[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. My name is Jim Janssen and I am your host man. You're gonna love the conversation I had today with Father Tim Donovan. Father Tim has created these amazing. Resources and a process that is really transforming catechesis for children and families. It's called Pathways.

It's fantastic. Jodi Phillips and I dive into the conversation with, uh, father Tim today. Uh, we talk about the foundation of faith for sacraments, that we have to be able to see the faith manifesting before we give the sacraments. Uh, we talk about missionary families in his parish that are coming alongside other families and helping them.

And uh, we actually, if you stick around at the end, we have a giveaway. The stuff that Father Tim and his team has created are so cool, and we have some for you that we're gonna give away. So take a listen to the episode. You're gonna love today's conversation. 

[00:01:00] Intro: Welcome to the EquipCast for the Archdiocese of Omaha.

Designed to help leaders to transform their cultures. To embody the pastoral vision to be one church encountering Jesus, equipping disciples, and living mercy. 

[00:01:17] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. My name is Jim Janssen and I am your host. And for those of you who like to mock me, 'cause I start every episode by saying this is an old friend.

I'm actually not talking to an old friend today. I'm talking to a new friend actually too. It's such a joy to be able to introduce you. Uh, some of you know Jodi Phillips. Uh, Jodi and I work together in the Office of Evangelization and Family Life, uh, here at the Archdiocese. And today joining us, father Timothy Donovan. Father, how are you? 

[00:01:48] Fr. Tim Donovan: Doing well.

Only my mother calls me Timothy, but it's okay. You know. 

[00:01:52] Jim Jansen: You're not in trouble. Yeah. I'm sorry about that. 

[00:01:54] Fr. Tim Donovan: I know. I was like, oh my goodness. 

[00:01:55] Jim Jansen: Well, just so, yeah. 

[00:01:56] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. Well, thank you. Happy to be here with you. Um, just so excited to always just talk about the stuff that God pours into our hearts, and I'm excited.

I'm hopeful, and I'm, yeah. Grateful. Thanks for having me. 

[00:02:08] Jim Jansen: Jodi. How are you? 

[00:02:09] Jodi Phillips: I'm doing well. I was really appreciating that I'm also now a new friend, Uhhuh. 

[00:02:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, I mean a new old friend. 

[00:02:15] Jodi Phillips: A new old friend. 

[00:02:18] Jim Jansen: So Jodi, why don't you start us off because you ran into father's work and what will let him kind of unfold and unpack that for us.

But we were, I mean, practically giddy when we discovered the work that father and his team had been doing, helping parents and religious educators come alongside. These parents in forming children for just faith in general and some of these key sacramental moments. Why don't you start us off, Jodi? 

[00:02:47] Jodi Phillips: Yeah.

Our discovery story, well, some of you may, may not know this, but uh, if you work for, for a diocese, you often get samples of different curriculums from around the world. So if there's, if there's a curriculum out there, we've probably gotten a sample and, um, sometimes they get sent to me, sometimes they get sent to Jim, and one morning, uh, Jim knocks on my door with this box for I, I think it was for reconciliation, and he said, Hey, this is for you to look at just FYI.

And then he stopped and he goes, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have a son preparing for first reconciliation. I think I need to take this home. Um, and at that point I was. Barely allowed to look at it. Only enough to look up the website because what we immediately noticed was how we, well put together this curriculum was, it was, it was a box, a beautiful box.

And I we're gonna keep talking about boxes, but that was for the entire family, right? To prepare the child and the whole family for the sacrament. So I immediately, that day, stopped what I was doing, which is a rare occurrence in, in my ministry to just go look at the website. I think that day I set up a Zoom call with you father, um, because I was so excited about, just like I.

What I saw and how well it aligned with the ministry we were doing in the archdiocese. It's, it's pretty rare that something would stop both Jim and I in our tracks. Um, so that was kind of our, our introduction to your resource, um, very quickly delighted in its looks and yeah, the alignment that we saw with, with our, our work here.

So really excited. 

[00:04:16] Jim Jansen: Why don't you get us started? Like tell us a little bit about just your story, what you do and, and how this kind of began for you. 

[00:04:24] Fr. Tim Donovan: Absolutely. Um, so I am actually our entire team, we're all high school youth ministers at some point in our journey. And so before I entered the seminary, I was a high school youth minister and I really call that like the, the era of youth ministry where there was a lot of good ministry being done and kind of big high school programs happening.

And um, but all of us, I think at the end of that looked back and we saw that the enduring fruit was, was minimal. Like no matter how good the programs were, the kind of lasting fruit was not really had less to do with what we did with the teens than it was about them having families that practiced that and modeled it for them in their homes.

And we'd have like a 70% retention rate after confirmation to come and these kids to come back and do leadership with us through the rest of their high school experience. Then we saw like within a month or a year or two into college, that probably only, like less than 5% probably remained faithful. Wow.

And that common denominator was their family. And so I went off to seminary, our creative director, Pam, uh, went off and started to do family ministry, started to go around our diocese, speaking to parents. So she does that all the time. Still. She's in the trenches doing things with them, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't.

And so much of what we've created has come out of just years of her and I doing things with families because that's become our heart. So we all decided that we wanna really invest sooner. We wanna start to really go back to the roots of that tree rather than trying to, you know, convert like fruit post.

You know, being like, oh, we have bad fruit, but let's try to fix it. Yeah. But really going back to the root to heal and to, um. Transform that, that experience there to, it produces that lifelong fruit of faith in a family. And so, um, I was ordained in 2017, so not too long old of a priest here. And, uh, within that first year in my parish, it just, the Lord was like, we gotta do something else.

We can't keep going down this same road. It's not producing fruit. And so we started to talk and, uh, we started to develop our first resource, which is Nourish our first communion resource. Then we exhibited that resource at the LA Congress, um, in 20. Hmm. Is it 2019? It's a vortex of time. This pandemic.

Yeah. Anyways, seriously, before the lockdowns February, and then we went into this full blown, you know, worldwide lockdown. And the Lord during that time, just like was dumping like just things into my heart, into my head. And we wrote and we went from one resource to over 10 in a year, um, for families. And so really if it wasn't for this pandemic, this like was a 10 year model or a 10 year kind of vision that got really just put into a very distinctive time.

So we're actually a, a nonprofit. We're, our name is Fa, faith and Family Life Catholic Ministries. So it's a mouthful, but we feel like it really helps to kind of show what we're trying to do. We're trying to create resources that help. Parents have intentional faith conversations with their kids because that's the stuff that sticks.

And so that's kind of where we came from, what we realized, and then what we decided that we wanna spend the rest of our lives doing. 

[00:07:29] Jim Jansen: Wow. Father, I just have to comment. I was so struck by your humility, the way you talk about, you know, this labor of love as a, in a, as a high school youth minister, and yet seeing that there wasn't lasting fruit and that when there was, it wasn't from your labors.

I'm amazed at you spoke that's just beautiful in, in a tragic sort of way, which is how easily you spoke of that. 'cause I think there's probably a lot of people who see that, but maybe aren't as honest, uh, as you were. Just be able to say, okay. Lord. How, how do we do something different here? 

[00:08:02] Fr. Tim Donovan: No, no. It was, I, I, I think that took a long time to get to that point, and it was definitely a full of sadness in the beginning.

Mm-hmm. Kind of being like, did I waste my, my life here? Like, what was that about? And I think when we work for the gospel, it's never a waste. Um, but we do have to Yes. Amen. Be. We do have to be honest, I think with the signs of the times too. And, um, I think in so many ways, the signs of the times at that point was pointing us to that.

And the church was kind of looking toward youth at that time, and we were doing that. And then I think the signs of the times have changed and mm-hmm. And now it's requiring a, an, a new era for a new approach. And I think that, that, it's also, I think, a mark of the spirit to be able to go where the wind blows too, you know?

Mm-hmm. Then this wind blows where it wants, which is frustrating for some who, like it really structured, which I do. I was an engineering student before I became a youth minister, so I have this like systems, you know, I like to have it all orderly, you know? Yeah. And so then the Holy Spirit kind of comes in and wrecks my life and moves me and, but I'm so grateful for both of those things because they come together Yes.

Into a very interesting place for our ministry. Wow. 

[00:09:04] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. That's awesome. Father, you do, you do. More than just this ministry, right? I mean, you are a priest in, in a parish. Can you tell us a little bit about your day job? 

[00:09:13] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah, definitely. So yeah, this is my side hustle. No, just kidding. Um, as people call it.

Um, yeah. So I am my assignment in our diocese. I'm a priest of the diocese of Orange in California. I speak to many Floridians and they think that I'm from someplace in Florida. 'cause they have a county of orange there as well, if you knew that. And so I've learned that recently, but I, none of the Nebraskans are like, 

[00:09:34] Jim Jansen: I wonder if he's from Nebraska.

There's no, there's no orange Nebraska. Nope. Sorry. Yeah. 

[00:09:40] Fr. Tim Donovan: There's no orange trees anywhere. Not dark. Um, and so I am. Currently, my assignment for the diocese is that I am a high school chaplain, so I work at Santa Margarita Catholic High School in rancher, Santa Margarita, and I'm also our diocesan delegated priest for healing and deliverance.

So I do all of the basically minor exorcisms of our diocese and work with people that are afflicted and all that good stuff. So yeah, so I wear many different hats. This is my favorite hat to wear, I have to say. Yeah, I still do the high school work, but I also seeing that increasingly my decision to go younger is increasingly confirmed.

Say that? 

[00:10:19] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. That's. Yeah, that's, that was a, a lot of hats. I don't think I even realized that you're wearing so that's very diverse ends of ministry. 

[00:10:30] Jim Jansen: Yeah. They don't, yeah, it was like, I mean, they fit together in God, but not a lot of crossover is there. 

[00:10:36] Fr. Tim Donovan: It's actually interesting, the, the one crossover is the family.

[00:10:40] Jodi Phillips: Yeah, sure. Sort of thinking. 

[00:10:41] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. All of, all of the, you know, all of the experiences that I have with, you know, troubled kids in our high school can either be traced back to their family of origin or their friend's family of origin. Um, usually almost all of our deliverance cases are associated with some sort of woundedness that came from an earlier time that Yeah.

Then kind of open them up to seeking out healings in different ways, desperation, all these different things. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, so it all is kind of together there, and I Yeah. Just do a lot of it out of obedience, you know? Yeah. Trusting that the Holy Spirit is working through the church and working through my bishop.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:15] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. No, that makes sense. You're, you're both seeing kind of the wounds of, of a lack of formation in the family at the same time as, as you mentioned, you're, you're getting to work at the roots. To heal from the roots up. Absolutely. Father, can you, can you give us a little bit of the layout of religious education?

Um, you, you've alluded to this a little bit within what you were seeing in youth ministry, but as you've dug into this work, um, in particular with, as you started with sacramental formation, some of the layout of religious education and what you were seeing that really inspired you to, to create this work in particular.

[00:11:49] Fr. Tim Donovan: Definitely. You know, um, I hear lots of different terms for religious education across the United States. Yeah. And one that really took me back the other day was PSR. Parish School of Religion. I don't like, I don't think you've ever heard that one for a long time. Right? No. I was like, whoa. That's the whole CCD bit.

Right. That takes us back years probably down to Pius of 10th, you know? Yeah. Um, and so I think that, you know, what's hard is that in our country we've never, we've only had one model of faith formation, and that's been a school model. Mm-hmm. Um, from the very beginning of the immigrant church here in the United States, um, was down in the middle of that industrial revolution and families were, you know, working kids, went to the Catholic schools, run by the nuns, and, and when people weren't able to go to Catholic schools for whatever reason, then they started this parish School of Religion.

They see CD programs mm-hmm. After school. So it was a school after school. And really when you had a culture that, um, supported that when it was like still that kind of, I call it was in the water, like you have Christianity mm-hmm. Is in the water and kind of the river, you can kind of go down the river and more or less.

Maybe not very intentional, but at least you kind of have the values of the Christian life in there in some way. Um, and then at some point those waters change direction and, um, it's no longer in the water. And when that mm-hmm. When that rug got pulled out from underneath that system, um, we really started to see it fall apart in the sense of intentionality.

And then people not, you know, come into church or being intentional in their homes because they didn't really have to be intentional. So they didn't even know what that intentionality looked like. Mm-hmm. And so what we're seeing now is a real need for. Providing tools that reteach people how to be intentional and how to own it, and how to make it their own, rather than just to say, I'm gonna go along with the flow and we're gonna pop out the other side.

You know, it just doesn't happen anymore. There's that great book from Chris and Dun, the Apostolic Mission. I don't know if you've had a chance to read that. Yeah. Love she. And that's the reality there we're, we're now in, uh, apostolic times. We now no longer can assume that, you know, people are coming to us with faith and all sorts of different things.

So I think within the last, I think especially 20 years, um, I. That that's accelerated majorly, I think it's been going for a bit now, but I think the acceleration of that as a major, and now we're seeing the fruit of it. Now we're seeing a second or third generation out from intentional, um, kind of at least practice of faith in homes.

Mm-hmm. And so, um, I think we're actually in the last generation, in my mind, of people who are gonna go or bring their kids to church 'cause they have to. Mm-hmm. Like when you sit down with families, they say like, why are you here? Because I can't live at grandma's house unless I baptize this baby. Totally.

You know, and I think, yeah, that this, their kids are not gonna do that because they're not going to, unless we grab them. Yes. They're not gonna tell that to their kids. And I think we're in that very end piece. And so what we try to do with our resources is to meet people where they're at and to accompany them, to not just say, you know, we have this one size fits all formation program.

You come 23. Six weeks, two years in a row, and all of a sudden you pop out at the other end. Now a very faithful practicing person, but to meet them, to sit down with them face to face, tell us about your life, what's going well, what's not like, what's your experience of faith so far? Mm-hmm. And then just to put them on a path, um, to put them on a path of deeper engagement.

We call it like an on-ramp onto the freeway of faith rather than a drive through experience of faith formation where they order the thing. Do the two years, get the thing, drive back out. Rather, we wanna put them into a, a process and not just a program, a process of formation that Yeah. Moves them, you know, from disengagement to an engagement, but with other people around them in an accompaniment model.

And so it's very based on the catechumenate, um, model, but also just this heavy spirit of accompaniment with other families. John Paul II says, you know, families form families, parents form parents, kids, forms kids. And if we have those families in our parish that are those ones, we want those disciple maker families to draw them close to the other families, then draw them in.

It's all about relationships at the end of the day. 

[00:15:49] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh my gosh, father, this is, this is so, so good. I love the way you're, you're describing this because my, you know, my words not yours. This is kind of assembly line mode. You found another way to do it. How to actually meet individual children and families where they're at.

What else makes pathways. Different from other sacramental resources. 

[00:16:10] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. We really, really focused on being experiential. Mm-hmm. Um, we know that kids learn from experiences, um, but we also know that parents learn from experiences. Kind of that's life. Right? That's, that's the best way for something to go from our head to our heart is through an experience.

Mm-hmm. And so when we can provide a meaningful, tangible, hands-on experience to do that, it can become such a, uh, signpost for them for the rest of their lives. And so really, I think though our sacramental preparation resources are sacramental in nature, they affect what they signify. 

[00:16:44] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Wait, say that again.

Like build that out. 

[00:16:47] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. So a, a sacrament works like this. The St. Thomas Quin does it affects what it signifies. So, you know, there's a sign that does something. Ordinarily in the world, but has some sort of spiritual effect on it. And so, like in our men box, we have that little football in there and we talk about, you know, the word for sin in Hebrew is, uh, I forget what it is, it's in there somewhere, but it means to miss the mark.

Mm-hmm. And they hold up a little, uh, kind of, they call those goalposts and they try to throw this little football through the goalpost. And if they can get it in there, that's hitting the mark. And if we nice, you know, throw it off to the side, it's missing the mark. And what that's allowed is that even dads have told us, like, you know what, that's given me a tool.

Now to go back to that, you know, in the backyard when I'm throwing around the baseball, now I can say, Hey, like, you know, we're missing the mark with your brother. You know, we need to start. Mm-hmm. You know, kind of going in this direction some more. So making the actual kind of teaching of the sacrament sacramental in the sense that they're experiencing these signs that point them to deeper realities.

Because actually we live in a world now as, um, Charles Taylor would say, or also Patrick Shea says in his book as well, that we live in a des sacramentalized world, right? It's no longer, um, I. What they would call enchanted, right? There's no longer this sense that the mm-hmm. The things we're experiencing, touching, feeling, tasting, have any sense of another world that they're connected to.

And so the sacraments maintain that for us. And if we can draw out that meaning from those moments, that can have those lasting ex, you know, impressions on young people and something they can return to, it's a, it's a connection. It's an association that will have lifelong meaning for them. 

[00:18:22] Jim Jansen: So it, it occurs to me as we're, as we're doing this, like the three of us know what you're talking about.

'cause you know, we have these boxes, you know, sit sitting. We have a whole, I shouldn't tell people, right? We'll have to lock 'em down. But we have, we, we have a whole like little stash of these boxes and they're wonderful. They're beautiful. You open 'em up and there's all these beautiful interactive activities.

Parent, child, breakout, just some of it. Give us just a little teaser. You talked about the football. You know, as, as a way for boys to, to, to get this concept of sin. Just give a couple little anecdotes of what you're talking about here with these very tactile, experiential catechetical tools. 

[00:19:01] Fr. Tim Donovan: Certainly. So, um, the most, the full boxes that we have are, are, you know, amend and nourish boxes.

We also have different ones like the Creed. Um, and we're also creating one right now for like a restored order model of confirmation. That's gonna be really exciting. And, uh, currently writing that. But in our nourish box, which speaks about verse communion, it actually follows the structure of the mass.

'cause I think that sometimes Eucharist is reduced to like just receiving the body in blood of Jesus, which is essential to that reality. But the Eucharist is in fact the entire, you know, liturgy mm-hmm. The entire experience. Mm-hmm. And so drawing them into that, because if not, then it becomes just this like one and done type of thing that we see in a lot of places.

And so, yeah, what we want to do in that resource is that we wanna show that what you do at home is a family. Is also what we're doing at church as a family of families. So we kind of modeled it like that. Like the first one is family is gather. We talk about getting together in your home, setting up a specific space for that.

So they set up a sacred space in their home and then we connect it to the church. We have a building and a sanctuary, and we have special furniture. And we all have a place within that experience to participate in it as we do in our home. So what we're trying to do is connect life to our faith rather than it being something that we go to now.

This is something that we live, it's the lens for my life. It's my heart, it's my, our life is faith rather than it's something that I go to learn about. We also, another image for sin about the Penitential Act is we have the kids, uh, squirt out a whole bottle of, uh, a little tube of lotion on a plate. And then we tell them that they have to get all that lotion back in that tube, and they start to realize they can't do that.

And so the whole idea is that we do, we do and say things that we can't get back. And so that helps 'em to realize like, wow, like. That's why I need to ask for forgiveness from God because. I can't fix some things that I've gotten myself into in my life. 

[00:20:50] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Oh, that's so good. 

[00:20:52] Fr. Tim Donovan: Like, we have one about like pickup sticks.

Talk about making decisions. We talk about the homily, how the homily is supposed to help us live better lives. And so they play a game of pickup sticks. And so every little, you know, action that they do has a, you know, reflection of a, onto another experience. So as they pull out a stick, it affects the other sticks and you know, this kind of reality in there.

So they're trying to just use those images to evoke a personal connection so that the then theological teaching that follows it, that's connected to the experience now has a place to sit within an image. 

[00:21:24] Jodi Phillips: Oh, that's fantastic. That's so, yeah, and I just, I wanna reiterate in case anyone didn't hear these materials are beautiful.

Yeah. And I, I think I've told Father Tim this and, and your team that in case anyone didn't know, I'm a millennial and I, I believe I'm probably around the age range of most parents who are, are preparing their kids for the sacraments. You know, these are, are well crafted, well created materials. And can you speak to that just a little bit?

Like your desire to make these materials something that was attractive to families? 

[00:21:52] Fr. Tim Donovan: Definitely. I think that, um, I'm gonna, you know, butcher the Latin of this, but the via pocho, whatever it is that the way of beauty that John f this Yeah. I can speaks about is so important. 'cause when a, when a world has failed us in truth and in goodness, the beauty won't. 

[00:22:07] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:22:08] Fr. Tim Donovan: Beauty is always adore that we can walk through, um, because that remains.

And I think that when we see beautiful things, when we experience beautiful things, when beautiful things are given to us, we feel valued. And it's one of the reasons the church continues to make beautiful cathedrals for all people. It continues to produce art and music. And I think we should probably do more of that these days.

But it's that, it's that place that has the access point to all people. And so we've actually been told, we don't say this, but we've been told that our, our, our boxes are like sacred gifts. For people. And when they receive them, they feel honored by that. And then one of the saddest things I've ever heard from a parent was I wasn't expecting anything good.

[00:22:46] Jim Jansen: That's so true. 

[00:22:47] Fr. Tim Donovan: And that we've gotten into a place with the church that they don't expect anything good from us. Like we have the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. And our parents are saying to us, I didn't expect anything good. 

[00:22:59] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:22:59] Fr. Tim Donovan: And so I think when we don't surround these mysteries with proper honor and proper respect and proper beauty, then it actually takes away from the person's capacity to receive the truth.

Yeah. And so like, and the same thing happens in a mass, right? Like, you know, yeah. Preaching and music aren't essential, but they can also detract from your capacity to engage in the fullness of it too. You know? 

[00:23:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I was thinking like, so again, audio, so, so for those who can't see it, it's kind of like catechesis.

And the high quality wooden, Melissa and Doug Toys and Pottery Barn all had a baby and like, da da, like, oh, here we go. That, that, that gets to these, these beautiful pathway boxes where it's just, it's real material, beautifully designed, but they communicate the sacred. They're just really fantastic. 

[00:23:54] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah.

It's a great way to explain it. Yeah. 

[00:23:56] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Is that, is that not a common way? Does not everybody call it Melissa and Doug and Pottery Barn had a baby? 

[00:24:02] Fr. Tim Donovan: I don't normally get that one, but we have definitely seen people talk, you know, compare us to those things before. Really. Yeah. I totally, that was my first thought right away.

[00:24:10] Jodi Phillips: Yeah, for sure. I wanna, something else you mentioned, um, you know, you're, it's called Pathways. You mentioned this is more of a process and, and, and a model of accompaniment. A word, um, that sometimes maybe churchy, but we talk about the Catechumenal model here in the Archdiocese of Omaha. We, as we embark on this big goal, we're asking our parishes to put in a clear path of discipleship.

And this, when I talked about what was most attractive about pathways, it was this, it was this clear path, this pathway of sacramental formation. Can you talk more about the Catechumenal model and how that is a part of the Pathways process? 

[00:24:46] Fr. Tim Donovan: Definitely. So the catechumenate models, so that if anyone can, that word still is kind of vague.

Yeah. So think about like our RCIA processes and parishes where people come seeking the sacraments. They're like, Hey, I'm interested in becoming Catholic. And we say. Awesome. You're gonna start this process and we're gonna come and you're gonna ask questions, and then we're gonna teach you some stuff. And then you're going to come into Lent and have these scrutinies, which will be coming up very soon here.

And I think that that process allows a very natural unfolding to happen. But then they get to this beautiful impartation of these sacraments on the Easter vigil. And then a really essential component that we, I think fail to see sometimes is the Mystagogical Mystagogical component, which is like the post, like let's unpack this experience.

And which most parishes just kinda like that falls off. Like they don't do that. And so there's a lot of the catechumenate that is like the model and the method. So, so, so good. And then an implementation of it I think can be, you know. Lacking in some places, but the model kind of taking that into a faith formation model is that probably the reality is that we can assume that most people that are coming to us today don't have faith or a faith that is active, a faith that is alive.

And so they're essentially coming to us in the same way. Somebody who maybe is not baptized yet would be coming to us because maybe that, you know, that grace has 

[00:26:07] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. 

[00:26:07] Fr. Tim Donovan: You know, not bloomed in their life. Yeah. And so meeting them where they're at in that sense and saying, we're so happy that you're here.

We're so excited to journey with you. And I think, you know. Kind of trying to really break that association with like, Hey, I'm here for the thing, rather than I'm mm-hmm. You know, we're so happy you're here for a relationship with the Lord and the rest of the things are gonna come after that. And then so establishing first that encounter, that relationship.

And so, you know, we start with the. Which is our, um, basic proclamation of our gospel, which is something we had assumed for so many years Yes. That people have come with. And now we can't assume that. So we begin there to establish them in a relationship with a community, but also with, with the Lord, a personal relationship with Jesus, you know?

And so also I think that then we move them into like a basic catechesis, giving them a foundation. So we say that our progressive formation is like very foundational in the sense like, how do we provide a place, a foundation of solid rock rather than come to sand of our lives so that that faith can continue to grow.

And then kind of giving them the specific formation for a sacrament that they're going for. And then we have an ongoing formation, um, that continues to unpack the mysteries of our life, especially in prayer and the moral life. I think so often we kind of flip those things around in our formation. Like we start with those two components like morality and prayer, but that only comes from a fruit of our lives, you know, live for the Lord.

Yeah. Instead of the other way around, you know? 

[00:27:30] Jim Jansen: Right. If prayer is a conversation, who wants to have this regular. Heart-to-heart conversation with a stranger. You gotta get to know him first. Yeah, absolutely. Father, as you talk about, can you share some stories of that impact? Because I just, I love what you said there, that you do not assume the, the gospel, you don't pass over this kind of foundational primary proclamation.

Can you share some stories that parishes, that have begun to do this, what's their experience? What are the experiences of, of the couples and the, and the families and the children? When that step is, isn't assumed. 

[00:28:05] Fr. Tim Donovan: Definitely. The beautiful part I think, is that we are actually getting to know our families and, and before it's crazy to say that we didn't do that.

It, people usually would just sign up for this process and they would just roll in, drop their kids off. We would never really know the parents personally. And so our process actually begins with an interview where they sit down and it's not an inquisition. It's not to be like, when's the last time you went to mass?

But to really be like, tell me about your life. Tell me about your family. Like how can we support you? How can we pray for you? It's establishing the first, a relationship of trust because the church in all effectiveness has lost her situational authority. Like, we can no longer just say the church says, and people are like, oh yes, church.

Right? No, that doesn't exist anymore. The kids don't care. These millennials are like, yeah, it doesn't matter to me. Yes. Um, but we, the one thing that we can never lose is a relational authority. If we can have a relationship, that's where people, you know, really will trust us and in drawing, uh, them in this new way forward rather than, because I think a lot of people kind of a resistance.

Like, wait, this is not. What I thought I was gonna be. So preparing them for that, you know, kind of accompanying them through that process. Yeah. But then also like when parents come and they sit around a table with other parents and they actually are hearing that they're not alone. I think the biggest, most important realization in beginning our faith is the, like the you two.

Like when we can have that experience, they can look across the table and look at another parent and say like, oh, okay, I can, oh my gosh, like I'm not alone. Mm-hmm. Like I have other people who are with me who have the same questions, who have the same, you know, concerns, who have the same desires for their kids.

And, and we live in a world where that's not assumed in any other circle, right? Like the kids they play with in their baseball teams don't necessarily have the same values that they have or want for their kids. But that's the one place that that should be happening, which is in those church experiences.

So seek happens at church in small groups where the parents are together and then the kids do a VBS experience. Super fun for them. But the primary C of this is those parents having those connections with one another and then introducing them to this God who is personal, who wants a relationship with them who's not just a God of rules and morality and all these kind of things, but a God who is, who wants to encounter them.

And so Pam went and did it at one of our parishes. 'cause we like to stay on the on the pulse and want to see if these things are working and not just recreate stuff and say Good luck. Um, but we wanna go see like, how is it working, right? 

[00:30:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:30:26] Fr. Tim Donovan: So she went and led the parent session at one of these parishes local for us in orange.

And, um, she was watching this one parent and she was just like, you know, arms crossed, like, like mad that she had to be there, all this kind of stuff. And then she started just to melt throughout this process, week one, week two. And then by the week four, she was crying and laughing and, and just connected in such a deep, meaningful way with these families at her small group that it doesn't take a lot, but it takes a quality, very intentional, um, expose of the gospel and a safe and respectful place, and amazing things can happen when people open up their hearts.

That was also the same lady who said to her like, I wasn't expecting anything good. Wow. Wow. Um, and when she experienced. Herself being respected, honored, and then also that we provided something good. And so seek is actually only four sessions over the course of four months. You can do it in four weeks, however you wanna do it.

Mm-hmm. But a lot of times we get a critique in our model that like, you don't have enough stuff. Like you don't have 26 weeks of stuff. And we tell people, like it does not matter how much stuff you give them if they're not open to hearing it and receiving it. Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:33] Jodi Phillips: Amen. 

[00:31:33] Fr. Tim Donovan: And so those four weeks are about bringing them on, like slowly ramping them up into it rather than being like, come to 13 weeks of really crappy stuff, you know?

[00:31:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's a huge commitment when you don't trust this community yet. Yep. Totally. 

[00:31:46] Fr. Tim Donovan: Four weeks is a big commitment. Yeah. Yeah. But if that's meaningful, if that touches their life, if it has a transformational component to it, then after that these people are like, what's next? Yes. And so like they, if that's our, that's what we're looking for.

We're looking for parents to ask Dres what's next. And in old models, I have never heard them ask that. They're like, when is this over? Most of the time, right? Yeah. Instead of, what is next? What is next? 

[00:32:10] Jim Jansen: This is all fantastic. I'm gonna put on my, I don't know what, what hat it is. It's not the devil's advocate hat, but I mean, the beauty of this, the.

Just it as we reflect on it, you know, coming back to the catechetical, or excuse me, the Catechumenal model, just going back to relationship, it feels so common sense, but I know there's some obstacles and so what I want to do now is if I, if we can shift our conversation, we wanna ask you some hard questions that, that we think are like in the head of people listening to like, yeah.

But, right. There's like, I'd love to do this, but, so I'm gonna let Jodi start us off, but we wanna ask you some hard questions. You all have thought through this so well, and have demonstrated that it works. We want to see if we can remove some obstacles that might be servicing in people's minds. 

[00:33:02] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. Yeah.

I think one of the things that I, I sometimes hear a struggle with is, you know, we want to require something of the family. Right. You know, you just mentioned that, that mother who is like, I don't wanna be here and I'm feeling forced to be here. So how do you balance that tension? Between the right of a child and a family to receive a sacrament.

You know, whether that's they're preparing for confirmation or baptism. 'cause you also have materials for baptism and the need of the community to insist on some preparation and to come alongside that family in certain ways. How do you balance that tension? 

[00:33:35] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah, good question. Um, it's interesting, if you go back to the RCIA or catechumenate model, I think it's very revelatory for us in this process.

We are actually looking on a catechumenate. We are looking for faith before we baptize, baptize them. 

[00:33:52] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:33:52] Fr. Tim Donovan: We're actually asking, we were seeing like, has conversion happened, is faith manifesting here? And then we confer the sacrament based on that reality. And if we don't see a conversion, then we, we should not confer the sacrament.

Because the sacrament itself is not like magically doing something to them. Right. It's meeting them. That's what sacrament does. You know, grace is meeting that piece because faith is already working in that person. The church says that explicitly. So we wanna see conversion happening before we confer this sacrament.

And I think the same thing can be said of these other sacraments. Like the idea that we are conferring communion on a family or on a kid who doesn't come to church and live in communion is absurd to me. Like theologically, it doesn't make any sense. Hmm. And so we should be seeing communion manifest communion of their family communion within the church in the community before we just confer a sacrament on them hoping that, that somehow opre Atu is going to create that out of them.

It's, you know, grace builds on nature, so we have to see them responding to that reality. Mm-hmm. Before we just think it's gonna be a magical moment. Grace is, uh, you know, grace isn't magic. Um, sacraments aren't magic. Uh, they're conferred, but they need to be received deeply. And that's what this preparation's supposed to be doing.

And then also this kind of afterwards of, you know, ex ex exploring that further. And so we also say in the canons, like specifically to baptism, that we should not baptize a kid if we don't have a reasonable expectation that the parents are gonna raise them in the faith. And that's hard for people 'cause we would, we think that we just want to give them this grace of this moment.

But if they're gonna go down the road and lose the grace of that, immediately the church would say that it would be better for that child to maybe choose that later in their life then. And that's, um, that's hard with our pastoral hearts. We, we want people just to have the stuff like, 'cause the stuff is important to us If they're not ready to receive the stuff sacraments, particularly than the effect that it's gonna have on their life.

Um. Is gonna be limited as well. And Thomas, I love what he says about some of grace, especially of like, confirmation per se, is that like if we, if we receive that in a gr, you know, state of sin or something, that kind of, the grace kind of hovers around until we get forgiven and then it comes into our life, you know?

Mm-hmm. Yes. Because that's how grace works, right? Grace is given, it's free, and then we have to dispose ourself to be receiving that. So I think so much of our formation has to be looking for readiness rather than that they just went through a process and Yeah. And, you know, finished a program. But the question is readiness.

And the pastor has that sole responsibility to make sure that a, that a child is ready, that, you know, not just intellectually, but has some sort of mark, that the faith has changed their life. That conversions happen on some level. 

[00:36:35] Jim Jansen: Father, I love that. I mean, I, what I hear you saying is like, this is actually not new.

This is deep already within the tradition of the church, within a. The rights and the instructions we're, we're looking for something to already be present in their preparation so that we can be confident that the sacrament is gonna be fruitful. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that. But I, but I, what I now, I'm like, okay, but you know what, or second, like question here.

Immediately pastors parish leaders are like, uh. If I try and do this, people who expected a drive-through are gonna be mad. What do you say to parishes who are afraid that if they change the way they do things, families are gonna revolt and just move to another parish? 

[00:37:19] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. That is a one of the major things that we get this kind of fear.

Like if I change something, the whole thing's gonna implode and I'm gonna be left completely. Like I had a pastor once, it was my pastor when I was trying to push him to make some change here, and he said to me, we're gonna keep doing what we're we've been doing and it's gonna work. Like, and I, and that was the moment for me that I was like, whoa, like.

That is, is something more happening here? There's a deep, deep fear. Mm-hmm. There's a deep fear that something is gonna never, you know, get, get cut off and never come back. I say a couple things to the pastors and then I'll share a couple stories that, that I've seen that it's just proves it wrong. But I say first and foremost that if people are gonna leave the church, they've already done it.

Wow. In most senses, right? Yeah. Yeah. Unpack that. What do you mean? Yeah, I mean, if you are, like, if you're listening now and you're still a faithful member of the body of Christ, like thank you. Because the clergy and the church, we've done a bad job at taking care of you and protecting you. All sorts of things that we were supposed to be doing.

Like we failed a lot of ways already. And, and I think that if we acknowledge that and the people that are here are like, they're warriors, you know? Mm-hmm. When the people who are still coming to us, we have to assume that something is there to build off of that something. Um, rather than trying to get like more hoops, jump through, more hoops, um, and kind of really meeting them there and drawing them through something meaningful rather than just like, let's, you know, do this thing.

I would also say this, there's a parish in Newark that uses our resources. Awesome guy up there, his name is Steve, Steven Serafin, love him. And, uh, he has big pair, 600 people centered families. And, uh, he decided that he was gonna move in this direction and so he. Just all the families we're moving in this new direction, here we go.

About 10% of them voiced concerns. What he decided to do was he sat down with all of those people, all that 10% of people personal one-on-one meetings to find out what their concerns were, listen to them. After he did that, and he further explained what was happening here, it's not, you know, 'cause sometimes people don't know and they're afraid as, as much as pastors are, right?

Yep. Yeah. And so it's sitting down and actually like, here's actually what's gonna happen. And what we really, what we're, what we're hoping for this, we're hoping to, to build up your family, to have, to have meaningful moments for you and your family to have at home. Like people want that, they just don't know that that's what you're doing yet, you know?

And so when he sat down with them, only four of those 10% decided that they were gonna go to another. Four people, four families out of the 10% decided that they were gonna go to another church. Every single one of those families has since returned. Wow. 

[00:39:45] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. It's incredible. 

[00:39:46] Fr. Tim Donovan: So I wanna just say to any of, if there's pastors listening or Dres, like, like that fear is unfounded if it's done properly.

Mm-hmm. If we do it with respect, if we honor the people, if we listen to them, if we engage them, I think what's so unfortunate about the way that we make change sometimes in the church is just by legislating it, we are doing this and I don't care about you. Mm-hmm. If we sit down with someone and say, we wanna move in this direction, and like, I want to hear your concerns and I want to hear your butts, and I want to hear your, your worries.

And then to address those very personally and to, uh, meet them on their path as well, I think is mm-hmm. The way forward. Right. And, um, to realize, like, and or invite them into it. Like, and we want you to help us because your family's been so faithful here at our parish and we want other families to be like you, like help us to do that.

Mm-hmm. And so it's, but it takes way more time. And that's the part that I think really, I hope I don't get shot for this. You can edit it out if you want, but I think most. Most of us, we don't wanna do anything that requires more of us. 

[00:40:44] Jim Jansen: I don't think you're the only one.

[00:40:45] Jodi Phillips: No. 

[00:40:46] Fr. Tim Donovan: And this is, you know, this model our, our resources, we say they're not plug and play.

Like we're not just gonna get a box and stick it in the hands of families. Like we need personal relationships, we need accompaniment, we need coaches to sit with them. Small groups, like we have a whole system that underpins our process, that supports that reality. If you just stick a box in the hand of a parent, yeah.

Some parents will do it and some will not. And you'll have the same, basically the same result as you would with anything else. Yeah. You know? And so I think that, um, yeah, it's just a matter of like, am I willing to change my. Method in my approach, am I willing to stop doing something so that I can do something new?

And that's a, that's a hard order, especially when we've been doing something for 40 years or 30 years. Mm-hmm. I mean, for someone to say, Hey, you need to now uproot all those things that you're doing and change your model, it's, it's humbling. 

[00:41:35] Jim Jansen: That's hard. So Father, I'm so glad you went there, because this is more than just pretty boxes.

Yeah. Like you're alluding to, there's a culture change, there's a mode of operation. There's these, I don't know what you would call 'em, there's these prerequisites or there's these other things that have to happen for the boxes, for pathways for these moments to work. You mentioned the inventories, right?

You, you, you meet with these, I'm sure there's other systems as well. Uh, you know, you meet with the families. There's, I'm sure there's other systems and I wanna give you a chance to talk about those. But what is really on my mind is I. Where do these missionary families come from? Right. The, these like families that are willing to extend themselves and accompany other families.

I mean, that's clearly this key ingredient that is outside of the box ha metaphor and like literally they're not part of the kit. Where do you find missionary families? 

[00:42:29] Fr. Tim Donovan: Good question. And a lot of times the parishes have a hard time doing that. My friends, let's just accept that that's a problem. Okay.

That we can't find missionary families in our church like that. You know, that like, that saddens me, but also makes me like. Lights the fire in me to like, we have to produce now missional families. I think our deacons can be a super help in here. Many of our deacons are married and have had families and come and accompany these families at the beginning process.

Mm-hmm. And we also say this, that our process makes missionary families. So if you can with in one year decide like I wanna do seek and I wanna do root, like that's going to pop out on the other side. Probably a more trained yes accompaniment disciple than probably most of our catechists, sadly, um, are popping out the other side.

And so just if they did that faithfully and showed up and were accompanied and intentionally like walked with in the midst of that, um, it would be producing now out of the other end of that disciple families. And we're seeing that in the parish who's using our resources. They tell us, like now that at the end of it they can say to the parents, Hey, would any of you be willing to go walk with some families next year?

And they're like. I could do that because why? Oh yes. Because they just saw it. The possibility was cast. And now they say, you know what I, you're not asking me to do 26 weeks in a row every single Tuesday at four o'clock. Yes. Like I can do that. I can walk with a family, I can check in with them. I can say hi to them at the grocery store.

I can do that. And so we're actually, actually in like basically this year we're going to be writing some extensive things on like a family coach that is, you know, different from a catechist. Catechists have their nature in the church. That's important. Mm-hmm. But you know, your family coaches don't necessarily have to be catechists.

As such in the same, same mind that the church structure in our current United States model has in the, in the documents. It's a very different situation. I could call a family coach a catechist if we were following new directory for catechesis, but most places are not. Most places are like, you have to have a five year certification to do this.

I'm like, that's one of the problems, right? It's like most families are not gonna go through a five-year certification process, but could very well be living out their faith, being able to say, you know what? I'm with you. Let's ask the catechist to come in and answer that question. 'cause I don't quite know and have the humility to say like, I don't have the answer, but I know might be someone who does.

And so kind of, I. Also freeing up systems, and you're gonna have a different person that you're gonna call into it. So the families who are at the parish who go to mass on Sunday just start like sitting next to them before, um, uh, what do you call it, mass starts and say, Hey, can I talk to you afterwards?

I have this like, crazy idea and I want your help with it. And those mom, that mom who maybe wasn't able to commit to 26 weeks in a row now is able to say like, I could do 10. Yeah. Like, I could come to 10 things and maybe hop on a phone call or a quick zoom meeting with somebody. You know, that kind of stuff.

Yeah. Did I answer your question or did kind of Yeah. 

[00:45:13] Jim Jansen: No, no. That's, I mean, it just like you, I mean, in some ways, like the missionary family is like, just start small, do some of the first little kits, seek and others, and it helps build missionary families and they're eager to accompany others when they've experienced it.

Father, can you connect just for, again, for, for listeners who are trying to wrap their minds around this, how do the missionary families, the support that you offer. To parishes that wanna move in this direction. And then like the boxes themselves, how do they all work together? 

[00:45:48] Fr. Tim Donovan: Sure. Yeah. So it's a big, crazy system, right?

And so, uh, we offer a number of pathways, overviews, and q and as on our website as well, like webinars that people can hop on if they're looking for a more like systematic expose of how this all works together. But in general here, the reality is we wanna get, first, get people into a small grouping through those seek experiences, and we're progressively moving them from an at.

Church to an at home model. So if you can see that it's a progressive piece. Mm-hmm. And so our boxes are the full at home stuff. And, but then they're also always connected to a kind of a certain at church supplemental encouragement preparation process as well. And so like in our root box context, the parents do a miniseries themselves, then they come to church with other parents, they process that experience together and then they get, are equipped to then go home and lead their kids through a family meeting, which is in a box form.

So what we're doing is we're moving them from the center of catechesis, from being an ad church experience to the center of that catechesis being in, in the living room experience. And so that's the relationship there. Mm-hmm. So the catechesis is given through these experiences, family meetings and boxes, but they're accompanied by it.

Uh, another disciple maker, parent or family who then checks in with them through these at church experiences. And then if maybe there's a problem or a, maybe a worry. So one of the cool parts about it is like this disciple maker family, you know, maybe a family's having a real hard time doing them at home can go over to that person's house and do a couple with them.

[00:47:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:47:13] Fr. Tim Donovan: They can actually go and model it. And so what we're seeing is we're, we're, we're just discovering the, the, the kind of realities much sooner. So many times in our faith formation process, it's like we only now know at the end of the process before they're supposed to get the drive through thing that they're not ready for it.

In our model, it's like you're not even gonna get to the immediate preparation if you're not on the faith freeway. We don't even want to get you into that piece. So many times our immediate preparation and parishes are like. Everything we're gonna give you everything in the context of your first community preparation and then like, hopefully, hopefully you're gonna get it when you come out.

And so the idea is that, um, really they're accompanying them so the families are doing that at home, but then coming and processing that information, being encouraged, hearing other families be like, yeah, that was hard for me too. Or like, we had a really hard night 'cause you know, this person was sick or this person was mad or something.

And then, and then they're realizing, okay, like it's, and we always say it's like practice. You don't stop taking your kid to practice when they have one bad game. 

[00:48:12] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:48:13] Fr. Tim Donovan: I love, love it. We keep doing it because we know that, that that process is gonna make them. Better. And so it's that, it's knowing that, and that's kind of in the, you know, the water of, of parents and stuff.

And they'll encourage each other in that, right? Like, yeah. Like we don't just tell, stop telling our kid to stop brushing his teeth. 'cause he was mad at us one night. Like, no, like, we gotta brush our teeth, right? 

[00:48:32] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:48:32] Fr. Tim Donovan: It's good for you. Our faith is good for us friends. Like, it's not to bind us. It's, it's good news.

Like, and if, if our faith has become something other than that, we have to first work with that component, which is what this progressive formation is supposed to deal with. 

[00:48:48] Jim Jansen: The families are do, they're using the resources, they're doing them at home, but then they're accompanied by. A mentor missionary family where they gather back together.

Then at the church, they get this kind of support group of other parents that missionary family can offer the encouragement and maybe even if needed, enter into their home and help them with that. Where do you all come in and helping parishes figure out how to do this? 

[00:49:15] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah, so our team, what we, we've kind of set up the model like this.

We want to form. Parish leaders to then form their like disciple maker families who then form families and parents specifically who then form children. Yeah. So we are very committed to walking with the parish leaders because the more that we can form them in those relational capacities, the more that they are then equipped with a model what that looked like for them.

So like this last year we did, and we will do again this year, we had like a director's retreat. So we actually led the directors through a retreat called Narrative and to identify their story, the different seasons in their life. And then we gave them that resource and we said, Hey, now we want you to take your family coaches and your catechists, and then we want you to lead them through narrative with your own stories and now modeling it for them so then they can then go and do that for the families.

And so, 'cause we are a small team and we have a big mission, big vision, but you know, yeah, we. But that's how the church works, right? I mean, it, it, that's how it's supposed to work. We're supposed to be forming, you know? And then expanding that discipleship model. I know you had mentioned focus, right? The, that you were involved in focus, like is that not the focus model?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Discipling, which then inspires others than to go disciple others. And this is how it's always worked from the beginning. It's how we went from 12 to billions of people. Yeah. And so it's always gonna be like that in our church. And we have to re kind of get to that apostolic kind of orientation and, uh, the mission of it.

We are also very committed to helping parishes. We also realize that each family's on a path, but every parish is on a path as well. And so we listen to the parish leaders. Some parish leaders are like, oh, I don't know. Some parish leaders are like, I want everything tomorrow. Like, and we're like, let's go.

And then we have, then we have some parish leaders who are like. I can't move everything tomorrow. And we're like, that's okay. How about we bring in this piece? 

[00:51:03] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:51:03] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. 

[00:51:03] Fr. Tim Donovan: How about we start with this part? Yeah. And build you into that. We did that with a parish up in, uh, Columbus, Ohio, and uh, now this year, and he was using lots of different programs.

He's like, you know what? This one produced the most fruit. I'm going full bore everything next year. Let's go. And so this, we're doing that. And then six parishes around him are now all looking at our resources because he's producing fruit. 

[00:51:23] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:51:24] Fr. Tim Donovan: So really that's the model. You know, I told the Lord I will do this as long as it produces fruit, and as soon as it doesn't, I'm out.

You know, like, yeah, we're going somewhere else. And I think that that is our commitment to you and to the parishes as well, is like, we want you to produce fruit. We're not here to sell resources. Yeah. Like we're here to produce fruit in families. You know? 

[00:51:41] Jim Jansen: That's so beautiful. And I love that you highlighted that.

Like you can begin in an incremental fashion. Yeah. 

This isn't like a all or nothing, you know, either chuck, everything you're doing, or like you can start just, just one box. Yeah. 

[00:51:53] Fr. Tim Donovan: Or pilot it with five families. Yeah, like order some boxes and, and do this spring and see how it goes. Because families talk and if it's meaningful and awesome, they're like, Hey, did you like see this?

Like we should definitely do this. You know? Yeah. And they start to talk and they get other people on board for you. Like you don't have to be the only one selling this to them, you know? It's the experience that changes people we found. 

[00:52:14] Jim Jansen: Okay. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk about that a little bit later.

We're gonna talk about a giveaway, 'cause we actually wanna give away some, some boxes here. Okay. We've got some here we go. Uh, that we love to like give parishes. Maybe just as, I mean this has been amazing as we kind of close up here, you know, we've talked about the fear and what, what a massive shift this is.

And like, oh my gosh, you're gonna be so disorienting. Father, what would you say to somebody who's like, excited? But also a little overwhelmed right now. They don't quite know where to begin, but they're at least willing to, to take a first step. 

[00:52:46] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. I would say don't be afraid. Hmm. I would say that if you feel like the spirit is prompting you and you something, seek after it.

Ask the Holy Spirit to come and move. That. I always pray this prayer of discernment. 'cause the Lord puts a lot of things on my heart, like, Lord, increase it. If it's from you, get rid of it if it's from something else. 

[00:53:03] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:53:03] Fr. Tim Donovan: And I just think that it helps us to be like, if this is from you, God, like I'm gonna trust that you're gonna also give me the grace to do it and open up the doors for it to happen.

Um, and that's how it's been for us. I mean, like, we've literally grown this thing through a pandemic. 

[00:53:15] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:53:15] Fr. Tim Donovan: Which has happened almost in no other situations, you know? And so I have to wonder, like that wasn't because I'm a genius, that was because God is, you know. Leading it. And I'm just very grateful for that.

I just know my limits, uh, and I know I'm not God, and I'm grateful for that part. And so just call upon that grace, you know, to trust it, but also to realize that you're not alone. There's tons of people across the United States. I talk with people every day on the phone and Zoom calls that have this on their heart as well.

And the Holy Spirit is moving the church in this direction in a powerful way. I talk to people, they use the same vocabulary I do. I've never talked to them before in my entire life. I haven't formed 'em. Yeah, I don't. And and that's stuff for me, a mark of true things. Yes. Is when you start to have like a shared heart, you know, because the, the Christian community was of one mind and one heart.

That's what the Holy Spirit does. It does. It unifies us, um, in a mind and a heart. And so, um, if you start to see that, just know that you're not alone, that's just community of people, um, who are doing that and on the front end of that, but also to know that, you know, leading change. Is hard. Um, but leading change is possible and we need people to do it.

And so if God is putting that on your heart, like God will take care of the rest. I wanna just, one more book recommendation is called Leading Change Without Losing It. Yes. Definitely recommend that piece. It's a great book, Canadian pastor, and he just talks about like creating a filter, like which of the comments that we want build our church on.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And being able to really like, move forward confidently that the vast majority, probably 80% of your people are going to be either early adopters, mid adopters, or people who are gonna be on for the ride. And so just know that it's, it's not as daunting. The very loud voices are not that many.

Mm-hmm. And they're just too distract, you know? Um, honor them, hear them, but also decide that we wanna move in a meaningful way. Yeah. That is gospel based, that is rooted in our documents and that is supported, um, by the spirit. 

[00:55:08] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I love that. We'll, we'll link that in the show notes. Leading Change. It's on my bookshelf.

Right. Leading change without losing it. Uh, Kerry, NH father, you, you mentioned the documents just. Any other resources? I mean, when we talked before we got started, we're like, okay, father, what was the inspiration for this? I love what you said. You're like, well, I mean, I read the church documents and I tried to do it, tried to be faithful like, oh, out pops a box.

I mean, not really, but out right. Out pops a a process of faithfulness to, you know, the church's wisdom about how we grow in faith, how we grow in faith in community and little communities called families. So. 

[00:55:47] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. 

[00:55:48] Jim Jansen: I love it. What would you recommend for, for those documents like I. What, what, what's on your reading list for people?

[00:55:53] Fr. Tim Donovan: I would definitely recommend, uh, the new directory for catechesis. I think that somehow God was like giving me a pretext for that in prayer. I just don't know how it all lined up. I mean, I've studied the previous ones. Um, they're not exactly as forward as this. Most current one is very forward, and it literally has a line in there that says, you know, buildings that look like schools are ill-equipped for catechesis.

Like, amen. That is a quote from the new directory for catechesis. Like, and no document before that would've said it that blunt. Right? And so, yeah, it was just one of those like, okay, move now like documents, like you have to, to make change now. But the previous documents, they all line that out. I mean, this is not new stuff.

Like my favorite, one of my favorite quotes is also like any of our. Documents on adult faith formation is the axis for cases. Just think I'm gonna engineer. If an axis is off center on a wheel, the wheel will oscillate and destroy everything around it. 

[00:56:51] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:56:52] Fr. Tim Donovan: But if the center is. In the center of the wheel, the wheel will roll and it will, you know, move forward.

And so I think that, that we have neglected that and we've, we've thought that, you know, somehow if I just get kids or my, I'm just the children's faith formation director, I don't deal with adults like, then we have this sense where we're we, we're off axis. And if our only faith formation for adults is RCIA, you know, we have to ask ourself like, is the Axis Health.

The yes is the axis in the center, you know, so there's those things. So any of those directories, the new evangelization documents are so good. There's a new one about changes of structure. I forget what the name of it is, but it's like a bulletin they call it, um, from the congregation of clergy. A lot of this stuff is just kinda lining up with it, but definitely the new directory for catechesis.

So funny, we, we decided to name our suite pathways a little bit after, in the spring of when we started. And about six months later, that new directory came out and it uses the word pathway 18 times in the document. We're like, well that's weird. That's so good. Um, 'cause it wasn't gonna be called Pathways before.

It had different names and then God was like, pathways. And you're like, okay. And so it's just funny to have that kind of lining up, um, and trusting that piece. Those other books I had mentioned, I definitely recommend, you know, Christen Dumb Absol Mission for sure. Leading Change without Losing It. Those are some real foundational ones that help to make a categorical.

I. Change a, change a structure. Yes. This is not, not just about a changing a program. Right. But it's about changing a structure. 

[00:58:17] Jim Jansen: This is more than a new curriculum.

[00:58:18] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. 

[00:58:18] Fr. Tim Donovan: It's not a new curriculum. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not plug and play. I'm sorry. So don't, yeah. 

[00:58:24] Jim Jansen: No, this is great. 

[00:58:24] Fr. Tim Donovan: They definitely wanna sell it like that.

[00:58:26] Jim Jansen: Father, where can people go if they wanna, like what's the website? If they wanna find out more about Pathways? 

[00:58:30] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. Our, um, nonprofit is called Faith and Family Life Catholic Ministries. So our website is very simple. F flc m.org. Frank, Frank, larry cindy mary.org. Um, and because sometimes people get f sound like other things I think sometimes, but, um Oh, sure.

That'll pop you up there. Um, pathways is actually just one of our ministries. Um, it is our formational suite. And so the way that we've structured the ministries is to be able to bring in other ministries that support families. So one that's in the works right now is called Wellspring. It's gonna be for marriages, um, and resources for.

Post marriage formation and mystagogical unpacking of the grace of your marriage. 'cause marriage is aren't, you know, just given to you on your wedding day. And that's it. Like, it's a perpetual sacrament. It's a alive sacrament, a a, a grace that keeps pouring in every time we decide to, to love each other.

You know. 

[00:59:23] Jodi Phillips: You just keep getting me so excited for it. 

[00:59:25] Jim Jansen: Wow. Yeah, I'm, I'm like, I'm like, we can go another hour. We could totally do this. Like, oh my gosh. Okay. Father, we will have to have you back just to talk about the other resources in, in ministries. Yeah. That's fantastic. 

[00:59:36] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah, they're, yeah. The Lord doesn't stop on my mind or my heart. So.

[00:59:40] Jodi Phillips: You know, father, you, you mentioned, um, earlier that experience you've had of talking to people a, around the country and, and that unity of, of vision and language and that was something I experienced and, and I remember that was why I was so excited. I was like, we talk the same language. And when I spoke with you and Pam and like, I was like, that is such a gift and so rare.

And as we've been embarking on a change, it has felt. Lonely at times. Mm-hmm. And as I've just watched you, you guys, I'm like, oh, it's happening again. You know, between you and, uh, Jim and, and Father Timothy Tim, like, this is your first time really meeting. And I'm like, oh, they've read all the same books. 

[01:00:19] Jim Jansen: I know it's creepy.

[01:00:21] Jodi Phillips: And there's. 

[01:00:22] Jim Jansen: You were right. You're like, he's our people. 

[01:00:24] Jodi Phillips: He's our people. Yeah. And, um, it's just a, a real gift of how the spirit has been moving here in Omaha and with you guys. Um, so I'm just. I just continue to be grateful for it. 

[01:00:33] Jim Jansen: Oh, look at that. Thank you so much. 

[01:00:35] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah, me too. 'cause it does feel, it can feel lonely in our camps as well.

I think we're the crazy people. Like we're going out on a branch, we're going on a limb. Amen. And we're saying like, Hey, like, Lord, I, this is where you feel like you're leading me, but everything around me is like impenetrable force it feels like. But that's starting to fall. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, we start to see that that's starting to fall apart and people now are like, what's working?

[01:00:56] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:57] Fr. Tim Donovan: Because they're re recognizing what that what they're doing is not working. And so I think people eventually are gonna come to a place. Um, the early adopters are gonna be the 10%, and that's who we look for right now. And the churches we're working with, uh, we don't want to convince the church that they have to go this way.

We want people to be like, I'm looking for something. Mm-hmm. And because those are the folks who are actually gonna be able to, I think, really transform the structure. We will work with everybody, obviously, but those are the people we're starting to work with initially because those are the folks who, who have the same heart.

We do. Who have the same desires for the church we do. Um, and who aren't people that we have to like, convince of what we're trying to do, you know? Um, but there are people we can walk beside and yeah. Encourage and. 

[01:01:37] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's awesome. 

[01:01:38] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. Say like, you're not so crazy after all. 

[01:01:40] Jim Jansen: Okay, one, one more time.

'cause I know you are speaking to people's hearts right now and they're like, that's me. That's me. I want but help. One more time. What's the website? How do they find you? 

[01:01:50] Fr. Tim Donovan: Yeah. F flc m.org. So that's Faith and Family Life Catholic Ministries. If you just Google us, you'll find it. Probably if you type in Pathways Formation Suite, you'll also find it, um, there on Google somewhere.

Hopefully the indexings working on our favor. Who knows? Mm-hmm. And then if you find that there, we also have an Instagram page, I think it is, uh, I think it's fff. CM Pathways is the, um, pathways page for Instagram. You can find us on there, but we have a ton of webinars coming up. This is kind of our formation.

Spring is formation time for us and bringing people onto the vision. So on our website, there are a ton of options to sign up for. They're all completely free. They're all completely no obligation. You just come on and we chat and we cast and we talk and all the things just like this. And you'll get, I'll be there.

So you get an opportunity to ask me any questions if you wanna talk to me. Um, but also we're very committed if you wanna set up a personal meeting with us. Like I said earlier, we're not here to sell resources. We're here to get resources in the hands of families that need 'em and that parishes that are open to using 'em.

Um, and so that gives us that freedom of being a nonprofit. Like we're not in it to do anything besides like do our mission, which is to rebuild the church one family at a time. 

[01:03:03] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Father, thank you. Thanks for what you're doing. Thanks for being with us today. This was so, yeah, so fun. Um, and very, very hopeful.

[01:03:11] Fr. Tim Donovan: Thank you. Appreciate it. God bless y'all. Keep hanging in there. God, us faithful. 

[01:03:14] Jim Jansen: Amen. Alright everybody, so this is what you need to know for the giveaway. We are such big fans of these resources that Father Tim and his team has put together that we bought a whole bunch. We have them ready and we wanna give them away.

So. Anybody who's interested, and sorry, only open to folks in the Archdiocese of Omaha. If you're interested in checking out the work that father Tim did, we're gonna send you one of these boxes. Here's what you need to do. We want you to share this episode out with just one friend, and then we want you to email Jodi Phillips.

Jodi's. Email is JM as in Mary Phillips, P-H-I-L-L-I-P s@archomaha.org. I'll repeat it, uh, again at the end here, but all you have to do is share this episode out with a friend and email Jodi, and we're gonna send you one of these boxes so you can get it in your hands so you can check it out. They're so cool.

They're so fantastic, and. We, we believe in it so much, we wanna give you a chance to, to hold one and, uh, explore it. So again, if you're interested, share this episode out with a friend and email Jodi JM phillips@archomaha.org. JM as in Mary, P-H-I-L-L-I-P s@archomaha.org. If today's episode was a gift to you, pause, you know, maybe pull over the side of the road if you're driving.

But just share this out with some friends, other people, families, you know, catechists, folks that, that, you know, need to hear this. Again, thanks for being with us, everybody. God bless.