[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with Andy, Jodi, and Whitney from the parish support team coaches as we talk about how to break your clear path to discipleship. This is part two. We talk about five additional ways that you can accidentally break your clear path. See, building a clear path isn't rocket science, but sometimes it's easier than you think to accidentally break it. So we, uh, talk about what not to do and then. We talk about the best practices and the wisdom and how to avoid that on the other side. You're gonna love it. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go. Hey everybody. Welcome to the pcast. So. Today we are in part two of a two-part series, how to Break Your Clear Path of Discipleship Before you even get started. Uh, how do you break it and make sure it doesn't work. For those of you, if you have not checked out the, uh, first episode, we talk about the first five ways, uh, to break your clear path of disciple. If you're not familiar with a clear path of discipleship, a clear path is a parish framework designed to help people take their next steps as disciples of Jesus. It's your plan for making and maturing disciples. Parishes and ministries that have a clear path of discipleship, know exactly how they connect with people, how they introduce 'em to Jesus, how they help them grow and mature as disciples, and then how they equip them for their personal mission as missionary disciples. It really is a context, right? This is all about accompaniment helping. Individuals, one at a time, grow and mature. A clear path is a commitment to create a context within your faith community, whether that be a youth ministry or a parish, so that when your friend is ready to encounter Jesus or to grow and mature, that there's a place that they can come and experience that and be helped in that part of their journey. It's not rocket science. But it's easier to break than you might think. So, uh, today to help us talk through like how to avoid breaking your clear path to discipleship, we've got a panel of coaches here. We've got Andy Deka, Jodi Phillips, and Whitney Bradley. How you doing everybody? [00:02:21] Jodi Phillips: Pretty good. [00:02:22] Andy Dejka: Good to be back. [00:02:22] Jodi Phillips: I still have a girl voice. [00:02:23] Jim Jansen: You do still have a girl voice if that's weird. Uh, go back to like episode one. Um, so, alright, so just a disclaimer, there's not gonna be a lot of shout outs in this episode 'cause we're talking about like mistakes that people make. So we're not going to like say like, oh my gosh, let's talk about, you know, St. Isador guilty, or, you know, St. Rita's, they totally drop the ball on this. [00:02:45] Whitney Bradley: Um, maybe not quite protect the guilty, but, um, love the people we serve. We're, and not call them out on public radio. [00:02:51] Jim Jansen: It's one of the virtues, right? You to like to cover the sin of others. Not in a, like a cover up sort of way, but just to not like expose that. Okay, well now I'm... [00:03:00] Whitney Bradley: Are we digging the hole? [00:03:02] Jim Jansen: You guys, hear what we mean? Yes. [00:03:03] Whitney Bradley: Not what we say. [00:03:04] Jim Jansen: Oh, ouch. Okay. So, but there is a shout out. We do, uh, this is a shout out for our friends, Ron Huntley and Father James Mallon their episode of Right How to Their Podcast, how to Kill Alpha in 10 Easy's Steps. It's been around for a while now, but just, it's just come around. There's some new life, some parishes that are just finding the wisdom in there. So helpful and just getting 'em a shout out 'cause they were the inspiration for how to break your clear path. Okay, so Jodi, you're up. We're on number six here. If you wanna break your clear path to discipleship, just, just skip the connectors. What does that mean? [00:03:42] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. You know, I was, I was talking with one of my evangelization coordinators today about, about their clear path, and they were talking about just the reality that they have a lot of things going on in their parish, but they require a huge commitment. Hmm. And I think that's true of most of our, our steps on a clear path, right? To go through alpha, you have to commit to 11 weeks to go through, called and gifted. You have to go to an all day workshop and then up to six months of discernment to go through, reach one more. That's, I can't remember, eight to 10 weeks, right? Mm-hmm. There's all of these different things that require some commitment, but people aren't ready to make a commitment. And if you just have these things that require commitment, you know what you're gonna get. The same people every time who commit and show up at all the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And are actually overcommitted and then. [00:04:34] Whitney Bradley: And maybe burning out. [00:04:34] Jodi Phillips: And burning out. Right. But you know who you're not gonna get are the people who just aren't quite ready for that step. Right. And who just need someone to walk with them where they're at. [00:04:47] Jim Jansen: Right. Well or not ready or. Just not sold on that step. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't know what it is. Yep. And even the most brilliant pulpit announcement, even the most, you know, perfect flyer, this isn't enough for me to say like, okay, I'm in. [00:05:02] Jodi Phillips: Yep. [00:05:03] Jim Jansen: Like they need a friend. They need a friend. They need his friend who probably gives him an invitation like three or four times. [00:05:07] Jodi Phillips: Yep. [00:05:07] Whitney Bradley: And just to be clear, we're not just talking about like the left side of the thresholds here. Like I would consider myself on the missionary side and as an introvert, I need a friend for everything I go to. So we're talking about any stage of the clear path. Like, like I don't suddenly not need a mentor or a friend anymore just because I'm also mentoring and accompanying other people. [00:05:31] Jodi Phillips: Mm-hmm. [00:05:31] Jim Jansen: Right? [00:05:31] Jodi Phillips: Yep. [00:05:31] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:05:32] Jodi Phillips: I need someone with me. So yeah, what we're talking about is. Setting up structures of support and equipping missionary disciples who are just that missionary disciples who know how to walk with people who know how to accompany them where they're at, and know how to make really good invitations. And sometimes that means actually asking them not to over commit themselves to being involved in all of the ministries. So saying like, you know what? I need you to take a step back from running this mi, this ministry. Just be available. I sometimes, I look at myself that way in my own family of parishes that I, I, mm-hmm. I mean, I coordinate the Christian initiation process and I'm in a small group, but I'm not running any other ministries. I'm not on the Alpha team. Partially because I wanna make myself available to build relationships so that I can notice when people need an invitation to something else and I can connect them. [00:06:27] Jim Jansen: Right. [00:06:27] Jodi Phillips: I see myself as a connector. I don't know that I've ever really defined myself that way, but I sometimes I just say that I act by Septer. Fige. But really, really, I think in a more positive way, I'm, I'm a connector in my parish. And, and I, and I think that that's true. Right? So, but we have to build people up to do this. [00:06:45] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, I mean, talk about, this is, so I wanna talk about like how you build people up for that. Mm-hmm. But it just like, I wanna make sure that, you know, if somebody's like walking the dog or driving like what Jodi just said, there is golden like that people who could. Lead the ministry people who could coordinate another thing. You're like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't. Maybe it's your own boundary or maybe even more wisely as a leader, like, Hey, no, we actually don't want you to take on anything new. 'cause we want you to be available to accompany people, to connect them. To the next step when they're ready because flyers and announcements and simply having a program isn't enough. People have to be accompanied. They have to have a connector, which is, I mean, not just like, oh, and I'm gonna connect you and like, great, you signed up, see ya. But like I might go through Alpha with you. I might take the charism assessment again and go to the workshop with you. So that you have this accompaniment experience as you're growing and maturing wherever you're at in your journey. [00:07:49] Jodi Phillips: Mm-hmm. [00:07:50] Jim Jansen: Okay. So how do you, how do you build connectors? Mm-hmm. And I know, I mean, we can talk about this forever, but just a couple of ideas. [00:07:56] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. I mean, so a lot of it happens in the evangelization formation space, right? So that does sometimes require. Running a ministry, maybe it's reach one more. It could be called. And gifted and helping people to know their gifts and help them, equip them in the habits and skills of missionary, missionary discipleship. But I think also happens in small group ministry. Mm-hmm. Connecting people to another group of missionary disciples, perhaps in a small group where they're kind of working through and discerning really their role in the parish. 'cause that's just, it is like, I see myself, I'm not. I'm not a missionary disciple at odds with my parish, right? I'm not kind of out running right amuck, you know, which is like a pastor's nightmare. Um, like I see myself really at service both inside and outside. Intra and extra, right. Connecting people to the person of Christ. And I wanna be at service of all the things that are happening there, but I need to be connected and formed by my parish, by the people of my parish. [00:08:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And at the very least, you mentioned, okay, I need to know my charisms and I need to, you know? Like, have somebody, but I also need to know what's on offer. For people to grow and mature in this parish. Like, like what are, you know, what are our steps? Even if it's not fully built out, what do we offer for people at every step of, of the journey? The other thing that dawns on me, we use this all the time, but is like the threshold, the game, the threshold of conversion and discipleship. And you can find it on ClearPath book.com. You can find it on, you know, the EQUIP website, but like it's a what? 30 minute game conversation, some prayer. Okay. A little more than that with the conversation, but it's like what you do is it, it introduces individuals to the thresholds. Conversion and discipleship, and it gives a framework so that you're like, oh, now I know how to accompany this friend, and the instincts that I had about how to be a good friend just get a little bit sharper, and I'm able to kinda like connect the dots for how do I help that friend grow and mature in their journey. [00:09:58] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. I think this also really quickly, we talked about this on our other episode. Building your clear path slowly. [00:10:05] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:10:05] Jodi Phillips: And this just reemphasizes this because your growth of your missionary disciples is gonna be slow. And so what I see happening often is, okay, I've got 10 to 20 missionary disciples, which is not a small amount, by the way, in. Oh, that would be amazing. That's amazing. Right? And like we've formed them and we've equipped them, but now we need to start all of the ministries on our clear path. And guess what? Now they're all taken and they're all running these ministries and we have no connectors. Mm-hmm. Right? We have no one actually accompanying people, and they're all over committed. And sometimes we're asking them to run two or three. And all of those people are feeling so much zeal and passionate, like. Well, I have to do more. I have to do more because it's just like, feels like all their responsibility instead of saying, we're gonna run one. We need the rest of you to just walk with people and to be with people and to be really intentional about how important that is. Yeah, and to set a boundary there. [00:10:57] Jim Jansen: Oh, Jodi, as you're talking, like I feel like there's this kind of prophetic thing welling up in me. Like if you are trained for accompaniment. But I mean in any kind of like, okay, just workshop. Put your, oh, I experienced this in college. Maybe you were formed as a deacon or whatever. [00:11:12] Jodi Phillips: Through the mentorship program. [00:11:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah, whatever. Like if you know kind of how to accompany people and that's where your heart is, please do not spend time setting up tables at your parish. Don't spend time frying fish. Like, don't let, I mean, none of these things are bad and there's a great opportunity, I know lives have been changed 'cause somebody's first. Opportunity to to get involved was the invitation to set up tables. What I'm saying is, if you are gifted for accompaniment, if you have that desire and even the most small, minuscule amount of training. My gosh, like please use that to accompany people and help them grow. Don't spend your time on anything else. 'cause lots of people could do that and there's a precious view, especially at the start of this journey that can actually accompany. Yeah, I, I love what you guys are saying. It's right on. It makes me think of when I was an evangelization coordinator, newly starting outta parish in Seattle and. I, I was mistakenly thinking that the heart of the ministry was happening in the programs like planning from program to program, but it's really the accompaniment that happens after and between the programs, right? Like if we shifted our mindset to planning a. Around accompaniment seasons and then just use the programs as context and accelerators. I think we'd be more on the right track. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I mean, it's true. It's like, I mean, I'm a big small group, big bible study fan, but it's the conversation after Bible study one-on-one. You know, just Bill and I where like the real life change is happening. [00:12:42] Whitney Bradley: I just wanna add, like I appreciate that some people, like the body is, we're all different parts and we all have unique characteristics, and some people are gonna be more called to accompaniment than others, but I just maybe have this really strong belief that we are all called to accompaniment. And for some of us it might be one person, and for some of us it might be 12 people. [00:13:05] Jim Jansen: Right? [00:13:06] Whitney Bradley: But we all have to get good at relationship. And I think for me, I think that's the, the biggest thing that is currently broken in our church today is our inability to do relationship well. Together. [00:13:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Thank you. Well, and part of what you, I think you're pointing out here is, or maybe dispelling the lie, like it's not like some magical gifting. Like I have the, I have the accompaniment, charism. [00:13:30] Whitney Bradley: Charism. [00:13:30] Jim Jansen: Right? Like now there are charisms and gifting and temperaments and personality traits that may make a accompanying certain people easier for some people, but. Everybody has like, influence with somebody. [00:13:44] Whitney Bradley: Mm-hmm. And we're all built for community. [00:13:45] Jim Jansen: Right. And even if there's a se, just a short season where you accompany this person, even if it's just simply to say like, Hey, I think you ought to give this a shot. Like that's, you know, there's a, there's a whole spectrum of what accompaniment can look like. There's Yeah. But like everybody can do this. Oh, that's so good. Okay, so number six, do not, well, like, if you wanna break your clear path, just skip the connectors. But actually, no, but you want, you want the anecdote, you wanna develop acs so that, uh, and, and people who can make those connections. [00:14:17] Jodi Phillips: And really quickly what you want is the antidote, not the anecdote. [00:14:20] Jim Jansen: Right? You want the antidote. Did I say, did I say? The antidote. Good. [00:14:25] Jodi Phillips: You said anecdote, but that's okay. [00:14:26] Jim Jansen: Let's go... okay. [00:14:27] Jodi Phillips: I wanna leave that in. [00:14:28] Jim Jansen: An antidote of anecdotes. [00:14:30] Whitney Bradley: Can you tell, we like teasing Jim on this team. [00:14:32] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Good job. Wow. Uh, okay. Number seven. I decided to take this one myself. Um, I love hate this, like, how do you, right. How do you break your clear path? Just have something for everybody. Right? So this is like the kind of very pernicious. I think it's a, I think it's a, a pastoral strategy that has good intentions, but that dramatically backfires. Like, we're gonna have something for everybody, every demographic, every need, every circumstance, every little thing. We're gonna have something for that person. And it, it's a great way to, to, to kill your clear path because Right. A clear path needs to be clear and simple. And I always go back to this, I forget what his name, Dr. Bradshaw, university of Florida. I forget what it's, uh, it's not Terry that's the football player. I think it's Thomas, Dr. Thomas Bradshaw. Anyway, not a quarterback, uh, researcher nerd. Really good research that shows. There is an inverse relationship to the amount of programming you have and how much your church grows. And I'll say it again, 'cause something you were like, what? It's like yeah. The more stuff you have, the less you will grow. And that's true whether you're a big church with a lot of stuff or a small church with a lot of stuff. The more stuff you have, the less you will grow. Because you end up being distracting and like people can't figure out what's most important. And there's too many messages. And you know, honestly, this research isn't like, I, I think the world has only gotten more noisy since this research came out. The last thing our people need from us is to make them busy. [00:16:12] Whitney Bradley: But Jim, what about that person with a unique need who also has a soul and needs to be saved. [00:16:19] Jim Jansen: Ooh, look at you. Thank you. You're like, like going right after like the heart. So a couple of things. If you have a clear path to discipleship, we just talked about this. Having people who are able to accompany people having right connectors who, who, who like kind of their role, their gifting is to help connect people. Then people aren't gonna get lost. And here's the funny thing, even though Alpha is designed to foster conversion, even though small groups, we tend to think of them as a informational, formational thing. Anything that that is evangelistic is also healing. Right? Anything that is healing is also kind of formative. And there's, there's a number of things where if we create a context and we provide an individual here. The Lord provides what they need. And this is, it's true, I think for all of the steps, I think particularly for small groups in the kind of the faith formation sphere, and that's, that's the, the place where I think we end up kind of really gumming things up and offering so much stuff. If you have a simple delivery vehicle, like small groups. The content of what's happening in that group can be tailored for the 5, 6, 7, 8 individuals in that group. And people get what they need because they're part of the community, they've got relationship. And particularly with that delivery vehicle, there's a lot of flexibility about when and how and what's offered. Man, I'm like, thought you guys were gonna like jump in there. [00:17:47] Jodi Phillips: Like I would just, I mean, I would just add also I think often. In a small group, there's actually perhaps something to be said for a multiplicity of people as well. Like if there's, because often what I'll find, you know, rather than everyone going through the same problem, right? So you can do that. You can have a grief group, or you can have a group of people who maybe are all struggling with infertility. But I think there's also a benefit to a multi-generational group or a group where maybe one person, mm-hmm. Just lost a spouse or, you know. Because first of all, when one member of the body suffers, all suffer, and so you see the whole body coming around them. And really what you see in a small group is it's a microcosm. Right? Right. It's a, it's a small version of the parish community and we can come around one another. And, and I've seen this in my own experience, it doesn't mean that we don't sometimes need particular resources and pastoral support. Right. And, and that's a part of the work of the parish, um, and a part of the work of the pastor. Right. But as parish community, we can walk with one another through suffering in a really beautiful way within these small groups. [00:18:56] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I mean, at minimum it means being discerning about what you add. Initiatives, programs that are offered, what gets promoted. Eventually, it probably means for many, many parishes it means pruning and pausing some things, but that doesn't happen right away. You don't like start in like, Hey everybody, we're gonna build a clear path. And just so you know, these 12 ministries are done. You know, like once there is a fruitfulness of the, the main clear path ministries, once there's a little bit of a momentum and a context where like. Yeah, we've, we've got these individuals, uh, not just individuals. We've got these small cell communities that can meet people where they're at, in, in their journey, that they can deploy, you know, the first off love, but the content, the, the resources that are needed. Then, then you're in a space where you're free to pause and prune some things so that there's space for those other contexts to, to welcome new people in. [00:19:53] Andy Dejka: I was, um, just thinking about. Two other things I wanted to emphasize. One is the, just the problem with this kind of mentality of providing something for everyone is that, that we do just have finite resources, right? Mm-hmm. Finite amounts of time, energy, resources. But even if we, you know, had those resources, it's still the most fruitful thing is the accompaniment. That that's the real need. But it also kind of feeds into a consumer mentality. Yeah. Right? Uh, when we're just, when our mentality is we wanna provide something for everyone, we inadvertently create consumers instead of equipping leaders. [00:20:28] Jim Jansen: Well, it reminds me of like, you're like, the best moments of parenting is when you, like you teach your kid how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for the first time. You know, or I mean, again, you know, my lovely wife who's like teaching, teaching like a, you know, like a, a 10-year-old, like how to do their laundry. Like, I mean, it's not always easy, but when they know, like you now have that hour back forever. And there's something, again, not that they're like, well, thanks mom. I feel so empowered. But, but there is something beautiful about the maturity. And even though it's like, okay, cool, I have that time back as a parent, I don't have to meet that, that immediate physical need. There's more than that. You can see the sense of pride and responsibility, even if there's also grumbling mixed in with it in those who now know how to care for themselves. [00:21:17] Whitney Bradley: Mm-hmm. Well, and I just wanna, I'm poking at myself here. So hopefully this is helpful to our listeners, but this place, when we find ourselves, uh, feeling the pressure to meet everyone's needs, I feel like it comes from a place, at least in me, of control. [00:21:39] Jim Jansen: Uhhuh [00:21:40] Whitney Bradley: Of a burdensome responsibility, but also control. I have to do it or I have to do it in a particular way, or it'll only be good if, um. [00:21:51] Jim Jansen: Well, right. It's a little bit of the, it's all on me lie. Mm-hmm. Just in a slightly different form. [00:21:55] Whitney Bradley: And the antidote to that is, um, that wasn't on purpose. [00:22:00] Jim Jansen: Good job. [00:22:01] Whitney Bradley: It's just the word I wanted to use, but the antidote to that I really do think is, is trust. And that means like what I've learned being on a really healthy team is that means. Jodi's gonna do things differently than I thought they should be done. And Andy is too, and. [00:22:16] Jodi Phillips: Just felt really thrown under the bus. [00:22:19] Whitney Bradley: No, because usually it's better. It's different, but it's better. And you see things and shore things up that I don't see. [00:22:27] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:22:27] Whitney Bradley: And it's gotten to the point where it's like when I used to have the need to be like, how are we going to catch all the inevitabilities of what could go wrong in this situation? It's like someone on the team will notice. [00:22:41] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:22:42] Whitney Bradley: And so control, which I think is oftentimes at the heart of some of this desire to meet everybody's needs can, can be, uh, re resolved with trusting the body. [00:22:58] Jim Jansen: And if I can just point out like, you know, none of us are counselors or psychologists, but this is like, this is like deep water. This is why building a clear path to discipleship for those. Andy said it, you know, in our, our last episode, like there's a conversion that happens in us learning to trust the Lord made manifest through this teammate of mine or this volunteer or this coworker or whatever, that there's a, there's an ongoing conversion that. You know, as simple as it may sound, oh, I'm just gonna, you know, meet everybody's needs and when we're gonna have something for everybody. There's, there's something unhelpful, self-reliant at the, at the root of that when, when we really start to examine it. [00:23:41] Whitney Bradley: Yeah, that's a good point. It's not just trust of the body, it's trusting the Lord. The Lord will still work when you stop. [00:23:49] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Okay. Jodi, you're up here. Number eight here. Right? How to break your clear path of Discipleship. Oh, if you wanna break it, just start with a big public launch. [00:24:01] Jodi Phillips: Mm-hmm. [00:24:01] Jim Jansen: Say more. [00:24:03] Jodi Phillips: I mean, I think it's just a really great idea to make promises that we can't keep. Um [00:24:10] Jim Jansen: Oh, I know that wasn't meant to be personal, but for some reason. [00:24:13] Jodi Phillips: It was not personal. [00:24:15] Whitney Bradley: No, it was just my worst nightmare. [00:24:17] Jodi Phillips: I mean, I think that there's this, I. Yeah, it's just a really common practice. We, we want to, to tell everyone we are gonna do this great big thing. And so we get a bunch of people in a room and. [00:24:31] Jim Jansen: We're so excited and we want them to be. [00:24:33] Jodi Phillips: So excited. And we're gonna, we're gonna come up with a mission statement, and then we're gonna put it in a drawer. And, uh, and then we're, we're going to, every once in a while, someone on the team is gonna say, they're gonna pull that out of the drawer and they're gonna say, what are we, what are we doing with this? And, and praise God for that person. And everyone's gonna be like, oh, we're, we're doing it. And, and then maybe eventually it gets painted on a wall, which would be nice. And it's probably on the bulletin every week. But like, and then again in six months, like, so what are we doing with this? And, and it just kind of sits there. [00:25:05] Whitney Bradley: But if you get someone really honest, they'll go, and what does it mean again? [00:25:10] Jodi Phillips: Yeah, yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. And then within a year you have an entirely new staff or nine tenths of them, and they're like, what? Why did you guys make this mission statement? Mm-hmm. Because it. They weren't a part of that process. And so anyway, uh, that happens. And I, I know I'm like poking at so many people listening. They're like, oh yeah, this is too, too close to home for a lot of people. This is my nightmare and why I've lived this so many times. Um, and, and I think that's what happens, right? Is like, we wanna tell everyone what we're doing and they won't know what we're doing. And so we have to tell them what we're doing and how will they buy into, buy into it. What we need to do is just do it. [00:25:46] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, and to be clear, like we're actually big fans of communication, right? [00:25:51] Jodi Phillips: Mm-hmm. [00:25:51] Jim Jansen: Logos, and you know, I talk about in the book like a clear path mantra. [00:25:55] Jodi Phillips: Mm-hmm. [00:25:56] Jim Jansen: And like we love, like planned professional. You know, in church world, professional communication campaigns, but it's a, it's, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when. [00:26:06] Jodi Phillips: When. [00:26:07] Jim Jansen: Sequencing, Jodi, when? [00:26:09] Whitney Bradley: They buy into it by experiencing it. Sorry if I'm. [00:26:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:26:11] Whitney Bradley: Stealing your thunder. But they buy into it by experiencing it and then the when can be. When most people have experienced it, and you go, that thing you've experienced, let's give it a name. [00:26:21] Jodi Phillips: Mm-hmm. Yes. [00:26:22] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:26:22] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. And, and so what I'm not saying is that you do all of the work without vision, right? So I think it's, again, like we still get in the room and we discern, Lord, where are you already at work and what's your vision? And we listen to people and we ask them. So there's still a buy-in process. We wanna hear from people. And, and so that, that might come communicated as something of a vision statement of like, this is the direction we're moving, but, right. [00:26:45] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:26:46] Jodi Phillips: But, but we're not. Saying like, this is what our clear path is, because guess what, we don't have a clear path yet. [00:26:51] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, and thank you. Like having, you know, we talk about in the, you know, discernment phase, you develop a blueprint. Mm-hmm. Okay. We wanna have this ministry and this ministry and this ministry, and this is our, you know, five year dream. This is our one year goal. But that's a plan, that's actually not a clear path. Mm-hmm. It's like saying, it's like, I've got the blueprints. It's like I have a house. It's like, no, I have a. Plan for a house and a piece of paper that tells me what the house will hopefully look like. [00:27:16] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. And right. You think about like how someone. When an organization gets a new brand, right? Mm-hmm. And they, they want the color and they want the logo, and they have those things. The way a professional company will come in and consult with them is they say, tell us your story. [00:27:31] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:27:32] Jodi Phillips: Tell us what's happened. How can we help you tell your story? Right? So all of this comes off of a lived reality and icon is meant to somehow communicate what's already. Happening. Right? So we can't actually have a big communication strategy based off of something that's not already a reality. [00:27:50] Jim Jansen: You know, just all of this is like evangelization work. Anybody who's done anything in evangelization knows that testimonies, uh, giving your, your witness. That's like one of the most powerful, timeless tools for evangelization. And that's essentially this, that your, your communication is like, yeah, okay, here's, you know, here's each step and here's the ministries and there's, you know, cool logos and color themes. But at the heart of communication is a witness. God changed my life in this ministry context. God changed my life in this ministry context. And it's the sharing of those stories that really. That, that's what really is the, is the heart of the communication. Not that we don't love matching color schemes and cool logos. [00:28:34] Jodi Phillips: And really, uh, the, the purpose of communicating your clear path is for, I would say two audiences. [00:28:41] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:28:41] Jodi Phillips: One is so people know where to go next when they themselves are seeking where to go next, man. I've got a lot of questions about who God is, and I wanna know where I'm supposed to go to find the answers to these questions. [00:28:54] Jim Jansen: Where could I go to get those answered? [00:28:56] Jodi Phillips: Where could I go? [00:28:56] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:28:57] Jodi Phillips: Or two for the people who are walking with people [00:29:00] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. [00:29:00] Jodi Phillips: In those spaces. And they wanna know where to take someone next. [00:29:03] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Is your friend ready for... [00:29:05] Jodi Phillips: for this? And so we are communicating to those two audiences. Right. It and that's the purpose. So we also wanna have those audiences in mind as we're communicating that. [00:29:14] Jim Jansen: That's, yeah. That's so good. Jodi. Oh, I love it. Okay, so how to, how to break your clear path. Number eight, start with a big public launch. Now actually get some stories, uh, to tell, develop a communications campaign that's, that's talking about what already is. So good. Okay, number nine, how to break your clear path. We're gonna have Jodi and, and Andy kind of tag team this one together. How to, how to break your clear path of discipleship. Just exempt current members. [00:29:43] Andy Dejka: Yeah. Right. We're starting small, right? Mm-hmm. We've talked about that. We're starting small. We're starting with, um, some personal limitations, but we're aiming for culture change, right? We want the whole parish culture to be involved with this clear, clear path. It's really important because the, like we mentioned in, in part one, people may not have experienced conversion. [00:30:03] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:30:03] Andy Dejka: Um, so that's part of it is offering opportunities for conversion to our, our current members. But then it's also about helping them to buy into what they're seeing and experiencing and from their own conversion, being able to invite people from the outside into the clear path. So they're gonna be, um, the biggest promoters of the clear path. Mm-hmm. People that are already engaged and they're going to serve as connectors. And it kind of ties in a lot of the things that we've been already talking about as we build up a culture, um, in the parish. So all the leaders really need to have, um, a sense of why we're embarking on this journey. Why are we moving towards a clear path? Why are we investing some of our best time resources and energy in specific ministries and in this accompaniment process? And then how can they particularly participate in this? How can they invite people from ministries that they're a part of? And then they'll have a good understanding of kinda the ins and outs of the clear path and be able to serve as, you know, effective connectors and inviters. Right? I mean, it's like an experiential communications campaign. Like, Hey, come like, I'm not just gonna tell you this is the best CROs ever. Like, come taste it. Like you gotta, you gotta like, come taste this thing and then you're totally gonna like sell it. Jodi, what else? [00:31:19] Jodi Phillips: Yeah, I think there's also something really important about communicating with your current members throughout. So we've mentioned this need for this ongoing conversion to mission, and also we've talked about the slow work of God and. In me, I can talk about like, okay, this is what it looked like when I was 19 years old to, to go on mission as an evangelical, and then what that looked like as a Catholic. So I've been living this life for 20 years, right. So I, I've got 20 years of experience that led me to this moment. And then I go to someone who has been living parish life a different way for 20 years, and I expect them to want to live the way that I've been living for the last 20 years. Mm-hmm. And it turns out okay. That's a, that's a massive shift, right? [00:32:06] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:32:06] Jodi Phillips: Like I've, I've got just 20 years of different life experience, and so what we're asking people to do is enormous. [00:32:15] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:32:15] Jodi Phillips: Right? So managing the change in culture is, uh, it's just a, is a, a giant project. And I think this is often, like, I think this is why so many of our ministries. Break. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think this is why, why our clear pass break is because we don't actually walk, people walk with people through the transition. Through any big change. Well, right, right. We don't help them to go through that conversion. We just say like, Hey, this is the way things are now. Get on board. [00:32:42] Jim Jansen: Right. And like, and it's like telling people not just what we're gonna do or how we're gonna do it, but here's why we're gonna do it. Mm-hmm. You know, I spend a lot of time with this in the book that like, why brings people together? Like listen, we want a parish where our children and grandchildren love to come. Okay. Who's gonna argue with that? It's like nobody. Everybody's like, yeah, we're okay. We're in like that. Why makes sense to us? And then maybe there's gonna be a little bit more debate about the how we do it, you know? Well, we're gonna build a clear path to discipleship. And some of the more particulars, the detail, the more particular you get, the more. Opinions and differing perspectives. That's fine. That's human. That's why you have to have such a clear, compelling why. [00:33:28] Jodi Phillips: Mm-hmm. [00:33:28] Jim Jansen: So that people can rally around and have that point of unity. It's like, well, okay, I'm not totally sure on this clear path thing, but I definitely want to perish. That's gonna like, you know, where, where my kids and grandkids love to come. [00:33:38] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. And and just to that point, that means you also have to listen to them. 'cause you have to hear what their why is. Right. And you have to find the points of where things kind of convert on the same point. Right? Right. [00:33:47] Jim Jansen: But where the desires all [00:33:48] Jodi Phillips: intersect converge. See, we all have misspoken words today. Con conversion, that's the word I was looking for. But like, oh, that thing you're saying is the same desire as mine. This is where we are together. And so our visions suddenly align. [00:34:02] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:34:02] Jodi Phillips: Which means our desires are aligned, and now we can get on the same page. So I have to listen to you right as, as our, our new archbishop will say, [00:34:09] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. [00:34:09] Jodi Phillips: I have to buy into your world before I can ask you to buy into mine. Yeah. So this is a part of that process, and if you haven't caught on yet, this is slow and it requires a lot of personal accompaniments. [00:34:21] Jim Jansen: Well, and there's a, there's a trust in this too that I trust that the Holy Spirit who has given me a vision that is given this team of vision, that as we've prayed about, okay, we're supposed to build a clear path and we're supposed to move this way. But that same spirit is also in the work of those who weren't part of the team who, who didn't do the mapping exercise. They didn't do the discernment, and yet, even though they might use different language. There is a desire that is common. We wanna see our parish live again. We wanna see more young people around here there, right? There's a desire that's common, and when we listen with patience and with trust, we can start to hear what might sound initially like a difference or a disagreement actually has a common desire. [00:35:05] Andy Dejka: Mm-hmm. I think two. Sometimes we have to make a bold ask of people, right? Yeah. To, to participate in this. We're gonna be trying to invite leaders who already have a full ministry schedule. Right. If they're already really involved in, in their parish. And so sometimes we might need to ask them to pause for a season mm-hmm. So that they can experience part of the clear path. And that might be hard to do 'cause we don't want to hear a no or get, take people away from what they're already doing. But if, if it's really that important, right? If our why is really important, right? Yeah. And we really believe that there's a gift within this process for everyone in our parish to experience. Then it's worth making that bold ask. [00:35:43] Jim Jansen: Well, and sometimes the like, it feels bold because we intuitively know people's identity is really wrapped up in this thing, this, this ministry, this craft fair, this whatever it is. But again, like I said, we weren't gonna give too many shout outs, but this is a positive one. This is something Father John Ricardo did with his parish in, in Detroit that literally they stopped everything except for Alpha, and I think, I mean mass, of course, but like Alpha, mass, OCIA. There were like three or four things that they kept doing. Like the essentials and then everything else was paused for a year so that they could run Alpha several times. And many of the current members were able to actually experience it. They didn't start that way. That wasn't the first thing they did. They were, you know, alpha had a lot of momentum, but eventually they came to a place where like, Hey, we're gonna make space for you to experience this because we're gonna pause everything else. Okay, so good. This is number okay. Number 10 here. So we're gonna move on from number nine. Uh, if you wanna break your clear path just to exempt your current members now, we're gonna go to number 10 here. If you wanna, if you wanna break your k, your clear path to discipleship, build it for your current parishioners. And in some ways, this is the most, this is the most like, I think, uh, advanced, where it's like, yeah, you've already got your clear path up and up and running. This is a, this is a good way to break it if you just have your current membership in mind. Whitney, break this out for us. What does this mean? [00:37:14] Whitney Bradley: Yeah, if you'd really like a stagnant parish with a lot of consumer Catholics only meet their needs. [00:37:23] Jim Jansen: Ooh, ooh, ooh. Sign us up. [00:37:26] Whitney Bradley: Yay. Um, I mean, I think it's kind of what comes from, like in the last one you said. Sometimes people's desires for mission start with, I just want our parish to be alive again. And that's a great desire. [00:37:41] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:37:42] Whitney Bradley: But if you can't break their imagination out to, that means we need new members who aren't currently in the pews. [00:37:50] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:37:50] Whitney Bradley: And that means we need to get to know our neighborhood and love our neighborhood and meet the needs of the parishioners who aren't here yet. Then you start to build. A culture. Culture that's only for the already faithful. [00:38:03] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Which is not enough, right? [00:38:07] Whitney Bradley: Not, no. [00:38:08] Jim Jansen: I mean, it, it, it's almost like, you know, it's like that old kind of like, what is it? It's like that catechist kind of turn of a phrase. It's like, well, you know, if you aim for purgatory and you miss, you might not end up. So it's like, so if you aim for heaven, you miss, or maybe if you miss, you at least had to purgatory. But like for like parish renewal. Like you have to aim for mission. You have to aim for every single soul in the parish boundary. And if you fall short of that, you might just have a rocking parish that's really, you know, that, that, that is full of life and making lots of disciples. And gosh, you may not get every single soul in the parish boundary, but you're still gonna have an awesome parish. But if you only aim for a good parish. You may not get there. [00:38:52] Whitney Bradley: I feel like we get this question often, which is like, but how? But how do you change the culture of a parish? [00:38:58] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:38:59] Whitney Bradley: And all of the things we've said so far are really good about communication and helping people have a deeper conversion and bringing them along by forming them and mission wise and accompanying them. But honestly, just bring a whole lot of new people into your parish and you're gonna change that culture real quick. [00:39:19] Jim Jansen: That chances the culture. [00:39:20] Jodi Phillips: Amen. [00:39:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, that's so good. There's also something I want to, Whitney. I wanna give you a chance to talk about kind of the angle here. Like, you know, when you. When you map out, or you just say you develop a blueprint, like, okay, this is how we're gonna build our clear path to discipleship. You don't write that in stone. The, the, the ministries that you choose, let's say for your conversion moment or for, you know, the content of your faith formation, evangelization formation, any of the steps, the ministries that you're using as tools to, to form people, uh, in that stage of the journey. Those aren't setin set in stone. They can grow and evolve. Maybe talk a little bit more, uh, about that. [00:40:00] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. So when we say. That if you build the clear path for your current parishioners, you're gonna break it. We don't mean leave your current parishioners behind and don't pay attention to them at all. It's still very important to see, again, where the Holy Spirit is moving, what efforts he is blessing, and to notice what are the needs and desires of your missionary parishioners. Mm-hmm. Because they're gonna teach you. Where to grow, grow next. And by meeting the needs of those missionary parishioners, you're gonna build your, your clear path, and it's gonna happen in a way that helps those people thrive and helps them bring in new people. [00:40:44] Jim Jansen: This reminds me a little bit of like the wisdom we shared. Some other time ago and some other conversation we're talking about, particularly like for relational outreach, you know that sometimes in a relational outreach, which is usually the last step that people build on their clear path because you can't, you, you can't really discern. Like what type of relational outreach you're going to have until, you know, two things. One, who really is our mission field? What are, what are their hopes and their dreams and their desires and their, their habits, their fun, all, all of the things they do for fun. All of those things. And. Like, what are the missionary disciples we have telling us they need? You know, when they start saying things like, man, it would be great if we could just have a thing like a meal where I could just invite my friends to, and then they're like, oh, okay. But they will tell you. 'cause as they enter into the lives of their neighbors and their coworkers and fallen away family members, et cetera, et cetera, they'll begin to feel. The communal need and that ends up becoming right. Your, your moment for relational outreach or even, even more. I mean, it doesn't have to be just at the start of the faith journey. It can be way later. It's like, you know, we've been accompanying these people as they're trying to take on step into their personal mission, and it seems like what they need is. It's like, great now. Now we know. And that, you know, let's say if we started with a one particular charism assessment and we move to another one, that's great. That's a very healthy thing. That means you're, you're actually listening and you're growing. [00:42:16] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. And if you do it that way, then you are building the clear path for your future parishioners, but also for your current ones. [00:42:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:42:26] Whitney Bradley: You're doing it for both. [00:42:27] Jim Jansen: Amen. Okay. Any last thoughts on this? This has been, I mean, our time's really kind of flown on here. This has been a fun conversation just in general, right? For like kind of last little words of wisdom and encouragement for those. We're trying to build a clear path to discipleship, would really prefer not to stumble into, uh, one of these ways of breaking a, a clear path. Any final, final thoughts, guys? [00:42:51] Andy Dejka: I think just for me, kind of summing it up with, um, don't do it alone. Invite in the Holy Spirit and just trust in the slow work of God. Right? [00:43:02] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:43:02] Andy Dejka: The slow working out of his leading and guiding you. Yeah. It'd be one step at a time, one step at a time. [00:43:08] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. For me, it's the, it's the simplicity thing. Like, don't, you know, you don't have to start there. You don't have to kill everything. But simplicity is so powerful. All right. Thanks everybody. All right. If you know somebody who needs to hear this, uh, you just wait till you're, uh, safe hands, right where you can use your, use your hand, I know. Tie up the dog or whatever. You can use your hands and you can, you can send this out to a friend. [00:43:33] Whitney Bradley: We weren't sure where you were going with that, jim. [00:43:36] Jodi Phillips: Safe hands! [00:43:37] Jim Jansen: A safe hand. No, A safe place where you're not driving. Don't share this out with a friend while you're driving down the interstate. Wait till you are stopped or until you get the dog tied up, and then you can safely share this out with a friend. All right. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.