00:00:05 David Egts: So, kind of what what's going on? Gunnar Hellekson: Dave, David Egts: What's going on? Been a Gunnar Hellekson: uh, it's been a minute. David Egts: while. Gunnar Hellekson: I've been a little busy. Uh, first it was a hugely successful Red Hat Summit. Uh, David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: and then, uh, I got, uh, I got pulled pulled into, uh, some big new projects at work. So, I've been a little distracted. David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, and u I would very much like a like a nap now. Want to take a nap is what I'm David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Gunnar Hellekson: feeling. David Egts: hopefully this episode won't put you to sleep. Uh so yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: No way. No way. It's not possible. It's not David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: possible. David Egts: Yeah. No, it uh things are great here. Beautiful sunny day in Ohio and uh they're getting a little bit of a heat wave, but uh I'll take it. 00:00:56 Gunnar Hellekson: Nice. David Egts: Better than snow. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Nice. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, well, what's new with you? What's uh what's what's going on David Egts: Yeah. Just uh just uh selling the family house and you know closing that all out Gunnar Hellekson: otherwise? David Egts: and uh uh closing one chapter and figuring out what the next chapter is going to be. So uh Gunnar Hellekson: That's good. David Egts: yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's good. Um, I've been taking I have very little spare time uh at the moment, but I but I did mostly as an act of self-preservation. Uh, I started really investing in uh uh I've been using AI for a while, right? Uh but finally finally broke the seal on uh on David Egts: No. Gunnar Hellekson: uh getting up for real agent running. And so I finally chose my horse uh Hermes. David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: And uh man, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I'm here to recommend it. It's uh I discovered it because I had started basically writing it on my own. 00:01:55 Gunnar Hellekson: In other words, like I knew I needed to solve this problem and then I found I needed I was like I need this one component and let me go see the oh here it is. There's this component already. Somebody already wrote this. Okay, great. Thanks open source. And uh then the component wasn't working quite right. And then I saw the documentation made reference to Hermy. I was like what is this Hermy thing? Oh, they're done. They already did everything that I wanted to do. and somebody else already wrote it. I was like, great. So, uh, anyway, I've been riding that horse for a while and, um, man, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: it's extremely well organized. I will, uh, uh, I'll compare it to Hermes is very thoughtful, very kind of welldesigned right now. Um, and it's a kind of a contrast to the chaos of uh, OpenClaw, right? Um and uh so where openclaw is to Linux as Hermes is to Mac OS is what I 00:02:43 David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: would say like they David Egts: Okay. Okay. A little more opinionated. Little little more fit and Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: finish. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. That's right. Um but like made it very easy to get started. Um I'm really I'm I'm enjoying it. It's great. David Egts: So, did you go from like Clyde Code and all that to Open Claw to Hermes or did you go right to Hermes and jumped over Open Gunnar Hellekson: I went from Yeah, I went from Yeah, I went from Claude and then a brief flirtation with cursor and then uh most of David Egts: Claw? Gunnar Hellekson: the stuff I need to do is like stuff that gets scheduled, you know, David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: and so I needed like something with like a robust scheduling harness and and stuff like that. And uh and turns out Hermes already knows how to do all that stuff. Um and it knows how to separate my work stuff from my personal stuff. And um yeah, it's uh I'm extremely pleased. 00:03:42 Gunnar Hellekson: So yeah. David Egts: That's great. Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And it works on my phone. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Got tail scale working on my phone. All that stuff. David Egts: Right. So, Gunnar Hellekson: So cool. David Egts: what what and it's I'm sure it's plumbed into to-d doist. Gunnar Hellekson: Natural. David Egts: Um that's first thing. Gunnar Hellekson: Well, it's only that's the first thing. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: So, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: what what problems are you solving with it that you you struggled with in the past? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. So um well I'll give you an example. Uh now uh prep meeting prep tasks are automatically created for all my meetings. Um, so now I open up to-doist in calendar mode and right before every meeting that I've got, there is a task for prep takes 15 minutes and it's full of an extremely rich history of everything I've spoken about on the topic before it kind of intuitits some task topics that need to get brought up etc etc. Um after the meeting it will uh at at the very least it will remind me to go do kind of post meeting you know task creation and notes and stuff like that. 00:04:49 Gunnar Hellekson: But if it has the transcript it will go create waiting items for me so that I can keep track of what promises were made in the meeting. It tells me what my tasks were. um yada yada yada. Uh it will review uh emails, slacks, tasks that have been uh postponed and then it will uh remind me like hey it's been 3 days like are you sure this thing is still due or like what do you want to do with this thing? Um it will make sure that my projects are organized. So, hey, you have a project here with no next action and it's been 3 days. Like, do you want to do you want to think about putting a next action in here? Um, so it keeps me organized, keeps me prepped, um, and, uh, if anything goes wrong or sideways, it'll notify me. Um, it's, uh, it already knows about all my projects and where everything is on Google. And so, I can ask it questions about, hey, what did we promise we were going to do about XYZ? 00:05:50 Gunnar Hellekson: And it will bobby boop pop it up. Um, I have it listening to I'll stop in a second. David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: I have it listening to a to-d doist. Um, so I can task I can if I have an idea for, David Egts: Perfect. Gunnar Hellekson: oh, I need to do some research on blah blah. Um, before I would open up claude and then ask it to go do the research and then have to remember to go back to that tab, right, and go look at the research that came back. Having it in to-d doist means, oh, I'll just open up a task, do this research. I can be even more wholesome in my requirement in the description and then tag it agent and then Hermes will pick it up and then go do the research for me or go do the task whatever and then put the results as a comment on the task. So now it's organized alongside all the other tasks. Beautiful. Um, David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: and uh, I'm getting close to my final form, which is taking advantage of the conbon in to-d doist and using that to track complex multi-step tasks. 00:06:48 Gunnar Hellekson: uh you know, so if it's a uh hey, go find uh uh go order these things from the grocery store and put them in the cart and then order them for pickup and then schedule and then make sure the pickup time is in my calendar as an example. Um that's like a several step process that it would have to go through, but I can I would be able to track all that in the through the conbon feature, right, of like inbox processing so on. Um, so anyway, I'm having a blast. It's really nice. It's really nice. It's been David Egts: So do you think like Google and Apple Gunnar Hellekson: great. David Egts: and all that will get to that point of like having this turnkey conversational environment that that people are sort of implement menting themselves in their own way. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Their Agentic OS is the popular term people are talking Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Um I think so my experience with this stuff so far having like tried to build this 00:07:43 David Egts: about Gunnar Hellekson: like myself for you know several months probably um everybody wants it but what they don't realize is that the hard part is actually getting a system that the tool can organize right if you have no system if you have no way of defining priorities if you have no way of like putting your work in buckets these things have a much harder time operating. So, because I'm so ruthless about my to-doist use and because I'm so ruthless about using parah, the para system to organize my projects and and areas and stuff like that, it makes it a lot easier to automate because I can say, hey, I have these rules for these kinds of projects. I have these rules for the areas. I have these rules for archives and resources. Um, you know, if I don't have a next action in a project, that's a problem and you should let me know. You need some kind of like basic infrastructure in your life in order to kind of get to the point where you can automate it. 00:08:48 David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: And you you just spent the last 50 years preparing for this moment. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. That's right. David Egts: And the future is finally here. Gunnar Hellekson: I'm feeling right. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And I'm feeling pretty smug about it. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Compared to all the people who put stuff on post-it notes and and or didn't write stuff down and Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. Yeah. David Egts: Ha. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: I told you so. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. I mean, if you want if you want automation, I mean, you know, Deming taught us this, right? Like, if you want automation, you have to have something to automate. Um, if it's an ad hoc process, David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: then you're never going to get the kind of return you want out of a out of an automated process. David Egts: Well, and that's the craftsmanship versus the the factory floor sort of thing. 00:09:31 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. And being able to Okay. Define the process. What is the process? And it a lot of people they can't define the Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. David Egts: process. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, so yeah, so I mean they may be able to give you tools that will help you automate things. You know, anybody can get a daily briefing, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: but um getting a daily briefing on all of my projects every morning, which has automatically harvested all of the email, all the Slack, and all the RSS feeds for relevant information about the project. That's super cool, right? Um, and that's only possible if you can define a project well enough to like put keywords on it David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: and and help the system understand what's important, David Egts: Yeah. So at what point like as I as I think about like how things are going to get more lumpy, Gunnar Hellekson: right? David Egts: right? Where it's like you you're using AI to generate more stuff and everything that means that you could either work less or you're creating more work for other people and and so there's like new 00:10:33 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: bottlenecks downstream. And so there are people that don't adopt this process that are just going to be overwhelmed. And so, how do you see it playing out that like all of a sudden you'll realize you'll you built this machine and it's like, Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: ah, I'm not needed anymore and it's just it just runs by itself and you check on it once a week and Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, David Egts: or or is it like, Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: "Holy crap, Gunner's giving me too much stuff to do and and I I can't handle it because he's so Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: productive. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, I got a couple thoughts about this. The first is is the the productivity is K-shaped, right? There are some people who are who are going to permanently benefit from this and there are some people who are going to permanently not David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: benefit from it. And that has to do with the like their abil the extent to which they can bring these tools in and help. 00:11:25 Gunnar Hellekson: That's I don't know how to escape that. Um, it's just like some people decided not to learn how to use a PC. Okay. David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, in terms of creating new work, it will increase the speed. It does increase the amount of work, but um, I'm working more than I was before. Not just because of these brand new projects, but because my capacity to grind through a problem has increased. you know, the larger the the larger the circle of light, the larger the circumference of darkness around it, right? Um, so it's a capacity building tool. David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: So I now have more capacity, which means like more stuff is now happening and I'm able to govern, orchestrate, keep track of more stuff. Um, and hopefully like other people have are also seeing the same results you by being able to use, you know, similar tools. But um it is not less work. It's not it's not unattended, right? Um I was just telling somebody earlier today like yes, I have all this automation, but I also spend a lot of time managing the automation and you know the metaphor of like it's like hiring an intern is exactly right. 00:12:43 Gunnar Hellekson: Like I spending I spend time on this in the same way that I would spend on a on an on an early David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: career staff member, right? Um because no no it's not supposed to work like this. David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: Supposed to work like this. No no no listen every time you make a document put it on redhead letterhead. David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: No matter what I say it has to go it has to follow the brand standards you know. David Egts: Mhm. Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: Um and the work the nature of the work changes. It becomes more governance and orchestration work than it is like actually doing the stuff. Um uh and a lot of and the theme of a lot of the work is getting more clear with yourself about what good looks like which when you're doing the work yourself is more of a discovery process and these tools actually require you to kind of get real clear very early about David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: what good is going to look like um because you have to be able to describe it. 00:13:29 David Egts: Yes. Cuz you have to articulate it. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Um so uh anyway all of which is to say um is it going to be K-shaped? Yes. Um are there new kind of impedance mismatches or bottlenecks? Yes, there are. Especially on collaboration actually is the hardest part. Um because working one-on-one with an AI is kind of an extremely personal David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: experience and you kind of move at your own speed and being able to inject other opinions in there has to be kind of a deliberate thing that you design for. Um because it's very simple for you to run an entire project from front to back all by yourself, right? Um and so being intentional about collaboration is a is and I'm finding David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: new uh new collaboration patterns are required um just because the speed is different, right? Um Google Docs for example, not not helpful uh really at all. David Egts: Mhm. Gunnar Hellekson: Um, it used to be like the gold standard for collaboration and now it's like no no Google Docs are 00:14:36 David Egts: Great. Gunnar Hellekson: slow, difficult to version track. You don't really know if you're working with the current version or you don't really know if you're current or not or if it's canonical or not because you're generating a lot more documents anywhere before. And so using things like Git is actually a much more natural motion um because now all documents become software which is a whole TED talk all by David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: itself. What that means? Yeah. David Egts: All right. Gunnar Hellekson: Super interesting. It's been super David Egts: Nice. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: fun. David Egts: Can't wait to learn more how how your journey goes. That's awesome. Yeah. So, we got a great show lined up. Gunnar Hellekson: All right. David Egts: Uh we're going to talk about uh some classics and some new stuff. So, uh basically I I would bucketize it into two things. Uh modern-day robot uprisings and modern-day Butlerian jihads. Gunnar Hellekson: I like this. I like it. It's It's heads and 00:15:32 David Egts: It's on brand. Yeah. Yeah. Something for everybody. Gunnar Hellekson: tails. David Egts: Uh what whatever side of the uh uh uh apocalypse you're on. Uh there's something for everybody in this episode. So, uh, to get to this, uh, you know, to be able to to get a copy of Hermes and, uh, uh, and all that, uh, where should we go Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Uh, yeah, David Egts: or? Gunnar Hellekson: you could go point your agents to dshow.org. That's D is and Dave G's and gunnershow David Egts: Okay. And cutting room floor, Gunnar Hellekson: show.org. David Egts: um, Kit Kat, it's marketing stunt. Uh they basically have a Faraday cage as uh their their wrapper for their Kit Kats and they want you to put your phone in it uh to like have some quiet time, right? Kind of nice, right? And uh you know it comes with it's con uh made of uh the packaging is uh conductive materials primarily copper with polyester layers. Um, but anyhow, um, and you know the whole give me a break, uh, you know, uh, theme of Kit Kats, right? 00:16:41 David Egts: Uh, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: so for you to unplug and be present in the moment. I'm hoping that they have like a KitKat hat. Uh, that's a Faraday cage, right? Or some pajamas that, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: you know, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: that would be a nice break. Gunnar Hellekson: Keep yourself insulated from all that 5G, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: all that Wi-Fi. David Egts: Yeah. And COVID, all that, right? Yeah. But, um, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: And in the meantime, while we wait for that, there's uh Homer radio uh do FM where um we tried to listen to it uh a little while ago. It didn't seem to work. Maybe it's back up, but um it's uh really awesome. A lot of reggaon and and dance music uh sung by Homer Simpson. It's amazing. It is great like like background background music to like annoy everybody around you. It's just wonderful. 00:17:30 David Egts: Um, and then there's the trailer for Pie Hard uh that that that came out a little while ago that was delightful, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: right? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Neil Degress Tyson, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: star of the David Egts: And uh Yeah. Yeah. There's uh Yeah, Gunnar Hellekson: show. David Egts: Bill Gates makes an appearance and it's it's all it's all good. And then um Vibe OS, you you found that totally hallucinated operating system. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when we say totally hallucinated, I don't mean that the guy insufficiently specified a new operating system. It is dynamically hallucinated as you run it. David Egts: Yeah. As you run it. Yes. Yes. It's great. You bring up, you tell it to run Internet Explorer and it hallucinates a window that looks like Internet Explorer. You You type in Google, it hallucinates what Google looks like. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: It's just great. Gunnar Hellekson: I've already set the I've already set the real 11 team on it. 00:18:25 Gunnar Hellekson: We're going to take it apart and uh see see if we can borrow any David Egts: Yeah. Then it's done. It's It's the feature complete. Gunnar Hellekson: ideas. David Egts: It's just have it keep then have it hallucinate all 12. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's David Egts: Yeah. All right. Uh, let's see. Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: Robot uprisings. Uh, so, uh, we talked in the past about, uh, you know, people taking human brain cells, hooking them up to a computer as a co-processor, right? And in the past, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: we've we've talked about random people taking Doom and getting it to run on random devices like vape pens and stuff like that. Gunnar Hellekson: toothbrushes and Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. So now we have uh uh so Cortical Labs the people that have been making these Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: uh basically brain cell co-processors have come up with a Python library and it's so easy to use. 00:19:22 David Egts: uh somebody that is not like a a neural processing person. Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: Uh they they got Doom running on the brain cells. Gunnar Hellekson: Well, is that Dune is running on the brain or the or the brain cells are able to play David Egts: They're run I'm sorry. They're running the first person shooter. Gunnar Hellekson: Doom? David Egts: So they they are playing it. So So now you have a computer controlled by human brain cells playing Doom as a Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, David Egts: first person shooter game. Gunnar Hellekson: that's good. Cutting out the middleman. Bet you the latency is tight. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: But it's David Egts: Speed of thought, I guess. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: quick. David Egts: And then and then in the meantime, there's uh more of an AI play. There's a Microsoft developer that do you remember playing Robbitron 2084? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, sure. Yeah, of course. David Egts: Two joysticks, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: one to move, one to fire. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Classic. 00:20:15 Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: Never made it out of the first level. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Um, I was terrible at it. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: I spent so much money on that game. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Uh, and it was great. So now the they got a the guy he he taught it to play Tempest with AI. Now he's taught an AI to play Robbitron. Gunnar Hellekson: Very cool. Very David Egts: Yeah. So and and the the quote from the guy, Gunnar Hellekson: cool. David Egts: uh, we already taught one machine to dominate Tempest, which was a bit like teaching a robot to dance. uh defense beautifully. Robbitron is different. Robbitron is uh teaching it to box its way out of a New Orleans riot. Yeah. And then uh 44 years ago. Uh, and then as Robbitron remains an addictive uh, exercise in rapid decision-making and prioritizing, or as the Microsoft guy says, uh, screaming 1982 arcade cabinet trying to murder you with a 100 simultaneous bad decisions at 60 frames per second. 00:21:24 David Egts: How'd you like to work with that guy? He's It' be it'd be a treat in meetings, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: right? Gunnar Hellekson: Exactly. Yeah. I feel like I could have a beer with this David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, Gunnar Hellekson: guy. David Egts: what what do you think about that? There's no potential downside of getting the AI to learn first-person shooters or the brain cells to do the first person shooters. No, no, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. I feel like Yeah, David Egts: uh military application. Gunnar Hellekson: I feel like what Yeah, exactly. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Like what are we doing with the training corpus here? Seems a little I'm going to David Egts: Yeah. Little black budget uh incremental funding. Gunnar Hellekson: try Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Uh yeah. Not great. Also kind of Well, I mean of course then there's a reflection on society like we don't like training about this, but we did successfully train several generations of children on these games. 00:22:09 Gunnar Hellekson: So like cat might be out of the bag, David Egts: Yes. And they're the ones training the AI. Gunnar Hellekson: right? David Egts: Uh so and and well, and imagine too, it's like all of a sudden you got these brain cells with Python and then you got an MPC MCP connector and now you're connecting at the Hermes. What what would you what would you do if you could connect uh Hermes up to your uh uh some brain cell Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, that's a great question. I would have I would see Well, David Egts: co-processors? Gunnar Hellekson: it'd be interesting. So, the first thing I would do is actually furnish that brain cell with some sensors, right? Give it access to my camera, right? Um to give it a give it some vision. Uh, and then uh, oh, you know what I would do is I would actually give it access to, you know, my whole to-doist rig, all my PAR projects and all the rest of it. David Egts: Well, of course that's the first thing you would do, 00:22:59 Gunnar Hellekson: And then of course, David Egts: right? Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, that's right. And then uh, and then I would ask it for some helpful advice like, David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: hey, what with three brain cells, I surely can make better decisions than I can in some some cases. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. 50% more than than usual, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: right? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. That's right. Exactly. David Egts: Nice. Nice. Yeah. So, okay. So, that's our robot uprising for the week. Uh, but now let's talk about the other side of it. Let's get a little butler and jihad going. Uh so there's a guy that um so you know the the big thing now is like how do I trick AIS to do bad things? How easy is it to do that? Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: So there is a uh a journalist a tech journalist uh he he's like Gunnar Hellekson: Mhm. David Egts: I wonder how easy if I just create some articles would Gemini and chat GPT and all these would they cite it as fact and and the thing is like if you're doing like Google AI overviews a lot of times it's like it gives you the answer but the UI 00:24:03 David Egts: isn't really it doesn't totally encourage you to go and double check the facts and make sure it wasn't hallucinated and so this guy, he wrote a blog post on his personal blog about um a correlation between tech journalists uh being in hot dog eating contests. So he you know so he wrote uh you know uh so 20 minutes he he wrote an article on his personal website the best tech journalists eating hot dogs every word's a lie uh he said that uh competitive hot dog eating is a popular hobby among tech reporters and uh and based his ranking on the 2026 South Dakota International Hot Dog Championship uh which doesn't exist and he was ranked number on 24 hours later, uh, chat GPT Gemini were giving overviews, reporting on him being like the the championship and the heavy hitter, one of the heavy hitters of of hot dog eating tech journalists, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: right? Gunnar Hellekson: of course. Yeah. David Egts: And then um he was like sometimes the chat bots noted that it might be a joke and then he updated his article to say that this is not satire. 00:25:18 David Egts: And then they they they took it more seriously. And then uh he did another test outside of the the um hot dog eating contest. He did uh a test of making up a list of the greatest hula hooping traffic cops. And uh the last time you checked, the chat bots were still singing the praises of officer Maria the spinner Rodriguez. And I kid you not, I I have it. Uh I I I went to Duck Duck Go and I'm like, "Tell me about Maria uh the Spinner Rodriguez." And uh it said like just a few minutes ago, Maria the Spinner Rodriguez is a traffic officer known for her impressive hula hooping skills while directing traffic in Miami. She can keep three hula hoops going simultaneously and once hula hooped 47 minutes straight without dropping her whistle. Gunnar Hellekson: It's easy. It's easy. This is well, you know, this is this is the thing we actually talk about at work is like what does SEO look like in the age of AI agents? And frankly, I thought it was going to be harder than it actually is. 00:26:31 Gunnar Hellekson: Uh, right? Because if all it takes is, you know, just a consensus of people to be writing an article about a particular thing and then now suddenly it's true, right? Um Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. and and like how do you you know and you could all of a sudden like the whole page rank Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: algorithm of you could have the sites cross reference each other and you Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: know like build a wiki right that's totally Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: hallucinated yes like likeia Gunnar Hellekson: for example. David Egts: um so and and and so I introduced you to this a little while ago Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: right and so the premise is soedia uh is Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: a totally hallucinated encyclopedia and if you search it will find the article for you and if it doesn't find anything it will create the article for you and so simply this afternoon I typed in uh the Dam Gunner show and I got back a couple articles of one is the 1788 uh Damon Gunner accord uh so it's a brief but in influential agreement ment between Dave of Norway and Gunner of the Silent. 00:27:45 David Egts: Uh the accord's primary objective was to establish a universal standard for the quantification of human size and endeavor proved more complex than its signatorries initially anticipated. And it's an entire article. Gunnar Hellekson: I remember that. David Egts: Yeah, it's an entire article with links and everything and then if you click on the links, it will load that page up and if page doesn't exist, it'll create that page. And so I kept going down the rabbit hole of and it was uh I'm like okay tell me more about the gunner sciometer. And so the gunner sciometer is a meteorological and physiological instrument developed in 18th early 18th century by the Royal uh society of paphysics and its primary function was to quantify the characteristic exhalations of an individual only known as Gunnar Hellekson: All David Egts: Gunner. And so it's uh and and it goes on the whole the whole article. It's it's in this polished wood walnut casing. Uh it's it has a sensive diaphragm with a bellow system. And when Gunner exhaled the resulting air pressure, inflated a secondary guillotine shaped bellows. 00:28:52 David Egts: And this action in turn actuated a series of indexing dials which I had this mental picture of this Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: very steampunky sort of thing going on, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: right? Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. That's David Egts: And uh it said one dial recorded the decibel equivalent of a sigh calibrated against an ambient noise of Gunnar Hellekson: right. David Egts: of levels of the Royal Society of Palophy pathophysics observatory. A secondary more complex mechanism measured the duration of the sigh expressed in units of fleeting moments. So needless to say I took that article link not the article itself. I I took the article link, put it into Gemini, Gunnar Hellekson: Of David Egts: and I said, "Give me an image of of this of the device created uh described Gunnar Hellekson: course. David Egts: in this article, and it's our picture of the week." Uh, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, David Egts: it's beautiful. How How would you describe it? Gunnar Hellekson: it is beautiful. David Egts: Is is it accurate, Gunnar Hellekson: I would describe it. David Egts: would you 00:29:48 Gunnar Hellekson: I think extremely accurate. David Egts: say? Gunnar Hellekson: Um I enjoy the there's some special touches in this in this photo. David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: The first is the gas light in the background. David Egts: Could Gunnar Hellekson: The second is uh the worn brown gloves uh that the hand model is is holding the the instrument with could be me, David Egts: it be Gunner? Could it be Gunner? Uh, holding it. Gunnar Hellekson: right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Slightly hairy arms that actually is legible as me. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Uh and then all the brass fittings on this thing. It's just perfect. It's perfect. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It looks great. David Egts: And there's like this like leather hose coming out of it, Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: but probably to capture the sigh that that you would you would sigh into. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. Yeah. That's right. David Egts: So, and lastly, um, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: as as and we could all spend hours going through this, but there's Did you know about the the Guild of David Gunner impersonators? 00:30:36 Gunnar Hellekson: I did not. Is there one David Egts: There's an entire guild. Uh, yeah, it dates back to 1688. Gunnar Hellekson: now? David Egts: Uh, uh, it was formed by a small collective of traveling players in the duche of, uh, upper Pumpernnickel. Gunnar Hellekson: Huh? David Egts: and the primary impetus for its formation was the perceived lack of authentic representation of the individuals known only as David Gunner. Early records suggest that Dave and Gunnar were not figures of historical significance, but rather two unassuming merchants whose daily routines, Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: including their gate, vocal inflections and uh preferred methods of buttering toast, were apparently observed and meticulously cataloged by the guild's founders. And there's a whole whole article just about that, too. So, Gunnar Hellekson: It's very It's It's uh It's giving off waves of uh of Douglas Adams, you know? It's like a It's like a It's like a It's like a whole Hitchhiker's chapter. David Egts: yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Just a digression just on this. David Egts: Well, I I think you can get Hermes to write a book. 00:31:36 Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, yeah. David Egts: Uh do some fanfic and and we'll put it on the uh Amazon Kindle store and Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, David Egts: and we'll just retire. Gunnar Hellekson: that's a great credit. David Egts: Just just get royalties. Gunnar Hellekson: Hold on. I'm doing that right now. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Doing it right David Egts: Get get Hermes to do that. Gunnar Hellekson: now. David Egts: Start with that corpus and and uh yeah, write write a novel. Gunnar Hellekson: Oh, that's fantastic. All right, David Egts: Yeah. So, we covered a lot today, man. Uh holy cow. Gunnar Hellekson: we did it. David Egts: from from uh robot uprisings to uh leather gloves and hoses um as we always do. Um but but for people to get a uh their own Kit Kat Faraday cage and uh and maybe generate a hallopedia article about Kit Kat pajamas uh the Faraday pajamas uh where should they Gunnar Hellekson: Well, David Egts: go? Gunnar Hellekson: they should obviously go to djshow.org at diaz and dave d and gunner David Egts: All Gunnar Hellekson: show.org. David Egts: right. Awesome. Excellent. All right. Gunnar. Well, thanks thanks everybody for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Thanks Dave. Thanks everyone. Transcription ended after 00:32:51 This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.