00:00.00 The ModGolf Podcast Welcome to the ModGolf podcast where we speak with the entrepreneurs, the innovators, the disruptors, and the influencers who are shaping the future of golf. I am your host, Colin Weston. And today i have a special guest off camera already, off microphone was making me laugh. So I have a feeling this going fun one and also an informative one. 00:31.45 The ModGolf Podcast And my guest today is Amaya Athill, who is with Golf Canada. I'm going to let her tell you what her role is there. But what I love about this story is no connection to the golf industry. Her background is in law And many, many other things. So I'm going to let her tell that story. I had the pleasure of meeting Amaya at the Ladies Golf Club of Toronto a few months ago because I am a member. I'm in Canada here, as most of you know. I'm a member of the Golf Journalists Association of Canada, and we had our year-end golf round and banquet, and i had the pleasure of listening to Amaya and some other amazing women in a fireside chat. I went up to Amaya afterwards and asked, "can you please come on the ModGolf podcast? Your story is so good. Your energy is so awesome that please come on!" And she said, yes. So with that, here she is. Amaya, welcome to the ModGolf podcast. 01:29.91 Amaya Athill What an intro. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. 01:33.40 The ModGolf Podcast It is my pleasure. Okay, we're going to get right into this. I'd love to ask this ice maker question. And I heard at least part of, or at least what I remember here, because this was a couple of months ago, and I can barely remember what I had for lunch yesterday. So I believe I know what the answer this is or part of it. 01:50.04 The ModGolf Podcast So the icebreaker question I love to ask people, whether they're a PGA or LPGA professional or in the industry or not in the industry is your connection to golf. The first time you ever picked up a golf club and that power of invitation, who was that person that invited you to have that experience? So tell us about that. 02:12.82 Amaya Athill I actually did grow up in golf. My dad introduced me to golf. and the story was, we were living in Antigua where I'm originally from, and he was an entrepreneur. And he was in he had a few businesses over the course of his life. And at that point in time, He had a mentor who played golf. It was his uncle, Norman Athill, who was the ambassador to Antigua in the US at the time. 02:36.38 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. 02:36.50 Amaya Athill And he started playing golf, learned how to play, realized how good it was for not only his network, but for business opportunities. So he introduced my dad to the game. And my dad was like, oh, i have one child and I see how great this game is for me. i can't imagine how good it's going to be for her. So he brought me to the golf course on a Saturday morning when I was five years old, when they had a normal junior golf academy running. 03:01.11 Amaya Athill And he plopped me in there. And he also found out the hidden benefit of getting your child into golf is that during her lesson time, you get to play completely free for yourself. So he was able to play golf on Saturday when I was also learning at five years old. 03:10.87 The ModGolf Podcast Nice. 03:14.54 Amaya Athill That was my invitation. 03:16.28 The ModGolf Podcast Golf hack. So he tried to make it all about you, but it was it was a bit a bit of self-indulgence there also. 03:22.94 Amaya Athill It definitely turned into a bit of selfishness. Yes. He quite enjoyed that selfish aspect of putting me into golf as well. 03:28.76 The ModGolf Podcast Well, let me follow up with with this part because one of the... Key pillars are things that you're passionate about is getting more women involved in golf. So did your mom play at all? 03:39.42 The ModGolf Podcast Was she attracted to the game? Did she ever swing a club? And if no why do you think not, if that was the case? 03:42.04 Amaya Athill Not at all. Not at all. i think at the time when I look back, ah the women who were playing golf in Antigua were predominantly women who were not from Antigua. They were immigrants to Antigua. And I think that community of women were called expats. Those were mainly the women that were playing at the time. But What we had in our ecosystem in Antigua at that golf course, Cedar Valley, were leaders who wanted and used the power of invitation to bring local communities of children in. So I grew up with a very robust junior golf program of local children from private schools, public schools, the local communities surrounding the golf course every Saturday and when every Wednesday afternoon. 04:26.87 Amaya Athill So they knew how powerful the sport could be, and they made a concerted effort concerted effort to invite those from outside the sport into the sport. And that's the type of ecosystem I grew up in. So when I say that I was surrounded by other girls like me, I truly mean it. Not only was I exposed to other girls like me in the sport, but girls that weren't like me in the sport. So it was ah definitely a background that exposed me to a wide range of people ah through golf. 04:57.88 The ModGolf Podcast Understood. Understood. So, so I got that slightly wrong. you did grow up around golf, but you were not in the golf industry. 05:02.71 Amaya Athill I did. 05:04.28 The ModGolf Podcast You were, well, you're a lawyer. 05:06.42 Amaya Athill Yeah. 05:06.65 The ModGolf Podcast You, that's what you did as far as going to Georgetown and then with McGill and being in in Montreal and then Toronto. 05:08.86 Amaya Athill Yeah. Yeah. 05:14.30 The ModGolf Podcast So I'd love to hear this part of the story. 05:16.25 Amaya Athill Sure. 05:16.92 The ModGolf Podcast So very quickly, bring us up to speed of what you did in the first part of your professional career and this inflection point that you decided to do a full 180º here and get involved and reached out and you applied for a job at Golf Canada. 05:19.36 Amaya Athill Sure. 05:31.26 The ModGolf Podcast I believe your first position was with the First Tee Ontario and you're doing other things there now. so explain this to us. what where did you go where you're on this fast track of a lot career and then you decide to do a complete change and jump lanes into golf traffic? So tell us about what why and how. 05:53.01 Amaya Athill Great question. And this is a long story. So stop me if there's any point that you feel like, hey, let's dig deeper. So after being introduced to the game at five years old, I grew up playing in Antigua and throughout the Caribbean competitively in my teens. The dream was to get a golf scholarship. And a lot of my coaches really tried. But unfortunately, my parents had never gone to university and we didn't have the resources and tools to know how best to position myself to get that opportunity. However, I did have a British passport because my dad was born in England. 06:17.37 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. 06:21.32 Amaya Athill His father was part of the Windrush generation. So he actually grew up until the age of 10 in the UK. So I decided to use that opportunity and go to the UK for university. 06:31.74 Amaya Athill So I did my undergrad in the yeah UK and I studied law, decided to study law. It was not something that I think I planned. It was something that I figured all of my skills, I was really good at arguing. 06:43.26 Amaya Athill I was, which is like number one. I loved reading. I loved history. I loved economics. and I figured it would kind of be a good combination of all of the subjects that I really enjoyed. So started studying law, got called to the bar in the yeah UK, did my master's at Georgetown, got called to the bar in the Caribbean after doing my conversion course. And then I practiced law for some period of time. I think it was five years that I practiced law before I did a fellowship at McGill. 07:09.27 Amaya Athill It was called the Jean Sauvé Leadership Program, where they brought 12 leaders from around the world 07:09.28 The ModGolf Podcast Right. Right. 07:15.83 Amaya Athill put them all in this mansion on ah Dr. Penfield Street next to McGill. And we were essentially there for a year, creating projects, thinking about and working with some of the faculty at McGill around topics that interested us. So it was a really interesting, fun program. That was my real introduction to Canada as a space and a country to live. 07:36.70 Amaya Athill And I loved that. I loved ah Montreal as a city. And I kind of fell in love with it there. That being one year, i moved back to Antigua, practice continued practicing law. At that time, I was a civil litigator, which meant I was in court every single day for a wide variety of matters. And I think it's the best way to get into the legal profession, cutting your teeth in court. So I loved that experience. However, I transitioned back to the UK and I was working as an in-house counsel for an organization called the Commonwealth Secretariat. 08:07.00 Amaya Athill So from there, I was working there during the pandemic. Pandemic hit and I was stuck in my one bedroom apartment 24 seven. And I decided going to go crazy if I don't get outside. 08:19.67 Amaya Athill So I'm essentially a pandemic golfer. I'm like, I gave up golf during the time that I was practicing law. I dabbled here and there as I would go and play one round or two for fun, but I wasn't into the sport. So when I started again in the UK during the pandemic, 08:34.65 Amaya Athill It was a totally different experience than when I was playing golf in Antigua. Like I told you, I grew up with communities of golfers, both locally and competing regionally that reflected the diverse communities that Antigua had, that the Caribbean had. 08:48.28 Amaya Athill And then when I was in the UK, suddenly i was the only woman of colour that I would find on any golf course at any one period of time. So it became a moment of fear of isolation, of no longer feeling like this sport is mine or belongs to me because I don't feel that same sense of community. 09:05.31 The ModGolf Podcast Hmm. Yeah. 09:09.02 Amaya Athill So starting playing golf with that realization in the UK, this is in 2021 or two, I decided to find community. So I Googled and tried to find anybody that I could, and I did. 09:22.30 Amaya Athill What's interesting about the history of golf and racialized communities in both Canada and the UK, there's an inflection point in the eighty s when a lot of Caribbean cricketers, mainly from Barbados, immigrated to Canada, to the UK, and started playing golf because cricket ravages your body. 09:33.75 The ModGolf Podcast Hmm. 09:40.95 Amaya Athill And they were no longer playing as much as they wanted to, and they took up golf. So in the 80s, there was a group called the African Caribbean Golf Association that was established in the UK. They play golf once a month together and I found them. 09:53.91 Amaya Athill They became my family in golf in the UK. And I loved that. Then I met so many of my friends who are some are now mentors and family to me. in that journey. 10:05.37 Amaya Athill When I moved to Canada in 2022, it was almost like I was restarting. I went to a golf course, I would be the only woman of colour in this space. And I was like, here we go again, we got to find this family again. So I did my research. 10:18.39 Amaya Athill And in the 80s, there was a group called the Canadian Caribbean Amateur Golfers Association established in the 80s, same similar background, Bayesian cricketers moved to Canada, cricket had ravaged their bodies, and they took up golf and golf was now their way to connect. 10:33.02 Amaya Athill And those became my starting points for finding my people, my identity and my belonging in sport in both countries. 10:42.01 The ModGolf Podcast Wow. Love this story. Okay. 10:44.47 Amaya Athill I didn't tie i didn't tie it back into work, but I can tie it back into work. 10:44.70 The ModGolf Podcast So, well, you took a nice pause there. Thank you. 10:49.08 Amaya Athill I did. 10:50.33 The ModGolf Podcast You did. Now you can catch your breath there. Have a sip of water. 10:52.22 Amaya Athill Yes. 10:52.73 The ModGolf Podcast Because that but you nailed that though. 10:54.07 Amaya Athill That went into it. 10:55.61 The ModGolf Podcast That was amazing. So now the next chapter, on the professional side. 10:59.74 Amaya Athill Yes. Mm-hmm. 11:01.85 The ModGolf Podcast So tell us how that unfolded, how you went from then finding your recreational golf community to then taking that next step to say, you know what? 11:12.57 The ModGolf Podcast I have, let me do that again. You said, you know what? I have a prosperous community. and fulfilling law career. 11:23.06 The ModGolf Podcast But this golf thing, I've got this, this itch. I've got to explore this more. So tell us how that unfolded, that how you ended up where you are now, this journey over the last looks like really three plus years of how you've ended up with golf Canada. So yeah, tell us that. 11:39.22 Amaya Athill When I re-entered golf in the UK and I acknowledged this problem of representation, ah one day i started taking an interest in getting more women into the sport. 11:50.94 Amaya Athill I had a mentor at the time that I'd met, friend and mentor, her name is Julia Regis. She was putting on events for Black women in um o the Midlands, so Birmingham, Manchester. 12:04.02 Amaya Athill She called me one day and said, I've got a lot of women here who are interested in event in London, which is where I was based. Would you be interested in hosting? And I said, absolutely. This is exactly what I'm here to do. 12:15.51 Amaya Athill So I hosted my first ever event, Getting Women Into Golf in East London. I'm forgetting the name of the course now. 20 women from my network, from Julia's network, from an open call on social media showed up. 12:30.33 Amaya Athill And I didn't realize how much that moment would impact me. Seeing women that i were that I wasn't seeing on the course, the but that I needed to see on the course, holding a club for the first time, hitting a ball for the first time, seeing their expressions and how new, foreign, strange, but exciting and how hungry they were to know more, but had never had that invitation. 12:56.83 Amaya Athill it's that one event, I think, changed the course of my life. So I knew at the time i was going to be moving to Canada. I had already been approved for a permanent residency in Canada. 13:08.98 Amaya Athill So my time in the UK was coming to an end at that point. And I was already doing my studies to qualify for the Ontario Bar. But I hadn't quite finished my studies before we moved to Canada in 2022. So in the lead up to leaving, I thought, hmm, I can't work as a lawyer yet. 13:27.45 Amaya Athill So I can't apply for jobs in law. But I love this thing in golf. I love what I was just able to do. And I want to do more of it. How do I do that? So I started Googling jobs and I found Gulf Canada posted the posting for the first tee Ontario role. 13:43.29 Amaya Athill I reached out to the hiring manager. His name is Adam Hunter. And he did not know me from Adam. What literally no pun, and all puns intended. He didn't know me from Adam. And he responded to my LinkedIn message. 13:57.88 Amaya Athill He agreed to meet. We had a half an hour call. I explained my background, my passion for golf, what I want to do. And he said, apply. we would love to have your application in to be considered. 14:10.39 Amaya Athill And the next thing I knew, we went through the application process and I got the job. And I moved to Canada with the understanding that I was coming to be the manager of the First Tea Ontario program. 14:22.17 Amaya Athill And that's how that change happened. 14:23.93 The ModGolf Podcast Wow. Wow. So we have had the First Tee, people from the First Tee on ModGolf previously, but why don't you provide some context? There's listeners that don't know about the First Tee program. 14:35.66 The ModGolf Podcast why it Well, why don't you tell us about your role there as the manager in Ontario, so the province of Ontario here in Canada, and a little bit of background, just an overview of what the First Tee is and why they do what they do. 14:41.31 Amaya Athill Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 14:48.12 Amaya Athill Absolutely. So the first tee program started in around 1997. 1997 was a pivotal year for golf. Tiger Woods won the Masters. 14:55.58 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 14:55.80 Amaya Athill So it was a huge explosion of ah wanting to field more folks and inspire more children that come from diverse and underrepresented backgrounds in golf. So an amalgamation of the PGA Tour, the USGA came together and decided to create the first tee program to do just that. 15:15.96 Amaya Athill Since then, the First Tea program has exploded into this behemoth program throughout the entire United States and in a lot of different countries internationally, including Canada. 15:26.90 Amaya Athill And when I was planning to move to Canada, the First Tea program had just been adopted the year before. So 2021. 15:37.10 Amaya Athill So Golf Canada brought First Tea to Canada under its umbrella. 15:37.53 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 15:42.14 Amaya Athill So the First Tea program is run by Golf Canada. And at the time they had opened it in BC, Ontario, ah Quebec and the Atlantic. So I was coming in at the very start of what this program could look like in Canada. 15:57.21 Amaya Athill But having known of the program and all of us who've been in golf know of the First T program and the impact it could have It was such an exciting inflection point to be able to be part of that Genesis story. So yeah, that's a little bit of background there. But essentially in Canada specifically, what we do with the First Tee Program is we focus on underserved communities. So we're talking about newcomer communities. We're talking about differently abled children. We're talking about racialized communities. We're talking about specifically targeting girls-only programming. 16:26.26 Amaya Athill So we're trying to intentionally target children who otherwise would not have the opportunity or even interest or even trust to be able to access golf as a sport. 16:40.22 The ModGolf Podcast Now, what have you learned in that role? You mentioned what an impact in a formative moment it was in East London with those 20 women. What on that day have you now infused into your approach to making golf welcoming and comfortable and less intimidating for women and girls for their first experience? 17:05.60 Amaya Athill I want to start with, so i i started my role with First Tee in 2022, and I transitioned into a new role at Golf Canada six months ago. 17:16.53 Amaya Athill So three years of working with the program. 17:16.96 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 17:19.67 Amaya Athill And I think one of the things that was most important to me was building trust. Trust with groups that already had community engagement and buy-in. You can't build a program, even if it's free, in a sport that you don't trust and expect people to show up. 17:36.56 Amaya Athill It's just not going to happen. So what we ended up doing was partnering with community centers and schools that were in either low income or um high or communities with high racialized ah communities or populations. 17:51.70 Amaya Athill And I would go to the schools and community centers in those areas and say, hey, this is who we are. this is who I am, golf kind of rocks and we'd love to introduce you to it. So what we would do is give for free, partner with community centers and schools in these neighbourhoods, give them for free a equipment kit, training so that they can run the program in-house. 18:14.14 Amaya Athill And then in the spring, summer, fall, very short golf season over here, folks, we would transition those kids over to the nearest partner Green-grass facility. So the trust was the starting point. We can't get those kids and those teachers and those community leaders to want to bring groups of kids over to a golf course if they don't feel like they have some idea of what the program is or they know the people trying to help them get to the course. 18:39.77 Amaya Athill So that first year, especially, was the most important in building those relationships with those community center schools, teachers, volunteers, community leaders, to ensure that they knew what the program was and knew that we could help them access SCOLF in a safe and supportive way. 18:55.45 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah. Sounds like you were very intentional with your strategy to meet those people where they are at rather than that old school mentality of, well, let's invite them out to the golf course and spend a day. 19:04.28 Amaya Athill Absolutely. 19:09.22 The ModGolf Podcast It's like in most cases, they don't even have the ability Yeah. 19:14.02 Amaya Athill Yeah. 19:15.80 The ModGolf Podcast it's like another planet they're so intimidated by that there's so many barriers so you've 19:15.93 Amaya Athill Yeah, exactly. 19:21.02 The ModGolf Podcast help reduce those barriers by bringing all the equipment i've seen a lot of what you do and sometimes they're not even full if it's indoors like full traditional golf clubs, the ones, plastic ones with big heads and bigger balls to make it easier just to hit a ball, get that, what we call that golf euphoria of hitting a good shot. 19:36.34 Amaya Athill Oh, yeah. 19:36.58 The ModGolf Podcast And I'm sure you've seen dozens, if not hundreds of young faces or for the first time, just light up and that look, we all know that look when you hit it pure it like butter, even if it's with a bigger ball indoors with a bigger club head or plastic, it's like it, nothing beats that, right? 19:43.29 Amaya Athill Absolutely. at Look. 19:51.83 The ModGolf Podcast It is so amazing. 19:52.15 Amaya Athill Nothing. Nothing. And you're right. I think a lot of the barriers that we faced were ah not having the transport, you know, kids making making sure that parents and kids knew like, hey, this golf course is actually really close to your community center, which is why we intentionally and specifically want to work with you. Or we can provide some budget to get busing from where you are to the golf course if need be, if we want to bring larger groups that might not have the access. So it is definitely meeting kids where they are. And it's also finding and being intentional about exploring what those barriers are and finding the resources to be able to overcome those. And yes, those moments where those kids would hit the ball 20:28.63 Amaya Athill like Tiger Woods for the first time. It was like, oh, wait, hold hold on. Did you just do that? And they would light up. And this is what we want. That golf bug hits and bites so bad, as we know. 20:41.08 The ModGolf Podcast I had the pleasure and good fortune of participating in a First Tee event in Vancouver. it was indoors at a high school for underrepresented communities and in kids ah that had never picked up a golf club before. 20:57.75 The ModGolf Podcast And I found that not only were the kids into it, but then there was this trickle-down effect that a lot of the parents then wanted to learn more. So then they're at a golf – picking up a golf club. I have this one great story. This young black girl, never played to golf in golf before. She's teaching her brother. And I just showed her – and I'm no – like I'm a 16 handicap. 21:18.82 The ModGolf Podcast I don't pretend to be a golf professional at all, but I know enough of the basics and the foundations. I'm showing the proper grip and not to overwhelm them with too much information. And we were playing bucket golf. if You know what that is? 21:28.75 Amaya Athill Mm-hmm. 21:28.74 The ModGolf Podcast So the buckets and just got to hit it in the bucket with the bigger ball, balls and the clubs. 21:29.35 Amaya Athill Yeah. The red buckets. Yep. 21:33.69 The ModGolf Podcast And, This young woman, she was there the whole time, even though there was basketball and soccer and other activations throughout the the three gymnasiums they had at this high school. But she was there the whole time. And then I see an hour into it. 21:46.71 The ModGolf Podcast Her mother is asking me questions, but I look over and she's there teaching her mother the golf grip that I taught her. She's basically giving her mom a lesson, which I love. Then the mom was coming over afterwards is like, How do I find out? The first T, it sounds like it's for kids. how How can I find out more? So I made some introductions, but I love that. So I guess that story is my segue into the question. Are you finding that even though you're appealing to younger people, kids and teenagers with these programs with the first T, that it has this positive spill out effect that then some of the parents are thinking, hey, I want to try this too. 22:21.67 Amaya Athill I think yes, and I think potentially even more. And here's why I say that. 22:25.79 The ModGolf Podcast Hmm. 22:26.03 Amaya Athill I think this is a pathway. i think getting kids into golf is step one. We also have to think about pathways to keep kids in sport. So when we think about that, we think about families being more involved. If ah if a parent is interested, the kid will stay interested. 22:39.58 Amaya Athill If a parent is bought in, they will find a way to keep the child participating along this pathway. And what better way than to involve the parent? There's a beautiful example in Ontario where there's a program location called Centennial Park Golf Course. The ah the coach there is a coach called Coach Graham. 22:58.10 Amaya Athill He's amazing. And what he does, and he just does it without thinking, but he doesn't know the impact he's making. When he's leading a lesson, if the parents are waiting, he'll just give them a chip. He'll be like, go ahead, go go get a bucket of balls and try. 23:10.68 Amaya Athill And like the parent would be like, oh, OK. So the parent goes and is trying. And then after the lesson, the child might go and stand with the parent or show the parent what they've learned. Or the parent might like watch the child and they're doing it together. 23:23.25 Amaya Athill It's that beautiful. So yes, I think it is spurring more curiosity. And the reason I say there's potential is because if this could happen more, i think parents would buy in more and the child and the parent would be able to walk that path together because that is the next step to walking down the pathway. 23:43.26 The ModGolf Podcast Love this. Love this. So I'd love to hear with your new role now as the regional director in Ontario that you're still involved. so there's a component with the first tee. It brings me to my question. 23:55.63 The ModGolf Podcast When you talked about at Centennial, there is that connection of that next step on the path of then getting young people that have never played the game before onto the golf course. After they have the confidence, they've built the trust, that T word that you mentioned, that then they want. 24:11.03 The ModGolf Podcast to go out for that experience. But the golf courses have to buy in with their programs. They have to have that first experience, like going to a restaurant, right? All of a sudden, if the hostess ignores you or treats you poorly, it's like then all of a sudden the experience for the whole night is almost ruined. Like between the food and everything else, hours may not be what you want it to be. 24:32.19 Amaya Athill Mm-hmm. 24:33.69 The ModGolf Podcast Talk about that as far as your current role now and that connection and how you work with golf club courses and golf clubs all across the province so that they are welcoming to the programs too. So they can continue on for have a positive experience on the next touch point of their journey in golf. 24:50.23 Amaya Athill Great question. I think there's something that I think we hear floating around all the time. It's people might not remember what you say, but they'll remember how you made them feel. And I think that's the most important part of running programs. 24:58.46 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 25:01.87 Amaya Athill And in the same way, it is important with how we build relationships with our facility partners. So my new role that I started six months ago, Regional Director of Ontario, I'm essentially the touch point between Gulf Canada golf facilities and clubs and now indoor facilities as we build out this indoor facility program and the provincial association. So I'm the relationship builder between this network of folks working in golf in Ontario. 25:31.38 Amaya Athill And my role is essentially to not just build the relationships and make sure that folks are aware of, you know, if you have a question about membership, about programs, who you can go to, but it's also to understand the workings, the the ah ambitions, the where clubs in Ontario buy in and where their interests are. So when I think about some of the clubs that I've met in my journey so far, a lot of what I hear, people are so passionate about getting kids and people into golf. 26:03.66 Amaya Athill It's hard when you're coaching 24-7 sometimes as PGA professionals to feel like you have energy to give more, but people care. So I think what my role has taught me is that there's so much space ah for growth in Ontario in junior programs, in women's programs. There's so much interest. There's so much care. It's just a really busy time with golf being booming, with golf booming at the moment. So some of the things I've learned are kind of boiled down to that. I think in Ontario, people care and people want to get juniors and kids and women into golf. And two, I think Golf Canada has done a good job at kind of bridging the gap between 26:46.68 Amaya Athill you know, we are a national sport organization, but we're also at the grassroots level. And we want to work with you to be able to shape and help you bring a program to your golf course. So it's kind of the balance between the club level and the NSO and how we're trying to create programs and how clubs want to run programs and are doing a great job, but might want to buy into another program. it's It's just a wonderful and delicate balance of that relationship building, is which is what I do now. 27:15.48 The ModGolf Podcast Do you find that with golf courses and golf being more popular than ever, a supply and demand issue post COVID, and I've heard this story anecdotally many, many times that golf clubs want to open up and give free tee times or reduce tee times or the lesson tee. And they're just saying, you know what, we just don't have the capacity. And also financially, know, 27:38.87 The ModGolf Podcast you know, it's challenging for us. So how do you knock down those barriers or those arguments or perhaps help facilitate that in a way that they win also rather than just doing it because it's the right thing to do for the next generation of golfers, which ultimately if you're a struggling golf course or one that's trying to maximize your revenue, that you help to reframe the lens of which they see things. 28:07.05 Amaya Athill I think you know which golf courses might not be the ones that you can progress running for example, a First Tee program with, right? 28:15.06 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 28:15.40 Amaya Athill some folks are, in some ways, rightfully so, revenue motivated, and they have to be. They have boards to report to. They have people who, at the end of the day, they're accountable to. 28:27.75 Amaya Athill it doesn't mean they don't care. their Their priorities just have to be the way they are for whatever reason. So I think we know what tree to bark up. I think the second side to that is that we also know everybody, most folks really do want to participate and want to be part of growing the game. So you'll find that even if tee sheets are full, you'll find those clubs who are interested and will make the time. 28:52.25 Amaya Athill They will do it. I think about, i have to go back to that that example about Centennial. Centennial is T-sheet. filled their range facility full every afternoon there are lines to get to the range it's a smaller range space and people will be lining up but they will still make time for the first t program so you kind of find those stakeholders who are the ones that want to work with you they're easy to to find they're the ones that will put their hand up even without having the resources and want to do it you'll also find maybe there are other ways that people can support Some clubs are like, listen, we don't really have the time and space, but we we might want to run run a fundraiser for you. Or we might want to do something that helps the program grow in another way besides using our facilities. So there are different levels of buy-in depending on ability, resources, and positioning of a club. 29:42.42 Amaya Athill I think the best result is always when you're not forcing ah forcing a circle into a square, although that kind of kind of works depending on the size of the circle and the size of the square. 29:48.92 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 29:52.12 Amaya Athill When you're not forcing something to happen when it really isn't going to or the desire isn't there, I think the best relationships are built on the understanding of what people's capacities are, what their resources are, and how where their interests lie. 30:03.13 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 30:07.24 The ModGolf Podcast Now, speaking of resources, I know this isn't necessarily your role to provide, how can I say this? 30:20.28 The ModGolf Podcast Perhaps this question isn't ah in your job description here, and you can comment as much or as little as you like on this one. I'm sure you have some insights and probably you love to argue. You said you were good at arguing very young there, so you may have an argument for or against this. 30:34.85 Amaya Athill That was in my 20s, Colin. I'm too old to argue now! 30:37.72 The ModGolf Podcast I don't believe, I got to ask your husband if that's the case. I have a feeling he's going to disagree with that. But that that's for another time, for another time. 30:46.90 Amaya Athill yeah Another time. 30:48.18 The ModGolf Podcast So with city run courses, municipal courses across North America and Vancouver here, I've heard stories in Toronto also, in Los Angeles, that the pressure and the value of land in the cities to then... 31:03.48 The ModGolf Podcast lose and take over those golf courses for other uses, usually for housing. And now I'm hearing a lot of family run kind of mom and pop golf courses. So still the municipal, the Muni golf courses shrinking and disappearing. And now across North America with, know, 31:22.33 The ModGolf Podcast data centers that are needed for all the resources and power and energy for AI that we need, that golf courses are being earmarked and bought up and offered for like 10 times the value of the golf course. So for the owners is like, yes, we're going to do that. So I guess my question here Is are you seeing, let's say even in Toronto, what type of relationship do you have with the city of Toronto with the with the public municipal golf courses? Are they on board to eliminate, because here in Vancouver, we've had this for years, people still look at it, if they're non-golfers, as this elitist game, and it's a public use of resources that's only for the very few and not for the many, rather than seeing the benefits that it that it has environmentally and socially and all those other good things that we know. So I know it's a very long-winded way of asking this question, but ultimately, how do you reconcile your needs with Golf Canada to grow the game with the with the city and the golf facilities they have that hopefully you positively come together and are they supporting you? 32:27.10 Amaya Athill Great question. And I'll start by saying in my three years at First Tee, one of our major focuses was to work with municipal golf and municipal golf courses, because the easiest access point for children who are underrepresented in the game are those municipal golf courses. 32:35.90 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 32:43.16 Amaya Athill And we had such great relationships with the communities that we worked with. And I say this, and each relationship is different, but either a municipal course might not have had a junior golf program and we're like, oh, first T is actually a really good fit for what we're looking for. Or a municipal course might have a junior golf program and we might be able to add value by this is a theater to your long term academy, because we're doing what we've started doing, especially because First D is so new. It's a very introductory program for kids who've never held a club before. A lot of the kids that are already accessing junior golf programs at municipals might have families who play golf and some history in the game. 33:19.83 Amaya Athill So we're actually providing kind of a foundational level learning access point that then can trickle up into their other academies and junior golf programs. So it's a complimentary offering and or an offering that is easy to buy into if you don't already have an offering. So I will say our relationships have been wonderful. I understand the pressure for um revenue generation or selling land because you want to be able to make money. But there's also a focus with municipalities that to provide public access and golf does not, I don't think impedes necessarily on that. I think it's an opportunity. And I say it's an opportunity in that if you can establish and build, I think of the Vancouver example, I'm forgetting the community putting green that was built in Vancouver. 34:07.86 Amaya Athill Can you remind me of the location? It was at Stanley park. 34:09.74 The ModGolf Podcast It was Stanley Park, yes. 34:10.92 Amaya Athill Stanley Park's Putting Green, where you get people, you you create a space that people have open access, that people from the community who might not play 18 holes are able to come and have fun and play and use a putter that they might not have at home. It's such an opportunity we see to be able to build on a framework in a space that exists in a really accessible area to then add more public access. And I think that's the piece that when you're thinking, when I think about maybe tennis or I'm trying not to think about pickleball because it's exploding right now, any other sport that uses public land. I don't know if there's that much pressure for revenue, rent revenue generation, or what profit are we making from this sport, but in golf, because we're using so much space, it's that question. Right. 35:01.37 Amaya Athill But I honestly see this as an opportunity. So understanding the pressure, that is coming from municipalities and governments, but also understanding we've had some great relationships with cities and municipalities and municipal golf courses that have been so on board with running these programs, including the city of Toronto. And there's such a huge opportunity here to build more access in the spaces that already exist. 35:24.12 The ModGolf Podcast It's interesting you touch on that point with golf, that it takes up a lot of space. An 18-hole golf course, par 72, is anywhere between 150 and 180 acres on average. 35:36.95 The ModGolf Podcast par three courses or about usually fifty sixty seventy acres But there's this very interesting trend that I know that Golf Canada is part of, and I've had them on the podcast and and doing a little bit of work with them too. 35:46.23 Amaya Athill Yes. 35:49.84 The ModGolf Podcast And that's Himalayas Golf and Golf in Small Spaces. 35:51.48 Amaya Athill Yes, exactly. 35:52.68 The ModGolf Podcast And I was up at your new headquarters that is almost finished north of Toronto at Osprey Valley, where the RBC Canadian Open is now going to be held, I think, every single year. 35:55.93 Amaya Athill Exactly. 35:59.03 Amaya Athill Yes. 36:03.91 The ModGolf Podcast And I walked the putting course that you have that's going to be open to the public. 36:08.40 The ModGolf Podcast So even those type of activations, which I believe, tell me if I'm wrong here, Amaya, but I believe that's going to be free, no charge to the public to play this awesome undulating great course with the eighteenth hole being replicating the putt that Nick Taylor made a couple years ago to win the the RBC Canadian Open which is so awesome so tell me 36:24.87 Amaya Athill Absolutely. 36:31.10 The ModGolf Podcast that what's being built there and how you see that can really help and a turbocharger, at least in other another piece to the puzzle that helps to grow the game and make it more welcoming inviting. And perhaps that can scale across Ontario and drop those type of small activations that are permanently then accessible to people that are in more urban areas. So yeah, tell tell me what you think about kind of this shrinking of the the field of play, if you will, like you have up there with this awesome putting course up at the new Golf Canada headquarters. 37:03.28 Amaya Athill Hitting the nail on the head here, Colin, that's exactly where I was going by saying we need more. There's an opportunity here for more public access, because when we talk about access to golf, ah look it's looking different. 37:09.82 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. Yes. 37:13.84 Amaya Athill And I'm not saying we get rid of the 18-hole municipals or the nine-hole municipals. I'm talking about adding more space or not adding more space, adding more pieces or places within the space you have to create access. 37:22.52 The ModGolf Podcast yes 37:25.12 Amaya Athill And that looks like community putting greens. That looks like having these short little chipping length holes that create like a nine hole course in maybe a corner of the property that you already have. 37:37.19 Amaya Athill And yes, it will be completely free at the golf Canada headquarters, home of golf. And yes, one of the putts will be a recreation of Nick Taylor's famous 72 foot putt. I actually have a video on my phone that day. 37:47.95 Amaya Athill i was taking it while he was making that playoff putt. My hand was shaking. And he when he made the putt, you're just hearing, I lost my voice. You could hear it. You could literally hear it in the screen. I love that putt. 37:58.02 Amaya Athill So where I think Golf Canada has done a really good job honoring that win. it was the first win of a Canadian in 69 years. 38:05.17 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 38:05.34 Amaya Athill It's incredible. So to be able to bring something like the Himalayas modeled off of, you know, St. Andrews and the old course and then bring it here, I think is such a beautiful legacy to to create. 38:16.34 Amaya Athill But yes, putting greens, community putting greens, there is a beautiful property at Fanshawe Golf Course. it's It's like a nine hole short court, very short course, not even par threes, even smaller that has open access. 38:30.87 Amaya Athill Courses like those, putting greens like those are the ones that are going to drive access. So which is why I think it's really important to invest in the golf spaces that we have to create those fun opportunities for families, for children, for communities to actually enter versus having to just pay for a traditional tea time or use a traditional driving range. 38:43.51 The ModGolf Podcast you 38:50.71 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. And what Himalaya's golf is doing in golf in small spaces, it could be like the dial you could have on these facilities, or you can even change it for what you want it to be. It can be like pure entertainment and fun with your friends. 39:02.74 The ModGolf Podcast You can gamify it, have that element also. 39:04.95 Amaya Athill Yes, absolutely. 39:05.66 The ModGolf Podcast Or if you're a more elite, serious player, you can have it that it is full on practice session that you can have or something in between. 39:12.98 Amaya Athill Yes. 39:14.28 The ModGolf Podcast So it provides something for everybody. 39:14.88 Amaya Athill Totally. 39:17.27 The ModGolf Podcast It really does. 39:17.30 Amaya Athill I agree. I agree. 39:18.49 The ModGolf Podcast So you talked and you touched on something earlier when we were talking about municipal courses in Toronto and elsewhere of where to have access. And you did mention indoor facilities also. So that we talked about how not just having access to the traditional golf courses with the first tee and welcoming first timers and younger people to play. But then now these shorter courses we talked about that will be closer to where you live. But now this explosion of simulator golf, indoor golf. So where are you seeing that? Are there already events that you know that Golf Canada is participating in when it's a dark, cold, wintry, snowy night in Toronto or rainy in Vancouver here that we can go indoors? So are there any groups or programs in place that now you can have their first experience indoors at a facility like that that you're partnering with? 40:11.32 Amaya Athill Absolutely. So through the first two program, the first three years I was there, we did partner with a few indoor facilities that would try and run, but sorry, that would run off season programming. So when the fall is over and winter has begun, we're transitioning some of those kids to indoor facilities. So there were a few really good partners that came on board with that to create these community hubs where community centers are running programs, schools are running programs. We transition those kids to the course in the summer and in the winter, we could also transition those kids in indoors too. 40:39.45 Amaya Athill So those have been some great partners. Gulf Canada just recently launched our Just Swing program, which is essentially a program that engages indoor facilities across the country. So we're asking that they provide their information. We have now a database of where these sims are located and what amenities they have. So using the Gulf Canada app, you can log in and you can see where your nearest golf simulator is located, but you can also post your score, not that it counts towards your handicap, but you can also post your score that you' ah you're posting at an indoor facility using the app. So we're trying to see and engage and learn how Canadians are playing golf and where they're playing golf. And if you actually look at the data, and I'm trying to pull it up now, a lot of first time golfers actually started golfing indoors. 41:27.87 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 41:28.28 Amaya Athill It is such a fun experience and less intimidating than going to a traditional green grass facility that a lot of people are using indoor sims as their first access point. So that is an important piece for us to know, to know, okay, if this is a first start for so many folks, how do we then create that community around indoor golf as well. So really exciting partnerships happening, conversations happening, especially because, you know, indoor sim operators are shrewd business people. They are in this industry and they are they know what they're doing. They're very active. And I think it's a really an interesting and fun community to engage with. 42:10.18 The ModGolf Podcast Love this. So I can keep going here. I did want to talk to you about women's golf and the growth in that sector, but I'm going to hold off on that because you and I are going to jump over to a video conversation for the ModGolf YouTube channel. 42:18.81 Amaya Athill Yes. 42:26.38 The ModGolf Podcast So I'm going to encourage our listeners here to also become viewers because we're going to have a great conversation there. We're going to talk about the Ladies Golf Club of Toronto, the history there. 42:37.42 The ModGolf Podcast No spoilers on the backstory there, but it's a good one. And you're going to give us some insights there. And I also want to going to put you on the spot here. I'm going to ask you, you'll have five minutes between ah jumping onto that other call of five top, let me do that one more time. 43:00.51 The ModGolf Podcast I'm going to call it, let me do that one more time. 43:03.62 Amaya Athill That's okay. 43:06.90 The ModGolf Podcast So am i I'm going to put you on the spot here when we jump over to the ModGolf YouTube channel that I'm going to have you give a list what your top five kind of keys are for women and children to get into the game. 43:20.54 The ModGolf Podcast though That low-hanging fruit, the easiest way to do that. So we're going to hold off on that. So we're going to do a top five list of your experience personally and also professionally and what you've learned and what you've seen. 43:32.89 The ModGolf Podcast So I'm really curious and excited to hear that. And like I said, we're going to dig more into your thoughts on the growth of the game, that multi-billion dollar golf industry opportunity, and that's the growth of the game with women. 43:48.45 The ModGolf Podcast So to finish up here, want to ask this one last question. 43:51.90 The ModGolf Podcast So the future, now that you've been in the golf industry for almost four years now, sounds like you have no plans getting out of the golf industry. I can tell from your excitement, your energy, kind of that unfiltered enthusiasm here, you're in it now. 44:09.85 The ModGolf Podcast What is your hope and desire, as you see, for Canadian golf and and beyond across the world for what golf can look like in another, let's say, five or 10 years? 44:19.62 Amaya Athill Hmm. 44:22.46 Amaya Athill My hope is that golf is more includes more women, is more diverse than ever, and not just at participatory level that we're starting to see generations of this is five years. 44:31.54 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 44:35.51 Amaya Athill So not generations of women. We're starting to see more women who are engaging with golf from beginner to amateur to career professional in golf to PGA professional to maybe even trying to elevate to get to the pro level as as a tour pro. 44:52.14 Amaya Athill I want to see more women and diverse women reflected at all levels of this sport. And that might be lofty for five years. i think it's a little lofty, but my hope and my dream is that we're seeing that diversity reflected at all levels. 45:03.16 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 45:08.38 The ModGolf Podcast Love that. Love that. So to finish up here, how can our listeners learn more about you and about Golf Canada? 45:16.60 Amaya Athill Yeah, great question. So you can find me on Instagram at golf underscore interrupted. You can also find me on LinkedIn at Amaya Athill. And of course, with Golf Canada, you can find us by Googling Golf Canada and visiting our website. A list of all of our programs are located on the website. And specifically, if you're looking for First Tee Ontario, o actually, can you pause there one second? Let me get that website up. 45:41.27 Amaya Athill Make sure I don't misquote the First Tee Ontario website. 45:43.02 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 45:46.52 Amaya Athill Yep, that's what I thought. Okay, great. FirstteaOntario.ca. And if you're looking for more information about the First Tee program and how you can register, it's firstteaOntario, one word, @.ca. 45:58.84 The ModGolf Podcast Wonderful. And as I always do for Amaya, I will include in our show notes for this episode, her contact information, the contact information for Golf Canada, and also for the First Tee Ontario and the First Tee all over North America to make it nice and easy for you to do that. 46:17.66 The ModGolf Podcast So with that, Amaya Athill, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today on the ModGolf podcast. I look forward to, like I said, jumping over to our YouTube channel for some more fun and some more insights and more learnings over there. 46:24.06 Amaya Athill Thank you for having me 46:31.38 The ModGolf Podcast So again, thank you so much for joining us today on the ModGolf podcast. 46:35.29 Amaya Athill Thank you so much, Colin. I really enjoyed it.