[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey, everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. Today I sit down with Father Gary Kastl, who is the vicar general for the Diocese of Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we talk about the Diocese of Oklahoma's efforts to come alongside parishes to help them make disciples. We talk a lot about his convictions and his experience as a pastor, the type of support that he wanted and wished, he had had from the chancery. We talk about hard questions. Really figuring out the spiritual ROI. What is the spiritual return on investment from the labor and the resources? We talk about the difference between the role that a parish can play and a diocese can play, and how the two should be working together. It's a real cool peek behind the scenes of what it's like to serve at the diocesan level. I think you're gonna like it. Take a listen. 

All right, Father Gary Kastl welcome to the EquipCast. How you doing today?

[00:01:28] Fr. Kastl: Thank you, Jim. I'm doing great from here in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

[00:01:32] Jim Jansen: Tulsa, Oklahoma. Did you grow up as like a Sooner fan I know you went to OSU, but did you have that like Nebraska, Oklahoma tension thing?

[00:01:41] Fr. Kastl: Well, there's great tension between the Sooners and the Cowboys. And so I grew up in Perkins, Oklahoma, which was eight miles south of Stillwater where OSU is, and so definitely bleed orange.

[00:01:51] Jim Jansen: Okay, so you got the inside rivalry. There used to be like a big, Nebraska-Oklahoma--

[00:01:55] Fr. Kastl: Yeah, there still is. 

[00:01:56] Jim Jansen: But it's been a minute since Nebraska was competitive with Oklahoma.

[00:02:00] Fr. Kastl: Yeah, the big competition in between the Sooners and the Cowboys, we call it Bedlam. 

[00:02:05] Jim Jansen: Oh, yeah. No, it was classic. Even as a non-Oklahoman I knew it was a big deal. Okay. Father give people who are you? What's your story? How'd you meet Jesus? How'd you feel the call into the Lord's service?

[00:02:17] Fr. Kastl: I jokingly say I'm just a boy from Perkins. Perkins, Oklahoma is a very rural part of our state and I would say predominantly non-Catholic. And so, my parents baptized me as a child, so I would say that's obviously when my first encounter with our Lord began.

But unfortunately, my parents divorced when I was four years old and my faith life wobbled a bit. And there was not a lot of activity towards the Catholic Church. And so as I moved into my formative years, I spent many of Sundays with my mom in Evangelical Christian churches.

And I still look back on when did I meet the Lord for the first time? And I actually think it was at a Protestant summer church camp. We were laying out under the stars, looking up at the dark sky with bright, shiny stars coming down upon us, no light pollution to dilute the magnificence of the sky and feeling very small but feeling deeply loved.

Probably, I would say fifth grade or so. And that evening they issued an altar call for us to accept Jesus into our lives, and I went. And I went up very confidently having this deep interior sense, of being small but being loved and moved to bring Christ intentionally into my life.

I remember going to the payphone and calling my mom and telling her and just crying. I really think from that moment on even though would wobble between the Catholic Church and different Protestant denominations, I've always had some like level of awareness of God's presence in my life and somewhat of a fascination about the spiritual life.

An awareness particularly of God's presence in nature and the beauty of nature, I think, which was given to me very much by my Grandma Kastl who was a deep Catholic woman of faith who also found peace in nature.

[00:03:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I'm struck by how important just the glory of creation was in that. Reminds me a little bit, my wife had a similar Kim. She was at like the non-Catholic version Christian summer camp. And yeah, it was just, it was the beauty, it was the witness of good counselors, and she gave her heart to Jesus, and later on really embraced her Catholic faith. But it was a moment for her that unfolded more fully later, but it never went away for her. So I hear some, some echoes of that story.

Okay. You're a priest now. Talk a little bit about just your vocational call.

[00:04:35] Fr. Kastl: Yeah so I mentioned I was wobbling in my elementary, middle school years and When I came into high school, my grandmother Kastl who I mentioned, a very strong Catholic woman, and she and I had a very close relationship and I always admired her groundedness and what was always in my mind, a very integrated faith.

And it had a certain level of magnanimity. She was magnetic. All of us wanted to be with her. We were drawn to her. She was engaged with us, and I would really say she discipled me back, into Roman Catholicism. And my first step back, was selfishly alone time with grandma.

We would go to the 8:00 Mass on Sunday mornings, we would go eat Braum's biscuits and sausage and hash browns, and we would go to IGA and go grocery shopping, and then we would go home and put the groceries away and then hang out for a little bit before she would take me home. And so I treasured that time with her.

And so in my mind that was free time with grandma. But what happened, again, in that space, was my own kind of rediscovering of my relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church, particularly in the Eucharist. But I would also say through a growing kind of Marian devotion within my family.

My grandmother, of course and my aunt and uncle and another aunt and a cousin all started praying the rosary consistently together during that time. We went to the Marian Conference in Wichita. And so I would say through Our Lady's nudge and my grandmother's nudge there was this kind of emerging rediscovery of my spirituality within the context of the Catholic Church.

And I think that really began the seedbed, for the Lord to work and to call me to be a priest. And so I'd say by the time I got to my junior, senior year of high school the sense of the call began to be palpable, in my prayer. I'd liken it to finding this little seed that was planted deep within myself that I couldn't quite get rid of.

When I would make a lot of noise and distract myself, I wasn't aware of it. But as soon as I quieted down and began to pray, I was aware of this kind of interior nudge, and so, , time went on, I finished high school went on to Oklahoma State University had my plans in place to potentially go either into pre-med or into sports medicine or counseling somewhere in those different career paths, get married, have a large family, and live my life.

And as hard as I pushed in that direction, that little seed that was within me never left. And so finally, I got to a point where, ... It was actually New Year's Eve of 1999. You can tell how much of a- of a dork I was that I was home praying going into 2000, but it was that evening that I said, "God if you put me in touch with - a young priest, newly ordained, that can convince me it's worth giving up your life for I'll consider going."

And so AOL dial-up I found the diocesan webpage and the cathedral webpage, and this young priest, Father Matt Gerlach, these big red glasses, and it said, "Ask a priest a question." I clicked, emailed him, more or less said, "Thinking about priesthood, not convinced. Tell me if you're happy." And he invited me to come to Tulsa, which was a big drive for a boy from Perkins--

[00:07:36] Jim Jansen: Wait, wait, but that's such a great question. Tell me if you're happy.

[00:07:40] Fr. Kastl: Tell me if you're happy.

[00:07:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh my gosh.

[00:07:42] Fr. Kastl: Yeah, and so I drove over. I spent the morning and had lunch with him, and got in my car, and I said God, you won, I lost." And asked for the application to the seminary. And, I went through all the interview process, and I never told my family what I was doing because I didn't want the pressure.

I didn't want my grandmother saying, "You should." I didn't want other mem- family, "No, you shouldn't." So I got it all done, and then I launched it on them that I was a seminary for the Diocese of Tulsa. And so but, so as time went on, I'm a bit of a self-reliant human, and I was still skeptical that I was called to be a priest. But I felt that I was at a juncture where I had to do something to put myself into an environment to figure it out. And so every year, as the years went by, I would tell myself in March, April, "This is it. They're not gonna want me, and I'm not gonna wanna continue on."

And I could never kick that interior call, and they always advanced me. And so I was ordained a priest for the Diocese of Tulsa. And the fun part of that story, just to wrap this up quickly, my grandmother, who was such a huge part of discipling me in that journey was at the ordination and was just elated.

And four or five days later, I went home, and we had mass at her kitchen table. We had breakfast, and she said, "I asked the Lord to allow me to see you be ordained, and you're ordained, and now you have to accept if I die." I'm like, "Okay." She and I talked often about her death, and she was out working in the yard three days later and just died of a heart attack face first into the dirt.

And she was my first funeral as a priest, and so as one who shepherded me along the journey she was the first soul that I had the privilege of commending back into the hands of God as a priest in the funeral rite. God writes with crooked lines, and as hard as that was it was also a profound gift for me to be able to give her back to God in thanksgiving for what she did for us.

[00:09:37] Jim Jansen: Man, did she have an inkling?

[00:09:38] Fr. Kastl: Oh, absolutely. She was a journaler. She was a woman, again, who started every morning reading the scriptures and then writing about us in regards to what the scriptures are saying to her. But that day, at the end of the journal, she had made some comment about feeling weary and wondering, and the last word that she wrote in her journal was "and," and it stopped.

And then she went out to work on the yard, and she never came back in. And so I think there was an intuition she was having that something was not right.

[00:10:08] Jim Jansen: Wow. And enough to give you some preparation.

[00:10:13] Fr. Kastl: Yeah. Yeah

[00:10:15] Jim Jansen: Wow.

[00:10:17] Fr. Kastl: She was a woman who lived on the earth. She had her little house, and she had 10 acres, and she would play out on the grass. And she used to tell me, "Honey, when I die, I want the buzzards to eat me and the worms to eat my eyes." And she died , and she was in the dirt for 24 hours before we found her, and it rained on her that night.

So she literally got her wish for the creepy crawlies. When I got the phone call, I got there. The sun had just gone down. It was a full moon, and the whole family circled her body and sang the Salve Regina under the moonlight. And just, it could not have been more perfect in regards to how she would've wanted to go out of this life.

[00:10:53] Jim Jansen: That is really beautiful. My grandmother she just recently passed away, and she's very much like just a woman of the earth, farmer's wife and they let the land help make them. And it was a daily encounter with the Lord for them.

[00:11:07] Fr. Kastl: The root word of humility, had to do with dirt, and think those who, again, had their hands in the dirt, who earned their living from the dirt, who relied upon the dirt, there was a certain, grit, and just simplicity and realness that comes from that way of life.

[00:11:24] Jim Jansen: There's something healthy in healing. As I've cultivated apples and pears and even some peaches, which believe it or not, there are some peach varieties that grow in Nebraska. And there's something about the earthiness of it and the seasonal work of it that is very healing and restorative 'cause I can't control it. I can tend, I can be a steward, but I can't like rush things. I can't, fail to do the right thing at the right time and then try and "Oh gosh, I forgot to plant. I guess I better cram." It's like, nope. There's a season and there's something that I get to participate in, but it is bigger than me.

[00:12:00] Fr. Kastl: Absolutely.

[00:12:01] Jim Jansen: Thank you for sharing so personally.

We both spent a lot of our kind of professional time, service to the church, in the chancery. Working, at the service of our bishops. And it's a, very small percentage of us that get that privilege. There's some unique gifts that go with that. This could be maybe a little bit niche-y for some people-- 'Cause we're gonna talk about , how do you make the service of the church from the chancery, those of us who work in diocesan roles more fruitful? I think this conversation matters for everybody who's listening, because before we were even recording, you talked about how this matters to you because it's at the service of the gospel. Can you share a little bit of that before we get started?

[00:12:46] Fr. Kastl: When we think about, why does the church exist, right? Our bishop here in the Diocese of Tulsa put out a pastoral letter a couple of years ago, and, Jesus as Lord is the name of the pastoral letter, and I think he so beautifully articulated in that letter, which has been obviously at the center of my own attention the last 19 years as a priest, is that the purpose of the church is to make Jesus known, period.

And I think sometimes we can take our eye off of that purpose. We are, to make Jesus known until he comes again. We are to make Jesus known through the faithful celebration of the sacraments, through our ministry to the poor, all of the different ways in which the Church carries out, the way in which we do a Catholic education, our Catholic hospitals, our Catholic charities, like all of these different institutions, are oriented towards this end, which is to make Jesus Christ known.

And I think the reality is the Church is made up of humans. Organizations are made up of humans. Organizations are made up of processes, structures and budgets and human error, and it is very easy when you're dealing with organizational leadership that has a particular end in mind to get off course a bit, and

[00:13:55] Jim Jansen: Yeah

[00:13:56] Fr. Kastl: So for me, I always have that question, is this activity, is this work, is this office, is this budget line doing what the Church is meant to do to make Jesus known, to advance the gospel? And if it's not, then we need to have the humility to take a look at it and to be willing to make adjustments in order to get back on the right course.

[00:14:17] Jim Jansen: 'Cause even if we managed to somehow get every human being at this moment into a relationship with Jesus and his church, we would immediately need to begin the renewal process again because there's a whole new set of humanity coming.

The church needs to be refounded every generation. Maybe founding isn't the right word, but we need to renew ourselves every generation 'cause we have another generation to evangelize, and we can't work ahead.

We can't go get the people that have already died, and we can't get the generation yet to come. We can only care for and introduce people to Jesus from this generation. 

[00:14:58] Fr. Kastl: Yeah, absolutely. So the church is both human and divine, right? That the divine part is the animating force. The human side is us, m- men and women who are working in the vineyard, modern-day disciples, so I don't think we can be afraid to apply certain leadership principles to the work of the church that acknowledges that unless you're constantly casting vision with a deep awareness of the context in which you're ministering in, and how do you make the necessary adjustments in this context to be at the

To bring your craft forward in the best way that you can, which ours is evangelization. Then again, you get one or two coordinates off, and you go 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 years down the road, and you've missed a whole generation of people that were not evangelized and catechized because we're still trying to do things the same way we did before, when it may have worked perfectly fine.

It's not saying the past is all bad, it's just saying, do we have the ability to read the signs of the times in and through the gift and the power of the Holy Spirit, giving us wisdom and understanding and humility, to make those adjustments to be at the best of our craft in this moment in which the Church is evangelizing and make Christ known.

So it's never done, right? This casting the vision, this assessing effectiveness, it's never done. It's, ever ancient, ever new, right? It's this constant work.

[00:16:24] Jim Jansen: And I think sometimes there can be... , I mean, I've fallen vic-victim to it, a kind of a a chronological snobbery looking, you know, looking to the past. But what was fruitful in the past, even though it may not be continuing to be as fruitful as it once was, doesn't mean that it wasn't fruitful then. To look back and to try and judge, pastoral methods that aren't as fruitful now doesn't mean that they weren't fruitful then.

We don't have the kind of the luxury of looking back and judging, and we don't have the luxury of just sticking with the status quo because it did work at one point. Father, we're already here, but can you just lay out the context of where you would say the state of diocesan support and the challenge of parish renewal?

Parish renewal is more of a kind of a hot topic, in the Church today. Diocesan renewal less as much, but I think we would both say they go together. How would you describe the overall landscape now?

[00:17:18] Fr. Kastl: People oftentimes say, are you worried?" Or, Are you pessimistic or optimistic?" And I would say I'm the most optimistic that I have been in my whole priesthood about, I think, what's happening in this movement of renewal. I think there's a new uh, new springtime.

I do think that there is a strong desire among number one, the lay faithful to be a part of this renewal. And again, look at the work that you're doing, look at the work that other, lay apostolates that have been initiated by the lay faithful in service to priests and in service to the church. Look at how they have come alongside to help with parish renewal. We are availed now with more resources and new ideas and new approaches than we probably have in a long time the life of the church.

But you then factor in the human condition. The church is very continuation-oriented in her thinking. We think in centuries, not weeks or months or years. And so there's a strong kind of institutional muscle reflex that is continuation-oriented.

And many of us are brought up in that, and so you have this tension between every resource under the sun to help with parish renewal, diocesan renewal but it's hard to break out of that which we have always done. And I think sometimes there also can be a misaligned mantra particularly at the parish level, maybe among even priests, I would include myself in this at some point along my journey that we're waiting for somebody to tell us what to do.

We're waiting for bishops to tell us what to do, and we can blame that which is upstream from us for that which we are not doing in our own right. And one of the things that I learned quickly as a priest to look to the bishop or to look to the chancery or to look to some structure outside of the parish to give me the cue on what to do next as it relates to parish revival and evangelization is a complete farce. I've always known my bishop has my back. I've always, experienced great support from my bishops. But I also recognize that I am father, right? I am the pastor, I am the guardian, I am the tender, of this place, of these people of the staff, of these programs, and it really is, the onus is on me, to bring together people, to scan our environment, to really ask the Holy Spirit what we're being called to do in this moment.

And always doing it within, the confines of the tradition and the magisterium of the church. But there's so much autonomy that we have at the parish level to do renewal that's not dependent upon diocesan initiatives that are getting pushed our direction, and we can't get caught in that trap of thinking of, "I'm waiting until I'm told what to do to have parish renewal," versus use the God-given intelligence and spiritual zeal that's in your belly to drive that effectiveness forward.

[00:20:08] Jim Jansen: I'm thinking about some of the work of Stephen Ambrose as he talked about the difference in how effective some of the American troops were on the ground because they showed an initiative that was very uncharacteristic compared to the Nazis or the Japanese who actually in many instances, were far better equipped in terms of the machinery and the tools of the trade of warfare.

They were better equipped, but they didn't take initiative. And there is something about "You know what? I'm the pastor and I have this grace of office, and I'm gonna study, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna call on the Spirit, and I'm gonna go after this." 

[00:20:48] Fr. Kastl: I love how you use the image, the grace of office, and I would, liken the same thing to a father has a grace of office, of his household . And so for me, understanding spiritual fatherhood and what comes with that, the responsibilities that come with that, has really put fire in my belly to take the initiative that like if I don't work I can't feed my kids.

If I don't spend time with them I can't, show care and nurture. If I don't like take a brave step, I can't teach courage, and so as I think about spiritual fatherhood and priests and that graced office and the responsibility to take initiative that comes from that, me that, that's really at the heart of parish renewal is like is a priest convicted?

If he's feeling ill-equipped, like equip yourself with the talented people that are in the pews around you. Pray for insight, pray for courage, and take a step forward in a direction that is going to move the needle in regards to a greater vibrancy in his care.

[00:21:47] Jim Jansen: 'Cause the Lord always meets us in that. The odds that we're gonna take the perfect step that's paralyzing. But we're like, all right. And again, it's it's kinda trite, but the Lord can't steer a parked car. So when we take a step forward, He tends to meet us, and He adjusts our course.

Father, I wanna give you a chance to talk a little bit about the shifts that you all have made at the diocese. So from the chancery, serving parishes. Okay, individual pastor I'm gonna step out in courage. I'm gonna do this, but I still would like some help from the chancery." You made some pretty significant shifts. What inspired those?

[00:22:23] Fr. Kastl: I would say what has inspired my participation, in the shifts that we have made in the chancery has been my own experience of being a parish priest in parishes for the last 17 years. Having worked through that mindset of I'm waiting, right?

And then recognizing that I don't have to wait. I can look at the resources that are out there in front of me, use those resources, and work towards creating parish vibrancy independent of however I perceive the vibrancy of the chancery offices of the diocese being. That wasn't gonna be a hindrance.

But step two is to say, "Okay I'm grinding it out here at the parish level. We're doing great things as it relates to evangelization, catechesis, OCIA numbers," all the metrics that you would identify as vibrancy while recognizing I was sending money into the diocese, right? And I always kind of scratched my head and asked "How is that entity helping my entity?"

[00:23:15] Jim Jansen: You're like, "I could use it." 

[00:23:16] Fr. Kastl: I could use that $25,000, $30,000.

[00:23:19] Jim Jansen: Yeah. You're like, "I've got plans for that. 

[00:23:21] Fr. Kastl: And so I would say I was cynical at times about the chancery, quote unquote, the dark hole however you want to kind of name , Big Brother, 

[00:23:30] Jim Jansen: the Death Star--

[00:23:31] Fr. Kastl: Yeah. So again, I, I, as a pastor love to throw mud upstream, and now I find myself sitting upstream catching the mud, right? And so I think for me, the question was, like do I keep perpetuating that which I found to be unhelpful or is there a different way, and so the diocese did go through a strategic planning process identified priorities and goals, for the next three years, and my own work in leadership training and formation through Catholic Leadership Institute I'm also convicted that the fourth discipline of organizational leadership is how you change the structure of the organization to allow you to implement the plan that was envisioned.

And so I would say we had the plan and then we started asking questions about structure looking at our bottom line and our budget of what are we spending on the ministry side of it, which was, outward facing ministry that we were doing that was oftentimes disconnected from the ministry that was happening at the parishes and/or the support that the parishes were needing to do ministry.

[00:24:31] Jim Jansen: I wanna dig into that. So you're saying outward-facing ministry. Can you give a couple of examples?

[00:24:36] Fr. Kastl: Yeah, so again, we would have offices for everything, Office of Marriage and Family, Office of Youth and Young Adults Marriage and Family. And they were providing services from the chancery out and then trying to advertise in all the parishes to draw people in to a central location.

And so as you start filtering those programs, you have to ask yourself the question, what can parishes do and what really rightfully belongs in a parish versus a supplementary support system coming from the chancery that's disengaged maybe from what the parishes really need or they can do. Where is there duplication of the efforts of the diocese?

[00:25:12] Jim Jansen: 'Cause I think it's common in a fair number of dioceses and chanceries to say, "Okay, we will prepare young couples for marriage. And then, "Hey, parishes send your people." "We will evangelize young people." And, "We're gonna comfort the grieving."

And all those things I think are, they're well-meaning. The works of mercy, yay. But also, is that our job or is that the parish's job? Even if we do an A-plus job, if they don't connect to their local parish, did we actually do something that's gonna be impactful not just three days after we run the retreat, but three weeks, three years, 30 years later?

And we, talked about this. We went through a similar kinda call to conversion. We're like, "Oh man, everybody loves this retreat. Is it actually helping couples have more successful marriages?" And we're like, "Probably not, because they're not actually connecting to their pastor and their faith community and older couples in their parish, and et cetera, et cetera."

That's just one example. 

[00:26:14] Fr. Kastl: Well, again if we can layer in here a corporate term that people don't like to use in church world and in ecclesial world is you have to ask the question, what's the ROI, right?

[00:26:23] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Return on investment.

[00:26:25] Fr. Kastl: Your return on your investment. And the reason I think that's a fair way of looking at this question is every penny that is used in the life of a church is the widow's mite. It's somebody's sweat. It's somebody's offering. It's someone's sacrifice that they're giving with the presumption that widow's mite, is doing the work of the church, which is to make Jesus known, right? And so just because things feel good, and we have always done them, if you ask what is the ROI, how is it leading people deeper into relationship with Jesus? How is it transforming marriages? How is it transforming families? How is it making our schools more Catholic to do the work that they're called to do? Is it or isn't it, like, giving us a return on our investment, which, again, is the work of the church. And if it's not, we have a fiscal responsibility also to make those necessary adjustments , to be good stewards of the widow's mite.

And that's also something that puts fire in my belly as well, is every dollar that we spend, we better be able to be accountable for it , in how it's moving that needle towards evangelism.

[00:27:31] Jim Jansen: I love that kind of like the spiritual ROI. Okay, is it actually making a difference? Is it advancing the gospel? That is different than how many people showed up. That's different than did they like it when they showed up. Is it making disciples? Is it maturing disciples? And some of those things, it's like, okay, a lot of, the spiritual fruit or the return, the R, those things are somewhat invisible. But you can tell. I'm not saying they're easy to measure, but I think there are ways where we can start to say, "Eh, this is not actually bearing the lasting fruit."

'Cause the couples came, they loved the retreat. Again, I'm back on the marriage prep example. They came to the retreat, we had 100 couples. They loved the retreat, nine out of 10, 10 out of 10 for the evals. But did it change their marriage? Did they get connected to the faith community that's gonna help sustain them in their life as a married couple?

And the first two for us, the answers were yes, and then the last one was like, not so much. And we realized, we made like this hard choice. We were like, "You know what? A seven out of 10 retreat run at the parish where we actually supported them to run this retreat, where they could actually accompany them in their married life, for the next 30 years," that was way more important than a really great moment that would evaporate 'cause no one from their community was there.

[00:29:01] Fr. Kastl: I think what you're saying ties into a lot of the best practices that we're observing in things that are effective, and it goes back to spiritual accompaniment, right? Jesus sent them out two by two. They always did things in community, and that's why we have parishes.

It's belonging to an intentional community where you're committing to grow in discipleship with each other. Being accompanied by your pastor, being accompanied by your fellow married couples, intergenerational living. All of those things are important. So when we talk about building, vibrant faith communities or having renewal within parishes we have to stay out of the trap that more is better versus deeper is better, and I think sometimes it's less , and it's deep and it's for the long haul.

That really becomes a discipline, within a parish, to be able to say "Yes, that's fun. Yes, that may have its place, in certain seasons of the parish," but just because it brings in a lot of people and it's a rah-rah event does not necessarily mean that it's producing the fruit that we're hoping it will produce in regards to the deeper interior transformation of our people. And so I think when you start asking what are some of the things we can observe in the life of a parish is your mass attendance going up? Are your confession lines getting longer? Are the number of people going to adoration increasing?

Are the number of people in your Bible studies going up? Those deeper expressions of a spiritual movement within the soul of the faithful that manifests itself in hungering for a greater encounter and a deeper encounter with the Lord.

[00:30:32] Jim Jansen: And I would say, and new people coming into the parish. I love all those measurements. Not just people who are like, "Oh yeah, we moved into the neighborhood 'cause there's a new housing development." But People who are coming, they're entering into the church OCIA or they're registering because the life of the individual disciples in the community is so attractive that people are coming. In a word, parishes should be growing.

[00:30:57] Fr. Kastl: Yeah, and not just growing with people moving from across town to come to your parish, but actually making new Catholics.

[00:31:03] Jim Jansen: New Catholics like in your mission field. Yeah, 'cause we know, you can call them different things. You can call them kind of a destination parish or kind of boutique parishes, but sometimes there's a particular thing, great preaching, music, maybe a style of liturgy, whatever, that draws people from all over, and that's fine.

But are you making disciples in your neighborhood, I come back to the Louisiana parish. It's like literally they call their counties parishes 'cause it was so shaped by this kind of geographic Catholic sensibility that, hey, we have responsibility for souls in this area, from 72nd to 110th and from Elm to Maple Street. , Those are our souls.

[00:31:47] Fr. Kastl: Your point of OCIA, to me, that is my favorite metric to look at. Is this an evangelizing community that can be seen and measured by the number of people that are initiated into full communion on a yearly basis? And because once you get that evangelizing impulse going within the life of a community those numbers swell, and because everybody sees it as a responsibility, to share what they have found and to bring them to come and see, again, as the scriptures say and you begin to see those numbers. And I think it's off-putting to some people to talk metrics, in the spiritual life. But I think if you use them appropriately, like data is helpful to validate are you or are you not doing the basic work of the church that then yields a great harvest? 

[00:32:31] Jim Jansen: At least it's a starting point, right? You can have a low heart rate 'cause you're sick or 'cause you're a marathoner. But let's start by looking at heart rate and blood pressure and some of those things, and then let's have a conversation. I know a parish that a lot of the members of their community are poorly catechized.

In this parish's case, it's because the parish has been wildly successful at actually evangelizing unchurched people. And so , those individuals come in with I wouldn't say a deficit, they just don't come in with the benefit of a Christian or Catholic worldview. And so this parish has more work to do to build those folks up.

So the kind of gaps in Catholic worldview and in, catechetical foundations for these individuals, that's just a starting point that actually reveals they've just been really successful at actually evangelizing those who are far away, not simply welcoming, those who've been raised Christian or Catholic.

[00:33:33] Fr. Kastl: Right.

[00:33:34] Jim Jansen: Father, let's pause right here for a quick break to highlight a tool built for the leaders listening today. Take a listen.

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Let's get back to the conversation.

Father, I wanna go back to something. We used the A word, accompaniment. How do you do accompaniment in a chancery diocesan role? 'Cause sometimes there's just this unavoidable compliance responsibility, some offices more than others, some roles more than other. It's a central location, so it's hard to be present. How did you all shift to try and live out this ideal of actually accompanying parish leaders through the messy work of parish renewal?

[00:34:44] Fr. Kastl: Yes, I think we were all convicted that the old model didn't work, and, just from my work with Catholic Leadership Institute and many conversations I had with them always searching for a different model, and had in my head, some sort of decentralized approach to the ministry side of the chancery, because the reality is we have to have certain functions that manage the human capital. You have to have insurance, you have to have risk, you have to have archives, There's these things that, you have to have a tribunal. There are certain things you just have to run the organization of the diocese and all of its entities.

But the ministry arm particularly was an area that we really believed could be reimagined. And so, , as we were going through our own internal discernment and conversation, we found you and the work that you were doing in Omaha and the Clear Path, which we quickly all kind of glommed onto as a tried and true model that we were willing to give it a shot, and we decided to get rid of all of the offices, quote unquote, as I mentioned earlier and to create a parish support team. And it's a team of individuals who have collectively different kind of expertise in marriage and family, youth ministry all the different things that you would hope to see, you know sacramental preparation, restored order family catechesis.

So none of them are working specifically in those areas, but rather they're going out to pastors and beginning the conversation on assessing how are you doing in regards to parish vitality. And then based on the response of those pastors, we begin to walk with them to create strategic plans to create priorities, to create goals and then move through the process of actually implementing that work in their unique parish.

In other words it's very parish centric. Obviously we have expectations around marriage preparation. We have expectations as a diocese around sacramental preparation and youth ministry.

[00:36:35] Jim Jansen: Right. Kind of the minimal guidelines.

[00:36:38] Fr. Kastl: The minimum guidelines that we're taking into consideration, but also helping them swell their thinking above the minimal guidelines of what could be. And so we just finished, our first full fiscal year of being in this new model and, and a lot of growing pains of just team dynamics and getting the team trained up, getting them through coaching training right in the right seats. It's a huge shift.

[00:37:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Your job responsibilities have been, plan this retreat, organize this event, and now you're like sitting down with a parish, helping them reimagine what their religious education looks like.

[00:37:15] Fr. Kastl: So we really saw that first year of just figuring out who we are and storming and norming team dynamics and also supporting some other initiatives that we're doing, with Catholic Leadership Institute and Communio and Evangelical Catholic. A lot of support there. And as we move into this second fiscal year, some of our team members are going to be doing more specifically, work with The Clear Path while we also start doing this other work with the other organizations I've already mentioned, with the mindset that in two to three years when we get to a certain point, we will fully be implemented into this accompaniment model of our parishes.

It's new for the team. But again, not all the team members are the same team members that were here before. We had some attrition, and some people go and some people come on and as we reimagine that. But it's new for the priests. They're like what the heck is this?"

Although they said they wanted it, presented it through Presbyteral Council and so forth, but I think as they are now experiencing us coming out and not asking them just to do one more thing versus us asking them, "What do you need?" has really changed the dynamics, I believe, in the relationship between the pastor and the chancery structure, particularly the ministry arm of the chancery structure

[00:38:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Say more about that because we started off by like, you know, kinda joking that like, depending on, how honest people are or what day you catch them on, the chancery feels like, the Death Star, the Imperial headquarters. It, sometimes it's not... we used to joke that like, man, like if I can just, get a pastor's first reaction to seeing my caller ID to be a smile and not something else, a sigh of frustration we're gonna call that a win. What kind of response have you gotten?

[00:38:50] Fr. Kastl: I think you always have your first adapters, right? You have the guys who are, "Yes, this is the greatest thing ever. We've been waiting for this." And they welcome you in. I think you have the guys that took a phone call and took a coffee and were skeptical, but realized that there was no ask involved, but rather it was an offer in regards to walk alongside of them.

Obviously, then you have others that are still like, "I don't need you. I'm good out here by myself." And so I think there's... those three movements are always going to be a part of any sort of engagement from the chantry into the presbyterate. But I do think that there will be at some point, a moment where the positive experiences of this new model will begin to tip over and to bring along those maybe who have been skeptical or those who maybe have been naysayers of the new model.

One of the things that's very important to myself and to the director of that department is to be able to receive feedback. What's working , what's not working, and we can't be afraid of that, and we can't be afraid of making changes and adaptations as we learn how to live in this new model together.

So I'm not here to say Tulsa's got it figured out. I think I would say Tulsa is in our infancy of trying something new, and I would say the early fruit is positive. And so I think it's having the courage to try something new and then being nimble and then being open to feedback to make the necessary adjustments to make sure that you're doing what you're saying. In other words you're servicing them as they need to be serviced.

As it relates to the other offices in the chantry, I think all of us have doubled down on our commitment to being service-oriented, and so how we communicate out from the finance office, how we communicate out from kind of risk and legal and

like, all of this has to be with the mindset that we are servicing the front line. And the front line are our pastors and our associate pastors and their teams who are doing the work that only parishes can do, and we are at their service versus burdening them with one more thing. Now, we don't do that perfectly either because rules are rules.

CYP is CYP and, insurance and risk is insurance and risk, and you have to meet certain standards in order to be covered and to keep people safe, and sometimes if that doesn't happen, obviously you have to make a corrective. But we're always in that mindset of we are serving. We are serving the brothers. We're serving their parishes. we're serving the faithful by being a backstop and a resource.

[00:41:15] Jim Jansen: But this is as I listen to you, this is not... okay, this is not a, it's not an equation. It's not a math equation. It's not a formula. But, to maybe give a slightly different metaphor, if it were a recipe, there's some common ingredients. , First off, there's this conviction.

It's like, "You know what? We cannot keep trying to do the parish's job." We didn't talk about this, but for many dioceses, budget cuts are a big part of like, the resources are just not there, and so we can't have a person in every office doing everything, meeting every particular need. And so there's this conviction, "We can't keep doing the same thing. We can't keep watching our parishes melt away and serve in the same way we always have from the chancery." So this conviction, "Okay, we gotta try something new." And then this humility to say, "All right, whatever we try, we gotta keep listening, and whatever we do, accompaniment has to be a part of it."

We have to be present to people. We have to acknowledge the uniqueness of their circumstances. What else are some of the kinda major convictions or ingredients that have been a part of your efforts here to support your parishes more effectively?

[00:42:30] Fr. Kastl: Yeah, and I think I, I probably have mentioned a couple of them already, but just to reiterate the fact that I think to be convicted that the parish is the front line where evangelization happens.

I think do we believe that, yes or no? And if we do again, I think that then informs how we back into the structures, that support that reality. You've already mentioned it already in regards to finances and budget cuts, right? If you look at what is projected in regard to the generational transfer of wealth and how that's going to negatively impact, the life of the church as a certain generation ages out and that wealth is passed on to the next generation who is not as convicted as their parents and grandparents working smarter and more, and more efficiently with the widow's mite, and so I think the money piece of it also has to play into the equation to say like we have to be really good resources of the financial uh, resources that we have because we advance our mission through people, and so do we have the right people in the right seats to do the right job at this right time in which we're planted?

So I think those would be two big ones, like parish is the mission field, the diocese is there to back it up. Any money that we get to support that effort has to be lean and mean in order to support that front line of ministry.

[00:43:46] Jim Jansen: We've talked about the challenge to do this at the parish level. Pope Leo one of his very first homilies, he said one of his highest priorities is the missionary conversion of the entire church. Pope Francis talked about it.

He used pastoral conversion. Why is this so hard? It's just for anybody who's done it as a pastor, as a parish leader, this is hard stuff. Why is it so hard, and what difference can someone at the chancery actually make?

[00:44:16] Fr. Kastl: You and I know from our own walk why it's so hard is that bad habits die hard, right? It's easy to intellectualize this and to talk floral language and in beautiful prose about, moving from Christendom to apostolic or, the new evangelization.

We can talk about these things, we can write about these things, we can intellectualize these things, but the behavior of humans changes very slow. And so, we may be desiring this transformation to happen, but I think number one, it has to happen in the hearts and the minds of those who are leading the church, priests, deacons, religious, lay faithful, lay leaders in order to walk the talk, right?

Let's not just talk about it, but walk the talk and let your life be a demonstration that this is, real, it's true. I think there can be a disconnect between those two realities. Then it comes down to the individual persons in the pews.

It's a kaleidoscope of humanity. The Pareto principle, the eighty/twenty. There's always gonna be this mix of the super apostles, super evangelizers, and those who are riding the coattail into salvation on the predictable rhythmic reality of the Roman Catholic Church's approach to worship, and so I think there's-- it's a mixed bag, right? But for me, I oftentimes think about this as one who preaches. It's easy to talk about it, it's really hard to live it. And I think that tension exists within the souls of all of us.

[00:45:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And as we wrestle with it, having someone with you who's just like, " Hang in there. Keep going. You can do this." It's more than that to be, a chancery worker. But sometimes they're like, "You're not the only one. It's gonna be okay. Let's keep going."

Just the encouragement sometimes makes all the difference because yeah, change is hard and it can feel, depending on the season that you're in, whether you're just getting started or whether you've actually developed some momentum, it can feel very lonely.

[00:46:16] Fr. Kastl: It can. And, people oftentimes will say to me, like "Don't you get tired of constantly being, bombarded by priests with, crappy things?" And my response is like, "No, I don't," because right now this is my ministry. My ministry is to be a brother, to be a spiritual father in the ways in which I can to my brothers to help them untie knots so that their life and their ministry is more fruitful.

Under the obedience of the Bishop this is my work in the life of the church, and I find it to be very life-giving. And so it comes back to a mindset, I think, of do we have the right mindset on where we are and how the Lord is asking us to use our gifts and talents in the place in which we have been planted in the mystical body of the church?

[00:46:59] Jim Jansen: It's back to what you said earlier. It's like if the parish is really the front lines, when you encounter people that are wounded and shell-shocked and disoriented, it'd be like asking a medic, "Do you get tired of being around sick people?" 

[00:47:14] Fr. Kastl: It's a great analogy "

[00:47:16] Jim Jansen: No, it's kinda my job. Sure, I get tired like everybody else, but like I love caring for people who are on the front lines and helping them get, healthy and reoriented and back out there." I'll give you a moment to be a little prophetic here. Father, What do you think could happen if more of the church, particularly those who are in this kinda unique leadership role, were to embrace this accompaniment model of support?

[00:47:43] Fr. Kastl: I think it has the potential, to break down this us against them mindset that can exist at times within the structure of a diocese. That the us against them is the chancery against the parish versus having, the humility to adjust structures and ways in which we are living life together where we all begin to recognize that we share in the one mission.

We're united in the one mission. There is a sense of paternal care from the bishop through the office of the chancery for the brothers and for others, again, that they're caring for doing ministry religious communities, hospitals, schools. It becomes this, I think this, sense of a fraternal embrace from the spiritual leader of the diocese coming around all of those different individuals that are playing different roles in cultivating the diocese and the parishes and the other entities to be vibrant and to be on point in, in their work. We talk about wanting unity, but again, competitiveness and the needing to be the best and the needing to be right I think sometimes inhibits the spirit from fully working in, in a place.

[00:48:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Father, if somebody's been listening this long in the podcast, they're like, "Okay, this is like, ah, dang it." 

[00:49:05] Fr. Kastl: They must be asleep if they're still here and listening-- 

[00:49:08] Jim Jansen: Well uh, or, this is like, they're like, "Ah, dang it." It's like touching their convictions, their hopes, their dreams, their fears, this nagging sense of, calling that like, "Man, we need to do something different here." What would you say to somebody listening who is standing on that precipice of "Okay, we need to really take a serious look about how we serve as a diocese, how I serve as an individual, member servant kinda in, in the chancery." What would you say to them?

[00:49:40] Fr. Kastl: Don't give up. I think look to places that are doing it and are being successful in doing it as a way to inspire you and to maintain your own sense of hope and aspiration. And then I think bring people along. To be intentional on who else in your circle or who else in the circle of influence in a diocese might you invite in to see different models of how we can operate from in this new support structure model. So don't try to do it alone because you'll despair and you'll burn out. But again, look to places that have done it and then bring people of influence or who are in circles of influence into the vision.

[00:50:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And to have confidence, I'd add. The Lord provides those people. If He has really stirred a dream in you and it's becoming a calling He's also, provided those other people who have the connections, who have the resources, wisdom, experience, whatever it is, to help bring that to life.

[00:50:43] Fr. Kastl: Absolutely. And don't be afraid to send a cold call, phone call or email into places where you're seeing vibrancy and just talking to people. Whether it's one of us or anybody else that you look to as kind of your hero or the one who's inspiring you, reach out to them and talk to them.

I think, again, none of us want to be the best at what we're doing in isolation, but iron sharpens iron, and the more we can share ideas with each other and give away, the things that we have found to have worked, all the better. We own nothing, and so share, share it all and collaborate together.

[00:51:20] Jim Jansen: Beautiful. Father, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing so much of your story. I'm looking forward to heavenmeeting Grandma Kastl someday,

[00:51:30] Fr. Kastl: She was an amazing woman, and I feel her prayers every day

[00:51:33] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody. You know somebody really nerdy, really nitchy who works at a parish or a chancery who needs the encouragement of this conversation. So when you get to your destination, you are safe to do so, share this out with a friend.