00:00.09 The ModGolf Podcast Welcome to the ModGolf podcast. We speak with the entrepreneurs, the innovators, the disruptors, and the influencers who are shaping the future of golf. I am your host, Colin Weston, and I am excited to be back. It is the first episode of our season 19. Jeez, hard to believe that we're Almost 300 episodes in after launching nine years ago, but the stories keep coming. And today we have another fabulous story of innovation and business, founding a company, and even more so elevating a company. 00:36.89 The ModGolf Podcast And that is with Levelwear. And I am joined with Hyman Ngo, who is the co-founder and senior vice president of product and marketing for the athletic wear brand Levelwear. And Can't see me right now, but I'm actually proudly wearing a level wear shirt. I got to say, I think it looks pretty darn good in this shirt. both on and off the golf course. So we're going to talk about that and so much more today on the ModGolf podcast. So first, I got to make an introduction. Hyman, welcome to the show. 01:04.98 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Thank you. Thank you. And congratulations on the nine years. That's quite an accomplishment. 01:09.56 The ModGolf Podcast I appreciate that. I definitely appreciate that. Well, we've been going for nine years, not quite as long as Levelwear has been going. I like to think you're one of those you're an overnight sensation, about 20, 25 years in the in the making, if not longer. 01:23.77 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear It's a long night. 01:25.56 The ModGolf Podcast One long night indeed. So i my understanding is that you and your family, your brothers, you did not launch Levelwear back in 1987. 01:36.69 The ModGolf Podcast You did acquire it and then reimagined that. We're going to get into that story. But before we get into that, I always love to ask this ice maker question because you and I, we've talked a couple times, but I really don't know you personally quite yet. 01:48.13 The ModGolf Podcast Hyman. So I always love this question to get to know our guest and that is your connection to golf. I don't know if you play golf. I don't know if you're a scratch golfer, if you don't play at all. I always love this story. What is the first golf experience you've ever had in your life? When was that? And who was that person, that power of invitation that made that happen for you, that introduced you to golf? 02:13.19 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Wow. That's a curveball right out. We didn't prepare for this one. 02:17.24 The ModGolf Podcast No, we didn't. There we go. That's what we do here. 02:19.96 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Let's see. I started playing golf maybe 25 years ago and just because I'm in the golf business does not mean I'm a good golfer. I enjoy the game a lot. 02:31.81 The ModGolf Podcast Me too. Same. I can relate to that. 02:35.57 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And, relatively speaking, I'm a terrible golfer, but I do love the game. I do play. I don't get out as much as I would like. I probably get maybe 10 to 20 rounds a year, which is not that much. 02:46.50 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah. 02:47.32 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But, but I enjoy it. Yeah, it was my college friend Martin who actually got me onto the game and he actually taught me gave me my first lesson and we're talking, this is 25 years ago now. 03:09.21 The ModGolf Podcast All right. 03:12.54 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear I'm not much better now than I was back then. Yeah, there really isn't that much that story. I used to get so intimidated getting on the golf course, that first drive, everyone's watching you, 03:24.28 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 03:27.86 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But it's what I do love about the game, though, is it's such a metaphor on life. You play the ball where it lies. Everything about it, I like to use this phrase. It's one of those sports where it's not about how much you want it. 03:48.77 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear In a lot of other sports, they say, well, whoever's going to win is who wants it more. Well, golf is not like that at all. The more you want it, the harder you try, the worse you seem to do. It's like you've got to calm your headspace, calm your mind. 04:00.93 The ModGolf Podcast Uh-huh. 04:05.37 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear It's such a good metaphor in life, and that's why I do enjoy that i do i enjoy the game. I enjoy this peace and serenity about it. 04:16.81 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for, but that that's my answer. 04:19.61 The ModGolf Podcast I love that response. No, that is great. And that's one thing that I talk about a lot because I am a struggling mid handicapper and sometimes I play well, sometimes not, but I'm not focused on the result. 04:30.37 The ModGolf Podcast And this ties in very nicely to the Levelwear apparel line because, it's really about how you look on the course, how you feel. And fashion has a part in that, not only the aesthetic, but also the performance of that. And I have to say when I'm wearing the shirt and the pants that I have, and hopefully I'll have more in the future, not hopefully, I know I will have more Levelwear on my body because I just feel good and it just gives me a certain confidence. And hey, I look pretty darn good in this stuff. And the I won't name some other brands, but the other brands, it's like, yeah it just kind of hangs off me. 05:06.90 The ModGolf Podcast And I don't have that confidence and I just don't feel great. But yeah, when i look in the mirror wearing the Levelwear stuff, I feel pretty good. So no matter if I shoot 79 or 99 or anything in between, I still feel good wearing that. 05:22.94 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Well, it takes quite a bit of work for that to happen from our our designers to our technical team like they they spend a lot of time fitting the garments like it has to fit right and so like we've got really a team of of six people who that's all they do is they fit it on mannequins, fit on models to make sure that the right cut the right fit, the right patterns are made so that it just drapes well and it looks good on you. 05:55.31 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear So kudos to the team. I can't take any credit for that personally, but I think they they've they've all done a good job from the designers to the product team to the technical team and then all the way down to the factories who produce the goods. 06:08.74 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear So I would give them credit. 06:09.62 The ModGolf Podcast Nice. There we go. Well, I like to think I got to keep going to the gym and keeping my fitness up because I hope to be your first 61-year-old mid-handicap model one day. That's the side hustle that I'm working towards. So we'll see how that works out for me. I won't give up my day job right now, but that's my aspiration. Okay. So I want to get us back in the way back machine here, about 20, 25 years. As I mentioned at the top of the show, you did not launch Levelwear, which I believe was back in about 1987, but you were associated with Levelwear. And then about 20 years ago, ah you and your family acquired Levelwear and reimagined that. So why don't we go back and talk about that inflection point of that story of that back about 20, 25 years ago. 07:02.74 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear So 1987, you mentioned that that that that was actually the year the parent company was founded. So nothing to do with Levelwear actually was founded in 1996. 07:08.22 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 07:11.22 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear That was the year Levelwear was founded. 07:11.61 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. Right. 07:13.59 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear It was a gentleman named Dave Garrett, who we were doing business with at the time. So it was 2004. We struck a deal with them to take over. So prior to that, we were a contract embellisher of garments. We had an embroidery facility, and that's what we were doing for Levelwear prior to the acquisition. 07:42.00 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 07:42.33 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And at that time, we had a fairly big corporate business. We were doing a lot of beer merchandise that we were selling to the likes of Molson Brewery. Just a lot of private label business that we were producing for people. We were contract manufacturing. It was a pretty good sized business. And that's how we came about Levelwear. 08:04.82 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And so after the acquisition in 2004, took it over. And it's an interesting journey from a manufacturer to being a branded operator. 08:18.71 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And as a manufacturer, you just don't realize how different that business is. I thought, well, I could produce a million units in and get it done. What I didn't realize was, well, now you got to produce an actual line. You have to have designers. you got to have a catalog. you got to market. you got to do all those things that we never had to do as a manufacturer. And that took us took us a while to figure out what But we eventually did, and we're still learning as we go. Yeah, and that's how it worked. 08:57.09 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And it was small. And I guess what's interesting is at the time, Levelwear was a very small part of our business. We had a much bigger business selling to all these other things. But fast forward to today, 25 years or 20 plus years later. Wait, is it 12? twenty plus years later 2004, 20, yeah, 23 years, 22 years later, I guess. 09:19.95 The ModGolf Podcast There you go. Got the math right. 09:20.76 Hyman Ngo Yeah, that's the math. All the other business has completely evaporated and all that's left is Levelwear. But we were able to 10x that business or so, I would even say, 09:33.43 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear You're making me do math now. Anyway, we've gotten to the point where it's the only business that's left. And I'm happy to do that because that's what I've always wanted to do. I didn't really want to stay as a manufacturer. I wanted to go and build something bigger than just selling other stuff. 10:00.47 The ModGolf Podcast Got it. Got it. Okay. My next question is what's 148 divided by three? No more math questions. Okay. No more math questions. I'll retract that one. 10:08.25 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Ugh. 10:08.44 The ModGolf Podcast But my next question is, I'm very interested to hear. So 22 years ago, so 2004, as you mentioned that with Levelwear, I'm curious to hear what the apparel or product market offerings were at that time. 10:24.33 The ModGolf Podcast what the target audience was. I believe it wasn't golf focused, even though you have other offerings than golf, but golf is such a primary piece of, of your apparel line now. 10:35.34 The ModGolf Podcast So tell us about that. How did that evolve and how did you pivot or double down and realize that golf was where we need to focus on and what were the offerings back in 2004? 10:46.82 The ModGolf Podcast I'm really curious to hear about the evolution and the decisions made to arrive to where you are now, these steps that were put in place. 10:52.95 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah, back 2004, the line itself was much smaller. today we have 300 styles that we offer in the line. I think at that time, maybe it was 20, 30 styles. It was a small catalog and it was predominantly a lot of layering and outerwear pieces. And we were selling predominantly to golf courses Canada. We did have a few American reps who were selling. So we had a rep in you know Michigan, a rep in Ohio. There's a few, but it was small. We were a very niche line. to be honest the product was i'm not too proud of it at the time but we had to start somewhere. 11:55.83 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear At that time, it was barely maybe between one and $2 million dollars total of the business. So it was small. At that size, it was tough to really sustain development, sustain a level of production. You don't have the quantities that you need. like a lot of those things, you really need to have a threshold to be able to operate a branded line like Levelwear. 12:21.30 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But it took us a while to get there, and we're I'm happy to say we're well on our way right now. 12:29.91 The ModGolf Podcast Interesting. So I'm curious to expand on what you just said there, Hyman. So what was on the table when you started? What pieces did you then enhance or do more of because they were already good in place? What things did you reduce? 12:45.24 The ModGolf Podcast I'm thinking even as far as your design quality and your philosophy behind that. What things did you eliminate and what things did you then add? So this whole idea of enhance, reduce, eliminate and add. So over time, how were you trimming like a tree? How did you prune it and also help it grow? 13:07.70 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear I think from the beginning, the one thing that we've always had good expertise is we're a good operator. We can produce well, we have good systems in place. We can certainly produce a good product. We can produce, we can decorate, we can embroider, we can do all those things that the market needed for us to do. 13:33.30 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But we what we weren't really great at was we weren't great at selling, we weren't great at marketing. And so that's probably par for the course for a manufacturer. You're good at manufacturing, not so good at marketing. And so that skill set was something that we had to develop internally. And it was difficult. The first few years, it was struggle to grow. 14:04.54 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear I mentioned this earlier to you on the pre-show that a lot of our Canadian customers, they wouldn't really buy into the product. And then we started to break into the U.S. market. In the U.S. market, we were a relative nobody. So it was it was a fresh start. There wasn't any baggage of the previous owner. And so going into the PGA Show, we were able to showcase some of the products, some of the innovations, some of the new treatments that we were doing. And it started to really get going. 14:39.42 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear We hired some good salespeople. We hired a great sales manager and we were able to break into a lot of really prestigious golf courses. So places like Oakmont, Chinookock, Pebble Beach, places that you would assume as like the U.S. Open Circuit places. 14:57.50 The ModGolf Podcast Yes, yes. 14:58.32 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And it took us breaking into those courses to then come back into Canada and say, hey, if we're good enough to get into Pebble Beach, we should be good enough to get into a lot of the best courses in Canada. And then it slowly started to sink in. And that's a commentary on Canadian psyche in general that you know we look down to the US for our inspiration. Like if we can make it there, can make it here too. Yeah. 15:37.62 The ModGolf Podcast That's right. That's right. So my understanding now is your sales and marketing team over the years has done a fantastic job because and the product stands up to back it up. But you're in 85 of the top 100 golf clubs in the US and about the same in Canada. 15:51.52 The ModGolf Podcast So congratulations on that. And that's such a validator for Levelwear. That's amazing. That's really great. 15:56.82 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah, that's something that we're certainly very proud of. And I have to give credit to the salespeople. is very much a relationship business, right? 16:11.67 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 16:11.86 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear I think you've been in it for a little while. Like a lot of the buyers, a lot of the golf pros, these are all golf pros. I mean, they're essentially golf professionals. They teach golf. A lot of them don't really know how to run a retail. I mean, they do try to teach them and we're there to support them. ah And so the salespeople do a good job, make sure they don't they they put in the right product for their customers. 16:36.36 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And every year it seems to sell through and they keep coming back. And that's how we've been able to build it slowly over the 22 years. 16:45.78 The ModGolf Podcast Love this. Love this. Okay. Since we are on an audio podcast, we're waving our hands in the air here. Of course, I do want to mention to our listeners that you and I will be jumping over for a video conversation for the ModGolf YouTube channel and we'll be able to, well, you can see the beautiful shirt I'm wearing right now and we're going to run through some other pieces of your and your apparel line. 17:06.68 The ModGolf Podcast But so people can understand if they haven't heard of Levelwear before, how would you describe your differentiator? Because there it's a very competitive market in the golf apparel space, both for men and women. Lots of players out there, small and large. So what how would you describe for people listening here, what's your differentiator? What stands out or makes Levelwear unique with your apparel? 17:34.84 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah. Interesting. There was a stat, which coming back from the PGA show, which you were at, I think one of the guys told me they were, over 400 exhibitors of soft goods. So I'm not even talking about balls and you know clubs. These are apparel vendors who try to sell into the space. 17:52.41 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 17:55.89 Hyman Ngo That's incredibly competitive. 17:59.96 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But just under that context, what differentiates us is, we produce and we know who we are. We know who we're not. Like we're a middle price point, we don't compete on the high end. There's a lot of other brands who compete there. We produce a good product at a very reasonable price in this space. And it's all performance driven. Yeah, it's a good looking in product, definitely on trend, performance based apparel. And we have a broad range of products, you know, starting with headwear all the way down to shirts, to layering, to bottoms. And so we have a full collection and we can service them really well. So one of the things that we do because we have an in-house decorating facility here 18:51.54 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear We produce all of this stuff in-house. We have great service. Our service model is probably one of the best out in this industry. And that's part of the reason why we succeed. And then all the way to t-shirts and hoodies and everything else in between. So a broad lineup in the golf space, we have a model that allows us to produce in small quantities, which is perfect for individual golf shops. I mean, they're only buying six pieces of a style. And that's what they need. That's and they need that to be able to service their own customers. 19:31.93 The ModGolf Podcast Understood. Understood. And I will say, just looking at some of the pictures, whether it's your PGA and LPGA pros that are your ambassadors, they all look good. It has that athletic cut, both for women and men. And I can even say for myself, I do my best to try to hit the gym and stay in as good a shape as I possibly can. And it definitely feels great on my body. It's not too tight. 19:58.47 The ModGolf Podcast You've taken a lot of effort and thought and care into that aspect of this. So I do want to pull the curtain back in a minute here to learn more about how your team innovates and how you decide whether it's colours or fit or fabric for the next year, and what inspires you. But before I do that, I wanted to ask about this. Because I've learned that there's something called the Levelwear Manifesto, which ties into your culture, your design philosophy, your ethos. So can you tell us a little bit about this, um this concept of who's with you, the manifesto and winning as one? This is fascinating. So I'd love to hear your take and what it means to the company and the culture. 20:42.26 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah, thanks for bringing this up. This is this is absolutely one of the things. This is the why behind the who, right? So this is why we do the things that we do. 20:49.00 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. 20:51.45 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear This is what we stand behind and celebrate. So rather than focusing on the athlete, as a sports apparel brand, we know the biggest players out there, they focus on the athletes, they focus on their determination, which which is all true. 100% of that is true. 21:17.69 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But we chose we're choosing to celebrate you know all the people around them, right? It takes a village for anyone to succeed, whether you're a business, whether you're an athlete, whether you're a team. 21:30.94 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear It takes everyone around you, the coaches, even the parents, the trainers. If you're a golfer, your caddy, your coach, just every everyone that helps you. We need to credit all of those people. And that's the people we want to celebrate. And then you take it into a a different level. If you look at it from an organization perspective, it's not just the people in sales. They get all the biggest credit because I landed this account, I landed that account. well But it takes an entire village to be able to produce a product line, to be able to service that customer, to be able to market everything. All of those things, it takes an entire community. And I like the story around the community. And we need to all be proud to be successful. 22:23.79 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear contributing to anyone's success. So whether you're contributing to an athlete or a sports team or what have you, we celebrate all of those things around the athlete, around the organization that make it tick. So that's really what this is about. 22:41.43 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. And with this, it's not just words. You are walking this walk and I understand one of the ways that you're physically manifesting your who's with you manifesto is with an innovation you and the team have created over the last couple of years called the Caddy Lounge that you have at PGA and LPGA events. So tell us about the Caddy Lounge. 23:04.41 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yes, yes. The Caddy Lounge. So the Caddy Lounge is something that we've been doing, probably five years now. 23:09.08 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. 23:09.40 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And so this stemmed from back when we first started, we had identified there was an opportunity. And at that time, caddies were looked at almost second class, right? So all the players and their families, they get access to the clubhouse. They get access to locker rooms, right? They get access to the food in the clubhouse. And the caddies, you get a little tent, and that's where that's where you stay. You're not allowed going in. 23:38.62 The ModGolf Podcast They're the help. They're the help. Yeah. 23:40.65 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear They're the help, right? 23:41.11 The ModGolf Podcast Even though they're not. Yes. 23:42.89 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Right. And I think at the time, there there was a bit of animosity. The caddy groups were actually suing the PGA Tour. I don't know too much about the what's happened with that. So we approached it as well. Let's look at this from the angle of Let's give these guys something. So we did it with a couple of events. we went to the tournament organizers and said, let's create this kind of experience for them where we build a structure. 24:17.46 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And so imagine golf courses, The clubhouse is out of the question. We have no access to that. So we built a tent. We put in some cool stuff. We put in couches. We put in TVs. We put a barber station in. We hire a barber so that we have a we have a a a registered ah massage therapist come in. And so the caddies are standing, walking all day with a heavy bag. And they get it's not it's not an easy job but they do it. And so they come in and they get pampered, at least in the one week that they do. 24:55.72 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear So all of those things they get, there's a coffee station, we have ping pong tables. Like, it's just a cool place. We had video games for them. So it's just one of those places that it's just a great place for them to congregate, a great place for them to hang out. 25:12.34 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And then over time, A lot of players started to hang out there too because they want to spend some time with their caddies and they thought maybe the clubhouse was a bit too stuffy. They don't really want to hang out there. So they just come in there and just lounge around at the Caddy Lounge. And so there's a lot of great stories we've gotten a lot of benefit from it, even though this as a marketing activation process, 25:34.10 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear This is not seen by anyone in public. But for us, just to be able to be credible with the people, not necessarily the top guys, not necessarily the players themselves, once we establish credibility within the caddy community, It's a small community and we give them and we gift them a lot of stuff. We would give a lot of Levelwear pieces and they would just come in, pick up some stuff. And they're very, very appreciative. 25:59.37 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear This is the first time they've ever been treated this way. So this year we'll be at 12 15 events. Something like that, which is a big investment for us. We do this not to try to get. There is no branding. work There is no consumer-facing element here. This is really all about the caddies. And I think they see it and they appreciate it. And again, this is our way to honour what they contribute to the sport. Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Hyman Ngo There is no return for us to do this right outside of getting some notoriety within the industry, getting some caddies to root for us. It's one of those things that they're a bit of the underdog. We kind of see ourselves as an underdog brand. 26:57.30 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And so I think this Caddy Lounge thing, we'll continue to do it. We'll continue to invest. And we just like what it does. We like that it talks to the who's with you. So it's just one of those things that we we'll continue to do. And we love doing it. 27:14.42 The ModGolf Podcast I love this. I did see it at the RBC Canadian Open when was there last year. And then in Vancouver, where I am at the LPGA. Canadian Women's Open. i had to walk right past or through the Caddy lounge every single day. and it's like, what is going on here? And even the caddies just seeing them relaxing there and enjoying themselves. 27:32.06 The ModGolf Podcast They really appreciated that. So can you elaborate on on some a couple of stories that you have from caddies that have just been over the top appreciative that didn't even know this was happening until they they stumbled upon it the first time? 27:44.94 The ModGolf Podcast I'm sure the feedback has been so positive. 27:47.67 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Well, I've heard stories, so I don't want to tell hearsay stories, but every time I would go into there, and I don't go often and I don't travel with the team like ah like Ryan does, like he'd be a better person to ask these questions. 28:03.64 The ModGolf Podcast Fair. 28:04.07 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But whenever whenever I'd go to the RBC, and I would spend a bit of time in the caddy lounge, the amount of of gratitude that the caddies would would come by shake my hand and say, I really appreciate you guys doing this. 28:16.71 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And it just feels good to hear it, right? these things aren't unnoticed by the caddies because they don't get any of this other treatment. And so it's almost to a point where the caddies would ask, hey, is Levelwear going to be is there going to be Caddy Lounge at this event? 28:32.78 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear When they're sitting with their player and planning out their year, right? Because they plan out what events they going to they're going to play at. The caddies would be like, oh yeah, let's play here. I think they have a Caddy Lounge at this event and I would be treated well. We have ah clubs there so they can go play around if they want to on their off day. 28:56.67 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear We treat them over the top and they appreciate it. They don't often get those like the players. The players are given everything. But the caddies get nothing. This is a chance for the caddies to feel like their bosses every now and then. 29:13.88 The ModGolf Podcast Absolutely. Well, I have a feeling each and every one of those caddies has a thousand awesome, fun stories to share. And who knows, at the RBC Canadian Open, maybe you should set up a podcast booth with, I don't know, someone that maybe can host that and maybe sit down with some caddies? 29:27.29 Hyman Ngo You know someone? 29:32.12 The ModGolf Podcast I know someone that knows someone that has a podcast that maybe could do some stuff that would be fun because I'm sure they'd be willing to share all the all these stories, probably without naming any names, mind you. 29:34.81 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Well, that's good. That's good. 29:43.55 The ModGolf Podcast I'm sure to protect the innocent and the guilty, but I'm sure there's some awesome, crazy stories. 29:48.31 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear I've heard great stories, but none that I'm willing to share on to the public. 29:55.00 The ModGolf Podcast Fair enough. Well, I'm but i'm not going to have you put yourself out of the line for there for that one, Hyman. 30:02.64 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear right. 30:03.00 The ModGolf Podcast Okay, so another aspect, another pillar with Levelwear is your sustainability platform, your initiatives, your environmental stewardship, your sustainable products and packaging. 30:16.12 The ModGolf Podcast So everyone now is for years now is making this a pillar of what they're doing. But what I understand and seeing this is something that is deeply ingrained with within your why, within your philosophy and how you do business. 30:29.56 The ModGolf Podcast So can you tell us about this as far as the materials, and the life cycle of the materials and your cradle to grave and everything. 30:39.86 The ModGolf Podcast We'll talk about that as far as your environmental stewardship and your sustainability platform with Levelwear. 30:45.91 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah, this started probably about five years ago. I know this movement has been much longer than that. 30:51.70 The ModGolf Podcast Mm-hmm. 30:54.29 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear I think for Levelwear though, had made a conscious effort to say, every time we develop something, let's try to use materials that are either recycled or organic or something that is better for the environment. 31:08.94 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And sustainability is much more than just using recycled materials. It's about let's build products at last. Rather than building something that people replace every year. We joke around some of our products are literally bulletproof. I have things in my closet that's been that's 10 years old and I still wear them regularly. 31:38.74 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And so that that goes a long way too. So if you buy a shirt from me, regardless of styling or if it lasts and it stays it stays good looking for a long time, well, you'll probably keep in your closet for a long time. You're not going to go out and buy more. So it's about consciously trying to get people to buy better things and not have to replace it all the time. We've had other initiatives where we're trying to reduce our single plastic. 32:14.81 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear If you ship a garment, it's got to be poly bag individually because for durability so it doesn't get dirty, doesn't get wrinkled, all those things. But we're looking at ways to innovate, to try to do it where it's because it's a big environmental issue. So that's another thing that we're also trying to do. 32:34.74 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Our water treatments, things like that. So it goes beyond just the products themselves. It's the way we think about how we're doing things. And so that is a commitment that us as an organization, us as a leadership team, we've tried to push all the way down into the company. Now, there's still a long way to go and there's a lot of things we can do, but we have to manage against the business needs, profitability, all those things. But it is something that's top of mind for everyone in this organization. 33:10.07 The ModGolf Podcast Right. And it seems like, as you mentioned, not just looking at the materials and the packaging, you're taking a much deeper dive into the whole supply chain also is looking at rather than, what is our carbon footprint rather than flying? Are we able to using rail or boats for shipping? Is that reducing your carbon foot footprint. So my question is, do you have anybody in-house that is their responsibility to start to source even your supply chain and looking from origin of all these things, whether it's cotton as compared to organic cotton? I know there's certain issues with that and other materials and even the factories that are making your garments there. So are you guys looking at this and are they being audited? So, so yeah, what's your overarching look in there? and I'm sure you can't do everything at once, but it's one step at a time. So how are you seeing the whole big picture here as you move forward? 34:06.14 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah, as we because it has come down from the top, right? So we do have a sourcing team. We have a sourcing office and in China. We have a sourcing team in Hong Kong. And so that is a priority of ours, right? And they'll look at things and we'll say even from the design team, they'll try to use sustainable materials. 34:31.70 The ModGolf Podcast Right. 34:32.54 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And now we're starting to get into, I was just looking at our next line, and they're using a seaweed material. So now we're using really innovative things, not not just to tell that story, but there's a sustainable angle to it. And so they're consciously looking for ways to use more sustainable products. 35:07.16 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And that's such just part of the way we're looking at things. So it's not just, hey, create the best product. Let's try to think about how that affects the world that we live in. So that is conscious in the development cycle. 35:27.54 The ModGolf Podcast Right, right. I just read a book. I read the biography of Patagonia founder Yvon Chouinard called Dirtbag Billionaire. 35:35.17 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Hmm. 35:36.93 The ModGolf Podcast And one of the interesting things I found there is them struggling so hard to keep becoming more and more and more environmentally sustainable and reducing or eliminating their carbon footprint. 35:48.86 The ModGolf Podcast But they had to reconcile or balance that with they found some of the products that were organic or were more environmentally friendly didn't perform. And so in that case, that affected the brand negatively because they're getting all these products people are sending back because they're deteriorating. So are you finding that also as far as the striking that balance? 36:07.49 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear that's interesting. 36:10.19 The ModGolf Podcast You touched on this a little bit already, but to expand on that, because you are so performance-based with your apparel that it has to perform. And like you said, you've got pieces in your closet for a decade that you're still wearing that still are awesome, look great, and still perform fantastic. 36:26.46 The ModGolf Podcast So yeah, I know that's not necessarily your job or responsibility, but I'm curious to hear how do you balance that as an organization? Because you don't want to move too far forward and have using something that's really environmentally friendly, but it performs so poorly that someone's going to return it or throw in the garbage. 36:42.74 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah, there's that dichotomy, right? And it's almost contradicting. There's a contradicting ethos here because it's sustainability, durability, if I create something that never grows old or never breaks down, well, why would somebody buy something new from me, right? 37:03.70 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. 37:05.04 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear So there's that bit of a contradiction. The more we consume, the worse it is for the environment. And that's just the way things are. And so how do we encourage less consumption and yet still be a viable, profitable business. 37:27.80 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. yes 37:28.54 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And that's a fine line to balance. If we can wean ourselves as a society from this kind of inexpensive, cheap stuff that you buy and throw away in a couple of weeks and replace them with companies who have the same philosophy of making things durable, making things good, then that would cut back on waste, which is a big part of it. And so if we continue to create product that's good, hopefully people will stop buying cheap stuff just because it's cheap and they would buy for companies like us. And we're certainly not the only ones who make durable products. 38:22.78 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear So if we can replace those fast fashion type of companies and people buy from from responsible companies who promote durability, promote sustainability, and promote less waste, then I think overall you can still satisfy both needs. That's my view anyway. 38:48.01 The ModGolf Podcast I'm sure that's a delicate dance that you're doing within a corporate structure there because also with Patagonia, I remember this ad from about 15, 20 years ago that they had on billboards in New York and it was one of their jackets and it just said, "do not buy this jacket!" Which of course people ended up buying more jackets, but ultimately it was, and they were sincere about this, at least Yvon Chouinard was that, buy less, but buy better. 39:17.44 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear right. Buy less, but buy better. All right, exactly. 39:20.18 The ModGolf Podcast And you're instilling and embracing that. 39:22.30 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And then the other step we go is, buy less, buy better does not mean it's expensive either. It doesn't have to be expensive. 39:30.72 The ModGolf Podcast Yeah. 39:31.90 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear It has to be reasonable. it has to be a good price that we people who are working or making it can still make a reasonable wage. And that it goes beyond sustainability. It's actually about corporate responsibility. we're a steward of the world and that includes the people who are making it. It's got to be responsible. It's got to be right. So just doing the right thing. 40:04.63 The ModGolf Podcast Absolutely. Absolutely. 40:06.46 The ModGolf Podcast Okay. i want to talk about the power of partnerships here. I've understood that Levelwear has secured licensing deals with Major League Baseball, the NHL, the NBA, and the PGA Tour. And I heard that in another conversation you had elsewhere you mentioned licensing as a bridge to build brand legitimacy. So I'm curious to learn, how do you manage to balance between being a co-branded partner for these massive leagues and building a standalone equity of the Levelwear name? 40:34.71 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Well, part of as an organization, as a brand, we didn't want to get pigeonholed as a a pure play golf company. 40:43.22 The ModGolf Podcast Right, right. 40:43.86 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And so we see ourselves as a sports apparel brand. And so by aligning, now the we can't ignore our roots in golf because that's where we've come from and we continue to invest in golf, but we want it to break out and we want it to. And so aligning ourselves with these athletic, these professional leagues is a good way to do it, right? So I can produce a ah you know Vancouver Canucks hat, I can produce a t-shirt, I can produce a polo, but it really draws from the same line. 41:17.24 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Right. So the same products go across multiple, multiple business units. But I do find the association really elevates us from our competitors. And it also gives us legitimacy within the consumer base that if our product is good enough for the Toronto Maple Leafs or Toronto Raptors on it, then it's got to be good enough for the other things. And that's our strategy. And that's a growing part of our business. We're making some headway into to these licensed sports space. 42:05.11 The ModGolf Podcast Got it. Got it. I did touch on earlier, just pull the curtain back on how yourself and even more so the design team looks into the future or the trends are or what you're thinking about already for 2027 and beyond. 42:20.38 The ModGolf Podcast So can you, i know you're not part of the ah product design team or maybe you are. I don't know. 42:27.45 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear No, I am actually. That team ultimately reports into me. So we're actually right into we're into fall 27. We're about to start spring 28. So I mean, 27 is pretty much baked. 42:44.28 The ModGolf Podcast There we go. 42:46.65 The ModGolf Podcast So you're the you're the perfect person to ask this question. So I'm curious to understand where you derive inspiration from. do you and the team spread it all over the world to kind of see different. I'm just curious to understand where you derive and inspiration and then how you distill down a thousand ideas into 15 or 20 or 40 designs for the next year. So can you tell us about that over, let's say the course of a year of how you arrive at from ideas to envision to having your, your next 2027 spring line. 43:27.00 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah. Well, firstly we have a very talented team of product managers. We have a VP of products who's super strong. We have three designers and they go on shopping trips all over. They participate at shows. They go look at all the all the trends, specifically from the golf side, we don't stick within the golf space. 43:53.34 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Like we look at action sports. We look at a lot of more trendier brands for inspiration. We'll create sub collections within the Levelwear line. So right now we have a Lux collection, which is an oversized trendy. So if you look at our DNA on the golf side, this is very, very different. 44:23.13 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear look and feel wise, it's very different from what you would think of as a traditional. So this isn't the stuff that you see on tour, but this is very much urban, very street. And so we always look to do things like this. just because it keeps us fresh. the one thing about brands is you don't want to get stale, you're doing the same thing over and over again. and so you always want to try different things. 44:55.13 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear And so we look through the urban market, we look to the streetwear market, and this is where the designers really have a lot of fun. We look at the athleisure market, we go into all of these areas, and we're producing things that are non-traditional golf stuff. We've got this you know oversized shirt jacket that's coming out. And you would never golf in it, so it's not a golf piece. 45:22.42 The ModGolf Podcast Right, right. 45:23.58 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear But we find there's a divergence too, because you know as golf evolves, it's becoming a cooler sport now. It's not like your old guy with the knickers anymore, which is what it was. 45:37.53 The ModGolf Podcast Yes. Yes. 45:38.72 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear if you go back 20 years ago, if you looked at what Tiger wore in 1995. He's got this big shirt with the sleeves coming down to his elbows. And that's not what golf is today, right? 45:49.11 The ModGolf Podcast yes 45:51.92 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear You got a lot of fashionable people. You got people wearing joggers on the course. It actually is following the trends. And so that's how we're able to get and we actually sell quite a bit of this within the golf space too. And so we've got things that you would never think of as a golf item. If you ever go through a line, you'll start to see things that, well, this is not a golf piece. But then this will cross over into our license space and into our corporate space too. So we just let our designers, give them a a lot of leash to come up with cool, different things. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But as a strategy, we decide this as a company. 46:42.24 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear We say, listen, we'll let the designers have a bit of fun. We'll let them do some things that maybe you would never see a golf a golf brand do. And that's part of our appeal. We do these pre-lines every year with some of our biggest customers, and they just can't wait to see this, this kind of cool stuff. Right? They love the golf stuff too. But when we start getting into some of these kind of fringe items, streetwear items, that's when they really get excited. And that's where it validates what we're doing too. 47:13.61 The ModGolf Podcast Well, sounds like you give your designers a lot of leash to innovate, to experiment, and andto have some fun, which is baked into your culture. I love this. Well, I can keep going here for another hour, but you know what? 47:25.73 The ModGolf Podcast I'm got to show some restraint. I'm hold off here because as I mentioned earlier, you and I are going to jump over to a video conversation for the ModGolf YouTube channel. 47:35.29 The ModGolf Podcast And I know you've got some other collaborations. You've got one with Hurley I want to talk about. We can pull that up on screen also, which I find is really, so I got to hold off on that. We're going to talk about some of your brand ambassadors with your LPGA and PGA players and a whole bunch of other good stuff. 47:49.69 The ModGolf Podcast And also people can see me modelling my beautiful Levelwear shirt here. 47:56.09 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Yeah. Should I go fix my hair? Is that is that what we should do now? 47:59.29 The ModGolf Podcast you have a great head of hair. You look fantastic. I think maybe I'm the one that needs a a little bit of help here. So, hey, as we finish up here, Hyman, why don't you let everyone know where they can learn more about Levelwear, where they can connect with the brand, obviously the website, and also on social media? 48:16.38 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Well, yeah, levelware.com where you can you can see everything in our line, including all the licensed sports stuff. And we have a big, big collection of licensed sports stuff. So if you're a fan of any sport, and NHL, MLB, NBA, you can you can get the stuff. Follow us on Instagram, at Levelwear. We've got TikTok. So all of the regular social channels, we're fairly active now. You can see some of the cool stuff that we're doing. 48:49.02 The ModGolf Podcast Absolutely. And we're going to show some of that cool stuff on the ModGolf YouTube channel in just a few minutes here. So as I always do, as Hyman mentioned, I will include in the show notes all the links that he told us about. Make it nice and easy for all you listeners to find out more about Levelwear. Levelwear, all one word, of course. 49:34.22 The ModGolf Podcast So with that, Hyman Ngo, thanks so much for joining us on the ModGolf podcast today and sharing the Levelwear story, where you've been, where you are, and where you're going. I really appreciate your time and for you telling us the story today. 49:51.35 Hyman Ngo Co-Founder of Levelwear Well, thank you. Thank you for having me, Colin. i had a lot of fun and I'm happy to do this anytime.