[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So today I get to share with you the audio of a webinar I did where I was interviewed by John Point, event of great Catholic parishes talking about discipleship pathways. John and I cover all sorts of ground. In this webinar, we talk about what it actually means to be a missionary disciple.

We talk about the story behind my book, the Clear Path of Discipleship. We talk about how biting your tongue is sometimes an act of love. We talk about what the clear means in building a clear path of discipleship, why it's so important to be clear and simple. We talk about engaging school parents and so much more.

Really fun conversation. Uh, John and I go back and forth, take a couple questions. You're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen. 

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

[00:01:12] John Poitevent: Hello everybody, and welcome to our webinar today. I'm John Poitevent. I'm the founder of Great Catholic Parishes and I'm so excited about our topic and our guest today. Jim Jansen is a coach and consultant with decades of experience in evangelization and parish renewal. He was one of the first FOCUS missionaries. We won't say how long ago that was. 

[00:01:37] Jim Jansen: Thank you for that. 

[00:01:38] John Poitevent: Uh, he now works for the Archdiocese of Omaha leading a parish support team that helps parish leaders rediscover their missionary identity. I love that he's here today because number one, he's just a great person to talk to. You'll see I could talk to Jim au, uh, number two because he had me on his podcast, the Equip Cast.

I'll put a link to that in the chat. Such great content. They're great people. I love it. And then lastly, because he specializes in this process of making disciples and he not only is an expert in it, but he's a practitioner. He's, uh, someone who joyfully engages in it, and it's contagious. And you'll see that today. So Jim, well welcome and thank you for taking the time today to join us. 

[00:02:23] Jim Jansen: Thanks, John. It's a joy to be with you. I mean, I'm trying to think like we, we've recorded a fair amount of our conversations, but I think there's at least double that, that we've just, yeah, we just, first time we met we were just off to the races talking and connecting and this is fun. I mean, you know, the mics are on now and we're recording, but it just feels like another conversation with a friend. 

[00:02:43] John Poitevent: This is really my house. It's a real background. I get questions like, what's the color of your cabinets? Where'd you get your bar stools? But I wanna say your office background looks, uh, better than mine. You've got a great view there in Omaha. 

[00:02:57] Jim Jansen: Thank you. Yeah, thank you. This is real. This is real. That's a real saw on the back, on the back wall. Like if you, if you zoom in, there's a couple of saw blades. Long story there. They're, they're my dad's. So my dad was a carpenter. I might talk about his, his work, uh, later in our conversation. But, uh, those are, yeah, those are reminders of, uh, those all have a special place. There's kind of a saint along, along the, uh, bookshelf there. So. 

[00:03:21] John Poitevent: Awesome. 

[00:03:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Surrounded by friends. 

[00:03:23] John Poitevent: I'm sure people didn't tune in for us to give them tours of our offices. So let's get, uh, let's get to the, to the main thing here. You know, I want to start with, you know, your book is what we're gonna talk about today, A clear path, uh, how to make Missionary disciples in your parish. When I work with parishes, I tell them there's three questions that they need to continually ask themselves. 

[00:03:46] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:03:46] John Poitevent: Number one is what is a disciple? Number two is how will we make disciples In our context, in our community, in our parish. Number three, is it working? Is our way for making disciples still working? We can't just say yes once and then keep doing the same thing for 20 years. But I wanna start with that first question. What is a disciple?

Specifically what is a missionary disciple? You have in your book, because I think about that scene from the Princess Bride where he says that word, it does not mean what you think it means. 

[00:04:19] Jim Jansen: What you think it means. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I John, I love that. I love that question because, you know, I remember I started, now I'm gonna, uh, out myself here. I started as a FOCUS missionary in 1999. And you know, when, when I was going around telling people what I was doing, there were a whole lot of people who would kinda look at me sideways and they're like, does the bishop know, like Catholic Bible study missionary. It was very foreign. And now, you know, in, in the last 20, 25 years, uh, again, thank you Pope Francis, but there's been this revolution where missionary disciple has just become part of our common parlance.

And that's beautiful, but there's a problem if we don't mean the same thing from that. So I'll, I mean, I'll take a stab at it. I'm just gonna start by saying, uh, it's more than just showing up on Sunday. Right? I mean, there, there's something about, I, I love the way Pope Francis introduces the term. He, he's like, it's, it's about Right.

Right. It's more than just thinking of yourself as a disciple. It's thinking of yourself as a missionary disciple. And I think it's that extra adjective missionary that makes all the difference. It's about mission, it's about fruitfulness. Yes, love of God and love of neighbor, which are hard to quantify, but to be really specific, I think it's hard to be a missionary disciple and not have at least 30 minutes of quiet, conversational prayer with the Lord as part of your regular routine.

I think it's really hard to be a missionary disciple without having some regular routine of intercession for the people in your life. And I think there has to be some level of personal apostolate. Meaning like, you have to, like, you have to know how to share your story. You have to have not just a sense of mission, but you also have to know like, how has the Lord equipped me for that mission?

So for many people, that involves an awareness of their gifting or their charisms. But there's, it's not just an amorphous thing. It's a, it's a like true to the word missionary, like on mission missile, you know, sent, like, I know I'm sent someplace and I know what I'm sent to do. I know how I'm equipped and gifted for that call.

So, I mean, we could say a lot more, but it's certainly more than just showing up on Sunday. 

[00:06:33] John Poitevent: Yeah. And it's even more than just believing. Right. I, I saw something written recently that said there's a difference between someone saying, I believe in Jesus and someone living the words in ways of Jesus. 

[00:06:47] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It's a second conversion, if you will. There's this commitment. I think you see it if you, if we have the eyes to say you see it happening in, in the disciples. They make this commitment to follow Jesus. And then there's this growing commitment, certainly to him, but there's this growing commitment to the second half of that, right.

And I will make you fishers of men. And so it's everything like Peter's question about like, well, how many times do I have to forgive them? And like the Gentiles too. And like all of these questions, you know, are, are coming up. I think what you're seeing is this deeper conversion to be missionary, right? To have God's heart for others. 

[00:07:22] John Poitevent: Yeah. And it involves that wrestling, right, of wait, who is my neighbor? Could you narrow that down for me? And you know, it's this wrestling with God, with God having more and more permission in your heart to uh, to have his way, right? 

[00:07:37] Jim Jansen: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And that's just, I mean, I think that's part of, like, that's part of what Pope Francis and I mean, John Paul ii, Pope Benedict. I'm pretty sure we're gonna see St. Leo in, in the same vein here. We're being called to a second conversion. You know, it, it's so funny. I mean, not that I'm like endorsing this or saying that this is, you know, um, a, a great thing to do, but like magisterium ai or just a simple kind of like search. You don't have to get too far into trying to figure out what the new evangelization is before it becomes pretty clear that it involves pastoral conversion, this change of heart and mind to begin to see ourselves, to be able to begin to see the Lord in a new way and to begin to see our neighbors in a new way.

So all of those things, all of that, that conversion. Okay. It's more than just me and Jesus. He has this job for me to do and it fits me, and I'm not doing it alone. You know, I'm certainly doing it with him, but he's also probably given me companions. All of that is a, is a conversion process that I think is at the heart of the new evangelization and parish renewal.

[00:08:43] John Poitevent: So let's, let's talk about your book. Why did you write a clear path and why did you choose that title? 

[00:08:51] Jim Jansen: You know, uh, I have to start with just kind of a funny anecdote. 'cause this was, this was a very personal journey. My, my wife is a writer. I enjoyed the process of writing the book, but to be honest, it's the first time I've ever enjoyed writing.

You know, I had all sorts of bad habits during my academic training, you know, it's like I'd have a huge paper due and I'd wait till the night before and all that stuff. I'm sure nobody listening or, or watching can, can, uh, relate with that. So, my wife was a journalist, she was a professional writer. I, I, I got brave and I showed her just a little bit and she's like, wow, honey, this is actually good.

I'm like, I know. I'm like so surprised. I was like, I was as surprised as she as she was because it, it was basically, it was something that, it just, it just welled up in me and I couldn't not write. I had to get it out. I had to kind of express it. I had to get it kind of all orderly and compiled. So that other people could have access to it.

It was, in many ways it was a product of my own experience. I had a unique journey as a FOCUS missionary where I stayed at one campus for 18 years. That just doesn't happen. You know? You're lucky if you get to stay for two, three, maybe four. But what happened with that is I got to see all of the students I worked with land in parishes, start their families, get involved and connected, and frankly, I noticed something really disturbing.

Most of them were really stifled by the cultures in the parishes they landed in. And again, they were good faithful Catholics, and that's nothing, you know, to, to take for granted. But they weren't, uh, they were on the pastoral council. They were singing in the choir. But what they weren't doing was leading small groups, mentoring other people, preaching the gospel to coworkers and neighbors.

Again, they were raising their, their kids Catholic. And that was great. And, and, and they were faithful. But there was a fruitfulness that was missing that I couldn't make sense of because they were, they were amazing folks. I mean, they were Hall of Fame all star missionaries when I worked with them. And yet they found themselves in this new context and they struggled.

And what I ultimately made sense of that is like they didn't have the supportive culture and the context to be able to bear the fruit that they had when they were on campus. One, they, they lacked companions. And, and that was, that's hard, you know, change your life where the, the social environment of a very young college student, it's like, okay, fine.

But the other thing is, even though they had the skills and they had the habits, it turns out evangelization is a team sport. And here's what I mean by that. Even if you've been a professional missionary and you know how to share your story and you know how to make friends and you know how to walk with people through their journey, there's a certain point and it happens pretty quickly where you're like, man, I just wish I had a place where I could bring this new friend of mine who's not maybe ready for conversion or ready to like, give their life to Christ.

I just wish there was a place where I could get them together with other, other, like Christians who could just be friends with them, who are not gonna judge them, who are gonna welcome them, and whose life and witness. Could continue to spark their curiosity and then like when they're ready, I wish there was a place I could bring them where they could hear the gospel and, and then I wish there was a place when they're ready where I could help them grow and mature in the, the life and habit of a disciple.

And then I wish there was a place at some point when they're ready, where they could be equipped for their personal mission. And those kind of four stages of the journey, I ended up labeling relational outreach, conversion moment, faith formation, and evangelization formation. And they're just, just a like ministry steps on this clear path that when you are individually accompanying someone, you can actually bring them there and you have a context where it's just not on you all alone.

So that's a, that's a part. I, I saw them struggling and then I saw the difference when the parish would just provide a little bit of that help, all of a sudden they would come to life. All of a sudden they, they would literally come out of the woodwork. Uh, and so it was fun to see the pastors like, holy cow, I had no idea these people were in my parish.

And they were, they were there all along, but they were kind of hidden because they were waiting for a context where they could, uh, bring their gifts and their training to life. 

[00:13:14] John Poitevent: Share those four pieces again, because I think they're important for us to recognize that all of them are vital to parish fatality.

[00:13:23] Jim Jansen: Yeah. So at, at the very beginning, right? Of a, of a person's journey. They just need a place where they can connect. So we'll call that relational outreach, right? A, a place where a parish has some sort of ministry, and these ministries tend to be very organic. So in the book, I use an example of a, of a men's softball league where the guys love softball and they love beer and wings, but they also love Jesus.

And they use that softball team as a context to bring in other men, and then eventually wives and kids and the whole families into a place where they can just develop friendships with them. That's what relational outreach is. It's just a relaxed context where people can make friends and those relationships can develop so that when people are ready, they can be invited to a conversion moment.

Step two. This is a place more familiar, I think in increasingly in the church today. Ministries like Christ Life Alpha, maybe a parish based retreat where the gospel is clearly proclaimed and people have a chance to encounter the Lord and to make a decision, uh, about the claims he makes and invite them into their life.

Those ministries are essential even for, you know, many of us who've been around the church our entire lives, coming to a place where we can make a decision that like, yeah, I really think this is real and I, I I want the Lord to be in my life. I want him to be the Lord of my life. That's a really essential step in, in the process.

The third is probably the most common. Uh, we, I call it faith formation. That's like the, the stuff. I would just warn without going in too deep here, there's a pitfall learning Catholic stuff, what we believe, you know, uh, doctrine, there's no end to that. Uh, and it's fun. And those of us who are a little bit more nerdy, you know, maybe just wanna, you know, we could happily binge watch form.org or anything from Ascension Press that has to be more than just information.

It's about transformation. That is a, a place where there's mentoring, where there's small groups, where people aren't just learning stuff in their heads, but their, their lives are being transformed by new habits of prayer, of sacramental living, adopting the moral life, et cetera, et cetera. Often those are really well done in a small group context.

It's a great delivery vehicle and it's a great place where it can be more than just information. It can actually be about transformation. And then the final step is parishes have to have a place where they actually equip people to be. Missionary disciples, so they learn the very basic skills of how to share their story of what God's done in their life, how to share just the basics of the good news, right?

God loves you and sin screws that up and, and Jesus fixes it, but you have to let him, right? Just really, really basic things that that can show up in conversation. People can learn about us, how to lead a small group. They can learn about the gifts that the Lord has gifted them, charisms, you know how he's maybe where he's calling them to mission, and then ideally they can find some companionship, right?

Encouragement, and somebody who could be a teammate with them in that endeavor. If parishes have some sort of ministry context at each of those four stages, it makes a huge difference in helping the missionary disciples. You have accompany people to grow and mature as disciples. 

[00:16:44] John Poitevent: I think that a company piece is what I hear you. Expressing is a commonality in all of those stages. Yes. That it's never just information, it's never just a talking at or a, uh, there's an engaging of questions of wrestling with things Yeah. Of, of struggle. How important is it to create a place where, especially with today's culture . How important is it for, for people in all those spaces to recognize that, that it needs to be a conversation where people feel safe expressing, uh, their questions, concerns, doubts, that sort of thing?

[00:17:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I mean, it, it's huge. You know, the people who work in youth ministry sometimes have a mantra, doubt isn't toxic. To faith. It, it's unexpressed doubt that is toxic to faith. And that's true of young people, but it's also true of adults. And that's part of, again, you know, I don't work for Alpha, but that's part of the magic of Alpha is that they just create this environment where people can say.

Those things are like, wait, wasn't, you know, again, think about somebody from an unchurched background and they, they, you know, they've like, they've maybe got no background. They're gonna say things like, wait, wasn't Jesus married to Mary Magdalene? You know, they read the Da Vinci code, or they watched the movie and, you know, there's this kind of, there's this phrase that like, your act of charity in a circumstance like that for a very new young believer is to bite your tongue till it bleeds.

Like, you know, it, it's just not helpful initially, you know, to like, I mean, it's never helpful to, you know, to scream out, no, you idiot, or, that's, that's never helpful. But what Alpha and Christ life and some of these other ministries do is they just create a context where people can express their questions and their doubts and their confusions, and there's a time and a place for answering those.

I mean. Our challenge is not good answers. The problem is oftentimes we're too quick to answer until the real questions have come out, or until, until people feel safe or curious for the answer. And so those, those ministries, again, they provide a context and also a formation. So, you know, I'm a big fan of having a place that gives people the basic orientation and the training and equipping to be a missionary disciple.

But there's something about the experience of anyone who served as a table leader or a prayer team member on a retreat. And you just start like, it's the doing that teaches you what it means to actually walk with someone and, and, and honestly how different you have become living, you know, living as a disciple, a follower of Christ, you start to recognize like, wow, God's like totally transformed me.

'cause they're saying stuff and they think stuff. And that's exactly where I was. I just forgot. Because I'm not that person anymore. 

[00:19:36] John Poitevent: It's so powerful in a, it really is what makes it a conversation, right, is when you, yes. You hear what someone says and you even lean into it. So anybody else here had wondered about Jesus' family?

Any, anybody else here wondered about what we don't know about those early years of his life? Just even allowing a curious conversation . Makes people feel like, oh, I can actually say these things out loud, right? 

[00:20:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It's so good. I mean, I, I'm a big fan. I actually don't know who to credit with this. It's possible, it's the Gallup organization. I've heard divine renovation. Say it. The mantra for evangelization, the kind of experiential staging is, you know, belong, believe, behave that. Sometimes we, we get it backwards. We turn ourselves into sororities. It's like, well, if you look like us and you act like us, then you can belong and be a part of us.

And the gospel is exactly opposite. And I think you see this, you know, we're not too far away from the Easter season. I think you see this dramatically portrayed in the life of Thomas the Apostle, who despite the fact that he, again, I'm thinking like post-resurrection, you know, I will not believe thus unless I stick my hand in the nails and in his side.

Okay? He clearly doesn't believe, but he still belongs. I mean, despite the, despite the fact that he's kind of obnoxiously, heck no in his unbelief, he still is a part. The, these are still his friends and they still welcome him. So he belongs, he's there in the, in the upper room. He misses the first time, but he is there when Jesus comes back and it's his belonging.

That leads to his, again, dramatic believing, which leads to his really impressive behaving. Again, I, I've never like measured this out, but you know, Thomas the apostle is considered the father of Christians in India, and I think that's more mileage than almost anybody else put in. I mean, Paul, you know, Paul's pretty impressive.

He's got multiple journeys, you know, and St. James went all the way to Spain. But man, going to India, that's, that's some impressive, uh, apostolic endeavor. And you see this again, this, this progress where he goes from belonging to believing again and to behaving. 

[00:21:57] John Poitevent: I love that paradigm shift. I, I've changed it a little bit. I, I like to replace, behave with, become, belong, believe, become, because I do think that following Jesus is a much more of a becoming than a behaving. 

[00:22:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah, no, that's a, that's a way better word, behaving. It can sound whatever. There's some connotations that we probably don't want in that.

[00:22:20] John Poitevent: And there's times we do behave out of obedience, out of like, we know it's the right thing to do, but I think, uh, I think everyone thinks we're trying to change their behavior rather than we're trying to help you become who God created you to be. You know? 

[00:22:35] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, and, and we would say that like, what, what baptism, what, what, what the Holy Spirit does is he doesn't just change the way we behave. He, he changes who we are. We are a new creation. We're a new creature. So, yeah. I love, that's way better. Okay. Now I have someone to cite. 

[00:22:51] John Poitevent: Yes, please, please cite. Hey, I want to ask you, when you see, you think about these four, uh, stages that you're describing. 

[00:23:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:23:00] John Poitevent: Or four parts of the journey that we need to accompany people in. When you think about parishes that are. Doing this and parishes that are not doing faith formation in this way, what do you see as the key differences?

[00:23:17] Jim Jansen: Hmm. I mean, we, if parishes aren't, if they don't have a commitment in some sort of ministry, uh, to accompany people, people just don't move. So maybe they find a spot. Again, most parishes have some sort of faith formation going. At the very least, they've got a form.org subscription and you know, you can find the code in the bulletin.

But what happens is if you don't have a discipleship pathway or a clear path, and I'm talking about the clear piece, 'cause that's kind of the essential part. There is a, there's a simplicity that is essential to all of this because, I mean, spoiler alert that there's really good research that shows the more offerings you have, the less your church is gonna grow.

And I'll say that again. 'cause some, some of you are like, I'm multitasking. And you're like, and, and you didn't believe it. It was like, no, it's true. There's really good research. Terry Bradshaw, university of Florida. There is a, there is a strong, strong, strong inverse correlation to the amount of stuff you have and how much you grow.

Meaning the more simple and clear your pathway is, the more likely you are to grow. And the more stuff you offer, the less likely. And so what happens is if you don't have a clear discipleship pathway, people just get stuck. Or worse yet, like they get stuck in some ministry, uh, and they never grow and, and mature.

Sometimes they just, they just choose not to choose, right? Again, it's like the, you know, it's like the smelly candle shop phenomenon. At least for guys, you know, you're like, you kinda like you, you walk up and there's like a couple of candles, and after like the third or fourth smell, my, my mind is like swimming and I just choose not to choose is like, okay, uh, I don't think I'm gonna get her a candle.

I think, I think I'll get her flowers and chocolate again. It's just like, because it's overwhelming and, and people experience our parishes that way. It's well-meaning, but we have too much stuff. And again, if we don't, and again, even if you, even if, even if you're simple, if you don't have something for people, the next stage of the journey, if there's nothing to equip people to live as an ordinary mission disciple, where would they find that?

I mean, there are missionary disciples in our parishes, but if you ask them who trained you or taught you how to share your faith, the answer is very rarely you. Parish that's, it's usually some college ministry or some other apostolate that they did. Maybe they did missionary work somewhere else. It's very rare that parishes are doing that, but when we do, it's game changing.

[00:25:57] John Poitevent: Yeah. I, uh, often will work with or visit parishes and they say, oh, we're a very active parish. We have over a hundred ministries. Yes. Or whatever it is. And then when I say, how many of those ministry leaders are well-formed, and they know that their ministry is intentionally aligned with your mission to make disciples. I get crickets, right? 

[00:26:18] Jim Jansen: Yeah, for sure. Yes. Yeah. And it's, and it's, it's hard. I mean, at, at so many levels, what we end up doing is we end up dissipating our energy, our, our leadership capacity. And, and we get people in the wrong spot. So you get somebody who is like, wow, they're actually gifted as a missionary disciple.

They, they're, they're really good at making friends with non-believers or non-members of your community. And we end up assigning them to fry fish, you know, or to, or to set up tables or to do something else. And they're like, oh man. Like you really need that person out in the neighborhood in the front, you know, or at the front door at least you need them using those gifts to draw people in.

But we, we have an overabundance of ministries and then, and then we end up kind of suffering under the weight of it. And it's the same people doing everything. 'cause nobody's growing and maturing and we get tired and bitter. And anyway, maybe it just, how did this turn into a counseling session? I dunno.

[00:27:19] John Poitevent: Well, what you're describing is not foreign to anyone listening. And uh, yeah, there's, there's a lot of issues there. There's entitlement, there is. A lack of succession planning and leadership. There's a lack of seeing a necessity of infusion of new people, which all of those are important. . You talk about ministry mapping in your book.

Describe that process, what to expect, what does that mean, and then what is Yeah. The experience of that in a parish. 

[00:27:49] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's great. So it's probably worth sharing. You know, I talked, we talked about like the ministry context for people. Relational outreach, conversion moment, faith formation, evangelization, formation.

That's kind of overlaid. I, I rely a lot and I cite the work of she Wadel, uh, and some others where they talk about the thresholds of conversion and discipleship, you know, the process that people move through. What we do in the ministry mapping is we put the thresholds up there. So again, people often go from this stage where they're suspicious and hostile.

They come to a place of trust, openness, seeking, uh, I'm sure many of the listeners, if you're familiar with Sherri Wood's work from forming Intentional Disciples. This is familiar. Then they'll come to a place of decision and then they're a new disciple, and then they're missionary disciple. And then God willing, they get to a place where they're really fruitful, where like there are people who would say, yeah, my life has been changed by Bill.

It was his witness and his investment in me that made all the difference. So this kind of like these, these thresholds of conversion and discipleship. We put, put a big map, kinda like 10 by 10 up on the wall. And then we take every single parish ministry from OCIA to the youth ministry, to the knitting club, all the stuff, and we put it on the wall and we put leadership and maintenance in a different category.

Cutting the grass is important, but. That's not usually a disciple making activity, you know, and we put the liturgical stuff, you know, on, on the side, and we put Corporal works of mercy on the side. Essential, it's a mark of our faithfulness, but we say like, no, what's actually helping people grow and mature spiritually as a disciple?

And then we put those cards where they belong or like what thresholds that they, that they tend to serve. And inevitably you find this huge cluster of faith formation spaces, right? Things to help young disciples learn and grow about the stuff of being Catholic and not even necessarily young. I mean, sometimes it's like, wow, it's a deep dive into the book of James.

Praise God. But what you notice is there's a huge gap in. Helping people who are really seeking and trying to make a decision about Jesus. We have nothing to help them make that decision. We have nothing to foster their encounter with the Lord. And we have nothing on the far end. When people are at the very beginning of their journey, there's no place for them to connect relationally.

And usually there's very little to nothing that forms and equips them as missionaries. So we'll go through this exercise and sometimes it's a little heated, you know? 'cause people will recognize the potential. They'll be like, wait, but the, but everybody's welcome. Atheists are welcome at the pancake feed.

And you're like, okay, well fine. Yes, they're welcome, but let's just be honest. How many atheists are coming to the pancake feed and then getting an RCIA. Okay. So we see potential, but it's not doing that yet. That's not what it's for. Okay, got it. So you sort through it all. People take a deep breath, they look at the wall and they're like, oh, no wonder we don't have anybody reaching out to people.

We have nothing there. We have nothing forming people to reach out, so why would we? And it always feels like it's the same people doing things because all we're doing is feeding people and creating a, a quasi consumer culture. Oh, and it's just like instantly there's like these epiphanies where people are like, man, we're just not helping people and or we don't have a context to help people grow and mature.

No wonder they're getting stuck. It's a powerful moment. And to be honest. Patterns are so familiar. I could walk in and say, Hey, you don't have something here. You don't have something here. You don't have. But it is the experience of doing it together that does something in people's hearts and minds, which is really a joy to watch and to participate in.

[00:31:36] John Poitevent: So let's say we do this and we're, we're kind of mapping out our ministries. We're identifying what needs they meet or where they connect with people and whether we're maximizing the potential of what they have, like the fish fry . Or whatever. And we recognize there's some that either don't fit into any of that.

Or there, uh, we say, well, you know, here's where we'd like to see you be more intentional in that. And you either get, you get what happens, what are some of the things that happen when you start to mess with people's ministries. And then, oh, how do you navigate that, that, uh, journey of helping them see what more it could be.

[00:32:16] Jim Jansen: Yeah, well this is where really good change management comes in. So, and what I mean by that is nobody wants to do something different unless they're aware and have a desire for the change. So, uh, and, and part of that is like, there's just usually a i, it doesn't have to take forever, but there's an involved process where you begin to make people aware of the gaps.

It's like, Hey, have you noticed that there's not any young people around? Uh ha Have you noticed that? It feels like it's the same people doing everything. And I don't know about you, but I'm starting to feel kind of tired and, and you just begin a very intentional process of educating people about the challenges that the community is experiencing.

And oftentimes that shows up in data about mass attendance and financial giving as well. And then you say, well, what if we started to, to actually invite people in? What if we started to evangelize? And so there's tools that I, I recommend in the book that my team and I use all the time. We've gamified, uh, an introduction to the thresholds.

So it's, it's on the website, clear path book.com, English and Spanish. But it's just a game. It takes about 30 minutes. We just go through some characters and you, you kind of go through this, this character, you know, bill grew up Catholic, but he hasn't been to church in many years. He has some fond memories, but he has no connection to the local Catholic parish.

And you just begin to like say, Hmm, where's Bill on the journey? And you realize. He's at a place of trust, but he's certainly not living as a disciple right now. And you play that, that game with people. And people begin to recognize, uh, first off their own story, they start to recognize loved ones, friends and family.

They start to very quickly recognize, yeah, um, like, Bill's just not gonna come to a Bible study. He's not gonna come to a, you know, deep dive theology of the body retreat. How are we gonna get Bill? And pretty quickly with, with just a easy facilitated conversation, they realize the only thing that's gonna go get Bill is a friend, someone who, who wins bill's trust and slowly, you know, walks with him to the point where maybe he might come to, uh, to a, to a retreat.

You really start to like, as you do this, you have to invest in helping people understand the gaps. The needs and the process, like what evangelization really means, what it really, what a, what a missionary disciple really looks like. And then there's usually a small group of people that say, okay, like, let's go.

Can we, can we get to work? And that's what I recommend is like, great, now you're ready for discernment. So in the book, I, I line out the phases of building a clear path. I talk about what it is, but it's like, first thing is you do this assessment mapping is, you know, kind of a, a great exercise for that.

But then you're like, okay, now what feels like everything's, oh no, there's lots of holes. So now we begin to pray, we begin to reflect together. Where does the Lord want us to start to build? Where, where are there low hanging fruit? Where is the Holy Spirit already at work that we can kind of tap into and, and expand and, and help grow those efforts?

That's the discernment phase. And there's lots of, again, in the book I talk about the discernment. Rosary is just a very simple tool for a small team to bring a question to the Lord. You know, instead of most, most Catholics are really familiar with the rosary. Instead of bringing the mystery, you're like, okay, we're gonna medi meditate on the resurrection.

You bring the question, Lord, who do you want us to reach out to first? And you bring that question to Jesus through Mary, you pray, right? That is what you're thinking about is you pray your 10 Hail Marys, and then there's a little bit of silence and a little bit of journaling, and then people share. And what happens is the Lord speaks and people are like, yeah, yeah.

And all of a sudden there's a clear, clear common theme. Where the Lord is directing you and you have the confidence, uh, not only like, wow, he actually spoke, but we actually listened. And, and from there you begin to move into a place like, great, so now we're gonna do something. We're gonna implement, we're gonna start this particular ministry to fill that need where the Lord is directing our attention.

[00:36:39] John Poitevent: Great. I love those exercises that help people. It it's them connecting with God. It's not you telling them what to do. 

[00:36:48] Jim Jansen: Yes, yes. 

[00:36:48] John Poitevent: It's them receiving from God what to do. And now it's, that's a whole different story than you telling them, go do this, this than this. Right. 

[00:36:56] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And he's, I mean, I'm happy to talk about patterns.

I'm happy, you know, I, I love to play a servant's role to say like, Hey, if the Lord is leading you to start a conversion moment ministry something like Alpha or Christ Life, or a parish based retreat, I'm happy to, to connect you with the resources. We can talk about the pros and cons of different modes.

I'm happy to join in, and, and I do, it's a real joy to join in that discernment process. But Jesus has better advice. So like he does the heavy lifting, you know, he's kind of the primary coach. I'm just there to assist. So I provide those resources and can tell people about the patterns and experiences.

And again, I listen as a participant, you know, I'm trying to help discern with people, but we have to hear from the Lord, where is he's, where is he inviting us? Where is he calling us? The good news is he's more eager to get us started and to, to show us the way than often we are to ask. 

[00:37:55] John Poitevent: Great stuff. As we get into our last quarter of our hour here, I want to again remind you, we'd love to hear from you.

Yeah. I've got a few questions I'm gonna be asking Jim in a, in a minute, but, um, Jim, uh, so please click the q and a button and, and share those with us. Jim, in your book you talk about the primacy of adult formation. . And this is something I've really been focusing on lately. Uh, I've done a little bit of work with Family Faith in Life Catholic Ministries outta California. Stephen, Sarah. 

[00:38:27] Jim Jansen: Yes. I love those guys. 

[00:38:28] John Poitevent: Yeah. Father Tim Donovan.

[00:38:29] Jim Jansen: Father Donovan has been kind, you know, he is from California, so he's come to Nebraska a couple times in the winter. He and I took an epic four-wheeler ride. Oh. It's been over, over a over a year now. A couple, couple years ago. But they do great work, so keep going. I love their stuff. 

[00:38:43] John Poitevent: That's awesome. I want to take an epic four-wheeler ride, uh, in Nebraska, so.

[00:38:47] Jim Jansen: Come on out.

[00:38:47] John Poitevent: We'll talk about that later. But what's interesting is, is their ministry is, uh, primarily to families and kids, but they also . Talk about the primacy of adult formation.

I think it's easy in parishes to do sacramental prep . Religious ed, all the required things that people are . Asking for. Yeah. But most parishes aren't getting a lot of emails saying, why aren't we doing more adult formation? Right. Yes. Uh, that's, that's not the squeaky wheel most of the time, but it is the important thing for us to do.

Yes. So tell us why that is and, and if we're not doing, if we don't have a robust adult faith formation offerings, where would, where would we start? 

[00:39:31] Jim Jansen: So, I mean, you can sum it up this way. It's good theology and it's good sociology. So good theology. I mean, the church teaches really clearly that parents Right.

Are the first formators of, of their kids. I mean, you know, again, you see Jesus really intentionally. Teaching and forming adults. Uh, and he gets mad if people try and keep children for, from them, but he doesn't spend a lot of time teaching kids. He blesses them. He gathers them, and then he teaches their parents because that's the natural kind of divinely established order that this flows.

I mean, it's common sense, but you know, parents are the ones that vote and give and volunteer and do all the things. But there's really good research too. Uh, sociology out of, um, Notre Dame Christian Smith's work and others, Barna and uh, I think Kara has done some work in this space. The data is overwhelming that the number one factor that influences whether a child will practice their faith in adulthood is the faith practice of their parents.

I mean, nothing even comes close. Mission trips, youth ministry, religious education, Catholic schools, the predictor is faith practice of their parents. And, and I might maybe qualify that only by saying like, it's a living kind of convert conversational faith practice. If parents witness, that's huge. If they, if they have faith conversations with their children, it's just off the charts.

But parents aren't equipped for that. And that's, that's not the religious Ed's job. It's not the school's job. That's the parish's job. I mean, you can put it this way, the best thing we can do for our kids is to evangelize and form their parents. And again, it's not hard, but if we're honest, we're just not structured for that.

Our facilities, our personnel, our routines, our culture habits, all those things for most parishes are, are focused on kids. Again, I'm thinking religious education and, and a parish based parochial school. We're having to rediscover, I mean, what the church teaches about the primacy of adult evangelization and catechesis, but it works when you, when you do it, I mean it like it changes like that.

[00:41:52] John Poitevent: So when I talk to people in that space, family faith formation, the data supports this and I ask them, how many of your parents are, would you consider disaffiliated even though they're putting their kids through the sacraments? Hmm, 

[00:42:08] Jim Jansen: that's 

[00:42:08] John Poitevent: a great question. They say AB about 30% and I sometimes I get more, I never hear less than 30%.

And then out of that other 70%, you know what percent are. Engaged spiritually, even though they're not disaffiliated per se. . And, and that's pretty small. So, um, when we talk about . Adult formation, we talk about people who are unsure of their own faith, what they believe, and don't feel safe to talk about that anywhere.

And then we say, you're your child's primary catechist. Yeah. Imagine how that feels for them. Right. So what are some thoughts you have Yes. For engaging. Oh, that's so good. And really meeting those parents where they're at, those adults. Well, 

[00:42:53] Jim Jansen: well, and, and I would also just add, it doesn't feel good for the parents to hear that when, when they don't feel equipped or they're like, I'm not even sure if I am a disciple.

It feels equally as bad for those of us who work for the church, a pastor, A-D-R-E-A catechist to read that, and they're like, well, like, well, that ain't gonna work. You're like, and, and I feel like there's a co, again, there's a couple of things. What often happened, I think early attempts that were well-meaning what we did is we made photocopies that were supposed to be, you know, that we were gonna use in a classroom with a catechist.

And we're like, well, here, mom, uh, the church says, this is your job. Good luck. And like between making dinner and soccer practice and all this stuff, it just didn't happen at all because of the busyness of life, but also because mom's own faith was a little sha. Even if it was there, it maybe wasn't there in a way that she could express it.

And so I think things like building a clear path or like, um, we have a conversion moment that's accessible to parents with young kids. That's the key thing. It's, it's the same thing. You build a clear path. So you have a place where people can connect. You have a place where people can experience conversion, where they can grow and mature, where, you know, where they can be equipped for mission, but you have to make sure that that's accessible.

So what I mean by that is like, you have to think about childcare. And it may not mean that you set up a daycare, you know, in the adjoining room. It might mean that you just have a, a pool of young people that need service hours and empty nesters whose grandkids are far away, who would love, you know, to, to come alongside a family that you have a pool of, of people that are willing to provide free childcare for specific parish events, right.

That are, that are part of your clear path. It means, it means delivery vehicles like small groups. Small groups are ideal because they can meet at any time, in any place, in any location. As, as awesome as it is to have a very gifted teacher offering formation Wednesday nights in the parish basement, that means it's limited to Wednesday night in the parish basement.

Small groups can meet any time and any place, and the content can vary so that it really hits the, the people in that group when they need it. So you just have to get creative at saying, we're gonna foster conversion for the adults, the parents. We're gonna make sure it's accessible to them as parents by thinking about the childcare time, location.

And then what happens is the other, like, you know, religious education, uh, youth ministry, those, those ministries. Have a, uh, they, they have kind of like an, basically they mirror that path. So if you're using Alpha to foster conversion for their parents, you might use Youth Alpha for your youth ministry.

And that way there's a rhyme in the experience. And rather than kind of separating parents and kids, their faith journeys begin to intersect more and more. And so you're just intentional about making sure that the rhythms and the routines and the flavor, I mean the gospel's, the gospel, but the flavor of the content that you offer, that it rhymes so that parents what what they're getting can be overflowing into the lives of their kids.

[00:46:10] John Poitevent: I think that, uh, that childcare piece is really important and I know people are gonna say, well, there's safe environment and all of that, and that's, that's all true. But you know, if we have a lot of single parents. Yes. A lot of people that when we don't offer something like that, we're either asking them to spend a significant amount of money to participate in hiring someone.

Yeah. Which is often not feasible for them. . Or we're kind of saying, Hey, you're not important to us, and um . There's so many ways to handle that. I've even seen parishes. Offer vouchers or a, some sort of stipend towards childcare in the home. So. 

[00:46:51] Jim Jansen: Yes, absolutely. 

[00:46:52] John Poitevent: We, we can't do childcare, but if you'd like to participate in this six week, uh, or whatever, alpha, we'd love to contribute $20 a night to your childcare.

And people go, well, that's a lot of money. It's an investment in, oh yeah. What if there's a conversion experience in that person's life? It was, so we spent a hundred dollars or whatever. Right? 

[00:47:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, there's so many creative ways you can do this. I mean, so again, it, it does really matter to make a financial investment or to make an organizational investment to pool, you know, people who are willing to offer childcare.

But honestly, the biggest thing is people just need to be seen. And when you, when you like, show young parents that you've thought about childcare, they're like, oh, wow. They get me, they see me or the single mom. Uh, you know, one of the things, we talked about this threshold game, and we've got various versions of it, but we have one that's designed for religious ed and Catholic schools and it's focused on kind of millennial parents.

'cause that's where we find millennials right now coming to church. They send their kids to re and to our schools. And, and so you go through these and one of the stories is, is of a, one of the characters is a single mom who would love, she's like, the only way I I make it through life day in, day out is because of my faith.

I would love to come to a faith enrichment event at the parish, but I can't, I don't have any childcare. I don't have any help. And, you know, we play the game so that people can begin to see and, and recognize again. They're like, oh wow. There's a, there's a need out here and there's a variety of ways we can meet it.

We can meet it. And even an awkward attempt to meet it is usually received as an act of, of love and opens people up to, to want to come. 

[00:48:37] John Poitevent: It does, it is makes people feel seen and cared about. . And that is an act of love that that connects with people. So often we set out all these things for them to do, but we don't meet them where they're at and help make, make it possible.

Like you said, it needs to be clear, it needs to be easy and likely, uh, registration needs to be clear and easy. It shouldn't feel like they're on a government website trying to navigate. 

[00:49:04] Jim Jansen: Yeah. If your parish feels like the DMV something is very wrong. Yeah. 

[00:49:08] John Poitevent: Hey, I want to kind of rapid fire, answer some of these questions we've got and throw some your way.

Let's go. Uh, the last one, is there a Catholic version of Alpha? I attended a non-denominational church and it was very anti-Catholic. Alpha is uh, there is Alpha for Catholics or Alpha in a Catholic context? Yes. I mean, about a third of the speakers in the Alpha videos are Catholic. I've hosted it, but Christ Life is a more Catholic centric alpha.

It's three stages. I like that. It does, it, it kind of aligns with your path a little more. . It has a more full journey for people. That's my quick response on that. Check out Christ Life, but also . Google, uh, alpha in a Catholic context, we use the revived training sessions listed on, formed with, uh, Tim Gli Kowski and Julian Stan. Yes. They're great. 

[00:49:59] Jim Jansen: Great stuff. Great stuff. 

[00:50:00] John Poitevent: And they're free. 

[00:50:00] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:50:01] John Poitevent: And you can also just go to revive parishes and access those directly there. I want to, uh, address one thing we talked about on your podcast. Bridget says, how do I create opportunities in my parish for evangelization when everyone seems so busy with sports and other extracurricular activities?

Do you remember talking about this? 

[00:50:19] Jim Jansen: I love this. Yeah. I love the way you handle this question. Tell me if I get it right. 'cause I'm trying to like, you know, channel John's wisdom on this, but like, I think that we have to ask ourselves a question. What is it about these select sports teams and these activities that are attractive?

And, and I, I, I can tell you like that question, the Lord was really kind to me. I, despite my own and, and you know, athletic limitations, uh, my kids are actually pretty good. One of my kids played select soccer, and I have to, I have to confess, I was kind of judgy about people's priorities and why would a family do that?

And I'm sitting there on the sideline. I'm having the best time. I'm watching my kid and I'm having amazing conversations with other parents, and I felt like I got invited into this family. And it's a family of people who are like, they love my kid, they're cheering for my kid. You know, they might, they're paying more attention to my kids, you know, like athletic success than I am.

And it was just, it was beautiful. I was like, wow, I get it. And sad to say that that is, that that was a strong contrast to some of my experiences in parish life, where despite being a, you know, 13 out of 10 on the extroversion scale, I couldn't seem to make a friend. I couldn't seem to connect with anybody.

I, I felt invisible there and I felt very seen in this athletic experience. So I think, I think we have to turn it on his head and say, wait, what is it about being seen and cared for and feeling a part of something that makes this attractive? And I would say, don't fight that. Create a Trojan horse, find some parents who are already disciples and equip them to be missionaries on the sidelines to the other parents.

That's, that I think is really fun. We've seen a couple of places do that where people are like, yeah, the select soccer team is our mission field and our son's in on the, on the gig. And the little kids are in on the gig and mom and dad are having conversations on the sideline. I think there's a potential there that we don't see because we're understandably hurt and frustrated by our, our inability to engage people.

And I think with a little bit more reflection, we can start to find an opportunity there that we've been missing. 

[00:52:36] John Poitevent: Yeah, I think it starts with empathy. It starts with asking yourself. Yes. Uh, I even asked a, a group this dangerous question, what are those organizations doing better than you? And that really offended some people, but 

.

When I asked you. What happens when you're in the stands of your kid's soccer game for three hours or however long? It's not three hours, but let's say, yeah, if it's a swimming meet, you're there all day, but 

[00:53:04] Jim Jansen: Oh, for sure. Yeah. 

[00:53:05] John Poitevent: Uh, what, what do parents talk about up there? 

[00:53:07] Jim Jansen: Oh, man. They, they talk about life, and admittedly, it's sometimes superficial, but with just a little bit of care and concern.

People's deeper desires, fears, concern, though, things come out and if you're attentive to that, you can get into a substantial conversation. And it's, again, it's like, it's not that hard to, when you're sitting on the sidelines for, for three hours, uh, to develop a real friendship that can lead again, if your parish has a clear path and you have someplace to, to bring them, that friendship can, can turn into a, a place of conversion that honestly, we're not gonna find 'em any other way unless we go to them on the sidelines. 

[00:53:49] John Poitevent: And those parents are accompanying each other in. Yes. How are you filling out your kids' college essay? You know? Oh yeah. They're having important conversations and so, oh yeah. I think first let's approach it with empathy. Let's consider what's happening there and are we offering opportunities for that age group to build meaningful relationships on their terms, not on ours.

Like, so, yes. The, the second question is, even when we host events and invite people, they don't show up. So my question would be, are you creating events that you think are meaningful to them or are you really sourcing what their needs are? And maybe thinking about creative ways that you could meet them in those places.

So one thing that, uh, sports teams aren't offering them is a free workshop on how to navigate social media and smartphones with your pre-teen. . 

[00:54:43] Jim Jansen: Yep. 

[00:54:43] John Poitevent: Or. How should I be concerned about AI as a parent or even creating, uh . Maybe you have a, a educator that could help parents navigate college applications or, or those essay.

Absolutely. What other creative ways have you seen people to connect with that age group and that demographic? 

[00:55:05] Jim Jansen: I mean, you know, honestly, a, a lot of it just goes back to the empathy and the listening. You know, so we, you know, my team and I, again, this is part of what we live and breathe, uh, here at the Archdiocese, we're, we're doing a whole workshop on engaging, uh, school parents because it is a source of frustration and confusion, and honestly, the first step is to listen to them.

We did a big survey and so we've got, you know, data coming out in kind of fun family feud style, but what we think they want and what they actually want often is just subtly different. So sometimes it's dramatically different. I mean, just a, just a quick, for instance, we asked just like, you know, what would you do if you had just a little bit more time?

And they're like, I'd sleep, I'd have a friend. I'd like you, like, like parents are tired and overwhelmed and lonely and, and we don't understand. And, and we miss that sometimes our best, kind of, our best efforts to try and engage them end up sounding like another obligation or another thing. And, and if, and if we can position ourselves as allies and as friends and as relief and respite as, as somebody that's gonna help them connect with their kids.

'cause that's the thing, when, when you're running crazy with all these activities, you're not actually deeply connecting with your kids oftentimes. And if you can promise that, if you can deliver that, that's what people want. That's what parents want. But we have to listen a little bit deeper. In order to get to the point where we can recognize, um, how to connect with them.

[00:56:43] John Poitevent: I love that last one you said, uh, who is teaching parents how to have meaningful conversations with their kids? They probably didn't learn it from their parents. And what a, how well positioned are we? You know, maybe there's a, a, a counselor or a therapist in your parish that might be willing to host a workshop on having meaningful conversations with your kids.

I can see things like that. And again, like you said, listening, asking them what their needs are and not just putting them in things that we think would be a good fit. . 'cause they worked for us 30 years ago when we were their age. Well, hey Jim, I hate it, but we're coming to the end of our time here.

Yeah. And I just wanna, uh, end with you. I wanna leave it to you. You work with parishes all the time. You encourage them, you coach them. Would you just leave us with an encouraging word for the folks that are listening today that really want to help people encounter Christ and grow in their relationship with him?

[00:57:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Two things. One is kind of where, where I began, I, I talked about my, my wife who's a, you know, a journalist. This book is, is kind of an act of journalism. And what I mean by that is I just took dozens of stories of parishes and movements within the church that are finding life and, and I translated what they were doing into a more kind of universal accessible way that everybody could kind of access it and translate it to their own circumstances.

So there's just. Dozens and dozens and dozens of parishes that have experienced dramatic turnarounds with this. So this isn't just a theory, this is just a kind of a journalistic synthesis of what's actually working. The other thing is, uh, this is hard. It's a long endeavor. All of parish renewal is, I mean, I think all of the Christian life is, but you know, we're, we're not too far away from the Easter season, the ascension where, you know, Jesus gives the Great Commission.

And a couple years ago, I really got hit that at the place where Jesus says, go and make disciples, where he gives kind of the clearest command to the church to evangelize. It's in that context that he says, and I will be with you always until the end of the age. And, and I feel like, of course, he's with us everywhere all the time.

You know, the spirit dwells with, uh, you know, with us. And, and of course he's present in the Eucharist. But the original context where it's in the context of the mission to make disciples, which for many of us can feel foreign or intimidating, that is right where Jesus promises to be with us. And I think that's a special thing to cling to.

Whether you're halfway through the journey and you're getting kind of tired, or you're just about to get started, he's gonna be with you. 

[00:59:35] John Poitevent: I, I think that's the best place for us to end and the best thing for us to remember as we leave this. 

[00:59:40] Jim Jansen: Amen. 

[00:59:41] John Poitevent: If that is not enough to do the mission, I don't know what is. So thank you, Jim. It's been great. Thank you, John. Talk to you once again and, uh, hope likewise. Have you, have you join us again sometime. 

[00:59:51] Jim Jansen: Awesome. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.