows my mind because at the end of the day, it's really about risk-based. And this gets back to my cultural 

point. 

Gilad Langer: You mean it, it's not surprising at all.

Why is it even 

Michelle Vuolo: no, it's surprising. That they're getting the change in productivity and cost savings because of CSA, and here's my reason, right? It seems counter to what I'm trying to say, but CSV has been risk-based all along, right? So I don't see the paradigm shift. I don't see a big shift between CSV and CSA, but I think what the change is, and this gets back to my cultural point, is because FDA.

Put out CSA, it now gives, the keys or the license to the regulated industries. Oh, we're supposed to be doing risk based now and we can actually document less. I think that's where that comes from, which is mind blowing to me because. 

Gilad Langer: But don't you think it's inherent in the culture?

So quality people are, don't like risk. So telling them to do risk based is against everything. It's not even belief, it's in, in everything in their DNA. It's like it's against intuition. It's against their instincts, against everything. Oh, you need to take a risk. They don't like that. That's why the cultural change is so hard.

However, if they're told to be, to do that, because they're very also very authoritative, right? So FDS says, you shall. Oh, okay. Now we have to and we do it. So that may be a, an answer to why it's going on. But you're right, I mean there's a lot of, we follow CSA and like talking about it versus doing it.

'cause they talk that they do, but they don't. They kinda manipulate everything but. I think those, that, that stat, the improvement that like, I think it was 25%. I think the potential improvement is close to 90%. The 25% is just because they've eliminated a few documents and they're doing a bit faster, but there's just so much more to gain.

In one of my blogs, I emphasized the potential of digital technologies on for the pharma industry and, adopting validation 4.0 and some of the other principles in Pharma 4.0. There's just so much to gain, but you, the more profit margin you have, the, the bigger you are, even a 1% cut is huge.

Economies 

Michelle Vuolo: of scale. Yeah. 

Gilad Langer: It, exactly. And so there's just so much for them to save. And I think that's what we're seeing in that stat as well with agen ai. I think that, you know this an application, if you apply violation 4.0, 

Michelle Vuolo: you said it first. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. Validation, ai. Yeah. Yeah. With ai, the whole compliance is just gonna become seamless.

It's gonna be an afterthought. There's not, I don't think there's gonna be people in organizations that have a compliance role. It's just gonna be orchestrated by. That's an 

Michelle Vuolo: important point. Let's dig into that a little bit more, because. What do you mean compliance? Is compliance versus quality? What?

Explain why you think.

Gilad Langer: Compliance is adhering to rules, right? Yeah. Like doing, showing and proving that we are compliant to the regulation per se. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah, 

Gilad Langer: that's an agent's work. An agent will do it. Infinitely better than that. 'cause it has access to all information, all the document, and even in an audit perspective, Hey agent, show me proof that we are compliant with look, can you give me the, this batch record?

It seems that it was over tolerance at that point. Can you show me the investigation? It's instantaneous. Here it is, right? How do we do that today? Oh, we prepare for that pre-audit. People run around to Iron Mountain and go pick up documents and all that other stuff and prepare it on a table. That's a week worth of work for I don't know how many people that is transformed to less than a second of an agent giving you that information.

Michelle Vuolo: So if the agents are doing that. What's this quality piece? 

Gilad Langer: The quality, we should do quality, right? Quality is quality. Like you can't change that. We, quality assurance is a thing and all companies have to do it. And AI's gonna be in there as well, but it's more about true understanding of the impact of something in, in your process to product safety and the effectivity of your drugs.

Sorry, I brought it up a bit earlier than we thought we were gonna do, but Yeah. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah. I think the point is that AI is literally everywhere and you can't really have a conversation without it. I think it's an important thing though, as we think about how we are implementing these digital tools and implementing technical controls to support, increasing our quality stature of our products and patient safety and all that.

Great stuff. How do we use AI to focus in on meeting the compliance needs, but allowing our humans, maybe or humans in consult with these agents to provide better quality or maybe faster quality or better products to market, like getting increased confidence in our next dose and all those great things?

How do we incorporate. AI into these flows. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. So fir first of all, we have to, again, disambiguate the whole AI thing, right? 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah. 

Gilad Langer: Really what we're talking about is digital technologies. AI is a fundamental thing there. So we've been talking about digital technologies all along. The step number one in digital technology, which is still something the industry has to do regardless of ai, is that data has to be digital.

When did we write the article about get, get outta the document. Mindset 

Michelle Vuolo: 2020 think. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. 2020, yeah. 

Michelle Vuolo: Breaking the document mindset. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah exactly. We need to have data digitally. Of course, with new digital technology, it doesn't have to be in a database per se. It can be a, an electronic document.

It can be pictures and videos and many other things before, different modalities. But that is what digital is. Yeah. AI is one of the technologies that is going to help us. One thing sift through digital thing, but. AI is also a fundamental technology for other digital technologies. So AI is embedded in all video streaming and video interpretation, for example, in text to speech, at a basic level.

But there's also all sorts of technologies that are gonna be enhanced by ai, a Tulip being one of them, right? So we're looking at using AI in many different ways. For example, to help you build apps or to interpret a video stream. As one right to Trond on a curve. And of course the whole agent piece of it is to help you interpret data as well.

So AI is an overarching, one of the digital technologies, digital being one, but it's also a tool that's gonna enhance other digital technologies. It's everywhere. In anywhere, right? So we have to think about it from that perspective. And what it means is, number one, be digital. Now, once it's digital, we can apply digital technologies.

AI is gonna be able to. Develop these technologies faster and give you the results that you want faster. So back to the speed, it's gonna accelerate everything and the speed that we've never seen before, or the speed that's going to ingrain deep anxiety in every quality person in the industry for sure.

Because can I control it? That's like I need to be able to control it. So when we talk about agentic ai, that's actually the easiest. Problem to solve from a compliance perspective because agents really are like team members, right? So think about it like a person that you can train but it doesn't need to eat or sit or sleep or anything.

And you can be as smart as you want 'em to be. And he can do all the work for you. And the output. Like any human output, an agent output needs to be reviewed and needs to go to process. So we don't even need to change any of our processes, 

Michelle Vuolo: right? 

Gilad Langer: Whether an agent created validation plan or three people wrote the validation plan, there's no difference.

We still need to review it and check it and do like we all do in anything. On top of that, we can't have an agent that checks it. So as you as an orchestrator go, I have an agent that. Created the validation plan. I have an agent that goes through the validation plan and flags it and red lines it for me.

And all I have to do is okay, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad. Here's my comments. I'm done. Think about the productivity improvement. This, but again, human in the loop, right? It's, and our pro, we don't need to change processes like our, whatever flow we put in place to approve. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah. 

Gilad Langer: Whatever documents are still valid.

Michelle Vuolo: It just, it reminds me of we've been talking about review by exception for so long. I don't really know that many people who have actually fully implemented it. Yeah. In a real way. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. We look at the exception, but then we look at everything else also. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah. But this is like more fully enabling that further.

Yeah. Maybe. We'll, yeah. Adopt it better. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. One of many things that can apply to it again, and that I think that 25% can be easily be 90%. 

Michelle Vuolo: Absolutely. 

Gilad Langer: If not more and then comes Annex 22. 

Michelle Vuolo: Oh gosh, yes. Infamous, famous. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. 

Michelle Vuolo: I don't really know. So 

Gilad Langer: I know that, you have actually an interesting story because you were at the conference where the person who wrote the Annex 22, 1 of the main authors was, can you share a bit of that?

I thought that was pretty interesting. 

Michelle Vuolo: Yeah. So just like a little history like. Annex 22, as is an annex of the EMA guidelines, and there's different annexes, most notably known, probably widely, especially in the computer system space, is Annex 11, which talks about basically validation and computerized systems, electronic records and signatures and all that good stuff.

They're making an update to that as well. At the same time, they put out a draft of Annex 22 a draft of a new version, like it's a new annex. And 

Gilad Langer: what's the Annex 22. 

Michelle Vuolo: Artificial intelligence. So the industry sprinted towards it, like consumed it ferociously, right? And lots of comments.

So it was very interesting that first draft, because I also wanna put a little bit of timeline on that. I think that came out Q3 timeframe ish last year. 

Gilad Langer: QQ three last, okay. 

Michelle Vuolo: Last year, 2025. So it was probably written. In Q1, just knowing how long these things take for review before they even send 'em out for review.

Yeah. Which, let's face it, that was the beginning of 2025, right? Like the story of AI is very different. One year ago from today. It's very different. Anyway, that was written under that timeframe. And anyway the com a lot of comments. I think a lot of industry had given back a lot of comments. In fact, there were over 

Gilad Langer: a thousand comments, right?

Michelle Vuolo: Oh yeah. Like it was crazy. He gave a bunch of stats, this gentleman that presented and even gave us a heat map, which was interesting. 'cause Annex 22 is like very short document. It's I dunno, five or six pages maybe. He gave us a heat map of where, what sections were the most comments, and it was really, it was like mind blowing.

I was like, oh, thank God. They feel the same way I do. But it was overly prescriptive and obviously not just my opinion. Like I said, the heat map showed that lots of people were commenting on what sections. 

Gilad Langer: The initial interpretation was that you cannot use AI and GMP. 

Michelle Vuolo: Critical GMP. Yeah. Okay. So critical.

Not like what's critical. That's not defined, so that's, in the eyes of the beholder there. But it was interesting saying that like certain types of AI couldn't be used in these types of use cases and it really didn't give an opportunity to about downstream controls or human in the loop or whatever.

So it was very interesting. What I did take away from what he presented is okay, we hear you. We will be trying to incorporate some of this comments and the feeling was that, there will be some other sentiments in that allows for some other downstream controls. And there, there will be a big difference in the version that actually comes out.

So what I find found on that whole thing very interesting is that the entire industry is very excited that, again. Regulators are telling them how to do it or the guidelines guideposts within which they need to work. And that makes people feel like regulated. People feel comfortable, but also through the commenting process that the regulators are now hearing and maybe potentially learning from what industry is currently thinking about this technology and how to use it.

And then they're gonna adopt some changes or adapt, I should say. 

Narrator: Yeah, 

Michelle Vuolo: that's a really. Great story is that they put it out there, industry had some input. There will be an update 

Gilad Langer: Annex 11 or part 11, not an, data integrity guideline. Isn't that sufficient? Do we really need another regulation or an ai?

Michelle Vuolo: It's a really great question, right? Because right now we're talking AI this, AI that I think you're charting to make some sort of strides and saying it's everywhere. Let's just put the relevant controls in and be done. Is it just another technology that doesn't need its own specific documentation on, one could argue yes. I think what. Again, my opinion is that they are specifying specific controls for a specific use case. Not use case, but a specific type of technology, right? Specific considerations that need to be, 

Gilad Langer: I agree that the industry needs it because they're just floundering and they're anxious and they don't know this.

And so yes, to promote adoption, et cetera. I think the regulators need to say, look. Here's their guidelines and you need to use it because they need to progress. But I think, and this, when we look back, I don't know, in five to 10 years, I think we realized that we actually had the controls that we, you know?

Yeah. And the other thing is, right now we're in the beginning of 26 and yes, genetic ai, and it's the hottest and the newest and everything. We have no idea what January 27 is gonna look like. That thing, this thing is going to develop so fast, I imagine new use cases for it. Every time I talk to a customer, every time I sit in a room and go, oh.

We could use it for that. We could use it this way, we can do it that way. There's just so much of it. We're preparing for a workshop this week and it's with a customer, DCS integration, ISA 88 and that type of stuff. And the question is, how do we integrate Tulip to. A DCS with IS 88.

You're naturally, okay, look, there's a master recipe, there's all this great stuff, and how do you map it, et cetera. And I said, wait a second. I don't need to know anything about IS 88. I'm just gonna have an agent that's an expert in 88, and I'm gonna say, look, this is my batch record and here's composability, and I wanted you to create a few apps and tell me what's the best way to integrate to 88.

Not only that, it took literally five minutes to create the agent, and it gave me the response, and then I could tell it. For this batch record, gimme the equipment model in is 88. Spits it out, Jason Code, right? So 10 minutes of thinking of some new use case and on it goes. 

Michelle Vuolo: I think I saw a metric somewhere, maybe it was Xenia, who puts out a bunch of webinars.

They did a poll, and what they're showing or hearing is that adoption is outpacing regulation. And I think that's really empowering because what it's saying is like. We're using it. We're seeing the value so much that we're gonna go ahead and march forward, and if regulation catches up or if regulation doesn't change and we are using great principles that we've already learned from our G XPS and all that kind of stuff to implement the appropriate controls.

Then maybe we have a rans answer. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah, exactly. And I think we can also see it, usually I start any kind of ISP presentation with this what we started all the data is still on documents and we need to make it digital, right? Yeah. We have some stats as well. 80% of the data and life sciences is documents, PDFs, and unstructured.

Not only unstructured, sometimes it's paper. Some of these agent technologies help you close that gap, right? We talk, we see it in the kind of the logbook use case where companies are coming to us and say, look, we have tens of thousands of different forms and we just need to. Make them digital. So to your point, they see that there's need and there's something they can do.

And like step number one is that, so one thing that actually does puzzle me, right? Because we know Excel rules the world and Excel is, and even the FDA, if you take a look at the warnings that they've issued, it's around having data that's un in uncontrolled documents, like Excels and things 

Michelle Vuolo: unvalidated spreadsheet.

Gilad Langer: And the spreadsheets, these use cases, where to move that into digital is really where this, and it's a good, I think it's a good easy step. And also with that you can, apply. You can use an agent to say, pick the spreadsheet and move it to a digital form. Especially in tool we can take a spreadsheet and make an app out of it in this and 

Michelle Vuolo: almost with a press 

Gilad Langer: button.

Yeah. So now we only need to get it's, oh, but then we need to validate because it's digital. Okay. 

Michelle Vuolo: I wanna wrap us up. Can you leave us with one major word of wisdom that can maybe, I don't know, inspire or people can practically apply to try to increase their velocity? I think increasing velocity of execution is really the focus for this year.

Gilad Langer: Yeah, this is the holy Grail. We have put together a framework that's called composability, right? And composability is the ultimate representation of all the method and tools that I've a amassed over my my career. The research I did back in the nineties. Talked about multi-agent systems.

It's literally written, we actually had them multi-agent systems. So agents is not a new thing. So composability really gives you the tool to take a look. And it also applies to validation. 'cause the fifth pillar of compostability is validation 4.0, and it also applies to the agent framework. So we have expanding composability to define what.

Gen framework is, I think the message is, look, this is coming at us at speed. We need to act now because if we don't act now, we're gonna be left behind. I think that's valid for all pharmaceuticals companies. We, talk about chins and speed. I manage a team in apac. I see what's going on there.

Some of the pharma companies and how fast they move and how they're not bound. They're not shackled by baggage around this long takes validation and all this other stuff. They actually do it and if we don't do something about it, they will win. And it's not bad. Drugs coming out of Asia is good, but if we want to capitalize on the order of magnitude of productivity gain that these technologies are supposed to give us, then we need to act now.

Yeah. Act now, you can still do if you're a quality person with full control. We have a framework for that. It's called composability. I've written about it at length. Do we have a white paper coming out? Finally, after all the politics and the bureaucracy of ISP, you're gonna come out soon. That is actually gonna have a very a simple practical way of how you apply validation 4.0 risk-based approaches and critical thinking, validating digital content that is going to reduce your validation effort to literally zero.

If you do it right, let's catch up and let's move forward. You can move forward with control. It's 

Michelle Vuolo: challenge, the status quo. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. That it's always something I end up with. Yeah. We can't change the world with old world thinking.

Michelle Vuolo: For sure. It's great catching up. Yeah, 

Gilad Langer: same here.

Michelle Vuolo: We should do it more often. Yeah. When you're not traveling to the other side of the world. 

Gilad Langer: Yeah. Invite me to Boston next time when there's not a storm, please. 

Michelle Vuolo: I know. We love the snow here. I know. 

Gilad Langer: Great. Thank you very much. 

Michelle Vuolo: Of course. 

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the Augmented Ops podcast from Tulip Interfaces.

We hope you found this week's episode informative and inspiring. You can find the show on LinkedIn and YouTube or at Tulip dot co slash podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating or review on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until next time.