[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with Dr. Steve Doran. Steve is a doctor, a neurosurgeon, to be precise. He's a deacon in the Catholic church. He's a student of the scriptures, and so naturally we have a great conversation about death. We talk about the conversations that you need to have with your loved ones.

The things that you need to think about as you approach this inevitable, if even uncomfortable, uh, reality in our lives. And we talk about how do you die? Well, what does it really mean? Where do our hearts and our minds need to be individually? How do we accompany others? This could be the most important conversation of your life, uh, or at least your death.

You're gonna love it. He shares about the key things that you need to make sure that you talk about and how to prepare. Not just at the, the season of, of death when life ends, but how do you live a good life? To be ready for a good death. Uh, you're gonna love it. Take a listen. 

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Dr. Steve Doen, welcome to the Quip Cast. How you doing?

[00:01:25] Dr. Stephen Doran: I'm doing great. I'm super excited to be here. Thanks for the, uh, invitation.

[00:01:28] Jim Jansen: Thank you. So you are fun, fun factoid here. You are the second Doen family member to, uh, join the Quip cast. And I have to ask you this really hard question here. Okay. You're, you're a doctor, a neurosurgeon, a deacon.

And still in your wife's shadow. Everybody knows Sharon and you're like, hi, I'm the other guy. I'm, I'm the, uh, the other one. 

[00:01:52] Dr. Stephen Doran: I am best known as Mr. Sharon Doran. Yes. Not, not frequently. I'll have patients come in to see me and say, um, you know, you're, you're that bible study teacher's husband. Yeah. I'm Mr. Sharon Doran. Can we just get on with this here? 

[00:02:05] Jim Jansen: So it's like.

[00:02:06] Dr. Stephen Doran: So no.

[00:02:06] Jim Jansen: Yes. And, and about your health. Uh, yeah. Uh, it's really funny. Well, yeah, Sharon was on a couple months ago. Wonderful conversation. So we're gonna work really hard. We're gonna make this a really good conversation and see if we can, you know, help, help you, uh, stay on par with your, your lovely wife here.

[00:02:23] Dr. Stephen Doran: It's a high bar, but we'll do our best. 

[00:02:25] Jim Jansen: Okay. So Steve, tell us a little bit about your story. 

[00:02:29] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah, you know, that's a very good question and, and sometimes something that I struggle with to, how do I answer that? And, and so in many ways I would consider myself a very lifelong Catholic, which is true. Born and raised in a Catholic family, Catholic education, married to a beautiful, faithful woman, Sharon.

And so my faith has been an important part of my life with times though, with exceptions, where I think that if, if I'm honest, what my story is, is that as I grew in my practice, in my career mm-hmm. And all those types of things, I became more and more. Oh, self-sufficient. 

[00:03:10] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:03:11] Dr. Stephen Doran: And, um, self-reliant, which can lead to self-indulgence, however you wanna put it. That

[00:03:17] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm.

[00:03:18] Dr. Stephen Doran: So there's a time in my life when I would say I was leading a very parallel life. There is Steve Doran, the outwardly faithful Catholic devoted man. But then there's also this other part of my life, which is more like career driven thinking of myself looking to, uh, succeed. I will sometimes say I've worship on the pagan altar of achievement.

I mean, you start off saying the things that I've done and, and it's true. And sometimes it's like, okay, my wife says, isn't that enough? You know, so I think achievement has been my idolatry. And so, so there's a time in my life where that achievement really kind of veered me off course. And then, um. All this, and there's a lot of details that I won't belabor.

All this kind of came crashing together a number of years ago, almost 20 years ago now. And we were actually in Israel. Sharon and I were on a, on a, on a pilgrimage the first time we went to Israel. We were with, uh, Tim Gray as it turns out. Uh, Tim and his wife, nice Sharon and I, and then Sharon's sister and her husband with a very small group.

And I remember it just all come crashing down. We were on the Sea of Galilee and, um. Motors, Scott, the story of Jesus being beckoned. I'm sorry, Peter being beckoned by Jesus to get out the boat. 

[00:04:38] Jim Jansen: Outta the boat. Yeah. 

[00:04:39] Dr. Stephen Doran: And I literally just started to weep, you know, just like. I want out this boat of what I'm in right now.

This boat of self-indulgence. Self-sufficiency, you know, self-reliance, achievement, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Just I'm there weeping. Um, I had this key chain, this metal that had, uh, Ignatius spirit, the Ccse, and I just started reading that a along take Lord, just all that I have, all I possess. And for me that was a very.

Fundamental shift in my life that, um, marked, uh, I guess if you wanna use the word reversion of sorts.

[00:05:14] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:14] Dr. Stephen Doran: But really kind of drawing me back to the recognition that I was leading a parallel life and I needed to have an integrated life. And, and I remember even coming home. Just for like the first few months after we got back home, I, when I would, when we go to mass, I would just weep, just weep after communion.

And boys would look at me and they'd bury their heads like, oh gosh, he's doing it again. Dad, would you just stop it with a crying business? You know? And, and even a, a, a good friend of ours, uh, deacon James Keening, who you've I'm sure met over the years, he asked my wife, he says. What happened to Steve, you know?

And so apparently I looked and acted different. I didn't realize it, and thanks be to God, some people did. But anyway, that was really a, a, a, a mar a change in my life. And then that got all brought together in and, and Sharon graciously inviting me along with her on this journey of ministry and teaching Bible.

[00:06:08] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:06:08] Dr. Stephen Doran: And the biggest gift she's ever given me was to. Invite me into that, you know? And so scripture has changed my life. Working with her in ministry has changed my life. It's our marriage. And so that's kind of the, that's not the, quite the, uh, elevator 32nd story, but that's as best I can in, I can kind of put it together in some sort of coherent narrative.

[00:06:28] Jim Jansen: Thank you for sharing that, because I think, I, I love the phrase you use, you know, like I kinda worshiped, you know, at the, uh, uh, idolatry of, of achievement. I, I'm gonna say something crazy here. I don't think you're the only one. 

[00:06:42] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. 

[00:06:42] Jim Jansen: And, but, but I think I appreciate your particular witness to that because it seems like that form of idolatry, which is very subtle, affects almost everyone, particularly, you know, it's, I think it's particularly for, you know, for us, us men, but not everyone has, if I can say it this way, the resume.

Neurosurgeon, doctor, you know, deacon, whatever. Ha has like this successful ministry has like kind of the resume to say, and you know what to use the words of St. Paul, it's all rubbish without Christ. 

[00:07:19] Dr. Stephen Doran: Right, right. 

[00:07:19] Jim Jansen: Right. Like, I don't, you know, like I feel like some, some people say, well, if I just finally get that level of income, if we just finally have that house, if I finally get that recognition, if I finally achieve that.

And you're like, no, I've been there. It's just not. It's, it's not where it's at. 

[00:07:35] Dr. Stephen Doran: No. It's a hamster wheel. And, and yeah. And it just, it just leaves you lacking and, and the, the thirst is never slaked. And so it was actually a big part of my discernment to the diaconate was like, okay, is this just another achievement. Just a spiritual achievement now, right? Yeah. And that was a huge part of my discernment. Like, no, this is a true call. It's not because I wanna put another notch in my belt, just in the spiritual. 

[00:08:00] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:01] Dr. Stephen Doran: Part now, but it's something I continue to have to be aware of. Be mindful of, because it still creeps in all the time, every day, you know?

Right. So it's, it's like all challenges in our life, they tend to stay with us. Mm-hmm. You know, and so that's, that's one that continues to be one that I have to, may have this awareness of. 

[00:08:20] Jim Jansen: You know, I really appreciate you're talking about, like, there can be a spiritualization. It's like, fine, you know, the, you know, the, the houseboat, the car, the job title, whatever.

Even when you've. Move beyond that, there can still be a spiritualization of achievement. 

[00:08:37] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yes. 

[00:08:37] Jim Jansen: Talk about that. How did you, how do you resist that? 

[00:08:40] Dr. Stephen Doran: Quite frankly, my, I'm blessed to be with a, a woman who really knows me well. She knows my strengths, she knows my weaknesses, and she. Is not adverse to, to kind of gently and maybe sometimes more than gently say, Steve, you need to check yourself here. I mean.

[00:08:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah, she calls you out. Oh, that's so good. 

[00:08:58] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. I mean, and it's good and, and, and I'm, I don't always receive it initially as well as I should, but, but I think that's one of the beautiful things that as we go through, live the. The gift of somebody who knows you, who loves you, wants what's best for you, whether it's your spouse or if you're not married, a good friend or a spiritual director. 

[00:09:13] Jim Jansen: A religious community, anybody who can be honest.

[00:09:15] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yes. Yeah, it's huge. And, and here's the problem, is that when people are in positions of authority and power, and I will readily admit, I'm in. Those positions at work. 

[00:09:24] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:25] Dr. Stephen Doran: They tend not to want to be honest with you. And, and so they. 

[00:09:29] Jim Jansen: Absolutely. 

[00:09:30] Dr. Stephen Doran: So they'll, so having someone who can be honest with you is the best thing in this.

Uh, and so, yeah, I mean that's, that's what keeps me grounded, you know? And. 

[00:09:37] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:09:38] Dr. Stephen Doran: As Sharon is fond of saying, yeah, you may be a brain surgeon, but you're not a rocket scientist, so go take the garbage out. You know, so, but, uh. 

[00:09:46] Jim Jansen: No, that's, that's so good. But I, I appreciate that. I mean, you know, I have a smaller, uh, scope of leadership.

Responsibility. Right. You know, not, not a neurosurgeon, not, uh, not an ordained, uh, minister. And yet I have to labor to make sure that I get authentic negative feedback that, that people I have to labor to create an environment on my team amongst my peers where people can challenge me. Because the higher you go in leadership, the more quickly you get blinded and everybody.

Out of fear, out of a desire for what you can offer or bless them with as a leader. They stop being honest. They stop telling you that you got, you got a booger on your nose. 

[00:10:28] Dr. Stephen Doran: That's right. That's right. Oh, Jim, you got a booger on your nose right now. Sorry. 

[00:10:32] Jim Jansen: Dave, oh, you're a good friend. That's great. I'm so glad we only published the audio.

Okay, so Steve, I wanna transition here. You know, I wanna talk about your book, how to Die. Well, a uh, Catholic Neurosurgeon's Guide to the End of Life, but just thematically. There, there's a connection to this. We don't maybe always use these words, but the, like part of the healing of idolatry, uh, of any sort of false devotion contact with our mortality tends, tends to do that.

As we enter into this conversation, I just want to give you a chance to maybe put your deacon on your, your deacon hat on a little bit. This can be really sensitive, you know, as we, as we talk about. And certainly, I mean, there's not much that's more personal than death, you know, and, uh, I don't think we're gonna spend the whole time here, but as we talk a little bit about some of the boundaries of church teaching, of how we honor and show dignity to those who are dying, this can be very person.

If you're in the process of walking with someone, if you yourself, are being faced with your mortality, if you have walked with someone and you've been through the, the, the confusing malaise, I think we wanna be clear, like we have no desire to, you know, to condemn anybody. Those are the most challenging circumstances.

We want to encourage and educate. Offer life and hope. What kind of disposition should we enter these conversations with? 

[00:11:51] Dr. Stephen Doran: Well, the immediate word is humility. I mean, because I think the, the, if I put on my doctor hat, the temptation is to tell people what to do. I'm the authority, here's what's best for you.

That, uh, paternalism that, that can creep into any interaction between patient and physician. So always, always, always coming in a posture of humility, recognizing that I don't know what's going on behind this person's presentation to me, what their life is, what the challenges they have, what, you know. So one of humility is mm-hmm.

Has to be the immediate posture in this. There can never be condemnation ever. God is the only judge. He is a perfect judge. And so entering into a relationship with someone who is seriously ill or dying, whether it's as a care provider, physician friend, humility. And one of like, you just can't judge people.

Mm-hmm. You know, and you know, someone may push back, well, you know, this person was a notorious sinner and they did well. Well, that's for God, you know? Mm-hmm. My, my desire in interacting with anyone who's seriously ill is to be open to hear what they need, what their desires are, to hear their fears. Hear what they're looking forward to.

Some people are ha you know, who are Sally, mature. The, the death isn't a scary thing. Mm-hmm. Other people, I would say the majority of people just don't wanna think about it. They don't even wanna go there. Can't tell you how many times I'd be in the hospital and. You know, someone maybe elderly in their, you know, seventies or eighties suffers some acute event, a stroke or something like that.

And as we go through the process of what our appropriate steps, you know, asking the spouse like, okay, what do you think your spouse would anticipate or expect in this situation? And it always shocked me, like, well, we just never talked about it. Mm-hmm. We, we, we just didn't do that. And so I think that.

Also that posture in interacting with someone is, again, it comes with this non-judgmental attitude. It's like, okay, that's fine. We're, but we're here now. How can, how can we, what can we do best to, to go forward from here? 

[00:14:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah. You've had a, you know, professional formation par excellence, again, as a, as a neurosurgeon, a spiritual formation as a deacon.

I want you to talk a little bit about some of your personal experiences that form. Kind of the convictions and your attitudes about how to die well?

[00:14:21] Dr. Stephen Doran: So the first thing that comes to mind, and it's also what I, what I led with in this book is the story of my father-in-law, Mike Lewandowski, Mike, uh, so my wife Sharon, her family, there were seven kids.

Five, five girls. And I remember when we were dating, dated for five years, got to know Mike really well. He was just a very. Humble, um, but very, very powerfully spiritual man, truly, uh, the head of his household in, in the truest sense from a spiritual, uh, perspective. So I knew him well dating all these years and then even after marriage.

But one of the things that was really a pivot point for me was when Mike went through his own process of dying. Ironically, even though I'm in a field, um, where death is, you know, kind of always lurking around the corner, a large part of my career, both in training and afterwards, was that this idea that, okay, you know, death is the enemy.

We're gonna do everything we can to defeat it. But then inevitably that we lose that battle and then we move on. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, death was kind of just something you had to manage, you know? Well, when Mike was diagnosed with leukemia, he went through some treatment here in Omaha at the med center, and it was clear after a while that just wasn't gonna go, so he went home to die.

It was just, I, I still am amazed looking back at that. So then went, he went home to Grand Island, uh, modest house, you know, three bedrooms with some basement bedrooms, and the whole Lewandowski family essentially moved in. 

[00:15:50] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:15:50] Dr. Stephen Doran: And even at that time, there must have been at least 20 grandkids or something. And the house was just taken over by family. 

[00:15:56] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:15:56] Dr. Stephen Doran: And Mike was in his bed. People would come in, it was, it was prayer, it was music, and in the meantime, the, the grandkids were out playing restaurant or they were at the park. Mm-hmm. And so it was this beautiful experience where death and life were just beautifully intero, interwoven with one another in a way that just was, was very impactful for me.

And even then at, uh, Mike's funeral. Again, he was a telephone repairman. He was not someone famous or wealthy or powerful. The, the place was just packed. I half dozen priests on the altar would've been more, but there was some event going on, and, and not that the number of priests is a measure of your holiness, but, but there is just, there is just this beautiful sense of, here was a holy man.

[00:16:40] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:41] Dr. Stephen Doran: Who, who has died and we are here to celebrate that fact, that fact that he loved Jesus. I remember. Before he died, the priest was gonna do, the homily came and visited with him, and he said, well, Mike, anything you would want me to say at your funeral? Well, Mike said, well just preach Jesus. And so at the funeral, the priest said.

[00:17:03] Jim Jansen: What year was this?

[00:17:04] Dr. Stephen Doran: This would've been in 1998.

[00:17:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:17:06] Dr. Stephen Doran: You know, and the priest said. Well, when you talk about Mike, you're preaching Jesus, you know, so that was a very impactful time in my life to my, the death of my father-in-law. There's been obviously other ones, my own father, my mother-in-law, my patients. But that was kind of what really kind of moved me away from death as this abstract thing to a very personal, uh, journey that people go through.

[00:17:28] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. I, I want to give you a chance to maybe expound a little bit because I've heard it said that people tend to die the way they live. Talk, talk a little bit more, particularly again about your father-in-law, how he lived and how that truth plays out People, people die the way they live. 

[00:17:46] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. It's, I mean, this has been no, uh, recognized for centuries. St. Robert Omere wrote a book to Die Well, how to Die Well. R is Mor Ande. And basically he said very simply, if you want to die, well, you need to live well. 

[00:17:59] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:18:00] Dr. Stephen Doran: But that Al also begs the question, okay, number one, what's a good death? And, and number two, what is a good life? Yeah. And he spends much of the book talking about the good life is one of, of living a life of virtue.

Frequenting the sacraments, uh, seeking reconciliation, asking for forgiveness. Those things that are core to what we believe as Christians, as those who believe in Jesus. Following those very basic things, you know, you know, at the end of the day when we die, I'm, I'm convinced there's just gonna be one question.

You know, it's like, how well did you love Steve? Mm-hmm. How well did you love? And everything else will flow from that. So I think, yeah, he basically said, you know, uh, to die, well one must live well. So to live well, you know, live a life of virtue, the sacraments, things like that. But then it says, okay, then what is good death?

[00:18:46] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:47] Dr. Stephen Doran: Right? So the natural, the natural question after that is, what is a good death? Well, in the eyes of society, a good death is one where you are, uh, pain-free, surrounded by family, which is all very good. Don't get me wrong, that's a very good thing. But that cannot be the mark of a good death by itself because you can see as a very small step to say, well, if a good death is where you're PainFREE surrounded by family and kind of comes about in its own, on your own terms. 

[00:19:15] Jim Jansen: No grief, no anxiety, no regrets.

[00:19:17] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. Yes. Oh, wonderful. Great. If that happens, wonderful. But what happens if that isn't the case, which is more often than not. It makes people think that, Hmm, if that's the mark of a good death, then what can I do to have that type of death? Which means what can I do to orchestrate that type of death, which is let one small step away from assisted suicide in euthanasia.

[00:19:36] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:19:36] Dr. Stephen Doran: You know, I've been accompanying a, a coworker in this area and, and, and that's like, I wanna do this on my own terms, you know? 'cause I want, what, what I believe to be is a good death. So, but we know that, I mean, Jesus died the. Good death of the greatest death par excellence. Right. He was isolated, he was tortured, he was, I mean, and his was the, the redemptive death for us all, or, yeah.

Or, or even look to the saints, I mean, how many of them died, you know, isolated, tortured. So that type of death by itself cannot be the, the, the mark of a good death. So then what is a good death? Right? 

[00:20:12] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:20:12] Dr. Stephen Doran: Well, big question. I think that the ultimate desire for a good death is one. Which you are in union with God to the best that you can be on this side of the veil.

And how that looks is different for every person, you know, and so conforming our lives to Christ is what, what makes us have a good death and, and how that plays out. Well, that's very individual for each person. 

[00:20:37] Jim Jansen: Steve, I wanna, I keep, I keep go kind of going after your hats here, but I, I want you to put on the, uh, right, the like scripture student hat.

Where do we, like what passages, stories, uh, what, what do we meditate on? What do we think about to maybe kinda rewire our understanding of what it means to live well and what it means to die? Well, 

[00:21:01] Dr. Stephen Doran: well, I think scripture throughout. St. Paul in particular, but even, even in, uh, the gospels, there's this, this call to detachment from the world, not from people, but from worldly things.

[00:21:14] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:14] Dr. Stephen Doran: You know, that St. Paul, throughout Romans other passages, really calls on us to say, you know, it's all for Christ. Everything else is, is nothing. You know, Jesus is called, you know, in, in the gospel is to rid ourselves of attachments to things. I think that that's part of that step is to, to recognize that we are here for a period of time, but in the big picture, a short period of time, and that, you know, the things that we grasp onto, the things that we grasp onto.

[00:21:44] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:45] Dr. Stephen Doran: Ultimately crumble and fail and, but what we receive and allow to flow through us, that is grace and love prospers and grows. Anything we clinging to just crumbles at the end. But what we allow to flow through is love, grace, it grows. 

[00:21:59] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. So it's, it's probably helpful just, just at the, like, just the practical kinda level here. When, when you are contemplating your own death, um, when you're thinking about, okay, you know, your, your desires, if you're accompanying someone, what are, just again, what are some of the kind of non-negotiables of walking with a, with a loved one. Who might be dying or thinking about your own death. 

[00:22:24] Dr. Stephen Doran: So if we wanna kind of drill down into some very specific bioethical issues, which is, I think what you're asking. There's a few. Number one, and by far away, the most important one is, is that we cannot cause someone to die, nor can we hasten their death intentionally. 

[00:22:41] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:41] Dr. Stephen Doran: That's, that's a non-negotiable. There's so many things that fall under that. The issue, for example, of assisted nutrition, and that's a big one that comes up with people like, okay, well do I need to put a feeding tube in or not? And when do I need to do, and when do I not do it. 

[00:22:56] Jim Jansen: Right. 

[00:22:57] Dr. Stephen Doran: That's a very important question, one that there isn't a blanket answer for, but the ultimate what guides us is the, the underlying principle is that we cannot. Do anything to hasten a person's death and we cannot do something that actively kills somebody.

[00:23:13] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:13] Dr. Stephen Doran: So that's kind of the, at the very basic level for all these questions. 

[00:23:17] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Which is, which is helpful. Which then I, again, not that we wanna go into the details, but there's a nuance, you know, can nutrition benefit this person? Or would, you know, providing, you know, additional food, additional water, is that potentially going to cause harm for them?

There's like, yeah, there's like, yeah. Some nuance to that, but I love that the fundamental principle is like, we can't hasten someone's death. 

[00:23:41] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. And the issue of nutrition is, is at, at its fundamental level, is that. Our dignity as being made in the image and likeness of God means that we are entitled to certain basic things.

We are entitled to food. We're entitled to shelter in a very simple way. We can't starve someone to death and we can't allow them to die of, uh, dehydration. That said, there are circumstances where, which assisted nutrition, which is what we're talking about. Maybe burdensome. That is, the benefits of it are far outweighed by the downside to it.

Mm-hmm. Sometimes as the end of life approaches that as the body shuts down, that that nutrition can't be absorbed and things like that. So there's not an. There's not an absolute, you always have to do one thing or the other. 

[00:24:25] Jim Jansen: Right? 

[00:24:26] Dr. Stephen Doran: But you can't starve someone to death. You can't allow someone to die of, of, uh, dehydration.

[00:24:31] Jim Jansen: Again, imagining, you know, you find yourself in a caregiving role or just a, an accompaniment role. Maybe you're the, the decision maker. You know, you have like kind of medical power of attorney. Maybe you don't. How do you, how do you sort that out? Like, again, for those you know, are there, because there is sometimes helpful medical counsel, sometimes not, sometimes there, there can be a sense of, you know, this person is just an object, they've been kind of depersonalized and you, you get the sense that the medical team is ready to move on. What advice do you have for those who are accompanying, who find themselves trying to sort out those questions in real time? 

[00:25:11] Dr. Stephen Doran: That's a good question. Now there's, there's two things that, there are certain decisions that really are kind of immediate and, and so a situation where someone suffers a severe medical event where you have to make a decision right away.

Like, do we put 'em on a ventilator? Do we not do that? Those types of things. So there are some situations where you, you have to make an immediate decision. I, I think the fallback in those situations, unless is very explicitly stated in advance, you know, or it's very clear, you know, it's like, okay, let's.

Let's do what we need for right now to make sure this person keeps, uh, stays alive and then step back. You know, yes, there are things that need immediate answer, but a lot of times not right. And sometimes you just need space and a chance to absorb and chance to come back and ask more questions. 

[00:25:57] Jim Jansen: Yep. To to pray, to think, yes. To talk, get counsel from a, a priest or another trusted, uh, spiritual advisor. 

[00:26:05] Dr. Stephen Doran: Absolutely. I think that, that, what I would encourage people is. Most situations don't give into the sense of being rushed or being 

[00:26:16] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. 

[00:26:16] Dr. Stephen Doran: Forced to make a decision and exactly your point to think, to pray, seek counsel, those types of things is super important in those situations.

[00:26:24] Jim Jansen: Steve, if someone doesn't have. Access to their pastor, to a trusted spiritual advisor. Are there, are there general sources? I'm thinking, uh, your book, the, you know, uh, trusted places on the internet where some of these questions, I'm, I'm thinking chat. GPT just doesn't seem like my companion for this.

[00:26:43] Dr. Stephen Doran: Right, right.

[00:26:44] Jim Jansen: Where do we go? 

[00:26:45] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah, so, um, depending on what level of detail you want, a very good resource is that the. The National Catholic Bioethics Center, and they have a, I think it's like a front and back or maybe three page document that kind of talks about issues at the end of life. Talks about it at a, uh, at a level that's high enough where you don't get too bogged down in details, but also detailed enough that it gives you some specific guidance.

I think they charge you three bucks to download it, you know? Sure. And I was just looking at it the other day. I had a priest reach out to me and ask me this exact same question, you know? Okay. What's a good resource out there? The, the bishops just came out with a new version of the ethical and religious directives.

That's probably more than most people would want to look at. Mm-hmm. It's there, it's very detailed of great document. But I think, I think the National Catholic Bio Center, the kind of their, they're just, their white paper on, on Endof Lifes is a really good, really good option. 

[00:27:35] Jim Jansen: Steve, you know, related to all of this, and you mentioned it earlier, you don't want to get caught.

I mean, it's, it's so funny. It's like, how do you get caught off guard by death, right? I mean, a literally universal phenomenon and we're like, whoa, didn't see that coming. Nevermind. You know, that we kind of live in our mo mortality all the time. What are some things that we have to consider and think through and that we should discuss with a loved one, so that these times can be more peaceful, well deliberated.

[00:28:07] Dr. Stephen Doran: So I think, I think having that conversation in advance is important and not just a conversation, as you mentioned earlier, earlier. Praying about it, thinking about it. Say for example, the issue of pain control. I think people just kind of assume that people wanna be out of pain. At all costs. Well, don't make that assumption.

I've, I've, myself have told Sharon and she's told me, she said, I wanna, I'm okay with, I don't wanna, I'm not a, you know. And not seeking pain, but I would rather endure some pain so that I can be present to my family, to my caregivers. 

[00:28:40] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:28:41] Dr. Stephen Doran: That, that to me isn't my priority, you know? Right. When I'm dying is pain control Now for other people. It is. That's okay. I'm not saying 

[00:28:47] Jim Jansen: Right, but. 

[00:28:47] Dr. Stephen Doran: Prioritizing pain control is not a bad thing. 

[00:28:49] Jim Jansen: Right. But I said the same thing. It's like, you know, it was like honey. If I'm in so much pain that I'm getting close to despair, like turn it up a notch. But I'd like to be conscious. I'd like to be present. I'd like to have something to offer.

And you know, I, and it's, it's gonna be a judgment call as to where I'm at in terms of the threshold to be able to tolerate. 'cause sometimes, you know, certain forms of death, certain illnesses can be exceptionally painful. 

[00:29:13] Dr. Stephen Doran: Right? 

[00:29:13] Jim Jansen: But I don't want to be asleep and numbed completely, unless I have to be. 

[00:29:19] Dr. Stephen Doran: And see, that's an important discussion because there's, there's not a value judgment that your way is better, right? 'Cause there are people who know, I mean, pain is, would be over. I mean, significant pain would overwhelm them. And then as such, become overwhelming for those surround 'em. So just in having that general conversation is super important. And, and I think that, keep in mind though, at the end of the day, none of us can predict the circumstances we're going to die under.

Right. And that's the problem with, with living wills, for example. Mm. And that's one question that comes up a lot is, and you, and you can't go into a hospital without being asked about a living will. And so there's, there's a, there's a category of documents called advanced directives. And advanced directives are basically you outlining your wishes in advance of, of what you would want to happen when you're near death.

Well intentioned, but potentially problematic because as I said, none of us can anticipate how we're gonna die, and if we get too explicit in what we think we need and want, it can potentially. Creates some conflict at the end of a life. Now, this of course, presumes that you're not awake and able to make those decisions yourself. 

[00:30:27] Jim Jansen: Right?

[00:30:28] Dr. Stephen Doran: So I advise people. I I don't really think you need a living will, and if you do, just be very general about your desires, right? What you really need is a, a durable power of attorney, uh, so that you have a person who knows you, loves you, understands your faith, who can help guide decision making. Because, you know, people say, well, I never wanna be put on a ventilator and don't, you know, you know, pull the plug.

Well, okay, fine, but do you realize that you've got a treatable pneumonia? And in two days you'll be fine? You know? Oh, well of course I want that. So again, being very, no, just having someone who guides those decisions is, I think the really the only document that anybody needs. 

[00:31:01] Jim Jansen: Thank you. That is, that is so helpful. And, and I mean, I appreciate the, the example there because to try and say I do or do not ever want this particular medical procedure. My gosh, that's a foresight that I don't know if anybody really has. 

[00:31:17] Dr. Stephen Doran: No, they don't. And what it's been taken another step, without getting too granular here, there's something called a pulses, P-O-L-S-T, physician's order for a lys sustaining treatment.

That actually becomes an order in your chart. And as opposed to me putting on a, a non-medical document, well, I don't want this, I want that. There are these. Statements that actually become part of your medical record that become very difficult to undo, you know, even by the power of attorney. So I really strongly advise people not to use a pulse, P-O-L-S-T.

Mm-hmm. Physician order for Life sustaining treatment and just really focus on and, because when you have a medical power of attorney, it kind. I ought to encourage you to have the discussions that we're talking about right now, right? I'm gonna choose my spouse, I'm gonna choose my best friend. I'm gonna choose my, uh, a fellow priest.

[00:32:01] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:02] Dr. Stephen Doran: Okay. Then let's talk about this then. You just don't wanna put that name down on a document. 

[00:32:07] Jim Jansen: Right? Well, and. Can I state the obvious? And they should know. 

[00:32:12] Dr. Stephen Doran: True. 

[00:32:13] Jim Jansen: True. Good boy. I've heard stories of people are like, what? What do you mean? I'm the. 

[00:32:16] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. 

[00:32:17] Jim Jansen: What do you mean? I'm the, I'm the executor of the will, which is not quite the same thing, but like, tell your friend.

[00:32:22] Dr. Stephen Doran: Right.

[00:32:22] Jim Jansen: Be a friend to your friend.

[00:32:23] Dr. Stephen Doran: That's right.

[00:32:23] Jim Jansen: By the way. 

[00:32:24] Dr. Stephen Doran: Right. No important communication. 

[00:32:26] Jim Jansen: Always. Yeah. I This job for you, Steve. Anything else on that, on that end? That we did, we did. We need to make sure that we have this discussion with our loved ones, that we consider this for ourselves. 

[00:32:37] Dr. Stephen Doran: If we have certain basic principles, everything flows from that. I mean, we can get super, you know, detailed on a lot of stuff. The book has a lot of, uh, things mm-hmm. That I think are helpful to think about in advance. But, but I think if we start with these basic premises that we've talked about, I think everything else can flow from that. 

[00:32:54] Jim Jansen: Beautiful. Okay. Then I want to pivot. I wanna lean in. Uh, we could keep putting all your hats on here. I want you to put on your deacon hat here. Uh, I, I heard a, a speaker once say that everyone actually lives forever. What's in question is whether or not they live in heaven or in hell for all eternity. Steve, talk a little bit about how the good news, how, uh, evangelization can appropriately find a place in the dying process.

[00:33:23] Dr. Stephen Doran: Well, I think it's a, it ought to be a big part of that, uh, evangelization because that. Ultimately what we're here for is Union with God, and death is, like it or not, the necessary way by which we achieve that ultimate union with God. As great as the sacraments are, as great as the Eucharist, all, all that. Wonderful. But ultimate union with God only occurs after death.

So. It's, it's death is scary. I'm not trying to minimize it. And it's, it's hard. It can be difficult, but that's our goal. Our goal is to get to heaven. And I know we kind of throw around that phrase almost glibly, but when we drop back, that's why we're here, is to have union with God. And that only occurs in heaven and death is the way by which we get there.

I do wanna tell you a story about this. Father Petaca. He wouldn't mind me telling the story at all. It's in the book. Father Petaca, maybe some of your listeners knew him. He was a priest. He's now passed away. Super faithful guy. He was really involved with the IPF Institute for priestly formation. Yes.

Involved in my formation as a deacon, just this beloved man. And he had a, you know, quite a lot of, of health problems. And, um, he had asked me to just, Hey, can you be there? Can you be there when I'm dying? Mm-hmm. You know, just to help me out. And, and I remember it was in the height of COVID. He was in the hospital again, sick, literally.

On death store, as you call it, and, um, went in, we visited, we prayed, came back the next day. He survived and went home. I mean, and, and this happened more than once, but afterwards he's like. 

[00:34:49] Jim Jansen: My dad did the same thing to us. I don't know how many times I was driving over, you know, to the hospital thinking, all right, I'm saying my last goodbyes. And then, you know, and then we're like, you know, playing checkers the next day.

[00:34:59] Dr. Stephen Doran: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:59] Jim Jansen: Or work a puzzle. It's like, all right. 

[00:35:01] Dr. Stephen Doran: But with Father Pat. So I, we kind of did a debriefing after one of these events a while later, and I said, father Pat, can we, can we go back and talk about this episode? And he said, oh.

I nearly had the perfect death. I said, well, tell me about that. I said, I, I was, had my family there. I received the anointing. I was right with the Lord. And the biggest temptation that I feared the most, the, that didn't happen. I said, what is that? Because, because the reality is, is that the evil one lurks at the most holy times in our lives.

[00:35:32] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:32] Dr. Stephen Doran: And the beginning and the end of life are amongst the most holy and the evil one is lurking. And so I said, well, what was that temptation? And he said, I didn't have the temptation to despair. 

[00:35:42] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:35:43] Dr. Stephen Doran: And I said, despair about what? That there's nothing. 

[00:35:46] Jim Jansen: Hmm? 

[00:35:47] Dr. Stephen Doran: That there's nothing. His biggest fear that as death approached, he would be overwhelmed by the despair that there's nothing, and that my life was for nothing.

[00:35:55] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:56] Dr. Stephen Doran: I was a priest for nothing. And he didn't have that temptation. And it was the greatest consolation for him. That that wasn't there. 

[00:36:03] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:04] Dr. Stephen Doran: And it was, it was just like, I almost had the perfect death. You know? I didn't have that fear. I knew that there's something, uh, afterwards surrounded by. And anyway, so I just say that, that, um, the, this idea that there's nothing after our lives here, something that we have to, to gently but firmly push back against and say, no, there is something.

Our lives do matter. They matter now, but they also matter for what happens after we die. 

[00:36:30] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Steve, how do we, how do we accompany someone well through the, the, the dying process a again 'cause I think we've noticed, uh, we were talking before, you know, before we turned on, on the mics, how, how deep personalized, uh, some of, uh, you know, medical care can be.

And feel free if you just wanna talk about that, that experience. 'cause maybe if someone has not been close to that themselves or they haven't accompanied someone, it can be surprising and shocking. So maybe let's start there, like talk about the, the experience of depersonalization and then let's talk about maybe how we can be an anecdote, uh, or antidote, uh, to that.

[00:37:11] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up because I think. Everything that's wrong with medicine. There's a lot of good in medicine, don't get me wrong, but all that's wrong with it, uh, stems from this depersonalization that occurs in our lives in general, but particularly acutely in medicine where the person who is sick and especially when they're dying, becomes a task, for lack of a better word, that, you know, I think medicine, treats, illness and dying, especially as the enemy. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna fight the enemy. We're gonna go after, we're gonna take out the enemy. And, and when that battle is lost, and it will be lost eventually, 'cause obviously we all die. Eventually the battle against death is lost. And then the temptation is, well, let's just move on to the next thing. And in the meantime, the patient is this kind of in the background almost like this.

[00:38:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:38:05] Dr. Stephen Doran: Interesting. Interested observer at best, you know? 

[00:38:08] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:38:09] Dr. Stephen Doran: And, and so. 

[00:38:09] Jim Jansen: Hey, hey, you're talking about me.

[00:38:12] Dr. Stephen Doran: It's, it's true. You go on rounds in a hospital, everybody's kind of outside the door talking and the patient's in there, and there's this token effort to engage the patient. So, and, and we could talk about depersonalization for hours and alone, but I think the fact that people. Are seen as, as a means to an end or an object or a task is at the core problem of, of medicine at the individual level. At the caregiver level.

[00:38:34] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:34] Dr. Stephen Doran: At the insurance level, at the, at the policy level. That is the problem that we see. So what is the anecdote? Well, I. I think that's what leads into this idea of well, accompaniment and, and what does that really mean? We use that word a lot accompany. 

[00:38:47] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:47] Dr. Stephen Doran: Well, at its root, the word accompany when you break it down is, uh, is com, C-O-M, which means, uh, to eat. Uh, and pane is bread. Uh, so when we say we're accompanying someone, we're eating bread, we're breaking bread with that person. 

[00:39:00] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:01] Dr. Stephen Doran: Which is a very intimate thing. I mean, we think about the last supper, right? Uh, that right breaking of bread, that intimacy that evocative image of Christ surrounded by his disciples of the apostles, literally breaking bread.

So accompaniment means to be really in deep, intimate relationship with somebody. You can't do that from an arm's length. You can't do it from across the street. Now, obviously, there's appropriate boundaries for a healthcare giver. You know, you're, you're not their loved one, but that doesn't mean you can't enter into that relationship in a very, uh, profound way to truly accompany them.

I, uh, hear caregivers, you know, professionals say, well, you know, I can't get too close to my patient. You know, that's, that's, you know, that's breaking a boundary. Well, yes and no. Yes. I mean, you, you do have to maintain appropriate professional boundaries, but you can't use that as an excuse. 

[00:39:47] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:47] Dr. Stephen Doran: To objectify the patient and, and because we are all called to love each other and to love in, in a, uh, optimistic sense is, you know, to will the good to the other for the sake of the other. So I, as a caregiver, as a physician, ought to love my patients. 

[00:40:03] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:04] Dr. Stephen Doran: That means I will their good for their own sake. And so that means I can only do so, I can only love them. If I'm in relationship with them and each relationship has different levels of intimacy, but that's the antidote to the depersonalization of medicine is true accompaniment. Whether it's by the family members, the caregivers, professionals, society.

[00:40:22] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:23] Dr. Stephen Doran: You know, that's what we really are called to do as accompany those who are dying. 

[00:40:26] Jim Jansen: Steve, it seems like there is a phenomenon where. Whether, again, you're a medical professional or you're just a, a loved one, that there's a, a temptation, if you will, to protect your heart to guard it.

And I am, I'm drawn back. Um, big part of my conversion in college came when I had two good friends that were killed in a car accident, and I remember. You know, it was at, it was at Benedictine College, very small school. Um, they were freshmen, so they were very well known to some, and totally unknown to others.

And I remember in my friend group, there were some, like, it was like, oh man, that's, that stinks. I don't even know what was his name again. You know, like, and they didn't know. And, and others of us were very profoundly affected. And I remember noticing the, the, the fact that like, you know, I wouldn't be grieving if I didn't know them.

And this hurts. But what I really trade, knowing them just to avoid this grief, and, and, you know, the, the answer of course was no. Can you speak to that? The desire very human to protect ourselves from, from grief, from the pain, the confusion of accompanying someone through dying. How do we deal with that?

[00:41:43] Dr. Stephen Doran: Scripture passage comes to mind, uh, where in, in, uh, one of John's epistles, he says, see what love the father has bestowed upon us for calling us children of God. 'cause that's what we are. I'm paraphrasing it badly. So that intimate relationship is born out of love. We're children of God. That's because he loves us, but that doesn't free us from suffering.

In fact, it's an invitation to enter into that suffering. Mm-hmm. And there's this. Dynamic that is not uniquely but particularly profound in the Catholic tradition of what suffering really means, right? Mm-hmm. And that. That truly in this mysterious way, how I suffer or the suffering has power for the, for the life of the church.

You know, Colossians talks about that, you know, we, we do what's lacking in the suffering of Christ. Well, of course, nothing's lacking Christ's suffering, but our suffering has meaning. It has meaning now and has meaning in the end, and the same way someone else's suffering has meaning. So we can live a sterile life, put, you know, Saran Wrap and live in a bubble, and that would be just fine.

And we would never. Software. We never Herbie, we'd never love. You cannot love without having, without some degree of suffering. And some of that suffering is minor. Like, I'm, I love this person, so I'm gonna suffer in a way to give myself away. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take out the trash and not complain about, that's a tiny little suffering.

That's a bad example, right? But, but when you love, you are willing to engage with and share within that suffering. It's inevitable. If you love, you're going to suffer. And, and that doesn't mean that suffering is meaningless. It, it, it has meaning now. It has meaning, uh, after we die. 

[00:43:15] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, it seems like, I mean, we're, we're back at the mystery of the cross again.

Right? Right. The, the supreme act of love, both human and divine, involved a fair amount of suffering. 

[00:43:27] Dr. Stephen Doran: Right, right. 

[00:43:28] Jim Jansen: Uh, horrific suffering. But it wasn't just meaningful, it was fruitful, it was effective. I mean, it literally changed, you know, my life. Your life and the, the world. Steve, as we maybe, you know, our, our time is, is really, uh, flying here.

I wanna give you a chance, uh, again, maybe just to, to talk about some of the little deaths, the daily sacrifices, the things that we have to learn to let go of to, to, again, to die. Well, if you will, so that we are prepared for our eventual, you know, uh, death. 

[00:44:06] Dr. Stephen Doran: It's funny you bring this up, because actually when I do baptisms, I often preach about this because, you know, Paul talks about, you know, in Romans how we are baptized into his death.

[00:44:15] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:16] Dr. Stephen Doran: But also then baptized into his resurrection, and so in a very, uh, big sense, yeah. Our, our physical death and resurrection we're baptism into that. But I oftentimes say a baptism's like, okay, when you're. You, you, especially your first kid, wow, this kid is the smartest. They're gonna be the best athlete.

They're gonna be handsome or pretty well, pretty soon you realize, oh, kind of a clutz. And maybe they're not the brightest cran in the pack. But anyway, there's these kind of little series of deaths. When reality kind of you realize that the dreams and hopes and aspirations you have for your child may not necessarily be realized in the way you thought they might, that doesn't mean they're not gonna be realized in a way that's much more powerful or even better.

So we go through life. I mean, it's, it's immediate. You know, as soon as your child is born, you're gonna go through some death. They're gonna get sick or mm-hmm. In school, or they're gonna get bad grades or not get along with their peers or, I mean, the list is endless. And so, right. So I think that's part of the human condition.

Ever since the fall, right before the fall, everything was perfect. There was no death, there was no suffering. But as a condition of the fall, as a condition of the spiritual DNA, we inherited from Adam and Eve, this is our human condition and our life. Our life as individuals and our life and the faith of the church is one of journey back towards union, one of, of getting back to Eden, getting back to, to perfection with God.

But along the way, it's gonna be, there's gonna be stuff that comes up and, and that's part of our human life, you know? Did God intend it that way? No. That wasn't his intent. But yet our freedom is what? Brings a lot of these deaths about, the deaths are oftentimes of our own making. Well, if I hadn't done this and I wouldn't be having this problem, uh, we, we have a lot of self-imposed little deaths.

[00:45:56] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:56] Dr. Stephen Doran: You know, and we suffer the consequences for it. That's, that's what sin is, right? 

[00:45:58] Jim Jansen: Right. Yeah. 

[00:45:59] Dr. Stephen Doran: Sin is death. Sin is separation from God. That's death, you know, and sin is what? Ultimately we seek reconciliation, um, seek forgiveness, and that's a way by which our lives, our spirits, our souls are renewed and refreshed.

[00:46:11] Jim Jansen: Steve, any like, I'm just listening, you know, for, for those who are listening to this and they're like, oh, good, good grief, I need to have some conversations. I need to think about some things. I need to practice detachment. I, you know, the purpose is not to develop a to-do list, but if that. If that's happening for you.

Great. Uh, Steve, where, where, where should someone begin? Who, who's finding themselves convicted by this? 

[00:46:38] Dr. Stephen Doran: Yeah. I think the, the fact that they're convicted is the first step, right? The fact that it's been brought to their heart and to their mind. And so I think the first step is to take time to take a beat, sit back and say, okay, what do I really believe?

[00:46:52] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:52] Dr. Stephen Doran: You know, and this is this conversation I've had with this person. A colleague I'm work around accompanying is like, before we go into the nitty gritty and details of death and dying, it's like, what do I believe? 

[00:47:04] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:04] Dr. Stephen Doran: Do I believe in God? What does that really mean? And if I believe in God, how, who is God?

You know, these very, these very basic questions of evangelization that you've given your, your life to, you know, Jim, this is what you've done for your, for your life. And they're very basic, but very important questions. So the question surrounding death. Are no different than the surround the questions regarding life.

Why am I here? Who is God? And that will lead you into a deeper contemplation when you start thinking about, okay, I think God is Jesus. Okay, what happened with Jesus? He suffered and died. What's that mean for me? And so just the basic message of the, Hmm. The gospel mm-hmm. Is what someone should start with.

[00:47:42] Jim Jansen: Steve, I'm gonna put you on the spot here. 

[00:47:44] Dr. Stephen Doran: Okay. 

[00:47:45] Jim Jansen: Can you preach the gospel? In the context, right? Imagine you're like, okay, you're a friend and or a loved one. You're accompanying someone, uh, who is dying. 

[00:47:54] Dr. Stephen Doran: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:54] Jim Jansen: And you know, they're open to it. Right? So, so maybe they have a, a Christian or a Catholic heritage.

Mm-hmm. But death is real for them right now. It's not a theoretical far off thing. How would you share the good news with, with someone who is, uh, as we said earlier, at death store? 

[00:48:11] Dr. Stephen Doran: I think the, it comes back to the fundamental message of who God is and what we are here for. I would tell the person, you have to, that's the wrong one.

[00:48:20] Jim Jansen: You have to, 

[00:48:21] Dr. Stephen Doran: um, just help them to come to the realization that they are loved. 

[00:48:24] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:25] Dr. Stephen Doran: Uh, that despite. Everything that's happened in their life, either of their own making or what's happened to them, not of their own doing, despite everything that's happened that would make you doubt the fact that God loves you is to say, no, God really, really does love you, and he's willed you into existence for that very purpose.

That's how the catechism begins, right? 

[00:48:44] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:48:44] Dr. Stephen Doran: We were wielded into existence out of love. That's the starting point. Okay. Well, God does exist and God does love you and despite what you're going through, he desires to be one with you. And you're going through this really hard thing right now and there's no simple way, and I'm not gonna try to minimize it and put, you know.

Floss it over and make it seem something other than it is, is really, really hard. But at the end of all, this is the one who's waiting for you, who loves you and is, is cannot wait to be in union with you. And so that's, and, and the way we can get there is because he sent a son. Mm-hmm. The, the, the reason why this is even possible that we can be in union with God because he did it for us.

He sent his only son to do exactly what you're going through now. He sent his only son to die for us to to be a way back to the father. To conquer sin. To conquer death. Conquering sin doesn't mean there's no sin. Conquering death doesn't mean there's no death. But through Christ redemptive death, resurrection, suffering, we now have a way back to Jesus, to God, to the Trinity. And he's done it for you. He's done it for you. 

[00:49:52] Jim Jansen: Amen. Beautiful. Steve, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for the conversation, for really, I mean all of your life dedicated to service. I appreciate your, uh, humility and acknowledging the Lord is continuing to purify you and your service. But it's pretty clear your life has been, uh, well, you've made it a gift in so many different ways, so thank you.

[00:50:14] Dr. Stephen Doran: Well, thank you, Jim. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity. God bless you in your ministry. 

[00:50:17] Jim Jansen: Thank you. Alright, everybody. You know somebody who needs to hear this now. You know, be careful as you send this out. Like, Hey, I thought of you. And it's like, oh no. Do you, if you're a physician, you know, don't, don't use this as a way to break the, break the news to, to somebody.

But maybe you need to have a conversation with a friend, a loved one. Maybe you need to listen to this. We're gonna link to, uh, Steve's book to dive well, A Catholic Neurosurgeon's Guide to the End of Life. We'll link to the U-S-C-C-B ethical directives. Uh, we'll give you some of those resources we mentioned in the conversation today.

I. Let the Lord tap you on the shoulder, show you who, uh, might need to, uh, listen to this and, uh, then send it out as a blessing. Thanks everybody. 

Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.