Copy of Zero - Alexander Lichter
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Paige: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Pod Rocket, a web development podcast brought to you by Log Rocket. Hey everyone. I am your host today, Paige Needing House, and we are joined by Alexander Lichter, the Derell at Void Zero. Here to talk about void. Welcome to the show, Alex.

Alexander: Yeah. Thanks for having me again. It's ~uh, ~always a pleasure to be on a podcast.

Absolutely. And void has been making a lot of news lately, so it is, ~you know, ~it's exciting times. We're glad to have you here to talk about it. ~So, ~for people who are not as familiar, could you tell us just a little bit about what is void ~for those who are not in the know?~

Yes. ~Uh, ~it's actually interesting because void hasn't been released so far. Also, when the podcast airs, there might be a beta already, but,~ uh,~ not, no, like public global, available release. So void itself? ~Well, let's, ~let's think about that. We at Void Zero, we think a lot about developer productivity, right? ~Uh, ~we've released the plus unified tool chain to do all of it local, but.

At some point the realization came ~like, ~look, the local part and the local experience is only one part of the equation. So what's the other part? And the answer there is the platform. So [00:01:00] we decided to build a deployment platform that works together with your code base. So instead of,~ well,~ wrestling with infrastructure, your code is your infrastructure, and we make sure that everything you need,~ um,~ from databases to KV storage, object storage, et cetera, et cetera, is deployed based on your needs and your code.

So you don't have to wrestle with that. Plus you can just use devoid SDK to interact with the platform. So if you say, okay, I need some database, you use the database,~ uh,~ function from devoid SDK and we'll make sure everything works right out of the box. The other part is of course, developer experience and also a bit of AI nativeness and the current,~ um,~ times especially.

So the idea is that everything is very intuitive. Works out of the box with your favorite frameworks and meta frameworks. We can use it with, I don't know, sack Knox. ~Well, ~the only thing is it is V specific, so if you don't have a V application, that might be difficult. But even then you can deploy plain spas if you want to a static sites or even like whole backends if you use well devoid SDK for that and API routes that are [00:02:00] based on ho no to deploy all of that.

So I would say void. To wrap it up in one sentence is deployment platform that integrates well with your code and gives you through that a wonderful developer experience.

Paige: So really the only meta framework that you're talking about when you say it doesn't integrate well with V is next Js

Alexander: Unless you use vx, ~right. Um, ~but yes,~ that's,~ that's correct. ~Um, that's, ~that's a very simple architectural,~ um,~ like limitation there. And,~ um, well ~hopefully,~ uh,~ the other, like you can use reactant ~and, ~and v and then for example, some page-based routing features with void if you need their a p routes and you get,~ uh,~ a great developer experience.

So that's always an option.

Paige: Yeah, and I mean everybody who develops except for Next JS has great V integration. I think every, it's the most popular, like whenever there are surveys, so I don't see it being a problem that V is the main. ~You know, ~driver of this.

Alexander: Yeah, and also it allows us to do a lot more things, right? We don't have to make assumptions over how your tax stack might look like, and the fact that void itself at ~the ~the SDK and everything, it's integrated also [00:03:00] partially as a v plugin, also shows how flat. Flexible vda. And the best part that like we didn't have to change v or anything, it's, it stayed as it is.

We could just develop with ~the, ~the current plugin,~ uh,~ infrastructure and ecosystem. So that also shows how powerful vda in the end, and that's important to mention, V will stay platform agnostic. Like nothing will change on there.

Paige: Beautiful. So you mentioned that there is an SDK and the Void Deploy command is ~kind of like, ~it seems like the thing that does everything. It builds your app, it runs migrations, it provisions resources, and deploys it. Can you talk a little bit about what's happening under the hood when it's doing all of this for users?

Alexander: Yeah. ~So, uh, ~a couple of things actually, and that also might be subject to change given on the feedback we get, but in the end,~ it,~ it depends what your app needs. If it's just, okay, I have a static SPA, it'll build it and we'll send it up to our platform, right? Void. The Void platform is built on top of CloudFlare, so in the end, you get a CloudFlare work out of that.

But if you say, okay, I have a database schema. I need some migrations to be executed, then that will also be covered. Assets will be uploaded. ~Um, ~we have crunch up support, queue support, et [00:04:00] cetera. All that will be scaffolded ~and, ~and sent up there. So really everything is covered. What is in your need. And if you say, okay, look, ~I ~I don't want to use a database like a D one database hosted.

You can use Postgres for hyperdrive, or you can use also something totally external that's up to you. Then it's, that's not managed for void. Everything that we can do for you, we're happy to do.

Paige: ~I mean, ~I think that's always what, especially front end developers, but developers in general are looking for, I don't wanna think about my Terraform files. I don't wanna think about what configs or adapters I have. I just wanna push it up and have it go live and work.

Alexander: Yes. ~That's, ~that's the goal in the end, right? And for example, combined with V plus itself, just imagine you start a project with vp, create. You can scaffold it. You have all the local tool chain there with your formatter, your lender V as a well dev server build tool with rolled on as bundle. And then you just need void deploy and you're good to go.

And ~I mean, ~at the current stage we don't even have a dashboard because things are so simple and we wanna make sure that it stays that way simple and manageable so that everything is it. It just works.

Paige: [00:05:00] Nice. So one of voids big ideas, which you mentioned earlier, is your code is your infra. ~Um, ~so the platforms scans your source code. It automatically provisions what do you, what you need. How does that work and are there any limits to that approach that you should call out to developers who are considering it?

Alexander: Yes. So as mentioned, if you use the void SDK, then it's pretty simple to infer ~what, ~what parts are your of your need, right? ~Uh, ~let's say use the data database function called and we can take a look at that. Or if you have a drizzle schema, migrations folder set up, et cetera, you can always opt out. So there's always a way to say, Hey, I don't want a database.

I don't want the off you provide. I don't want, I don't know, some API routes,~ I,~ I wanna roll my own. ~Um, ~and given that you can use it with meta frameworks that,~ uh, is, ~is a perfect pairing. So we don't force you to say, okay, you have to rewrite your application to use everything we provide. If you say, Hey, I wanna just deploy it in the white platform, my, my other resources somewhere else, it's fine.

Or, okay, I want step by step, integrate, then the database, then maybe KV store or stay with something somewhere else, it's, that's perfectly fine and it works. ~Um, ~limitations, I would say [00:06:00] that depends on what you use, if you like, before come from, let's say a v application with react views. ~Well, ~so ~like ~not a meta framework per se.

Then things should work as before. Everything that has just been a v plugin. That's all right. If you use for example, analog,~ um,~ next or swell kit, so they're based on Nitro, you might have some limitations because Nitro is bundling things a bit differently. But that's all also outlined on the docs and ~uh, ~you and your agent will also know about that.

But ideally, there are also in the future ways around that. So of course, we also wanna work closely together with the framework maintainers to make sure everybody gets the best experience.

Paige: Nice. So Void is built on Cloudflare's global network, which is great. It seems like a lot of people, or a lot of frameworks lately are going towards CloudFlare Redwood, SDK,~ uh,~ M Dash Astro, the Astro team. So what does it mean for developers in terms of what they can and can't do because it's built on CloudFlare.

Alexander: Yeah, so of course the typical worker limitations, they apply, right? Like [00:07:00] long living connections or services running, like on your, I don't know, private VPS, that might be a bit difficult. Sure, we have durable objects. There are a couple ways around that, but. Still these limitations apply. I think one big benefit though, compared to the scenarios that you've mentioned is that you don't have to wrestle with yet another account.

So you don't need your own CloudFlare account. You don't need to go through all the, as we said before, provisioning processes, managing resources, but this is basically taken from you and done automatically. ~Uh, ~other than that, yeah. Limitations are very similar to that. And ~as ~as mentioned, you. You might get a certain vendor log in as you already work with CloudFlare workers.

You have some things and some features that you might use, but I think this is similar with a lot of integrated platforms. And you're free to say, Hey, I don't want ~that, ~that's okay. Or ~like, ~I don't wanna host on, on CloudFlare, then void is not for you. And then ~we're very, ~we're very open with that. ~Um, ~other than that, I think given that we handle a lot of these things and provision stuff.

For you, we basically contribute to that developer experience. So some [00:08:00] people might think, okay, there's some vendor login and yeah, sure. If you use all the platform features and you wanna migrate off that from one day to another, that might be a bit more difficult. But that's the same if you use different vendors, then you have to migrate from different vendors to different places too.

Paige: Yeah, I know people talk so much about this, but it seems like whenever you choose any sort of third party SaaS tool. Or auth or whatever. You're ~kind of ~committing yourself a little bit to vendor lock in no matter what. There's gonna be some pain trans, ~you know, ~going from one to another no matter what you choose.

So if it's ~kind of ~a one-stop shop, which is what it sounds like Void is trying to be, that doesn't sound so bad to me.

Alexander: No, actually ~that's, ~that's the case, right? ~Uh, ~we try to get everything under one hat and give this cohesive experience so we don't have to like, wrestle with ~different, ~different services and try to plumb everything together. And there are also some choices. Let's say for example, off where you, if you don't want to use our, scaffold it off, it's fine.

It's not a problem that will not make your experience avoid worse.

Paige: Awesome. ~Um, ~so you talked a little bit about void [00:09:00] versus v plus, but how does Void fit into the bigger picture of void zero alongside V plus for anybody who was thinking about it but wasn't quite sure how they work together or stand alone?

Alexander: Yes. So this ties a bit,~ uh,~ into what I said before. In a way, void and v plus ~are, ~are separate, right? ~Um, ~sure you can use v plus ~with, ~with everything the ecosystem. So you can do ideally with void as long as V specific. But I think if you want to have the best developer experience out there and once you can also try out void.

So given that I worked with them for quite a while. I can say that, but once you get your hands on that, then ~uh, I, ~I definitely suggest to try that. It's just to have ~the, ~the local part, everything in your developing tool chain. And you see I covered by v plus from ~like ~git hooks from Yeah. Your format dinging, your testing,~ uh,~ and so on and by the underlying tools.

But then you don't need one,~ like,~ you don't need tons of dependencies. You have V plus itself and everything will be managed. ~Um, ~and that's your local part. And then for the deployment part, you have void. I think this is. ~Kind of ~like ~the, ~the nicest [00:10:00] developer experience stack with the, I would say, fastest and like next generation tools than you can get,~ uh,~ at the moment.

And once you can try it out for sure too, for v plus itself. ~Sorry, just, just to add on there. Yeah. V plus it's~ MIT license, it's free. ~Um, ~some people might have remembered that original plan was a bit different, but I'm very happy that eventually we decided to not go the way to try to monetize v plus instead make sure it, this is.

Free forever for everyone under MIT. ~Um, ~so that's also how at the end void should be our main business model. And ~well, uh, that's, ~that's a good news for everyone.

Paige: That's absolutely good news. Do you offer some sort of a free tier or a trial for people who are interested? And void, but aren't quite sure if that's the right move for them.

Alexander: Yes, absolutely. So we will offer a generous, free tier. I can't de give any details at ~the, ~the current time being. ~Uh, ~but that's definitely a plan. ~Um, ~and we also wanna make sure that the open source world ~can, ~can benefit from it as much as possible. But yeah, details sooner when we come to public. BR ga.

Paige: Great. So V eight is shipped and it's shipped with rolldown, which is ~a, ~a big change and a big [00:11:00] improvement from the. Previous ES build and roll up model that you had before,~ um,~ real world numbers are showing just massive speed improvements for big companies. ~Uh, ~46 seconds to six seconds. Other things just, it's just amazing.

Are those numbers that you're sharing, are they representative of what ROLLDOWN can do or are they more like outliers in the community?

Alexander: So I think like Nutanix improvement is definitely like something that's achievable in the end. It all depends on your setup. So one of the things that's a bit tricky is always when it comes to React applications and the React compiler because. Rack compiler uses payable, and that means just way slower builds than if you don't use the rack compiler.

~Um, ~that's the unfortunate downside that you have to parse the a ST ~again and ~again and then even roll down a bundler can't do much because we have to wait for the process. ~Um, ~same with a lot of things. If you use some custom plugins or some, let's say, same ~for, ~for lynching in the end, like if you lose use load lynch rules, that's not necessarily the linter.

That's,~ uh,~ that's the problem there. Yeah,~ we've,~ we've seen [00:12:00] really, we've seen with rolldown, people migrating over TV to eight build time improvements ~that are, ~that are stellar. And it's,~ I'm,~ I'm so happy for all the people who can experience that. I'm even more grateful for the people who tried it out ~in, ~in the beta.

~Right. ~Last time we talked,~ um,~ about rolldown ~on, ~on the podcast,~ we,~ we also had the case like, okay, there is a beta available, people can try it out there was rolled on V and ~it's, ~it's so nice that everybody can get into,~ uh, these, ~these beautiful numbers now.

Paige: So for. A, a developer who is considering switching over, are there certain stacks or certain application styles that you think would benefit most from Rolldown and the speed?

Alexander: ~Uh, ~I think it's not necessarily about application styles. ~I mean, ~everything that's feed-based should get ~a, ~a decent bump. ~Uh, ~it's, it really comes down to ~like ~what dependencies use which plugins. So there are a couple of things. We have a migration guide which make things easier to migrate because. I mean with Rolldown, this was the biggest architectural changes in that came to V since ~like ~V two.

So since it actually became like open for everyone got re-architected. And ~with, ~with that, of course we [00:13:00] try to make it as smooth as possible. A lot of people, they can switch and there are no problems. We still have a migration guide because there are some changes that people have to be aware of. And other than that, there's also a plugin registry now, so you might use a plugin that is not necessary because Rolldown can now do it under the hood, and then you can get rid of that, which also means you save a lot of time during build.

Paige: Absolutely. That's always great when you can move. Remove dev dependencies.

Alexander: Indeed, especially with the latest supply chain attacks. ~Well, ~we rather have less than more, right?

Paige: Absolutely. So we talked a little bit about Void versus CEL versus some of the other platforms that you could lock in. It seems like you're positioning yourselves as an alternative to cel with V as the main powerhouse behind it. ~Um, ~are there any places where you think the comparison holds up better versus where maybe it doesn't compare as much or it breaks down a little bit?

Alexander: ~Well, ~I think we'll see a lot of that when people actually can get a hand on, and I think I would rather like the people to tell me what they think about a platform than like me sharing my thoughts on [00:14:00] that, because obviously I'm biased. So far, like right now we have a couple alpha testers, of course, all the core members of the big open source projects,~ um,~ of the V stack, so to say.

They can already give it a try. And,~ um, it's, ~it's nice to say so, so many people feel that things feel very well, very cohesive, very well fit together, and that's the idea there. ~Um, ~I think besides that, there is one thing that we just wanna make sure that we're clear about. And ~I, ~I mentioned it, but it doesn't hurt to, to repeat it like first.

Just because there's void, it doesn't mean that we will go into ~like ~a void only direction. For us, it's very important that these are two separate things. And the other thing is that we're very clear about our constraints and very upfront with what we're doing, and in the end, how this should benefit both void, zero as a business, but also and most of the foremost open source.

Paige: It almost seems like you've taken an approach similar to VS Code where everybody can download the IDE. They could use all the plugins and the marketplace is free for everybody. But if you want like GitHub copilot or something. You do have to start paying a little extra, ~but you know, ~everything else is just [00:15:00] available to the whole community no matter what Forevermore.

Alexander: Yes. ~I, ~I think this is a, I think it's quite interesting in comparison and it, I think it holds up to some degree because. Obviously somehow the bills have to be paid first for the people avoid zero working all the open source projects full-time. But of course, also they're the open collectors for ~like ~VV test, OXC, et cetera.

~Uh, ~and all the countless,~ uh,~ contributors and core members that are also not employed at

Paige: ~Mm-hmm.~

Alexander: And we really hope that ~V will help sustaining open source. And through that the tools will be better no matter if you, uh, sorry, void will help. There we go~ void, will help sustaining open source,~ uh,~ and make things better ~for v, ~for V test, et cetera.

No matter if you use the deployment platform or not. And,~ um,~ that would be a great outcome for the whole ecosystem.

Paige: Do you think anybody on the VT team will work on V next and help to make that a more stable meta framework?

Alexander: That's interesting. I potentially,~ uh,~ hard to say. For me. ~I, ~I think ~the whole, ~the whole thing is interesting to see that in the end we can also get next like capabilities and even the same API with feed. ~Um, ~what I'm more interested is though that people from different platforms,~ uh,~ or platform providers, so like.~ like.~

Elle, CloudFlare, Netlify, et cetera, it, [00:16:00] they get more involved with V and maybe even join the core team. ~I mean, ~I know we've have ~like ~a couple of people from,~ uh,~ these companies being ~really, ~really well integrated into like ecosystem calls and shaping the future because there's one thing that's still not fully stable and that's the ecosystem.

API. I think ~when, ~when that launches like full on and not in experimental anymore and is like finished in that sense, as much as software can be finished, I think that will be ~a, ~a big step for v ~uh, ~same for like people using different meta frameworks on top of feed, like getting together, figuring out how we can help them building better frameworks or ease some pains.

~Um, ~yeah, that, that would be beneficial I think.

Paige: Yeah, if nothing else, I think V NEXT kind of lit a fire under ~the ~the team at NEXT JS to make the adapters better so that it can be more transferable, even though it's still not exactly easy to take it anywhere else for hosting.

Alexander: That's true. That's true though I have to say the next adapters, they were apparently in the making for a while already. ~Uh, ~but still it's,~ uh,~ it fires up ~the, ~the social media hype around it for [00:17:00] sure.

Paige: That's as good as anything that you can hope for. Oh, so the Void platform has MCP support, and that is for AI coding agents to help them be able to scaffold and deploy the apps autonomously. How far does that actually go today? Can you really just say to your agent, your cursor, your co-pilot, your Claude, just do it for me?

Alexander: So I, I can tell a fun story about that actually. ~Um, ~when I started like using Void for the very first time,~ uh,~ docs ~were, ~were rough,~ uh,~ because ~they, ~they were not available anymore after the release, so people can't like snoop around and everything, which makes sense. And there was the seal eyes there, ~which is, ~which is still around.

But there was little to no help. And I was like, okay, I just, ~you know, I, ~I get going, get my hands dirty. Tried out. ~Hmm. ~Manually didn't work. And I was like, you know what? I'll just use, in this case cloud code. I was like, here, there you go. Here's basically, here's ~the, ~the thing, deployed and void. It just took a couple minutes and it worked.

So in that sense, I think there is a good example where, of course we had back then still a lot of work to do to make things better for humans,~ uh,~ which is [00:18:00] still an important focus of ours. But there, it already showed that our AI integration worked pretty well if AI could do it better, better than me in the first try.

So while there are still commands that well, you need human interaction, especially decision making, et cetera. Deploying itself works for agents. It works out to figure out problems to see what's, what is going wrong, if there is anything going wrong, what you might need to do. So there's enough info available already.

And I think ~I, ~I haven't had this, once again, this cohesive experience ever so far. And once I tried it out and ~it, ~it just worked. I was like, okay,~ this,~ this makes sense. ~I really, ~I really see where this is going.

Paige: Yeah, that, ~I mean, ~that's awesome because even though I use something like Netlify to host my own site, that's a static site. It still takes a couple tries to get it right because it's astro. So you go through, you watch it fail. You take the logs from the build, you post 'em into Claude. Claude figures out what's wrong, but it still is not just seamless.

End to end one. ~Try ~try, and you're done.

Alexander: Yeah. So ~that's, ~that's really something also for ~like ~[00:19:00] debugging issues or figuring out things,~ um,~ that helped a lot. So working with ai, trying to deploy, let's say, a playground with a new feature and seeing, okay, that fails. I have all the context around because the SDK is available, and as this will be open source, then that will also help say, okay, what functions are available?

~What, ~what can your application do with devoid SDK? Which then also shapes your decisions in terms of how should I build that feature so it works well on the platform and you have all these options. Now, your agent can also help you choosing a good one from an architectural point of view of what's available.

Paige: Awesome. So you said void is still an early access, not available for everybody yet. ~Um, ~but what should developers be thinking about before betting on it for production? Is there anything that they should consider before choosing it?

Alexander: ~Well, ~of course, once it's available,~ um,~ and in, in public beta, I would still, right now we're cautioned with like mission critical load. As soon as there's ga that's a different story obviously. But what is deployment print for? Platform you say ~like, ~yeah, only deploy demos. Of course not. ~Um, ~that's the only advice for people using it right now, but.

I think once you think of the fact, okay, this is hosted on [00:20:00] CloudFlare, this is the decision, you cannot easily move it to a different hoster in terms of, oh, can I have my KB store? So else? Yeah, but then it's your responsibility. So we talked about vendor lockin before. It's more ~like, ~do I put everything ~on ~on the void platform based on CloudFlare?

If you don't want to, for whatever reasons can be like legal, can be limitations that you have that just don't work ~with ~with CloudFare workers for whatever reasons, then that might be not for you, and that's fine, but. To be fair, I think there are not that many applications where this could apply. ~Um, ~or where this,~ like,~ let's say small edge cases couldn't be resolved than with a service somewhere else, or maybe with some help from the white platforms.

We're also always open for feedback there and see what people need. ~Um, ~but yeah, other than that,~ I,~ I think just being aware of the limitations and not expecting that things behave like a typical, I don't know, VPS,~ uh,~ Docker container Kubernetes cluster is similar.

Paige: Cool. What do you think it would take for void to become the default deployment target for vet? ~Um, ~the same way that kind of versal became the default for next Js.

Alexander: ~I'm, ~I'm not sure. I think ~it's, ~it's a bit difficult because [00:21:00] in the end, next and Versal, ~well ~next was there. Then Versal was quickly always ~like, ~okay, hosting is difficult for these things. Let's make it better. ~Um, ~while of course we wanna make sure we do give a great developer experience,~ uh,~ we still are like, we know Veed very well.

We know the ecosystem very well. We ideally can catch up with features. ~Uh, ~that other platforms might offer,~ uh,~ or basically have a compelling pricing ~and, ~and feature range there. But one thing that I don't see happen is that we like basically force it upon the users say ~like, ~Hey,~ you,~ you should use void here.

There will always be a choice. And that fits very well into ~the, ~the whole open source,~ uh,~ ecosystem, thoughts of being platform agnostic. But in the end, the platform itself should convince people say, Hey, this. This is phenomenal. Like great. I can get from ~like ~starting from a VP create to deploy in like less than five minutes and ~get, ~get everything I need for my application.

So prototyping works fast, MVPs work fast, just like getting things ready and validating works. Plus actual like live production ready. [00:22:00] Don't wanna say enterprise ready as the big buzzword, but even that,~ uh,~ platform,~ uh,~ applications work on the platform. I think the goal is to show that we can do that consistently and it works and it gives the best developer experience out there, right?

That's the goal.

Paige: ~Well, ~Alex, it's been great talking to you. Is there anything that you want people to know about Void that we haven't discussed yet?

Alexander: ~Um, well ~only make sure you sign up for ~the, ~the early access once it's getting out because,~ uh,~ we're always happy for feedback, as we said before, smaller badges to get started so we can iron out rough edges and it's as polished as it can get. ~Uh, ~for you to try it out and yeah. Other than that,~ um,~ try out all the tools right from ~like ~V plus that is free that we discussed.

~Um, ~if you don't use V yet, I don't know why not? ~So, uh, ~yeah, let us know.

Paige: Where should people go if they want to learn more about void? Talk to you about v plus, or just generally get involved with the whole V ecosystem.

Alexander: Yeah, for void, void.cloud is the way to go. There's also a link to the Discord server on there where we're quite active, so people chatting about v plus and Void, othered, all the other ecosystem projects, VV test cetera, own discord [00:23:00] service,~ uh,~ service as well. ~Um, ~so you can join them. If you say ~like, ~oh, I have a v specific question, or I wanna chat with people there, that's always a good option.

And otherwise,~ uh,~ I'm on all the social media you can think of, ~I suppose. Um, ~blue Sky, Twitter, LinkedIn if necessary. ~Uh, ~YouTube as well. We have a YouTube channel where we also show some, like deep dives, some ~um, ~some short information as well. So there are a couple ways to follow depending on what you prefer out there.

Paige: Excellent. ~Well, ~thank you for joining us on Log Rocket today. It's been great having you on the podcast again.

Alexander: for having me.