[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So today I sit down with Hannah Kiessling. Hannah and I have a great conversation. We talk about how you make the transition from one type of ministry, in Hannah's case, youth ministry, to another, evangelization coordinator, , with adults. Talk about some of the lessons she learned, the grief and the transition.

We talk about a clear path to discipleship and how it can be a context for accompaniment to really help people grow and mature. We talk about the warning signs of when you know that you've let your ministry and your family life get out of order and, and how you can let the Lord bring you back.

It's a really good conversation, whether you're a volunteer, whether you're in ministry for many, many years, or you're just getting started full-time, part-time staff, you're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen.

All right, Hannah Keisling, welcome to the EquipCast.

How you doing today, Hannah?

[00:01:29] Hannah Keisling: Yeah, doing well. I'm doing well. We're enjoying the summer and just a quiet time in ministry and plenty of family time. It's been good.

[00:01:36] Jim Jansen: Good. Good. Okay. So Hannah, we-- how long have we known each other? I mean, certainly probably been about nine years. Did we know each other before I came to work back in Omaha?

[00:01:48] Hannah Keisling: don't think I met... I, I probably had heard of you, but I don't think we actually met before that. But yeah, it may be like nine years because I know I met you before I moved over. I think I met you before I moved over to St. Vincent, so

[00:02:00] Jim Jansen: Yes. But I just like little, little heart drop here like, "Oh, I had heard of you."

[00:02:04] Hannah Keisling: No, not like that. Yeah, no.

[00:02:07] Jim Jansen: No, you didn't say, you didn't say it that. way, but that's the way I heard it. I had... Oh gosh, I had a funny story, like early days as a missionary and someone from Omaha came and visited. I'll just, I'll just name drop here. Elizabeth Bover Gideon. And I remember she came to visit December training, and it was the very first time that like someone from like kinda Omaha where I grew up had like, come and connected anyway.

And, and she's like, "Oh." You know, like introducing myself. And she's like, "Oh, I knew you in high school." And man, to see like the facial expression, I just immediately started to apologize. It was... Anyway, it was kinda funny. I know that's not what you meant, but for some reason I was drawn back there.

[00:02:48] Hannah Keisling: It, it's, it's, good if we can be known beyond our high school self. I always think.

[00:02:51] Jim Jansen: Oh gosh, gosh. Yeah. If, and, and that's, that's the grace I want for myself and for everybody else. Like, okay, th- like, yeah, they've... I'm not the same person I was then, and they are not either.

Okay. Speaking of who people are, who, who are you? Hannah, tell us a little bit about your story.

[00:03:08] Hannah Keisling: Yeah, so, right now currently I work as an evangelization coordinator at St. Vincent de Paul. And I have worked in ministry since I graduated college but I started off in youth ministry. And I did that for many years up until about two years ago actually. But growing up, I grew up actually in Minnesota, so I'm not a native of Omaha where I work now. But grew up in Minnesota and...

[00:03:32] Jim Jansen: Your not? You fake it very well.

[00:03:34] Hannah Keisling: Oh, good. Well, I have been here for a long time now, so it's starting to feel a, a lot more like home. But Minnesota has my heart. I still have my Minnesota phone number. I'll never give that up.

But yeah. No, grew up there in a, a wonderful Catholic parish and my parents, you know, raised me Catholic and definitely, you know, loved my faith and just grew in that way. So, but now I I'm married. I've been married for 17 years to my husband, Sean, and we have four kids who are 8, 10, 13, and 15. So they are so much fun, and they keep us insanely busy in what, what should be our downtime from work, but it's not downtime. It's like the second day that we pack in after our workday. But it's, it's, it's so fun, so, we wouldn't give it up obviously. And so we're both, we're working full...

[00:04:27] Jim Jansen: I love, the way you said that though. Like a second day, like your second work. Like I used to say that when I'd be, you know, leaving the, the, the Newton Center as a, as a missionary. It's like, "All right, see you later everybody. I'm going to work." Because I started, you know, I was not-- I did not go home and put my feet up when I had young kids at home.

[00:04:44] Hannah Keisling: Yeah, not at all. There, there's minimal putting your feet up time most days. So, so that's what we're doing. I mean, we both work full time, and I work in full-time ministry now, and I've gone back and forth between working full time, part time. But I start... My ministry life I guess started while I was in college. I worked at a summer youth camp up in Northern Minnesota. It was called Catholic Youth Camp, and randomly, like my friends in college were applying for that camp and they're like, "Do you want to?" And I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing this summer, so sure." And I ended up there and really just loved, I loved working with the kids.

And you know, we would have guest priests come. I mean, Father Mike Schmitz, before he was super well-known, he would come say Mass for the kids. And other...

[00:05:30] Jim Jansen: Tha-- Oh, that's awesome.

[00:05:31] Hannah Keisling: I mean, it was like the best summer. I had no idea how impactful that summer would be to me. It was the first time I ever played guitar and sang for a mass was at that camp, because nobody else wanted to do it.

There was like me and this other guy, and he's like, "You can do it." And I was like, "I don't think I can, but, you know, why not give it a try?" So, so that started my ministry journey. I went back to college and changed my major to, uh... Uh, my college had a theology degree that had a specific emphasis in pastoral and youth ministry, so I immediately changed to that. And yeah, I haven't really looked back, so here I am.

No I went to St. Mary's University. It's up in Winona, Minnesota.

[00:06:14] Jim Jansen: Okay. Yeah. That's actually a really good... 'cause most of your, most of your time in ministry up until recently has been in youth ministry. , You just transitioned about two years ago. Talk a little bit about that transition? Youth ministry to you know, the emphasis for being an evangelization coordinator is typically adult evangelization. Tell us about that transition.

[00:06:39] Hannah Keisling: Yeah, I mean, youth ministry's been what I've done for so long. I wanna say like 15 years. And I... Like, part of me was, like, in mourning for a little bit because I love the youth, and I remember hearing that call during that summer camp of, like, just feeling so drawn to the young people.

And that has not gone away, I would say, in any way. And I still obviously am very much a part of my- my kids' lives and their... You know, try to get to know their friends and all that. But the transition was interesting because I was doing essentially the same type of work, but now it just expanded and became like, okay, now I'm not just looking at this small segment, this group of the parish, but I'm looking at everyone.

so the strategies and goals weren't necessarily different, but it was a much more overwhelming responsibility, I guess, to look at. And at first I was like, "I- I don't know how this is gonna go," but I know I like the... I- I like the ministry and, yeah, it- it's just been an interesting transition.

You know, it's been two years now, so, like, that first year was just a lot of, like, kind of just reflecting and- and noticing the differences while I'm taking in the fire hose of everything. I actually transitioned into this new role at the same parish I've been working at. I'd been the youth minister here for six years.

And I've worked at a- a handful of parishes, but here specifically for six years. So I kind of, like, had an idea. Like, I understood the culture of the parish. I had a lot of connections, like I knew a lot of people, but there was still tons of people I didn't know or hadn't met. Just, we... You know, even though you're doing a lot of ministry, you just don't cross paths with everyone, and I... you know, there's still a million people I don't know here, but.

[00:08:29] Jim Jansen: Well, and it's a good size par-- we're talking large suburban parish. Do you know off the top of your head how big St. Vincent's is?

[00:08:34] Hannah Keisling: Yeah, I wanna say we're, like, 3,200 families now, because we keep- we've been growing.

And so it's slightly bigger than when I even started here. But yeah, so the... It was just, it's overwhelming when at first you're like, "H- how am I supposed to, like, meet everybody?" And then the truth is, like, I just, I can't.

I won't know everybody which is okay, because uh, the role I'm in doesn't mean I can obviously walk with every individual. But I, you know, trying to learn how to receive everyone's needs in certain ways and, and what to do with that has been interesting. Some of the differences I noticed is working with youth something I loved was it was always fresh.

It was exciting and mo- the movement happened so quickly, and, like, the sense of excitement and urgency with the teens, like, they were so unafraid. It's like they'd never gone through any disappointment yet, so they're like, "Why not share this exciting faith that I just experienced last week with everyone that I know?"

And I, I loved that, because I, I think we all probably need some of that as well. And then the other thing, you- it just, like, when you work with youth, it just forces you to be authentic and honest, and because they can smell any sort of selfish, prideful motivation from miles away, and they will, they will not come alongside of that.

They're like, "We don't have time for that. We just wanna be real." And so it just forced me to be very authentic, and so I, I really did get used to that. And then it's not that that stuff's not present now, but it is just different. It's different. I, I am working with people who have been through stuff, like, and have so much more life experience, both good and bad.

And, and so there's just, everyone's kind of at a different spot spiritually, emotionally, and just in their lives. And, and so just, you know, there, there was always an occasional teen who'd been through something, you know, but most of them really, they, they'd never been disillusioned to anything yet.

And so, like, it's just a different totally different landscape I guess in front of me. Like, a much wider landscape. So that's been really different and challenging in a good way.

[00:10:46] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I can relate to that. Again, I, I wasn't working with youth or kinda like the junior high, high school, but I-- but working with college students and then transitioning to adults, it's like, oh, wow, you feel there's a, there's a freshness that young people have. There's a, a, a malleability.

They often, just because of their state in life, have the freedom to make radical choices for the Lord, right? To go to seminary, to pursue religious life, to serve, you know, start witnessing to their friends, whatever, 'cause they, they have, oftentimes college students at least they have more discretionary time than they know.

I always used to laugh at them. They're like: Oh my gosh, I'm so busy. It's like: Okay, you, I'm gonna... You write that down. I'm gonna send that to you in, like, five years.

[00:11:32] Hannah Keisling: Yeah, they don't, they don't know busy yet.

[00:11:34] Jim Jansen: Hannah, this is not an easy transition. When did you start to realize that you were being called to make this change?

[00:11:43] Hannah Keisling: You know, it was probably about three years ago I just- it wasn't that I was unhappy in my work. I mean, I loved the youth, but I just- I, I felt really attracted to the work that our adult formation coordinator was doing, Stan. He's retired now, and I just... I mentioned something to m- my husband one day, Sean, and I was like, "You know, down the road, like, I think maybe that's something I would move into."

Like, 'cause I- we always talked, you know? It's like, we're not- I'm not stuck in youth ministry. I could transition and do other things, but, like, what is that? And I had been praying. Like, God, what... if you want me to move from this someday, like, what would that be? Like, how- should I start preparing for something different or?

, And I like answers quickly, and He, He didn't give me the answer quickly then, and so I was just kind of waiting because I knew I wouldn't do what I was doing forever. But then a couple years ago, Stan announced that he was retiring, and I just was like, "This is it. This is the time. I, I'm- I should..."

'Cause I, I couldn't see myself moving to another parish locally. It just- I felt like, I felt, like, rooted here that this was the place I'd wanna work. I didn't wanna go somewhere else and do ministry at another parish at the time. It would need to be here, so. But obviously Stan was still doing the job, and I wasn't gonna kick him out 'cause I love Stan.

[00:12:59] Jim Jansen: Right. Yes. I love stan too.

[00:13:01] Hannah Keisling: miss, I miss Stan. Yes, I miss having him in the office next to me, but but when he announced his retirement, I was like, "Okay, this, this is it." And it, it was still tough because my husband and I did a lot of youth ministry together, and so it, it was like, okay, I have to be really realistic here.

Like, this is not gonna look the same, i'm gonna have to allow space for someone new to come in, and that- that may not look... I m- I don't get to control that. I don't, I don't get to make it look a certain way, or I might n- I won't have the time or capacity to do both. And like, oh, I'll just volunteer and do youth ministry forever alongside this, and I'm like, I just have to be realistic and know that that may not happen that way.

And so yeah, it was a, it was a, an interesting transition as I, I was excited about the change, but also kind of nervous about how different it would look.

[00:13:49] Jim Jansen: What helped you make the decision? Was it just as simple as like, "Okay, Stan's, Stan's position is open. Now is the time"? Or "Okay un- uncertainty, but I'm supposed to do this"?

[00:14:02] Hannah Keisling: Yeah, I, I, I spend a good amount of time in the adoration chapel because I... Like, I wanted to make the change, but I really wanted to make sure that this is what God wanted and it wasn't me just getting tired of something and moving to something else. And I just kept getting that, and I kept asking the Lord, like, "Are, are you sure?"

Like, " I keep feeling drawn to this, and I wanna make sure it's you, but I'm nervous and I'm gonna have to kind of, like, break up with - the way some things were going and, like, just a different rhythm of life is gonna have to be born from this, and that sounds so hard, "

and I was just speaking these things, and the main thing I got from the Lord is he just kept

saying, like, just trust me And, just do it." and and He didn't say a whole lot more than that, but he kept saying that.

[00:14:46] Jim Jansen: Oh, that sounds just like Him.

[00:14:48] Hannah Keisling: Yeah. Right? I, I kept getting that over and over. I'm like, I'm like, "Can you repeat that again?"

[00:14:54] Jim Jansen: Hannah, it's like you're reading my journal here 'cause, you know, I mean, and I think the listeners know, I just made a big change in my life transitioning from working from the archdiocese to now full-time as an independent coach and consultant. And I had a very similar thing.

It's like, but my heart was being drawn, and in, in hindsight, I can see the Lord was preparing me for this. But my discernment was really, it's like, "Lord, I, I want this to be your timing, your call. I don't want it to be from me." And the Lord was, very clear about the timing. It really was a gift.

But in, in most of the daily conversations, What I was getting from the Lord was like, "I'm here. I'm at work. Just trust me. I'll show you." I was like, "Oh, you always say that." But He does. And when the time was right, He made it clear. , Okay. Hannah, I wanna maybe pivot a little bit here.

You mentioned, , early on, like kinda when you were working with this youth camp, that was the first time you got to play music for like a ministry setting, I know you have the charism music. I've seen it, personally experienced it as you've led prayer and, and worship .

I've seen the Lord work through your gift of music. Were you afraid that you would lose the chance to exercise this gift?

[00:16:14] Hannah Keisling: I'm- that's a good question. Honestly, no. I you know, my music had been not 100% attached to my work in ministry, and I had been noticing that a lot of times it was adults who were connecting the most deeply to the worship music that I was leading, and that- I think that was actually part of the draw, too, to move into adult ministry thinking, "Wow, I could really use this charism more deeply in some ways."

So I, I wasn't worried about it because I still, I still have opportunities to do music with youth as well. My music ministry was more than my work, you know? I had- I've been doing it at a lot of places, other parishes and things. So if anything, I feel like it's, it's probably opened up more opportunities, more connections more places where I get invited into.

[00:17:08] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. have you have you seen a change in how that gift has grown and developed over the years?

[00:17:15] Hannah Keisling : Oh, absolutely. I mean, the maturity I have as a worship leader, it, I mean, it's still... I would say it's still growing. As I'm learning more who I am, I can pray more intentionally while leading worship and you know, it's... I've had a lot of experiences where I was like, "Man, I just did an awesome job with that music," and then other experiences where I'm like, "Wow, I feel like I really flopped."

But I've had people come up to me after times where I'm like, "I didn't think I did anything good," and they were like, "I encountered Jesus." Like, "Thank you." And I'm like, "Well, I definitely know it wasn't me." Maybe I participated, and it, it's, it goes beyond the skills that are involved. And so it's definitely matured over the years.

I think music has been an underlying calling for me my entire life. Just as a young person being in choir and learning how to sing and learning how to play the guitar in college and just feeling like music always would be a part of my life. I didn't know how. It didn't have to be my job, but it was almost better because it could transcend that.

So yeah.

[00:18:23] Jim Jansen: Man, that's beautiful. I love... just the, the noticing the difference when it's like, it's me," and it's like, okay, that's, you know, it's my ability. I've learned how to play. And then really seeing the Lord even more dramatically at times you're like, "I don't think I did a great job there." And how beautiful it is. You're like, "Wow, I see the Lord. I know it's the Lord 'cause I'm pretty sure it wasn't me me this time."

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Okay. Hannah, I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about just your work and this, this new role building a clear path to discipleship. Vincent de Paul is a large suburban parish. Talk about some of the joys and challenges of trying to build a clear path in such a large parish.

[00:19:38] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, I mean, so I stepped into this role two years ago, so the, the nice thing is, like, things have been moving long before I was any part of it. St. Vincent de Paul, like the pastoral council, like they had really di- dived into divine renovation kind of right before I even started here, and so a lot of things were already in motion, and it was kind of like just jumping on the wave a little bit, so I feel a little guilty about that.

I think so much good was already primed and going and moving. And with challenges too, because there are like some... There's so many brilliant people here who care so much about bringing people to the Lord through the parish, and so you get a lot of ideas, and I would say actually pretty much all of them are great ideas.

It's just more like how do you focus in and like make something happen is, is always the fun challenge. But they had already established the Alpha program here, and said this is gonna be a big onboarding effort at our parish, and so that has been going strong for years. And so just taking that on, it's a little scary, 'cause I'm like, "Well, now I gotta shepherd this program a little bit and make sure it doesn't die because of me," but--

[00:20:49] Jim Jansen: Right. Be easier if it wasn't working. It's like, oh gosh, everybody knows It was working so--

[00:20:54] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, right? It was fine until Hannah came along. No. But no, like, so it's, like, a little bit of pressure, but at the same time, like, knowing it's really the Holy Spirit who's the agent of, of movement in all of this. So Alpha or not Alpha or whatever programs, like, really it's, it's the movement of the Spirit that we are just trying to tap into.

And so that's why it's kind of neat because it can look s- completely different from parish to parish and person to person and yet it's all ordered, and it all works together. So you know, we'd already started a lot of, of things that were like, we know we have already had these dreams, and we started with Alpha.

And then, over the years there'd been, like, staffing changes and just transitions in leadership, and so we didn't get a whole lot further than, like, let's establish Alpha, and then we have some really good parish studies and, and things like that for formation. And those are all really good. So it's been kind of a lot about just taking everyone back to that imagination of, like, how do we fill this in, and how should we fill it in, and maybe not everything needs to get crammed into this even if there are many good ideas.

And you know, some things could be big and a big emphasis, and other things can remain small and still be very cri- critical and important. So I feel like my role has a lot of been empowering pos- parishioners and helping to form them to learn how to discern for themselves and know obviously clearly what I'm trying to work towards but at the same time have the humility to see, okay, I see the Lord is probably pointing me a different direction, and this person, I- it seems like they know what they're doing here.

So and just really it's, it's empowering those all the people to live out their call to go and make disciples in whatever way, shape, or form that is. And not everyone is called to do that by being a part of a large parish ministry. Some people are much more effective doing it outside of that.

[00:22:52] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I love what you said earlier. You said like, just because something is a good idea , and necessary , and like crucial doesn't mean that it has to become big, right? That it needs to become this big parish thing. It may be it's just a personal apostolate. How-- Like when did you, when did you realize that?

And maybe you've always known that, but like that, that feels like it's a, it's a trap that a lot of people s- fall into. It's like, well, if it's good and it matters, then it has to be big, it has to be for everybody, has to be parish-wide, parish-sponsored. How did you sort that?

[00:23:32] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, I mean, a couple of things. I mean, I kept noticing people's ideas. They kind of... Not, not in anything bad, but they would come in and, and really everyone wanted their thing to be the big thing. And I don't fault them for that, 'cause I, I'm like that too. I want my thing to be the big thing.

It's like, well, okay. So I was just noticing this trend of, like, when people had a good idea, they assumed it would, it would go this way, and if it didn't, it often led to disappointment for them and frustration, and I, I f- I- it really convicted me. I felt terrible 'cause I'm like, "Am I doing something wrong here?"

I, I wanted to respond to people in a, in a good way, and so I, I found that just being more clear with them about discerning is this, if this is gonna be a parish-wide ministry, like, that's something that we're gonna have to take into a period of discernment with the pastor and with others, and that's totally legit and could be a really true, like, that that's what we're gonna do.

But it doesn't have to go that way, and just showing them maybe the other option, which is, yeah, more of a personal apostolate or whether it was very organized or just more random. And then I also... I mean, I, I, maybe I heard about it from you in one of your podcasts, but I s- I did start reading more about apostolates and, like, the heart of what that means and our personal call to evangelize, and just understanding that and it really, honestly, it convicted me personally as well and realizing, okay, like, I'm understanding this in context of my music versus my, my work in the church and, like, how they're different but both important. And so I was able to learn a lot just with my own self-reflection, too.

[00:25:17] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, that's a great example, right? You have a ministry, literally a delegated, in, in your case, a paid, but a clear extension of the ministry of the pastor in your role at the parish. And then you've got this personal apostolate where , you're sharing your charism of music. So that's a great, like, very tangible way for you to take your own experience and b- th- then be able to help other people sort out, "Okay, is this a, a ministry?

Is this a parish-wide ministry, or is this an apostolate and a real valuable essential calling for me, but not something that's supposed to get, huge.

[00:25:53] Hannah Keisling : Mhm. Yeah.

[00:25:54] Jim Jansen: I mean, it's, it's-- Gosh, I just feel like you're really speaking prophetically here because so often I think, yeah, people come with an unexamined, un-undiscerned assumption that something has to get big, and sometimes it's the getting big that kills it or kills us, right?

That, you know, inside we're like, "Oh my gosh," like, and, and this thing that used to be a, a joyful, loving service becomes bigger than it was supposed to be and bigger than we can handle.

[00:26:23] Hannah Keisling : And if that's not h- what it was actually meant to be, yeah, it, it really takes away the autonomy of that individual to go and, and follow that call. And I don't think that as a parish staff member, I don't- I'm not doing them justice at all,

But I also don't know the discernment of their heart, and, I'm trying not to make quick judgments and say like, "Well, I don't like that idea, so it's definitely not." You know? Like I'm trying to slow my own judgment down just because I've done ministry a long time, so I get this idea that I know a lot more than somebody, you know? And, and I'm like, "No, th- that, that doesn't mean I know the discernment of their heart and what God is calling them to uniquely." And so I slow down. I try to.

[00:27:04] Jim Jansen: Ho-how do you slow yourself down?

[00:27:05] Hannah Keisling : Well, I have to stop talking. I think that's the number one thing. And--

[00:27:10] Jim Jansen: Oh, stop it. You're reading my journal again!

[00:27:12] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, no, I have, I literally have to stop talking. And, you know, years ago when I'd gone through, like the first time I went through like the Alpha training program, and they train you to like not give the answers, I was like scandalized. I was like, "What?" Like, how can you not just... if you know it, you have to share--

[00:27:27] Jim Jansen: But I know, them. I know the answers.

[00:27:30] Hannah Keisling : I know, I know, it, but, but taking a little bit of that concept of like just stop and listen, and listen to the Holy Spirit speaking through this person to try to help discern what is it, what's underlying in this. And I, I really don't do a perfect job of this, so hopefully nobody is getting the impression that I'm so good at this. Like it's, it is work. And I get a lot of promptings of like, "hey," like, "knock it off" from the Holy Spirit. So--

[00:27:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah, but just knowing that, that like those of us who, who again, who are sharing in the kind of the pastoring role-- that, that like, hey, your job isn't necessarily to know all the answers. Your job is to help other people discover the answers, at least in part. Again, it's not that we have no answers and there, there's a time and a place for that.

But just a realization, oh, maybe my job is to help them figure out the answers. I mean, that's game-changing. It was, it was for me too. As, you know, I'd been, been a missionary and, for many years my role was, there was a significant age differential. And so to move into a place where I was now serving people who were my peers or frankly older than me, more experienced than me, certainly in the particular ministry that they were in it was very freeing to realize I didn't have to have the answers. I could accompany them to figure out where the Lord was leading.

[00:28:53] Hannah Keisling : Yep. Yep, Absolutely.

[00:28:55] Jim Jansen: Hannah, I might surprise you a little bit with this, but as the, the concept of "The Clear Path of Discipleship" was developing here. I mean, it was a real I don't wanna say experiment, but it was real, like, learning how to talk about it, learning how to synthesize what we were seeing in the archdiocese, in the country, and from ecclesial movements, and Newman Centers, and all the places where this was already a reality, beginning to talk about it. I credit you as being one of the first people to really kinda make the connection between accompaniment and the, the kind of foundational, thing that, that accompaniment is for evangelization. Habit, right? It's just like this foundational habit. Without accompaniment, there really isn't much evangelization that happens, and the clear path. So I just wanna give you a chance in your own words, like, how d- how did those two

connect? How did you connect them?

[00:29:49] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, actually I do remember, I remember being at a workshop that and talking to you afterwards about that and being like, "Oh my gosh, something just clicked."

[00:29:57] Jim Jansen: Well, and it was a blessing for me too. But walk people through that journey for

you as you connected those dots.

[00:30:01] Hannah Keisling : I think for a long time, like, when you, you hear about, like, a clear path or programs, they kinda get this... It can get a bad rap because it sounds almost impersonal. And, i've kind of... I guess I've over the years realized that there's, there's so many right answers for which program do you choose, what, what strategy do you use?

Like, there's many, many right answers to that, and a few wrong. But but, like... But I, I noticed that. I'm like, it's not so much about the program, it is about the people, and the movement of the spirit through the program is just, like, this mechanism that it helps enable these people to, to move through.

And also seeing people do very successful evangelization without any program, and watching that happen- Yeah ... I'm like, "Why is that working and then this one's not over here? And but this program is so well organized," and like, just, like, I just would keep looking at everything and, and asking a lot of questions.

And and then it just... it finally clicked that, like, none of the programs work or matter if there isn't accompaniment and people that are really making it alive. And- I think that we, I mean, in this society, we really like a plug-and-play, like, "This just works. Just do it," and kinda forget the work that goes behind that is just all these relationships.

And I think more the, the programs, I look at them as just opportunities for relationships to grow and flourish that have an intentionality behind them, it... that's pointing us towards Christ. Because I think m- many, many people are actually pretty good at making friends. But I think the... and, and myself included in this, the, the place that we're afraid of is making friends and then intentionally hoping that you can...

like, trying to move that friendship, yourself and that person, towards Christ can be intimidating. You know, there's a lot of fear with that. So when you have a program that, that helps just set the tone for that, it can break down some barriers for people. And not everyone needs a program, and I, I've also been humbled by that, realizing, like, you know, if, if you don't, if Alpha's not right for you, like, that's okay.

And if you can do this without a, a program behind you, like, amen, that, that's great. And that's, that's not a bad thing. That's not a... I don't have to be defensive or worried about Alpha being successful, 'cause it's not about Alpha. So that's, that's where I, I don't know, I guess it's just been a development over time of, of seeing that and putting more emphasis on the people and the relationships.

As I, I create sort of a, a foundation and a structure of programs, but then it's... the success has nothing to do with the name of the program, really.

[00:32:48] Jim Jansen: Right. I so much appreciate your sharing that 'cause it, it helped on the other side of it, helped connect the dots for me. 'Cause I had, seen for years amazing Hall of Fame missionaries, that were, I mean, exceptionally fruitful. Nothing fake about it. I really saw the fruit of lives being changed by their labors the way they would accompany people.

And then I saw them get into a new context, a new parish, and struggle. And I'm like: Man, what is going on here? And what, , what dawned on me is like, it's not that they... there was anything that really changed with them. It's not that they were suddenly not committed to sharing their faith or unwilling to accompany people.

What happened was they lost their context. That when they were in their old parish for, you know, again, my college ministry days, oftentimes a Newman Center, they had this communal context that everybody knew this is the big retreat. This is the thing that fosters conversion. So I'm gonna be a good friend, and I'm gonna walk with my friend, and when my friend is ready, I know I can bring them to this retreat.

And when they're ready to really grow in their faith, I know I can bring them to this class or to this small group. And it was just that I realized like, oh, accompaniment is a one-on-one thing, but it also needs context. And so a good ministry or a good program, a clear path, can provide those contexts for those of us who want to accompany people to have a context to do that. So I d- thank you for, for that. I, I feel like you helped change the way I think and talk about the clear path. So--

[00:34:27] Hannah Keisling : Yeah.

[00:34:27] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it was awesome. Okay, Hannah, I, I really wanna spend some, some time here. You are a wife and a mother. Both of those are lifelong callings. Not that you've been doing them your entire life, but they're like, they're not gonna, they're not gonna end.

How do you manage the challenge of doing professional ministry with your primary vocation?

[00:34:47] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, this is it's something so important to me that is a constant, like, struggle. Like ups and downs too. So I would just first of all say honestly, like, I, I don't do perfectly at this all the time. I think one of the toughest times I've had was when I first switched into this new role, and I was just like, "All right, pressure's on.

I gotta, I gotta make good things happen here, right?" And so I felt like all of a sudden my priorities sort of actually got out of whack for a tiny bit there. And and like my, my family was obviously still important to me, but if a work thing was like pressing, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go to this meeting."

You know, and like, and sometimes that's necessary. But but having to call back to the right order of things almost constantly, and knowing some warning signs. I think those warning signs are different for every person, of like when your priorities are kinda getting a little out of order in, in any stage of life.

Whether it's family life or, or some other stage. But I think that obviously having kids and being married is what keeps pulling me back. Because, you know, when you're married, I mean, your spouse can challenge you in ways that other people can't. And they can say like, "This isn't, this isn't going good."

Like, they can say those things whether I wanna hear it or not. And or whether I want to admit it or not. And so, so my husband's helped a lot with that too, and then obviously just in my own prayer life some spiritual direction as well for a time of just like trying to understand the Lord's voice in my life and recognize him in more than just my ministry.

Because I think the trap is when you work in ministry as a volunteer or a staff member, it can become consuming in a way that is actually not healthy. It can be consuming in a way that then makes your family suffer because you're prioritizing the wrong things.

But then when I, when I'm able to recognize it or be made aware of by a loving husband or if I'm just feeling extra anxious or stressed, that's usually a warning sign of like, "Why am I so stressed right now?"

It's because I'm a little out of whack with my priorities. When, when things are in the right order, it's like God first, first and foremost my family before my work. All of a sudden, like, the ministry takes on just, a just such a different perspective. Like, we're all kind of looking down at it in a way where it's like, this matters but like, I don't have to control it.

And, and so it's just a much calmer, peaceful place to be in ministry. And I've had ups and downs. I've had times where I've been very peaceful at ministry, but other times where I'm like, you know, you develop this, like, people call it the savior complex where you're like, "I single-handedly have to help everyone find Jesus." And I know it sounds silly to say that out loud, but it sneaks in there. It's very sneaky.

[00:37:43] Jim Jansen: Oh, yeah. I mean, anybody who's... Yeah, anybody who's been doing ministry for a while who can't admit that, you're just like, "Okay, you're not paying attention." I, I don't know whether it was St. John XXIII or St. Paul VI, but one of them said, like, All right, Lord, it's your church. I'm going to bed."

There's this, like, cute little phrase that, that is full of diligence, yes, but just a humility and a, and it's like, okay, it is not all dependent upon me. Which is, at least for me, one of the lies that, that moves me into a place where I get out of balance.

[00:38:15] Hannah Keisling: Yeah. Yeah, you start to hear those, those lies that are not really true, and then you- then there's so much self-doubt that can come in there where you're like, "Maybe I'm not meant to do this ministry. Maybe, maybe I misheard the Lord's call. Maybe I'm not actually any good at this, and I- maybe I am not good. Or so those things just start to eat away when you don't deal with that properly, and it- and you can come back from it. I have. I've come back from that, so it's, it's definitely possible to to come, come out of that and be in a great place. But it has been challenging. I do credit my kids for keeping me honest with that because you can't...

When... And they're not toddlers anymore, but when they're that little, like, you can- you can't not prioritize them you know? Like, it- they're, they're gonna tell you immediately their need, and I have to respond to it or they're gonna be crying in my ear. It's like, okay. And I was so blessed. When they were little, I was working part-time and I was able to do a lot of ministry from home, and it was really a sweet time.

And I was just... I was so worried. I'm like, "Maybe I'm not gonna be productive enough in ministry," but the fruits were, were still coming, and it had less... You know, I was working hard, but it was, m- you know, it was probably in, in a better order of priority. So, so yeah, the kids do when they're younger, they, they help with that.

And, and as they're older, it's, they're more independent now. But but so it can still ebb and flow in and out of, of, of being in the right perspective of our work. And our, even our charisms and things. It's like, how, how is this charism is... Obviously it's serving other people, but is it serving my own family?

Like, sometimes, like, I do all this, music for everyone else and I'm like, "Have I, you know, sang with my own kids in a long time?" Or, like, did the- do I ever do, like, worship music where they're-- it's something that they're a part of? And that's, that's a good check and a balance.

And sometimes it's a hard check balance because it's like, oh, but I really like... These other things are so exciting and so... you get all these affirmations from strangers. But--

[00:40:21] Jim Jansen: Yes. I used to say back in my, campus ministry days. I used to say like, "You know, I get praised for all the wrong things." I mean, not really, but like I'll get all... You just all, all this affirmation for being diligent, getting the project done, And, and there is no gratitude from, the, the young little people in, in your household, when you're like, you know, cleaning up the vomit and when you're just like, "All right, I'm actually gonna choose to be a little bit late or to, turn in this project at 90% 'cause I need to be helpful here."

Like, there, there was a, a sometimes an unhelpful reward system that would, could make it challenging to prioritize my family.

[00:41:08] Hannah Keisling : Mm-hmm.

[00:41:08] Jim Jansen: So yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about there. Hannah, I wanna go back to something you said. You, you talked about like, just like when you get out of order, y- you fi- you can find yourself then kinda, okay, the fruit isn't coming.

The, the whispers start to come. "You're not good at this. Maybe you're not really called to this." And you, you said, "You can come back from that," and then you said, "I've come back from that." This sounds like there's a story there. Would you mind sharing a little bit of that?

[00:41:36] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, I think um, part of it was just even tr- transitioning into this new job and taking on probably more responsibility internally than I am meant to at first. And yeah, I- it was, it was tough on my family and my marriage in more ways than I was recognizing. And it's not that, like, in a marriage y- you can say, like, you can decide and like, "Hey, right now we just real- I gotta really focus in on this career change," and all that.

It's not that that can't happen, but it was, it was definitely, like, a hard transition because I, I was also very anxious about the work itself, and very, like, nervous about failing. Because honestly, even the title, having the title evangelization coordinator, I like to think... Like, I'm like, I... It's a very intimidating title to have because the word evangelization is in my job, and I'm like, "I don't know if I'm good at this."

Personally, sometimes I'm like, "I'm really failing sometimes," and other times I'm like, "I think I, I did it," but yeah, it, it was wearing, but I, I think through a lot of conversations my husband and I have had, both, difficult, good ones and then also my own just, okay, I had to start recognizing that I was way too anxious about my job and letting go of the responsibility of all the success of everything the Holy Spirit was supposed to do.

And so it was, it was a process, I would say, and, and still is here and there. And it is interesting because, I've, I've been a parishioner where I've been working, and so that's a weird... When you're the youth minister, not too... It's not a crazy amount of crossover. But when you're the evangelization coordinator, all of a sudden, like, all the lines were getting very blurred for me, and it's like, "Okay, am I here as a wife and mother and parishioner, or am I here as the staff member?"

And I c- I was having a hard time discerning between those lines all the time. And I, I had prided myself for so long on being really good about that as a youth minister, and then in this new role it just kind of hit me hard. I was like, "Wow, I, I didn't expect that to be as hard as it was."

[00:43:57] Jim Jansen: How did you sort it out?

[00:43:58] Hannah Keisling : Honestly, for a while we, we went to mass other places for a bit. And I just had to also be okay that if my family, like... It was just like if I'm planning a program, a parish mission, and it's not something that my family is really gonna go to, I had to be okay with that, that it wasn't like everything that I'm doing at work has to, like, fix everything for my own family.

Like, if, if we're needing something, I couldn't use my job to make it happen. I don't know, it's just a weird, a weird temptation to think, "Okay, now I can fix everything," without actually, like, going to, like, as a wife and mother working through that with my own family. So it's like my family became a job.

It was weird, yeah. So, but we came out of it, and, I think, I think we have a better relationship with just what it even means to be part of a parish right now. Al- almost like, at least I do like just letting go of, of some things and expectations where it's like it's my work, so I'm always looking at every critical thing.

Like, this needs to be better, this... You know? Like, and it's a great place, so I'm like I have to just put on a different lens often and say like, "No, I, I'm here and I'm encountering Jesus, and this Mass is beautiful, and my family's here. This is great." Like, I have to just put on different glasses and be ver- more intentional than I thought I had to be.

[00:45:20] Jim Jansen: Hannah, I just so appreciate the humility of that. Like, what I hear you saying is you learned how to... i'm assuming there were some schedule boundaries, but that you you had to create kind of boundaries in the way you thought. You're like, "I have to think differently about this.

I'm not responsible for this. I'm here as a mom today, okay? I'm here as a staff member t-today." 'Cause I think a lot of times when we notice things being out of bounds, particularly when it's the things that are most important, our relationship with the Lord, our relationship with our family, there's a tendency to just run away.

It's like, "Okay, okay, this is not working. I can't, I can't work at this parish. I can't do this job. I quit." And it's like maybe. I mean, if that's what the Lord is really asking. But you did the harder work of saying, "Okay, so I'm called here. How do I stay here the right way?" Right? "How do I think differently? How do I let go of some of this responsibility, false responsibility that I'm clinging to?" That's, that's hard work. That's good discernment.

[00:46:30] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, I think that, yeah, the, it's less of a boundary of time commitment. The time commitment was actually easier than the youth ministry work. Because of just, there were, there were still evening things, but it wasn't, like, a constant, like, every weekend and but it was a boundary of, of thinking and understanding--

[00:46:50] Jim Jansen: Yes. Ugh, again, why are you like-- you're like reading my journal. It's like, it's one thing, it's like, "Yeah, I'm home but I'm not here," mentally. It's like to be physically home, to, to leave the place of work, but to actually leave the work there.

Thank you for, for sharing that because I think, I-- hopefully, I mean, if it's just a conversation for me, thank you.

But I, I think there's some people listening who are like, "Oh my gosh, like I feel that too. I know what it is to have the real boundary problems being not, being present at work too long. It's actually taking it home with me and clinging to it and holding to it in ways that are, that are unhealthy.

[00:47:29] Hannah Keisling : Yep. Yeah, for sure.

[00:47:32] Jim Jansen: Thank you, Hannah. Hannah, our time has totally flown. I want to give you a chance first off, just maybe two last things. First to just say, like, if you had to just sum up your hopes and your dreams for how your work would impact your parish, what would you say?

[00:47:48] Hannah Keisling : Oh my goodness. I'd say I hope that just, again, it comes back to presence and even just that personal boundary of being present to my own family, that I, I hope first of all, that I can be a model of being present to the people in front of me, and that I could prioritize relationships with people over success in any other way.

And I do hope that I can help be a guiding factor. I know I've, I've, I've read so much, and I've had so much education and experience that, like, I'm very grateful for, and I, I am hoping that I can be useful in just guiding people to understand their own call in that way. And I don't know... I mean, I don't know how long I'll be here.

I, I'd like to think I'll be here for a long time, but the exciting thing is, like, I see the Lord just kind of, like, leading me on now, versus I used to be, like, kind of dragging him along, like, "Let's get this done," like, "Let's get everyone in heaven." But now the imagery in my prayer is more like him leading me and saying like, "We're going on this adventure."

And I, I'm very at peace not knowing where he's leading exactly. And I hope that I can help, I hope that that helps me not be a barrier in any way to people's own faith development and , that they wouldn't see, like, me as a staff member as like a doorkeeper, a gatekeeper in any way, but more of a, a, like, yeah, this is, this is the way, and your way is we're all kind of going the same direction from our own angle.

So I hope that the fruit of that is that our parish can really come even more alive. We have so many parishioners. I know a good amount of them, and I know that there's, like, a good percentage of them that are f- are feeling very connected and actively engaged in their faith. And then I also know that there's so many who are showing up, and it's, it's probably not easy.

They probably don't feel as connected to the community or maybe not even to Christ. And I just hope that I can help expand to them, reach them more in some way through other people, and I just... I also know that single-handedly I cannot do that myself, and I will reach more people when I, when I admit that.

[00:50:10] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's beautiful. Hannah, last thing. For those who are listening to this and they're like, "Oh, gosh, this is..." They can feel the rhyme between some of the things that you wrestled with, some of the, the tensions of transitioning from one ministry role to another, balancing family life and work, , being able to live into a, a personal apostolate and a charism and professional ministry. Just for those that are wrestling with some of those same things, what, what kind of parting words, encouragement do you have for them?

[00:50:45] Hannah Keisling : I would say the most grounding thing I can do is be rooted in scripture and the daily readings, and know, I didn't talk about it much today, but I would say that that is the most grounding to be actively listening for God's voice constantly. And the other thing is, don't forget to pray for your people, and I'm not just talking about our parishioners, but, like, by name, each of my children. I think because I'm, I'm always working when I'm praying or whatever, I, I forget to then in my own personal prayer sometimes, like, call out by name. Like, "I need prayers for my daughter for this, and my husband for this," and not to forget to actually pray for them as well, more than, more than your ministry.

You know, for a while I feel like I was praying more for my ministry than my family, and that was one of the indicators for me, too. So rooted in scripture, listening for God's voice, and then also praying for your people by name regularly. Don't forget to do that.

[00:51:45] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Hannah, thank you. Thank you for just such a great conversation. Thank you for everything you're doing at St. Vincent de Paul and for your family.

[00:51:54] Hannah Keisling : Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:51:57] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody. You know somebody who needs to hear this conversation. You got this friend and you're like, "I think they might be just a little bit out of balance. They might be taking just too much responsibility." I'm not saying you lead that way, but if there's somebody that came to mind that you think would benefit from hearing this conversation, take a moment and share it out with a friend.