00:00.15 The ModGolf Podcast Welcome to the ModGolf Podcast, where we speak with the entrepreneurs, the innovators, the disruptors, and the influencers who are shaping the future of golf. I am your host, Colin Weston and Today, my guest is someone - I think we're at friendship status now. We've met a couple of times over the last year or so. 00:18.04 Renate Yeah. 00:19.88 The ModGolf Podcast We've met at the Golf Business Technology Conference in Belfast. We just met at the PGA show and the Golf Business Conference with the NGCOA in Orlando. So I think we are friends 00:32.50 Renate Yes. 00:33.53 The ModGolf Podcast There we go. 00:33.63 Renate Golf friends. 00:33.97 The ModGolf Podcast She even says before I even introduce her, and that is Renate Roeleveld. And Renate is the CEO of the GCAE, which is the Golf Course Association of Europe. 00:44.61 The ModGolf Podcast She does so much more than that in the golf industry and the space. A champion of inclusion, innovation, sustainability, all these great things across the golf industry. And don't worry, folks, she has lots to say and lots of energy. So this is going to be a good one here today. So with that, Renate, welcome to the ModGolf podcast. 01:05.30 Renate Thank you, thank you, thank you so much to be on here, Colin. 01:08.66 The ModGolf Podcast You are welcome. And from your accent, because most of our listeners are in North America here, are probably realizing you don't sound like you're from Kentucky. So where are you joining us from here today? 01:18.36 Renate No. I'm joining you from the Netherlands, actually, just above Amsterdam. That's where I live. And although I have a close bond with Canada because I've got a lot of relatives in Canada. So I love the country as well. 01:32.41 The ModGolf Podcast And to that that point, I'm in Vancouver. You had mentioned in a month or two, you were going to be here on vacation. 01:38.23 Renate Yes. 01:38.73 The ModGolf Podcast So hopefully you and I see each other in person again and maybe even tee it up for a round of golf if you have time in your hectic schedule. So that'll be fun. 01:45.50 Renate Exactly. Because we are golf friends, but we never played golf together. Right? 01:50.39 The ModGolf Podcast That is true. Well, who knows? Maybe after playing round of golf with me, you won't want to be friends anymore. But I think we'll have a good time out there. We will definitely have a good time out there. 01:56.47 Renate Yeah. 02:09.30 The ModGolf Podcast So back in May last year, I had the pleasure in Belfast of moderating a panel that you were on that we talked about, talking about diversity inclusion in the golf industry. And you had lots of insightful and very firm opinions on what we're doing well and what we're not doing great. So we're going to dig into that here. But I always love to ask this icebreaker question, even though you and I have had many conversations, I've never asked you this one. And that revolves around... Your introduction to golf. I would love to hear your first ever golf experience. Who was that person that introduced you to golf at whatever age that was and your first positive golf experience that got you into the game, that first swing and wherever that was in your life? 02:54.39 Renate Actually, it was work, funnily enough. 02:56.46 Renate It was not a person. it was When I studied hotel management in Hotel School The Hague, and then when I was, I had, I forgot to sign in for my, for my, i said my sort of like my my exams, but it's not an exam, but in the first year. 03:12.47 Renate And then I had quite some time to spend because I only had one retake I had to take to ah pass on to the next year. 03:12.89 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 03:20.43 Renate And then I started working at a golf course in the clubhouse, obviously, because I studied hotel management. So I was i worked in F&B very often. ah So that was my first encounter with golf. 03:33.97 Renate funnily enough at that time it was six months or the or something like that i never picked up a club but my family i don't have a golfing background so my family didn't play golf and then um i well i traveled around finished my sister as as a studies etc i came back to the Netherlands looking for another job and it was back in 2000 And then one of my best friends, i so of course, we didn't have the internet back then. 04:00.27 Renate And um there was an advertisement in newspaper and it said sales and events manager at Berg Golf in the Netherlands, actually the first multi-course owner in the Netherlands. 04:11.58 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. 04:11.60 Renate So I called so i called my best friend i said, what do you think? Isn't it a bit Mickey Mouse to work in golf? Because it wasn't big back then. And then she said, no, no, it will be fun. 04:20.92 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 04:23.62 Renate Just go and venture. So I went there, got all the interviews, got hired. And that's when I started playing golf, actually. And I really loved it from the beginning. 04:34.08 Renate And I think my first, well, four years, I was the champion of the driving range. But also, the funny thing was I took a lot of classes with my golf pro who actually still is one of my very best friends and never stopped playing. 04:43.34 The ModGolf Podcast Love it. 04:55.58 Renate So it was, well, if I would have to name one person, it was Martin, my golf pro and friend, my dear friends. 05:03.42 The ModGolf Podcast I love that. I love that. So you're similar to me, even though different ingredients, myself coming from an architecture background and then stumbling into golf. I never i didn't grow up and around golf. No in my family plays either. So you and I are kind of like golf twins or orphans in that way. 05:19.06 The ModGolf Podcast and i love that. We didn't grow up around the game. 05:22.04 Renate No. 05:23.48 The ModGolf Podcast But here you are, not trying to age you here, but a quarter century later into your career. And now golf is sounds like this is where you're meant to be. So now a fast forward to all the work that you do right now. 05:36.63 The ModGolf Podcast ah But let's just focus on your work. with the Golf Course Association of Europe for people, especially in North America, there is the NGCOA, the National Golf Course Owners Association. 05:48.70 The ModGolf Podcast I know you're affiliated with them. 05:49.37 Renate Yeah. 05:50.38 The ModGolf Podcast Why don't you let our listeners know what the GCAE does? What is their raison d'être? Why do they exist? What do they do and why do they do it? 05:59.28 Renate Yeah. Yeah. What we do is we represent golf course owners and operators the same as the NGCOA does. I always say we inspire ah golf facilities, we inform golf facilities. 06:11.64 Renate And with that, I mean, what's on what's happening in the markets? What are the trends? What are the numbers? what are What is the data? We connect them, same as you have in Canada and in the US, the 06:22.81 The ModGolf Podcast Thank 06:24.22 Renate ah conference, the yearly conference, we have a European conference next to the national owner associations have their conferences. I will get to that later. And i think that one very important part of this is we represent them. 06:38.19 Renate And with representation, I mean that we try to be at the table where the decisions are being made about golf and governance and how that impacts a golf facility because I feel it's important to let the voice of the owners or operators being heard at that table to make decisions that ah if if decisions are being made that at least the perspective of the owner or operator is taken into into that decision process. 07:04.82 Renate um The one thing that is of course different from in Europe is that we have we are the European association. Our members are national own association. 07:16.41 Renate Not every country has a national own association. But so I'm the umbrella of all the National Owners Association. And we also have corporate members like the NGCOA as well, and that are the multi-course owners. That's also a bit smaller in size than in North America, but we also are the connector between the multi-course owners. 07:38.52 Renate So that's what we do as a GCAE. 07:42.98 The ModGolf Podcast I'm curious to hear if you can expand on that. So right now, how many countries do you represent in approximately how many golf facilities? 07:53.34 Renate Approximately 12,000 1,300 golf facilities and we spread the Nordics. So Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, France, Spain, Portugal. 08:11.77 Renate We have single course owners as well that are member because normally we have national members. We also now have single course owners in Poland. We've got Estonia. And they're coming in, is they're reviving their national owners association. 08:31.50 Renate Chech Republic as well. So a big variety. 08:35.16 The ModGolf Podcast There we go. Sounds very diverse. And could you dig down a little more into the kind of the diversity of the offerings? 08:43.19 Renate Yeah. 08:44.33 The ModGolf Podcast In North America here, we've really got kind of three types. We've got public or municipal, kind of city or town run courses. 08:50.28 Renate Yeah. 08:51.50 The ModGolf Podcast We have daily rate courses, that just public courses we call them, and then also private courses. So we've got those three. Can you expand or elaborate on the mix? 08:59.33 Renate Yeah. Yeah. 09:02.00 The ModGolf Podcast I'm sure every country is different. What you actually get in Ireland is compared to even let's say in the Netherlands is probably different than Portugal. So you can kind of give us ah a little bit of a snapshot of what we're talking. 09:10.29 Renate Yeah. 09:11.80 The ModGolf Podcast If I'm, if I'm in Europe and want to, want to play golf. 09:15.16 Renate Yeah, sure. Now, yeah it's indeed a different landscape than the North American market and also in that matter for the UK markets. Of course, golf in UK is lot, I would say, older than it is in more mainland Europe. 09:29.75 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 09:30.58 Renate I think when you look at it, but the one of the big differences is that the federations in European countries are quite strong. You have the USDA or the, I don't know what called in Canada, actually. 09:42.07 Renate Is it also USDA that the that hand out the handicaps? So yeah, yeah, yeah. 09:46.49 The ModGolf Podcast yeah We have Golf golf Canada. Golf Canada and then the provincial ones like British Columbia Golf here, which is the equivalent of the section that we have here. 09:50.03 Renate Gulf Canada. Yeah. 09:55.40 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 09:55.80 Renate yeah Yeah, but it's in Europe you have the federations and the federations are, ah they've been ah they've they've been raised because of clubs. Of course, golf was really organized around clubs, members becoming clubs, clubs becoming federations. um Federations are again very strong because that's the way golf is organized in most countries. 10:20.70 Renate Then in Scandinavia, I would say most clubs are private privately owned ah courses that by its members, right? So the members are the owners of the course and you have to become a member before you can start playing golf there. 10:40.98 Renate The south of Europe is a completely different story because in Spain and Portugal, it's far more, the number of local players is quite low, but the tourist play is very high. 10:53.23 Renate So there that's much more commercial. 10:53.59 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 10:56.67 Renate um And in the middle of Europe, it's more a mixture. We have ah private courses and private courses, again, i call courses that are owned by a club. And they have they do allow some greenfield players in, but it's mostly ah members playing there. 11:12.71 Renate And we've got the pay and play courses or the very public courses. The munis, as you have them in North America, we don't really have them. we have yeah We have some of them, but it's not as big in Europe as it is in North America. 11:28.25 The ModGolf Podcast Understood. Understood. So a couple of the pillars I want to talk about, and we've had these conversations about kind of inclusivity and growing the game and making it accessible for people, perhaps like both you and I that have never played the game before and how do we get into it? 11:42.33 The ModGolf Podcast And then also the innovation side and in embracing technology with that. 11:42.68 Renate Yeah. Yeah. 11:47.21 The ModGolf Podcast And then also the environmental piece. So between innovation and entrepreneurship and the business side and welcoming into the game. Let's start with ah the ah inclusivity piece. 11:59.18 The ModGolf Podcast I'm sure every country and every a member that you have is a little bit different of what their priorities are. But over our, over let me do that one more time. 12:09.18 Renate yeah 12:09.30 The ModGolf Podcast But overarching, I'd like to hear What are the priorities? What's important for you as far as growing the game, especially for young people or more women involved? 12:19.60 The ModGolf Podcast So what how are you being proactive? And maybe give a couple of examples, maybe a couple of wins that the organization has had or maybe a particular club has had as far as making the game more welcoming and inviting to people that otherwise wouldn't wouldn't think of golf as a recreational option. 12:33.18 Renate Yeah. 12:38.23 Renate Well, i would i would I would actually say that the tech has opened up and made it more welcome. 12:44.82 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 12:44.88 Renate The tech, of course, the tech that has been introduced in golf the recent years is, I would say COVID in tech. I think that those are two ah major factors and we can all pat ourselves on the back and say, oh, we did so well as golf. 13:01.11 Renate And of course, we're doing that as well. But I think the real growth ah comes from society itself. Again, through COVID, more ah the pastime or how people spend time or plan their day, of course, has really changed. 13:17.58 Renate More people work at home. So more people have time to, for example, start playing golf. 13:20.48 The ModGolf Podcast Thank you. 13:22.06 Renate That helps. The tech really helps because it became far more interesting and more easily accessible, I would say, and more fun, especially for the young people. 13:32.79 Renate So when we look at the big growth, I think we all contributed to it. But I think COVID and tech are two major factors that it really grew. 13:42.87 Renate And then depends on what you do and if we can keep the people in golf. um Women in golf, you know it a bit, right? 13:53.24 Renate That's my big passion. 13:54.49 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 13:54.52 Renate And something that I've been um i've been actively ah trying to engage more with. I've been actually trying to engage more women already at my own course. 14:06.58 Renate I've managed golf courses for 25 years. And the last course I worked back in 2014, I thought there are not enough women of my age or who look like me, I would say, in golf. 14:21.89 Renate So i need to do I need to change that. And I decided to start a program for it, not knowing anything about it yet, but just thought, let's just give it a go and see you what works. 14:35.77 Renate So I started Fab Friday, Fabulous Friday, of course, you know the program, right? 14:40.44 The ModGolf Podcast yes 14:40.65 Renate I started Feb Friday, every Friday, just an hour of golf and whether it was a class or a couple of holes, just one hour, just after bringing the kids to school and back in time to pick them up to go for lunch or anything, just one hour to fit in we busy women's schedules. 14:59.98 Renate So we started that. It took a while to get it moving. That's one of the lessons I learned. Up to now, the program is still running. And during these past 12 years, we've put hundreds of women through the program. And was really built to get them 15:20.76 Renate properly introduced, I would say. It its it was not for ladies who or women who already played golf or were at a high level, but really to to some women who already maybe had some knowledge or some classes, but didn't feel comfortable yet to really get going. And ah that, like I said, the introduction program, it worked wonders. And by doing it and by At a certain stage, when you when you start doing it, you start you start seeing what's actually happening, I would say. You start noticing behaviour. You start noticing on 16:00.31 Renate you start noticing how how many of the same remarks you get along the route. And through that, I realized that we're not the same, right? 16:11.17 Renate I always say we're equal, but we're not the same. And then, of course, I mean, men and women. 16:14.81 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 16:16.17 Renate And we're all not the same, but men and women. And I think when you realize the differences on how we experience golf, especially when we start, and you can you work your way around it, I think you can grow the number of female participation big time. But again, you have to see and realize what those small hurdles are and work your way around it. And then it's actually quite easy. 16:49.14 Renate And then you ask me what they are or not. 16:53.14 The ModGolf Podcast Well, I love the work that you also do, I believe, with the the the ah the agency that you have, where you do a lot of your golf consulting through with Golf La La Land. By the way, I love the name of that. That is so much fun. 17:04.63 The ModGolf Podcast Really great. 17:04.76 Renate Yeah. 17:05.35 The ModGolf Podcast So I'm assuming that you do to grow the game with women and what you've just spoke of there. So you're using that more as a testing ground for that. So I'm curious to hear now with the activations that you've created with this platform, is that expanding over Europe or other courses now trying that? Are you able to scale that, I guess is a good way to put that. So it's not just you alone working it at your home course, but is that now starting to propagate across other courses that are seeing the the positive results that And the wins that you're getting by growing the game and making it accessible and inviting and fun for women and other courses all over Europe are now doing this. 17:48.17 Renate Well, not Europe as yet. I only have two hands and one head, but I must say I'm proud that the basic of my the basis of my Feb Friday was the start of the Women's Golf Project in the Netherlands. 17:54.26 The ModGolf Podcast yeah 18:06.32 Renate And we did, with the together with the Federation and the National Owners Association in the Netherlands, we started this project called Women's Golf. 18:14.91 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah. 18:17.53 Renate And again, it was based on the on my findings on how we can lower the threshold, lower the hurdle to for women to enter golf. We did some pilots with other courses. And i can vividly remember because we if we one one course, 18:40.82 Renate wow i Just to come back to to the program a bit more, I said every course that starts with the pilots within the Netherlands that we arranged it, they need to have an activator. 18:51.99 Renate And with an activator, I wanted to have a woman from within the peer groups of the woman that they wanted to attract. um They had this one course. It was very spot on. We had the best activator. We had a female president at the golf course who was very keen on getting more women in. So that they were in the pilot. They followed the program. And I think within two weeks, she phoned me and she said, Renata, what do I do? 19:21.46 Renate We put it on LinkedIn, we put it on our Facebook of the club and within two or one and a half, two weeks, they had more of more than a hundred applicants for the program. 19:32.31 The ModGolf Podcast Amazing. 19:32.57 Renate And they were like, what do I do? Because i don't know how to handle this anymore. 19:36.41 Renate And it was just amazing. Right. So if you if you know if you know how to do it and if you know how to start organizing it, it's well, it can really help to enlarge the number of female participation. 19:50.05 Renate And again, that's one of my major passions. And next to that, me being female in a senior position, I would say in golf is one thing that that helps And I'm very happy that you have Natalie with the Canadian NGCOA because I think we need more. 20:09.30 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 20:12.41 Renate We definitely need more women in leadership positions in golf because we know also how women feel who start playing golf or in general, we we know how women feel. So I think the balance, of course, it's all about balance. 20:25.05 Renate And I think there should be should be bringing a more little bit more balance on that side. 20:30.55 The ModGolf Podcast ah Absolutely. Well, that that segues nicely into my next question is you've been working hard to get more women involved in the recreational side of playing the game. But yes, let's talk about that balance of getting more women involved as their profession, their career, just like with you, happened to stumble into it 25 years ago. And now here you are. 21:05.59 The ModGolf Podcast So i'm curious to learn with the with the work that you do and also with the GCAE, how are you encouraging women to look at golf as a career that perhaps have not been involved in golf? Let's say with you, put yourself back in the time machine 25 years earlier that you just happened to kind of randomly choose that. And here you are, but how do you and all the golf course owners and operators, how do they proactively encourage more women to get involved in the game? 21:40.79 The ModGolf Podcast So we get that balance so they can choose that as a career, not just, so not just to play the game, but more importantly, that they'll have careers in golf across all aspects of it. 21:44.74 Renate Yeah. 21:50.26 The ModGolf Podcast And then of course, moving up into leadership roles like yourself. 21:54.84 Renate Yeah in general, like you said, we see a lot of men working in golf. 21:59.00 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 22:01.10 Renate I know in North America, a lot of um golf courses are run by professionals. That's not the same. ah Well, we have some in Europe, but that's not the same. Like the most directors of golf are trained golf professionals. 22:19.58 Renate In Europe, it might be a variety of other skills you have, but not necessarily being a good golfer. And I think saying that is one of the most important things as well, because I think we are in the people's business, right? I think what we do with our sport is connect people together. 22:39.54 Renate We are in a hospitality business. We sell a product that is not there anymore tomorrow, because if I don't sell my tea time today, it will not be there tomorrow. So my product is not only a round of golf, but my product is the experience I deliver. 22:49.75 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 22:55.61 Renate And funnily enough, if you ask me, women are um in general, it's more of in our nature to take care of people. 23:03.81 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 23:04.41 Renate So in general, when you look at the job, it's quite logical that there's always a woman also somewhere in your organization, because we tend to take care of people in a hospitality environment. 23:16.65 Renate That's the most important thing to take care of person. 23:18.45 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. yes 23:19.54 Renate So in that sense, and I think what happened in the Netherlands, I can say for that for the Dutch situation, When I started back in golf, like I just explained at Berg Golf, the guy who was running again that first MCO in the Netherlands, he he he also wanted to have more hospitality people in. 23:37.11 Renate In general, I think in the in the Netherlands half, maybe not completely half, but at least 40% of managers of golf courses are female. 23:48.74 The ModGolf Podcast Great. 23:48.98 Renate because once it started 25 years ago that we needed more hospitality attitude so that and because the MCO was also an example to other golf courses. That's why it grew the number of female managers and again the number of female participation and um it's absolutely no scientific research but The number of female participation in the Netherlands is also quite high. 23:49.30 The ModGolf Podcast great 24:20.54 Renate I don't know if it's correlation, but it might be possible. 24:23.03 The ModGolf Podcast There very well might be, but I find it interesting, with your background in hospitality, that ties into your awareness and appreciation and understanding of the value of customer and patron experience across all the touch points of being arriving at the golf course until you leave and even even afterwards in the technology piece ah being involved in that. 24:38.90 Renate Yep. 24:48.95 The ModGolf Podcast I want to keep going here on the technology side. So are you finding that golf courses across Europe, and once again, I'm sure there's a wide spectrum that some are kind of resistant or as we call Luddites, maybe they're not embracing technology and other ones are way out in front. 24:52.88 Renate yep 25:05.97 The ModGolf Podcast So I'd like to hear overall the landscape of within the organization, the association of embracing technology, for all the aspects of cu you know just for efficiencies ah as compared to North America that it is still all over the place that there's some golf courses that they can still use paper tee sheets to write everything down and and a phone to book things they would and wouldn't even have a website and other ones are using AI and are out there to make sure everything are optimized as much as possible and everything in between so So yeah, give us a bit of a snapshot ah across Europe of how technology is being embraced um and and maybe cite an an example of maybe a win that that you've seen that that that makes you happy that things are moving in that direction. 25:52.15 Renate Yeah of course, it's also the same. We also still have courses that have paper T-sheets. On the other hand, I think I have sometimes have some so discussions also with North American golf friends or acquaintances about this, because the landscape here is also diverse. 26:11.10 Renate But I think in general, I would say that we tech-wise, a lot of courses have apps, they have websites, they have online bookings. So I think in that sense that we have tech is really are how do you say accepted, used, etc. 26:33.62 Renate Tech, indoor golf, if we if we speak about tech, indoor golf in in the Nordics is very big and growing very fast. It's obvious because there's a lot of snow there, like in Canada. 26:47.16 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 26:48.06 Renate But it is really big and it's being embraced big time. 26:48.12 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 26:52.94 Renate In the Netherlands, when I look at tech on ranges, it's growing very fast. And it's logical when I would ask any golf ah facility owner or operator in 10 years time, do will you have tech? And I say, yeah, I'm not sure yet how to do it. 27:13.18 Renate Looking at the general landscape, do you think in 10 years time, how many golf courses will have tech on the range? Everybody's just all of them. There's no way back. There's no way back, I think, in tech. 27:24.74 Renate Don't you agree? 27:24.87 The ModGolf Podcast Oh, 100%. Absolutely. 27:31.92 Renate So tech is too but it's both ways, for the golfer experience, we're just at the beginning and hopefully we're just the beginning tech when you look at systems that you use as an owner and operator it will that that really will change as well and that will be a bit technical but the way the programs are set up and the data you need as an operator to really run your business professionally it will change as well it needs to change because it's getting more capital intensive as we go so i think it needs another approach to that. 28:05.45 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 28:11.34 Renate And we need tech for that to get more data in. But the third thing, I think is interesting in tech, what the big difference is that you do see is that the adaption of electrical mowing and robotic mowing is bigger in Europe than in the US. 28:27.65 Renate And I think that's interesting. 28:56.03 The ModGolf Podcast So yes, when you and I were in Belfast last year, i then became aware that robotic mowers are much more prevalent in European golf courses. 29:07.51 The ModGolf Podcast I would say about maybe one or two or three years ahead of the North American market of the embracing of that technology. 29:14.11 Renate Yeah. 29:15.74 The ModGolf Podcast So I'd love to hear how technology, maybe it's technology or even just mindset, to kind of shifted a little bit here, of how that is affecting technology Golf course owner and operators mindset to do with environmental sustainability. We talk about becoming more climate resilient now with, of course, with heat waves, with drought and then flooding. and in some areas, if you're you know next to the ocean, have a beautiful view, you run the threat in the next couple of years of either being flooded or even - hate to say it, even falling into the ocean. 29:51.33 Renate Yeah. 29:52.34 The ModGolf Podcast So I'm just curious to hear ah kind of what the mindset is with your members of that's something that they're taking seriously or they're looking at it. Oh, maybe that's someone else's problem, 5, 10, 20, 30 years down the road, or are you embracing that and being proactive, whether it's using technology like mowers so you are more efficient, using less water, 30:13.02 The ModGolf Podcast less pesticides, less energy. ah so yeah, kind of give us a snapshot of where things are and progressed over the last couple of years and where things are going in the direction as far as that sustainability side on golf courses. 30:24.92 Renate Yeah, i think well, there's a big difference. And one of the biggest differences is rules and regulations. 30:29.80 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 30:29.88 Renate And that also changes, of course, that also influences the attitude of golf course owners and operators. We have some countries in Europe where pesticides, fungicides, et cetera, they're not allowed to use them anymore. So that really changes how you how you maintain your golf course. It takes different thinking. It takes different techniques. 30:54.65 Renate Again, when we talk about tech, tech helps there a lot as well. I recently had a discussion with a group of, we had a round table with some greenskeepers. And we also discussed like the greenskeepers of the future are real more data guys, because we need a lot more data. to see what's happening on the courses where you can be less dependent on your pesticides and fungicides, right? That's a correlation in itself. And I think the, when you talk about um ah electric mowing, robotic mowing, that is, of course, it had really, it influences the use of your gas, which at the moment that we speak, the prices are quite high. 31:33.14 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 31:33.90 Renate So in that sense, electric mowing helps. But also on the staffing side, it's really difficult to get, to get you know, good ah staff to put on a mower. 31:47.14 Renate And again, we the discussion with the greenskeepers was will it shift to complete electrical or robotic mowing? And again, that greenskeepers have the task to read data and see where they have to start you know starts airing or ferty draining. 31:56.61 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 32:10.52 Renate I don't know the English words. you But ah but you know they're doing the bigger maintenance and seeing when that needs to happen to do the maintenance in a different way. 32:16.25 The ModGolf Podcast yes 32:20.04 Renate On the other hand, I think when you look at how we progressed over the years with all the knowledge that we have, that is also implication that we are far better at keeping, of course, winter playable as well with all the new technology, the products are just better, the drain, the drainage. So one of the greenskeeper said, we are actually our own worst enemy because it got so busy on the courses because they're so well maintained that they can just keep, keep can keep on playing. 32:56.76 Renate And i think it was quite funny that he said it, and it's true. And also, like you say, Weather-wise, we have had a lot more rain in Europe. 33:08.73 Renate Actually, very different. In the Nordics now, it has been extremely cold. And in the South, they had so much more rain than they ever had. And now all the dams are full, while normally they have a lack of water. So indeed, it's quite prevalent, but also really because of rules and regulations from a European perspective that Brussels, as we call it. They say we can't do we can't use anymore Denmark is out of pesticides and Wallonia is out of completely pesticide free Switzerland is going there, so we are forced to think about it more energy wise, price wise, but also rules regulation wise. And I think there is quite a difference between North America and a Europe there. 33:57.46 The ModGolf Podcast Interesting. Interesting. Sticking to how Europe is different than North America in many ways in the golf industry, I'm curious to hear about the trends of kind of golf course competition. 34:12.63 The ModGolf Podcast growth in the sense that, well, in North America, for example, there's a lot of short courses that are now opening up, whether they're par three courses or the short game practice areas that we have and certain companies that are doing that, where municipal courses, some of them are closing now. 34:33.52 The ModGolf Podcast Actually, this is another topic for another podcast altogether. But now with the growth in AI and needing these massive data centers, that data centers are buying up golf courses. 34:44.44 Renate Oh, yeah. 34:46.94 The ModGolf Podcast They're able to pay 10 times the value. And if I was a golf course owner, an operator, and a family, and it's worth whatever, and they're offering me 10 times as much, of course, you're going to take that as an exit strategy. so So there's some contraction there that golf courses are closing of the 15,000, 16,000 golf courses we have in North America. 35:04.60 The ModGolf Podcast but there is growth in other areas, at the high end of luxury courses seem to be growing. There's a market there, but the middle is getting squeezed and there's growth on the shorter courses here, which is great for introducing people, ah younger people and first time golfers to the game. 35:15.00 Renate Yeah. 35:22.73 The ModGolf Podcast So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, let's say the last five years or, and even where it's going, what's on the books, what are opening up, what, yeah where's the mix in golf courses from country to country in Europe? Well, it's interesting and I don think it's quite the same although the pressure on land is evident everywhere. And I think, as Jay of the NGCOA has nicely put it, the dirt is worth more than the business. 35:51.90 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 35:52.01 Renate And I like that expression. And it's and it is true. But then again, i think what we have to do as golf facilities in general is really to show more because I think that's one of the things in golf that we've did for, well, and i I speak for Europe, of course, the last years, we we didn't we haven't spoken ah enough on what we actually offer, not only to the golfer itself, but in general, also to ah to the environment. 36:13.51 The ModGolf Podcast Thank you. 36:22.26 Renate I think the biodiversity on a lot of golf courses, especially of course, when they're maintained very sustainable, is that we we we offer, a lot of golf courses are, we have have a big biodiversity. We offer a home to a lot of birds, insects. 36:50.49 Renate We have to do a better job to show also what we contribute to a community. we are i often say we are the green lungs within urban areas. And I think we should showcase it more. And especially now with times are changing, the pressure on people is getting higher. i don't know if you have already heard about the nature pyramid. 37:14.81 The ModGolf Podcast No, I have not. 37:14.93 Renate It's like a pyramid of Maslow. And it's called the nature pyramid. And in there, they sort of like say on how often you should see a tree like every day, walk in a park every week, go out, venture into mountains or the woods or whatever, at least once a month for your mental health. 37:36.50 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 37:37.24 Renate Because green has a lot of influence on your mental health. And golf it's always see been seen as more elite sport, but which we might be because it can it can be expensive when you go to the high end courses. But I think in that sense, the Munis are very important to give people calm, give people a calm a green space to go to. So in that sense, golf courses contribute to community with just the assets that they have, which is green. And I think when you say short formats, I love short formats. And that is also a big thing. Also recently had a conversation with someone and who was speaking about golfers. And so I asked, what do you consider a golfer? 38:27.67 Renate And I think that's the interesting discussion that we need to have because people see a golfer as someone who plays preferably 18 holes at a very nice course. But everybody who has a club and a ball and hits it is a golfer. Whether you do it on a range or whether you do it on an 18 hole course or whether you do it on a short format. 38:51.06 Renate And the short formats is the answer to the mid layer of people between starting or the very avid golf player who wants to play two or three or four times a week. And I think the short courses offer the perfect possibility for people who have less time or who have busy lives, who have families. 39:17.05 Renate or who do multiple sports. So I love short formats. And I think that's really a new, also I would say new product that we as golf can offer that is there to stay. 39:29.14 Renate And you don't necessarily have to play 18 holes to be a golfer, right? 39:33.69 The ModGolf Podcast No, no. And then tying in, of course, with your hospitality background, that whole entertainment piece that, of course, Topgolf had developed for the last decade and a half. And now with indoor golf, whether they're for entertainment or if it's simulators just for for a club that you have as a membership to play, that's a golf experience too. 39:50.87 Renate Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 39:54.24 The ModGolf Podcast So it's really interesting. I agree. What is considered golf has changed. It's not necessarily 18 holes anymore. That's for sure. 40:04.79 The ModGolf Podcast So hey, the the couple of minutes I have here with you now, I want to kind of switch from golf a little bit because I've just learned that a couple of years ago, you ran the New York City Marathon, not once, but twice. And I didn't even know that you were a runner. I know you're a recreational runner, just like a recreational golfer. 40:21.23 Renate Yes. 40:23.29 The ModGolf Podcast So to tell us about that experience. So what when was the first time you ran it? And what was what was that like? 40:30.55 Renate Well coming back to the short formats, I believe that while i'm not young anymore but younger generation, we do multiple sports, right? 40:41.82 Renate So that's why also short formats are good because you don't necessarily end up being a lifetime member of a golf club anymore. 40:49.88 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 40:49.90 Renate So short formats and tech is good. for the newer generation who does multiple sports. Well, one of my other sports is indeed running. It's sort of like my mental health hour. 41:03.03 Renate Well, I run more every week, but my it was always like my every Sunday morning I got my run. I let all my thoughts go through my mind. And then when I get back, they're all sort of like, yeah all in order. 41:16.98 Renate So i I love running and I thought, well, of course, that's my nature. 41:17.24 The ModGolf Podcast There we go. 41:22.86 Renate i always want to do more, go further, go faster, go. That's my nature. I was i always want to go ahead. So I said, OK, one time I will run a marathon and um four is my lucky number. 41:37.10 Renate Don't may ask me why, but four my lucky number. So when I turned 44, it was in 2018, two times four. On the 4th of November it was the New York Marathon. So I said, okay, one time in my life I have to run a New York Marathon. 41:46.09 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 41:48.30 Renate So I started training. I trained a lot. I had some issues back then at my F&B class at the club where I was working. So I also worked a lot running around. 42:00.87 Renate So I ran or walked and I made more than 10,000 steps a day, I can say. So off I went, started the New York marathon and I've already at the beginning, I felt my ankle and I was like, oh, what am i feeling? 42:15.98 Renate It was progressing and I felt it more and more. And then at, I know now a kilometre 32, I for sort of like felt a snap and I was like, oh, it must be information or something. 42:28.02 Renate So I finished, but sort of like in a tunnel vision because I had a lot of pain on my ankle. 42:35.12 The ModGolf Podcast Wow. 42:35.96 Renate And well, the strange story is then that I went back home, back in the plane. i My ankle grew to the size of an elephant's leg. 42:48.09 Renate And went to the doctor and I had to go to get an x-ray and it appeared that I broke my leg while running the marathon. 42:55.93 The ModGolf Podcast wow 42:56.63 Renate which which is a very, very stupid thing to do. But then, but I know now it was at kilometre 32 because i was the last 10 kilometres, i was I was like sort of in a tunnel. 43:10.58 Renate So I never really experienced it. And of course, I was really looking forward to the moment when you run through Central Park to finish, because that's actually the whole idea of running the New York Marathon, right? 43:19.64 The ModGolf Podcast Right, right. 43:20.92 Renate um so then i So then I thought I have to do it again because I really want to experience it. So back in 2024, again, I just did it again. And now I finished. 43:31.16 Renate And now I still wonder how I ever managed to do this last 10Ks with a broken leg because my my i think my legs even hurt more. the last time than it did the first time but um so i now i've done it and i've now i never have to do it again i mean i still run but not a marathon anymore although i love experience 43:48.37 The ModGolf Podcast Well, 43:50.87 The ModGolf Podcast But you're lucky your lucky number is four. Come on, you have to run it four times. No, you'll use four in other ways. 43:58.89 The ModGolf Podcast Well, wow, your pain tolerance and threshold is unbelievably high. Well, then again, you are a mother. You've a given birth. So you know you pain, you can handle it. 44:08.24 The ModGolf Podcast No problem at all. Wow, wow. 44:11.42 Renate Yeah. 44:11.82 The ModGolf Podcast So what, from your running experience, not just breaking a leg and running 10k on that but let's say all your other running experience what do you take away from the experience of running that translates over into whether you're playing golf or even your approach to your work in the golf industry so what what character traits has golf has running taught you or uh that you embrace from that that uh that you translate over to golf 44:40.57 Renate It's actually a beautiful question because that's one of the things I think about when I run. Because it does translate, I think it translates to life in general. 44:52.18 Renate And that is when you do a lot of long running, what what I had to do, of course, in as preparation for my marathon, I mean, you go up to like 35 kilometres per run. 45:07.89 Renate And i the first time I ran up to 67 kilometres per week. So you do a lot of running and a lot of thinking. 45:13.25 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah. Yeah. 45:14.17 Renate And what I love about running and what translates to life and also to playing a round of golf is that you have highs and lows. 45:26.74 Renate And if you just keep on going, keep on focusing on what you're doing, putting your best foot forward, you will get out of there. you'll get you'll make it to whatever finish line there is or what you consider yourself a finish line. 45:41.88 Renate Because there's always this moment in a run where you think, oh my God, what am I doing here? I'm going to stop. But if you just don't give in, focus on what you're doing, telling yourself you're able to do it, change your mindset by either smiling, because sometimes I just start smiling because then your body makes you feel better, right? 45:58.17 The ModGolf Podcast Thank you. 46:01.46 Renate Check in on your form, check in if you're still running efficiently. That's what we do in life as well, right? Is everything in what you do or is your golf swing efficient or is your business running efficient? 46:13.11 Renate Check in on yourself, adjust where possible and then move on again. And I think that's a parallel with life, right? 46:21.46 The ModGolf Podcast I love that response. And it's a parallel for golf golf also. yes when Next time I hit a bad golf shot, and I'm sure that'll happen very ah very soon, being a 16 handicapper, that I hit some amazing shots and some ones that what does happen there, i'll make I'll make sure that I smile after I hit that bad shot. 46:38.73 The ModGolf Podcast I am going to reprogram myself that that's what what I do. Okay, so to finish up here, I want to stick with this theme, the power of four, your lucky number here. going to put you on the spot. 46:50.17 The ModGolf Podcast Can you list four awesome things that golf clubs members have done? I know you talked about Fab Fridays that you do also, but let's say four other things, whether it's an innovation, inclusivity, the environment, technology, whatever that is, maybe just give us four quick examples of ah of of things that ah that make you proud within the organization that of that that clubs have implemented over the last couple of years. 47:19.42 Renate What made me proud was four things, for examples. I think i think I've said it before, I really applaud the ones who take a forward approach to golf. 47:32.04 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 47:35.16 Renate in a sense of seeing it as an experience, the capability of changing along with what society's needs wants. 47:47.14 Renate So I think the experience, I love it. I think it's a very important step. We took recently, that's a nice example. In the Netherlands, we formed the Gulf Alliance together with the Greenskeepers and the Federation and the Owners Association. 48:04.19 Renate And we made a confidence in which we are ahead of the rules and regulations that we say we want to be as sustainable as possible because we feel it's important for the planet, our future. 48:18.97 Renate to be ah to maybe be be ahead of the game. And not all golfers or all players will say, I want to have the most sustainable course, but maybe we'll get there in the future. But it was a great initiative of golf course owners together it with the Federation and the Greenskeepers to go and do that. 48:39.45 Renate And I think a very specific um example Ooh, you put me on the spot there. I think in general, everybody, like I already said, i i want to applaud one company ah in Portugal. 48:58.65 Renate It's called Details. They have a lot of golf courses in the in the south of Europe now, and they're really looking at golf as part of a lifestyle. 49:10.55 Renate So so they're adjusting their whole clubhouse, their whole experience on the golf course, into how can we facilitate the whole family around it. 49:10.71 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. Hmm. 49:19.71 Renate And I love their approach as well and on how they do that. And when you speak about diversion diversity and inclusion, I think the most important thing is what I always say, um if you want to change something, talk with the person and not about the person or group or how do you say community, or whether it's youngsters, whether it's women, whether it's seniors, whether it's disabled, I don't care, but talk with them on how you can get them in. And I think i there are a lot of small examples in Europe on courses or also big ones that show that when you start the conversation, you can really achieve a lot. 50:07.26 The ModGolf Podcast Love that. 50:08.63 The ModGolf Podcast That is good. I know I put you on the spot there with four. That was that that was a lot to ask there, but you nailed that. I'm going to give you an A plus on that one. You did great. 50:16.67 Renate Perfect. 50:17.10 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. So, hey, Renate, to finish up here, how can people learn more about you, what you do with GolfLaLaLand? 50:25.16 The ModGolf Podcast And if they want to learn a little bit more, what's going on in the European golf landscape with the GCAE? What's the best way that they can they can find out more? 50:35.48 Renate Oh, they can. We have a website of the GCAE, which is called gcae.eu. 50:42.14 Renate And please, well, follow me on a LinkedIn. I post a lot on LinkedIn of what's everything that's happening to me or ah to the organization in gulf golf. GolfLaLaLand is not really up to par yet because I have to def divide my time. 50:57.08 Renate And my head is always bubbling with so many ideas. Yeah. 51:02.81 The ModGolf Podcast Oh, yes. Yes, it is. 51:04.86 Renate And and i've got I've got quite some projects to go, but that that will be my future thing to get more information, what everything is on my in my brain to put out on GolfLaLaLand one time. 51:16.63 The ModGolf Podcast Love this. All right. 51:18.02 The ModGolf Podcast Hey, why don't we finish up there? Also for our listeners, Why don't you become viewers also? Because Renate and I are going to jump over to the ModGolf YouTube channel. We're going to shoot a short video, extend our conversation here. So it's going to be a different conversation. So why don't you do that too? I will include the link to the video in the show notes. And I will also include the ah all the links to everything that Renate had just mentioned there. So it's nice and easy to get in touch with her. So Renate Roeleveld, I always love the conversation with you. I'm so so looking forward to seeing you again in person in Vancouver a little bit later this summer here. 51:55.96 Renate Yes. Yes. 52:02.51 The ModGolf Podcast Perhaps we'll shoot a video of you and i hitting a golf ball. Hopefully not with a broken leg or anything like that. 52:06.81 Renate Yes. 52:10.19 The ModGolf Podcast We'll play on two good legs, hopefully, and we'll persevere and through that. 52:12.54 Renate Yes. 52:16.76 The ModGolf Podcast Thank you so much for joining us on the ModGolf podcast today. Your insights, as always, are infectious and enlightening. And I thank you for spending the time with us today. 52:28.50 Renate Thank you. Thank you listeners for listening to Colin's ModGolf Podcast.