Madelyn (00:00) Hello, welcome back to the new season of the Unscripted Files. is 2026. We had a nice long break and now we are back with a conversation that you may or may not want to hear, but we got to have it regardless guys. I closed out last year talking about how the biggest influence in the unscripted industry is AI. And so I thought, why not open up the year of 2026 talking about it. So I brought on an former unscripted producer who is now in the AI industry Listen, I was nervous to have this conversation. But I feel like it's my job to present to you the reality of the industry that we're working in. Madelyn (00:35) We're dispelling myths, we're giving the facts, and we're talking about the gray area because a lot of it exists right now. So without further ado, here's my conversation with the head of creative partnerships for Stone AI, Simone Buteau Madelyn (00:51) Hey Simone, welcome to the Unscripted Files. How are you? I'm really good. I was so nervous about having you on here because, and you know this, we've chatted about this, AI is so scary for this industry for a lot of reasons. And even for me, was like, I talk about AI a lot, especially last season, we recapped what has changed the industry the most in 25 and AI. Simone Buteau (00:53) Good, how are you? Madelyn (01:17) far and above is the answer. And I was like, how do I bring that on the show and talk about it in a way that's like informative? And just because I feel like it's also my job to inform producers about not what they're up against, but ultimately be real about what the marketplace looks like and what tools are out there. And so I'm really happy that we met and I'm really happy we've gotten to know each other because you really are kind of the perfect source. for this, you're an unscripted producer who's pivoted to the AI industry and just have a lot of insights about what we're up against and you can address all of our fears and misconceptions and all the things. Simone Buteau (01:54) Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm so excited to be here. when we first initially talked, I mean, I kind of said to you like, look, I will be the Grim Reaper here. I'm like, I will put myself in the position because I come from documentary, unscripted production and development. All of my colleagues from the last like decade is from that world. And I'm now in the tech world and seeing all of these tools come out. And I'm like, people need to know if I'm the one to tell people. Madelyn (02:03) You Simone Buteau (02:22) ⁓ If I, you know, get torn apart by saying this shouldn't be a thing, then fine, but we should all know what's down the pipeline, you know. Madelyn (02:30) I agree completely. I think whatever side of the fence that you sit on when it comes to this technology, I think at the end of the day, the facts of the facts, the production companies, the studios that are utilizing this tech, that is very real. And I think, again, it's important as a producer in the marketplace who are bringing projects to market and through the pipeline, I've got to know. You know, when people hear about AI in the unscripted world specifically, so in doc and in competition and reality, in true crime, what do you think they imagine versus how close that is actually to reality? Simone Buteau (03:06) Yeah. So there's, there's kind of two areas where people are talking about AI. A lot of it is happening just behind closed doors, one-on-one, a lot of experimentation, not mandated within companies, but everybody's trying different things and trying different tools, but no one's talking to each other about it. Right. So it's, it's funny. I think what everyone kind of imagines is this like big gray cloud that's descending on our industry and it's from a bunch of outsiders and it's going to cause job loss and like this tech world is going to descend upon unscripted. And I think in reality it's much more like run and gun, much smaller. There's not a ton of adaptation right now. I think we're going to see a lot more in the next two years, but like we're still in the very, very nascent phases and It's really homegrown. A lot of these tools, the best ones, are built by people who come from the unscripted world. And so I think that that's really important to acknowledge because they're being built with the creatives in mind. They're not tech kind of coming in and trying to take over our industry. It's really people within our industry trying to help each other become more efficient. Madelyn (04:18) Yeah, and I, the thing is, is everyone has access to it, at least to, know, Gemini, ChatGPT, Mid Journey, Sora. Like there's all these tools that we have access to, to utilize. And I think we kind of started using them being like, are we allowed to do this? And now, like I was in a pitch this morning with a huge streamer and our entire deck, all the visuals were AI generated and it wasn't, and we weren't trying to hide it. Like it was, very clear, you know? so, and it's just interesting to see how very quickly it went from like something that you kind of were like, we don't really know if we want them to know this is AI, to like it really just being fully accepted, especially in the development phases. Are there any like big misconceptions, you know, when you hear them that you just kind of internally scream, you know, that you see specifically when it comes to production in general? Is it just the hand wringing over jobs? Like, I guess what are some big misconceptions you hear about that you kind of want to address? Simone Buteau (05:12) Yeah, I mean, the biggest one is that the misconception is that AI is causing job loss. And, you know, I won't say blanket statement it's not, but it's certainly not yet really, because again, we're still so early in the capabilities of AI tools in production. There's not a ton of adaptation. The market squeeze happened because of... the greater streaming wars, Netflix hitting the scene, everybody following, the whole pay structure and backend all shifting. And then they kind of inflated, inorganically inflated demand. So then our industry inflated supply to meet that demand. And I mean, I'm sure you remember that heyday where like starting in, you know, 2015 to 2021, everything was flying off the shelves. Madelyn (06:01) Yes. Simone Buteau (06:01) really important juicy content, get millions of dollars for it. Exactly, you had multiple things in production. And then the market started to squeeze because that wasn't, basically the streamers realized that that wasn't going to be sustainable with how much they were charging per subscriber based on how many subscribers they would think. So, you know, I could talk for days about my thoughts on that, but I will say like, Madelyn (06:03) Green lighted on the spot, yeah. Simone Buteau (06:23) I saw the market squeeze start to happen as early as 2021 and it's just gotten worse and worse every single year. AI hit the scene early days in like 2023 is when we started talking about it. And we're not even talking about it being good enough to fully replace any single human job, unless outside of like transcriptions or something like that. So. I think that the misconception is that AI is here and it's taking all of our jobs and it's the reason that our industry is dying. And I'm here to say our industry was dying. And AI is now a tool that people have been using out of necessity. Development Teams is a great example. Across the board at every single production company that my friends are at, there's either been layoffs or are going to be layoffs. or they can't hire, there's hiring freezes. Development teams are like one to two people and they need to pump out even more content in order to get those ones that hit. so we're all, AI showed up at the perfect time and we're all kind of relying on it out of necessity, especially in the development world. Madelyn (07:35) So what parts of the pipeline when it comes to unscripted? So from development, pre-production, casting, ⁓ all the way to production post and distro. What parts of the pipeline are you seeing AI being implemented the most right now? Where is it actually coming in and making a difference? Simone Buteau (07:41) and Yeah, so definitely development. Seen it a lot there. My friends who are at buyers are like across the board. They're like, we can't escape it. Every single pitch that comes in the door has AI. So if you are using AI and development, keep that in mind. Madelyn (08:05) Yes. Yeah. Do they tell me this from the buyer's perspective? are they just sort of like, are they sick? Are they sick of seeing AI generated images? Is it just part of the game now? Does it help them visualize better? Like from a buyer perspective, how do you feel like they're feeling? Simone Buteau (08:19) Right. mean, kind of like everything in this industry, it kind of depends on the person, right? Their mood that day. No. I think that there's smart ways to use creative AI tools and there's lazy ways. And when you use AI lazily, it looks like AI. And when you use AI in a smart way, it looks like a creative project. Madelyn (08:27) Yes. ⁓ Simone Buteau (08:44) you know, like if you're just mailing it in and you are rendering things quickly, throwing the first thing in, that, you you generate, that's one way to use AI for video and image. If you are actually putting a lot of thought into the shot, into hiding faces or showing faces, into like just the cinematography of these AI generated images and videos, that goes a long way. And that's where I think people think that like generative AI is going to overtake creative. But in reality, when you start using these tools, you realize, my God, you need a whole lot of creativity in order to be good at these tools. Madelyn (09:25) It's true. The prompting in and of itself is like a whole art form. Okay. So we're seeing it a lot in development, which we've talked about and you know, frankly, you know, as a development producer, having those tools, I mean, to me is so, so valuable and saves so much time because ⁓ development is a volume game. It really is. And I'm a independent developer and Simone Buteau (09:28) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Madelyn (09:48) I need as many ideas and as many decks and as many, you I have the concepts, but bringing them to life, finding the right reference images, you know, all of these things take so much time. And the fact that I can cut down on that so much is enabling me to get more project to market quicker, Simone Buteau (10:01) Exactly. when you are a single person writing team and it's out of necessity, you cannot hire somebody else, you don't have a writing partner, it can feel like you're writing in a vacuum and you have no idea. It's just good to have something to bounce an idea, a sentence off of and see what else, what kind of other ways it could be explained. Madelyn (10:26) Right. Yeah, I think it's super valuable in development. I don't, here's the thing is I don't actually know anyone who would argue that in the development phase, they have no problem with this. Mostly because development is vision casting anyway. It's right. It's like, it's using references from others to typically communicate your idea. And so I feel like no one will really argue in the development phase because it can be such a slog. It's typically unpaid. I don't really know anyone who's gonna argue against it in development, but once we start getting into sort of other pieces of the pie, there's some resistance. So talk to me about other phases where it's coming in. Simone Buteau (10:59) So I'm going to talk about post first because I think that that's the second big area that I see it coming in. And I'm really excited about the capabilities in post because I think it's, they're more workflow, right? They're not touching creative. They're just getting you to a point where we can, you can dive into creative a lot faster. So, you know, Descript isn't an obvious one that has been widely adapted. It's transcription, it's kind of dipping into editing. A lot of people I know use it across the board. And then you talk about footage organization, string out building, metadata tagging, archival management. There's one company that we're working on it internally at Sony AI and then I know another company that's brought it to market that is all about like basically organizing your footage and then getting you those string outs are daily so you can send those to executive producers or get an editor in the edit bay really quick, a lot quicker. in Unscripted in particular, it's such a volume game, know, like the nature of how we shoot. our art is like unscripted, scripted, when you shoot scripted you're using you know maybe 30, 20 or 30 percent of your footage. When you shoot unscripted sometimes it's like one percent. You have to shoot hundreds of hours to get one. Like imagine and you know the the footage from a day of love island or a day of naked and afraid where you're trying to capture everything. 24x7 over 100 cameras and people have to manually go through that and it takes a lot of time, a lot of resources and AI is something that can absolutely cut that down to a fraction of what it used to be and you know basically prep all of the footage so you can dive in as a story producer and editor a lot faster. I met this wonderful producer on, he's been with Ken Burns for like the last 10 years. He, obviously when you shoot a Ken Burns beast of a project, you're talking about tens of thousands of pieces of archive that people have to go through, tag, find stuff, be able to search the archive. And he's a tinkerer. So he, don't know if you know the term vibe coding, but he's vibe coded his way to a couple of really cool tools that basically just help you like manage a massive archive like that and not, you know that needle in a haystack feeling in post where you're like, so I know that I have this and I can't find it. I think we're gonna see a lot more efficiency in that world. Madelyn (13:28) What other areas, I know AI Recreate is something we've talked about. Do you wanna speak to that a little bit? Simone Buteau (13:33) Yeah, absolutely. So we do AI cinematic recreations as part of StoneAI, and I know a couple other companies out there that also do it. think it's a great use case. You know, let's put aside that there are careers built in shooting cinematic recreations. Somebody like History Channel, Investigation Discovery, these cable... homes who need history and true crime content. And they need them for like $200,000 an episode or less. the budgets are so insanely tight. If the options are either use AI recreations and be able to make it under that budget or not make the show because it's too cost prohibitive, I would rather choose the former because that actually in a twisted way does job create. I know it sounds like I might be rewriting history here, but that's what I've seen from the marketplace. And I also think that on the create, making a creative argument, I think that there will always be a market for cinematic recreations when people have the money to pay for it they really want it. You know, the jinx, Wormwood, a lot of those, especially like heyday docu-series that have beautiful cinematic recreations. need for those aren't going to go anywhere because it is such a piece of the project. recreations have always just been a tool to tell the story and we've already asked for audiences to kind of suspend disbelief. They understand that when we're showing you the recreations, it's not actually John Benet Ramsey's parents. It's not actually Zodiac Killer. So having AI replace that is cost effective and it's also not asking too much from the audience. Madelyn (15:20) Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. you had a good use case, I feel like, where it was a doc for history channel. you're like, how do we do recreate? I don't even know if this, I don't remember what exactly the content was, but it was like, how do we do recreate talking about how they built the pyramids? Or how, you know what I mean? And it's like, and how can we do it in a way where it feels true to the time? Simone Buteau (15:37) Yeah, exactly. Madelyn (15:43) but also is like huge in scale and scope or we're talking about the Titanic or whatever. And those use cases make a ton of sense, especially again, when it comes down to do it for this or not at all, which is what we're all being faced with when it comes to budgets. And there's nothing we can, there's no amount of like, you know, reducing the line items that can make sense. And so it's like, okay, so does this mean we can get two different shows greenlit, maybe one show we love and one show that's new? Simone Buteau (15:47) like Exactly. do 12 episodes instead of six. Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn (16:09) I can see. Yeah, exactly. And hopefully that's what we'll start seeing more of. We kind of talked about this already, like what do we think producers would actually embrace if they knew the time savings? But I mean, I think it's clear here, development, especially in the slog of post, where we know how much time it takes. Another area that I think is interesting that is a huge chunk of budget and time is casting. like, have you... Simone Buteau (16:25) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Madelyn (16:41) seen or heard or I guess of any tools that address casting specifically or is it more that you think the individual casting producers are probably using AI tools in their own way to stay organized to keep up with, know, because they're casting for like traders and also below deck and also beast games. And so do you think it's more a matter of AI isn't going to replace casting directors, but they're already using it as a tool to stay organized? Simone Buteau (16:58) Right, right. Yes, I think for casting and for what's great about our industry is it's so interpersonal, right? It's all dealing human to human. Casting is one of those that like, if you're a good caster, you know how to talk to people, you know how to gain trust, you know how to navigate relationships. And so on the organizational side, I don't, it hasn't been my world. So like, I don't know the specific ⁓ tools that have been used. on the org side, but I do think that in terms of what jobs are safe, I feel like casting definitely falls into the safe category because who, imagine trying to cast a reality TV show and you have a bunch of, you have a casting person who doesn't know the people because they just outsourced all of it to AI and like. You have to talk people into your idea. You have to sell your idea to get these people on board, which is an even harder feat when reality TV and competition shows were fighting for attention on user generated. It's like people who could go onto a reality show could also just go onto their Instagram. And I think selling people on the vision is going to remain human for... as long as we're alive, I think. Madelyn (18:28) Yeah, and I think when it comes to casting, I could see it potentially decreasing the casting window, or I could also just see it being, okay, we spend less time in our spreadsheets trying to figure out out of everyone we've interviewed who's actually available these days, who's actually in these geographical locations, and more time actually getting on the calls, right? Actually getting in, being able to schedule calls, being able to be face-to-face and do this, ⁓ rather than the slog of all of the... Simone Buteau (18:38) Right. Totally. Right. Madelyn (18:55) the paperwork that I know that they have to do. ⁓ Or even allowing, like, is it that AI, you know, handles initial intake form? Like, I just, I can see it being a part of the process where it never replaces actual casting directors. It just gives them more time to actually get into the conversations to know if this person is right for the project or is a star. ⁓ And so this is such a good entree into this. Unscripted specifically is so dependent on people. Simone Buteau (18:57) Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Madelyn (19:23) Like the reason unscripted shows are successful is the casting, it is the people, it is such a personable industry. And it relies just so much on human judgment and instincts. I mean, do you feel like that will ever go away? Simone Buteau (19:28) Thank you. Mm-hmm. I don't, personally I don't. I think if you start to listen to the very, very high up conversations of tech people who are building Claude models and big LLMs, they talk about psychology and philosophy and injecting all that into the LLMs. I don't see that happening on our level. I don't see a need for it. I don't see anyone who would want to replace those things. Have you ever listened to an AI recreation of a narrator and you just know? Like there's inflections, but every like 99th micro sound sounds a little off. It's that uncanny valley and it takes a lot to get to the point where you can actually replace for a sustained amount of time. And I also think that no one wants an AI housewife. That doesn't sound fun for anyone. Humans want to see other humans. That's like why we exist. It's the most innate thing in us. our younger generations are trending towards wanting in-person interactions, opting out of social media. And reality TV is this wonderful, documentaries, the entire unscripted industry. It's... It's good because it's so human to human. And I think, you know, AI can maybe try, but I think it's probably too much of an uphill battle and it won't ever get there. Madelyn (21:02) Yeah, think, I mean, I don't think we're gonna have a Tilly Norwood And maybe, and there's some people who actually would argue with me that see a future where... Simone Buteau (21:09) Yeah. Madelyn (21:11) I was talking to someone where they see a future where we can basically select and we can be like, I want to see these people in a house and these people in a house and here's the situation and I want it to play out. you just cater that to me personally in my Apple vision, you know, I just think that there's going to be an intolerance for Simone Buteau (21:22) Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Madelyn (21:31) anything like that, especially in our industry, which does make me feel really good. ⁓ Simone Buteau (21:33) Totally. I think it's novel at first. I think we've seen this with the large gen AI conversation that's happening. There's so many video models and image generators out there. There's like excitement around it. I personally, I think it's going to plateau. I think we're going to see an adaption rate that slows down because it's fun for a minute. And then you're like, okay, Madelyn (21:54) Mm. Simone Buteau (22:01) I'd rather see like real people doing weird shit, you know? Madelyn (22:05) there's AI music artists. But like the reason we go to concerts, the reason we turn on shows, the reason we're rooting for Timothy Shell, I don't know, like is because we're drawn to their story. We like who they are as people. We got to see all of Timmy's weird, embarrassing videos on YouTube before he blew up to be a star. Simone Buteau (22:07) Totally. Thank you. Madelyn (22:22) It's why Heated Rivalry is going crazy is because there's something very, there's something, know, Connor Story was a waiter at Laurel Grill before he blew up. And like all of that, I think can't be replicated. And I believe that when it comes to the talent on our screens and the actual people that we're seeing, that I don't think that's going to go anywhere. But it, but I think on the back end, you know, it is more of a sort of replacing tasks. ⁓ Simone Buteau (22:25) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. I also, I do want to say also when it comes to like actually shooting production, there's a lot to be said about having a full human cast there too. Which is why I think that a lot of these things are going to be saved. Like if you've ever gone to a taping that doesn't have an audience versus a taping that does have an audience in like the talk show or competition space, there's a reason that we still fill, we still try to fill audiences. It's because it's electric. And the people who we're filming, are, you know, competitors or subjects or characters, they respond to other people being around. yeah, I think it kind of all just bleeds into like, it doesn't, it feels like it's just gonna remain human. Madelyn (23:34) Totally. And we were talking about casting, it's like, yes, it can reshape those tasks that are tedious, but you there's no you cannot tell me that you can train an AI to spot an it factor. Like there's you just there's that human instinct that isn't down to logic or tables or anything that I think ultimately we can rest easy in the fact that I don't think that's going anywhere. Simone Buteau (23:44) Mm-hmm. Totally. Right. Madelyn (23:56) so with this in mind, right, what skill sets do you think are going to be more valuable and not less as we go on in this industry as AI continues to just be part of our normal everyday lexicon? Simone Buteau (24:03) Mm-hmm. Yeah, so obviously, you know, human interaction, emotional literacy, all of that, all of those skills that make you good at casting. They also show up in field producing, in directing, understanding story and narrative and having narrative taste. It's always been important in our industry. I think it's only going to get more important, especially as we see people who are leaning on AI creatively and getting lazy, and then you kind of do see these like formulaic storylines happening, it's gonna be really important to keep your creativity sharp in those environments. mean, yeah, interviewing, field producing, all of those jobs have to do with keeping everybody happy on set and on task and like. on the story and getting good stories out of people. I think all of those are gonna be really valuable. also think ethical discretion and understanding where you as a creative lie within this ethical conversation that we're having, that's gonna be really valuable because as these tools emerge, if you know which tools do what, how they are doing it, you kind of roughly understand which you like to use and which you don't. Whether or not that's completely opting out or completely leaning in, I think it's gonna be super valuable to be able to parse through and say, here's where I draw my line, I'm not gonna script with it, but I am going to write a log line. I'm not going to edit with it, but I am going to footage organize. deciding for yourself where that line is. Madelyn (25:43) No, it's a great point. And I think I mean, I'm sure you've done this. I've done this myself as a creative. you're like, okay, where again, where do I feel like for me personally, I feel very confident about my ability to write. I feel like I was the last plane out of Vietnam. I went to college from 2012 to 2016 and a girl can write a paper. I can cite the paper. So for me, I'm like, okay, if I need to look up some like how to punch this up, like I feel fine about that because I truly don't feel like it's like. Simone Buteau (25:59) you Yes. Madelyn (26:11) lessening my skill set. Like it's something that I never actually learned. And so I think it, but it is very individual, where you feel comfortable using it. Do you think ultimately it's a mistake to resist it altogether in this industry, just flat out saying, I'm not going to use it. I'm not going to learn the tool set. I'm not going to know how to prompt. Do you feel like it is a mistake? Simone Buteau (26:13) Right. Right. I do, I do. It's everywhere. And I'm not saying this as someone who's like, woo, like, let's all celebrate AI coming in. I'm saying this as someone who has seen both sides and is understanding the people with jobs at companies, how they are using it and how their companies are responding to the adaptation of AI. It's everywhere. And I think opting out at this point is going to be a fool's errand because it's already showing up. It's just, it's in these tools that we're already using every day. It's only a matter of time before Premiere and Avid, you know, tell you, hey, why don't you use this AI tool that we have? And I think that if you plan to opt out and you want to, you know, not touch it and you want to remain completely divorced from it, I would at least recommend that you learn what it can do because you don't want to lose out on a job because someone can do it faster ⁓ or cheaper. And I think that that's what we're going to see more and more. ⁓ The more that you know it as an individual, the more that you can create, you can keep the sanctity around your creative skills and show up in the environments that, that, you know, AI is also showing up in. Madelyn (27:33) because we don't want to lose out on a job because someone can do it faster or cheaper. And I think that that's what we're going to see more and more. The more that you know it as an individual, the more that you can create, you can keep the sanctity around your creative skills and show up in the environments that AI is also Madelyn (27:53) You make a really great point and I, again, I think it is up to every individual, but you also, at the end of the day, you know, I don't know, records became cassettes and cassettes became CDs and CDs became iPods and iPods became Spotify. And like, at some point you gotta go, I can resist and that's fine. But no, ultimately what the potential consequences can be if you, Simone Buteau (28:08) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Madelyn (28:17) aren't going to use this tool set, which is completely your prerogative. But I think that's why, again, we're having this conversation. It's because just know what you're up against when we're looking at reduced budgets, when we're looking at expectations, timeline turnarounds, all the above. Simone Buteau (28:19) Yeah. Total. Right. I think there will always be room for people who creatively opt out of using AI. I mean, just like when digital came along, we still have people who are experts in film. But I think that it's just the world is going to get so much smaller and more competitive that I think for the betterment, you might as well figure out where you draw the line within the AI space and not have it be so black and white of opt-in or Madelyn (28:58) Like it's already happening where as production company is when you're executing a production, you're going to be asked what tools you have, where do you use it? How do you use it? Do you use it? And if you seem like you're just kind of agnostic to this, like I just think it's important as a producer, as a company. as an audio engineer, as anyone who's getting brought onto a production or who's involved, like to at least have a perspective ⁓ and a stance. ⁓ Even if the stance is, hey, I don't use it. That's just me, I'm old school, take it or leave it, you know, which is totally fine. But I think know how to answer the question because it's an inevitability in the marketplace right now. ⁓ What... Simone Buteau (29:23) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And also it'll just, it'll sneak up on you. You know, you'll be, one day you'll be using a tool that we've all seen it in our personal lives, right? You're using a tool, whether it's like searching your email and then suddenly it's like offering you an AI solution. And you're like, okay, I didn't, I didn't ask for this. And it's not all, it doesn't always add efficiency, but you know, I think it will show up more. And we're just only going to see more. Madelyn (29:58) Yes. Yeah, 100%. What, in your opinion, like what is the difference between using AI as a shortcut versus an enhancer or like a multiplier? Simone Buteau (30:14) Mm-hmm. I love this question because I've thought a lot about, you know, after this initial adaptation period and kind of squeeze that we're all this pressure cooker that we're all in. like I am so excited and in for our creative renaissance. In the short term, I think that we are looking at it as this shortcut. Like, OK, how do we get things faster? How do we get our tasks done? And There's a bunch of tools bubbling onto the market. You know, there's a new one, it seems like almost every week and it's kind of an arms race right now for them to figure out which ones bubble to the top. But once we kind of understand which ones are best for our industry specifically, I think it's going to be off to the races with multiplying production. So one, I was talking to a showrunner recently and we were, she's in that reality. reality world and we were kind of talking about like, gosh, what would it look like to kind of have a choose your own adventure version of like Summer House or Real Housewives where you like pick a character and follow that character through and then you can rewatch the episode and follow a different character through. think, you know, Netflix tried the choose your own adventure and it was, it fell a little flat. I think it was too cost prohibitive to really push it out. It was a little before its time. But now that we're gonna be able to get through post a lot quicker and put things together a lot quicker, I think choose your own adventure, think gamifying, making competition shows experiential, having it feel like you're there, you're playing with them. I think all these streamers are exploring multifaceted viewing. If you think about sports and replay, there's so many opportunities that are being thought of right now in the tech world, and we are going to see it in the creative world super soon. And I am so excited for the possibilities that we can't even quite imagine yet. Madelyn (32:10) It's a really refreshing take, honestly, because there's so much doom and gloom with AI. And so it's nice to hear someone say, I'm excited for what this can do. Imagine you can watch two versions of traders as a trader or as a faithful, right? Like you can choose to watch it as someone who doesn't know who the traders are and as someone who does. And it is interesting to think of how we can begin to... Simone Buteau (32:23) Exactly, exactly. Madelyn (32:36) they say everything has been done and there's just no way it has because there is potentially this new wave of, okay, well, now that we're cutting time and cost with all these pieces, now the experience of this show, the experience of this competition ⁓ can be personalized in this way. And that's really exciting to think about and it's creatively very exciting to think about. again, it's, and it's not, the thing is that producers have already thought about this. Simone Buteau (32:39) Totally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn (33:04) It's we've been thinking about it for years. We just haven't been able to do it. And so it hasn't it didn't come up with the idea for us. It didn't it's not replacing our ability to think of the idea. It's it's just potentially, you know, able to make that happen and facilitating it because of efficiencies we're finding along the way. And things like that are exciting and refreshing to hear, you know, that is just going to allow us to dive deeper and deeper into the shows and the content, the fans, the Simone Buteau (33:10) Exactly. Okay. Madelyn (33:30) perspectives that we love and like that's all really fascinating and really interesting. ⁓ Simone Buteau (33:30) right? Right. I also want to say I think that our marketplace and where our projects show up is going to become more nimble. YouTube has been in the conversation a lot more recently. And then you have Netflix getting into vodcasts, you have Spotify incorporating video. They're all in competition with each other, but I think we might end up. as creators reaping the benefits because we're seeing more places to put our content. And if there's more places to put it, you can find buyers that have eyeballs. And I think there'll be more opportunities for multifaceted viewing. Taking an idea and having a linear television version, also a YouTube version, also a social media version, and kind of navigating and weaving together all of those different platforms. Madelyn (34:24) Yeah, YouTube is all the rage right now. Well, and it's interesting. Okay. It's interesting you bring this up from a creator perspective. I'll give, I mean, my example is this podcast. I work full-time as a development producer. The only reason I can do this podcast, have time to do this podcast is because I utilize AI for my transcripts, for my edit, for, I mean, nearly everything. And I'm able to have a full-time job and also do this and like have this cool platform. Simone Buteau (34:26) Mm-hmm. Right. That's it. Madelyn (34:50) And I wouldn't be able to do it without these tools. So the idea that, yeah, but the idea that like, I don't know, a working mom or I don't know, there's just, and not to get so like, oh, please be a sympathizer with AI, but it's something that just came to me of like, again, I wouldn't be able to do this thing that I'm passionate about that I really love. I'd be pulling all nighters, whatever, and I would hate it when I really wanna love it. Simone Buteau (34:52) Yeah. You are a multiplier, Madeline. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Madelyn (35:17) and I'm able Simone Buteau (35:17) Yeah. Madelyn (35:18) to love it because I have these tools and I'm able to get out there. And I think about the, I don't know, the working moms who secretly want to have a true crime podcast or whatever, and that they can potentially have these tools at their disposal. so when you think about it in that way, Simone Buteau (35:20) Absolutely. Right. It's an overused word, right, it's the democratization of storytelling, right? Like we've all been talking about the democratization, but I think that that's a perfect like human example to think about when you talk about that. Madelyn (35:51) Yeah, yeah. Well, and again, I think we're looking more and more to just normal people and creators who are starting from their homes or their basements or their whatever. And it's like, how can we ensure that they have the tools and the access to do that? Because the platforms are there. But, you know, the fact that we're able to give them those tools, think, and, you know, because I don't know, I had to learn how to edit. I had to learn how to do these things. And the fact that we can remove those barriers to entry for people to like, Simone Buteau (35:56) Right. Right. Madelyn (36:17) follow these pursuits I think is a really valid part of this equation. ⁓ Simone Buteau (36:21) Yeah, absolutely. And I know that the institution, the people who have spent their entire years or their entire career getting project to project based on people who they know, basically the ones that suffer from the democratization of storytelling because there are people who suffer. We're seeing it in Hollywood, audio technicians. the whole visual effects and animation industry, they suffer because animation and all of these tools are getting democratized. I would just like ask people, what do you, why are you in this industry and what do you want to make? Because if you want to make something, but you did not have, you know, a producer, a director, blah, blah, blah to make it, figure out how you can make it on your own now, you know. Like you can, and you have more experience than a lay person, like just toying with tools at home. So why not, you know, try for that independent project that you've always thought about and just start to like see what that would even look like if you made it yourself. Madelyn (37:28) Yeah, that's a great point. And again, this is not a, this is so, this conversation is so not black and white. There's so many different facets to it. But this particular piece I think is really interesting when we talk about, again, just like, you know. Simone Buteau (37:35) Totally. Madelyn (37:43) everyone got an iPhone in their hand and suddenly became storytellers. this is just another layer to that of providing those tools and there's always going to be kind of good and bad that come with the equation. But when I do think about that, even in the context of just my own personal example, right? Cause that's when it always hits hardest. It's very compelling. And it does again, add some... Simone Buteau (37:48) you Mm-hmm. Madelyn (38:06) lightness to this conversation, which can be very like scary and doom and gloom. You talk to a lot of buyers, you talk to a lot of networks and streamers. What are they like? What are they saying? Are they are they like, hey, we're only working with these companies because we know they use AI and they can cut our line items here. Is it still coming down to we like working with these people and if they use it great and if we can find savings great? Do you see it really causing a stir and causing a Simone Buteau (38:11) Yes. Madelyn (38:31) preferential treatment or does it still seem to operate the same way? And they're just going, hey, like, you know, if you can find some cost savings here, because they ask you, the thing is that they've been asking you to make stuff for cheaper since the beginning of time. It's always, it again, better and cheaper. It's always been that way. That has always been the brief. And now we have tools to potentially actually do that. But from the network and buyer side, what are you hearing? Simone Buteau (38:37) Right. Forever. It's always, it's always, can you be a cheater? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, so I actually have not seen it. This is kind of going back to what I said at the very beginning of this conversation. AI is coming into whispers and like one-on-one conversations. I have not seen it really take over the bigger conversations of how much can we cut the budget by? Give me a number, I need it to be cheaper tomorrow. I think we're going to get there and I think we should all prepare to be having those conversations in the next 12 to 24 months. I think that the cable buyers are much more warm to it because they have those budget constraints and they have linear hours to fill. So they just have stricter rules and smaller budgets. And so, like we mentioned, History Channel, already in the AI game, A &E, Food Network, those are other ones that I'm hearing that are just like, okay, we're... either green lighting from an AI pitch or actually having conversations about using AI in production. In the streaming world, it's kind of all of these buyers are big organizations. For the most part, they don't have any opt in or opt out mandates. It's kind of case by case. It's still a relationships game. And it's kind of like who can make it for cheapest and tell us how you're going to make it. You know, for our show that we're working on, we helped set the deliverables for the AI recreations. We were like, here, we can deliver our chain of custody tracking and, you know, like we can tell you how this AI video was built so it can hold up in court and all of that sort of thing. So like, I think everybody's just figuring out as they go. And we haven't seen a squeeze yet that is coming down from the buyers. I think it is around the corner, but I think like use it to your advantage that it's not in every conversation right now. Madelyn (40:51) Yes, I agree. And I think ultimately when it's such a large group, there's so many different execs. Right now, it's not a huge across the board mandate, mostly because everyone's got to get hip to what's actually available and how it actually like, like, if they know, we know we have this available and we know it can do this. I think there's not that confidence yet. Right. Because those like those tools are being experimented with once that confidence is there of like, Simone Buteau (41:03) Exactly. Right, totally. Madelyn (41:16) we know this casting platform that can do acts and cut. I think once that becomes a thing, yes, there will be more strict sort of top-down mandates of like, our casting windows are now this no exception or our post-production windows, whatever, or we expect to turn around in this amount of time. But I think that we're still like, are you using it? Okay, great, love that. ⁓ But exactly. Simone Buteau (41:27) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Yeah. We're still in trial and error mode. I mean, it's expensive to, if the trial period is expensive, you need a full staff of people and you need to be the time and money to like try something and pivot if it completely fails you. Madelyn (41:53) Yeah, totally. What are some ways for people who are, ⁓ you know what? We didn't talk about this and you brought it up just now of like a chain of custody, I think is what you said. So there's the whole, okay, so like there's this whole question of legality, creative IP. We hear IP all the time, right? Simone Buteau (42:03) yeah. Yeah. Right. Madelyn (42:11) When you're using a tool like yours, for instance, I mean, what, I don't even know what it looks like to protect something, a visual, an idea, a process that is generated by AI. Could you speak to that a little bit and what that looks like for producers who are like, I want to use it, but I'm scared I'll get sued or I'm scared. Like, what is the process of that? And then I also want to understand the disclosure piece. Simone Buteau (42:17) Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Madelyn (42:38) of like, when and where and how do we need to disclose that this is part of our process? Simone Buteau (42:41) Yes. Right. Absolutely. I'm going to answer the second part of your question first, because I think it's a little bit easier and then move into the other one. So where to disclose? This is where my line is drawn. think it is kind of loosely where it is being drawn in the industry. I think on the workflow side, disclosure is not necessary. On the creative side, disclosure is necessary. As soon as you are putting images in front of an audience or voiceover in front of an audience, that I think that's when, even if it's just a footnote in the credits, like please just tell your audience because it just feels like they're gonna get angry if they find out that you recreated without somebody's prior approval. And within that disclosure, think there will probably be arguments to be had. There's a great director, Daniel Lombroso, he's very talented. He's making this amazing documentary where they're anonymizing a main character using AI instead of what used to be just blurring a face. And I think that that actually uses, it emotionally is a great use case because you can still connect with the main character, but save their... their identity. ⁓ Academy Award winner Molly O'Brien, she's using AI on her next project, but in a super artful and straightforward and like very communicative way where she's basically putting a deceased character and with prior approval from family and all that. Madelyn (43:55) Identity? that's interesting. Simone Buteau (44:13) in a very like sci-fi kind of way. And so I think that there are really wonderful creative ways to use it, but you like tell people. Don't just like train an AI, because you can tell when like an AI voiceover, you can just tell. And it's better to just be upfront and say this is AI. I think everybody would be much happier. So like when we talk about generative AI images and videos for the development world, obviously, it's not necessary. Those aren't commercial, commercially used. You don't need to get licensing. For when you talk about broadcasting something, there's these Let me start by saying these conversations are being had in courts right now, right? So I think we will soon have straight marching orders. But what's important right now before, so, you know, people don't get sued before there's strict guidelines, is that you don't want to train on any images or videos that you don't have licensed or own. ⁓ So if you are doing true crime, Madelyn (45:18) Mm. Simone Buteau (45:20) actually think about it a lot similarly to shooting recreations. There's name and likeness laws that you have to be aware of when you shoot those things. It's the same for AI. A lot of our recreations don't show faces because as soon as you show a face, it comes down to, did you train this model off of somebody's face that exists? our chain of custody tracking basically says, Our footage, our AI clip was made at this time, at this IP address, on this video generator. It used text-based prompts. And here's the prompt that was used. And so you can basically say, this is exactly how this clip was made. So if you are doing something like a celebrity recreation, let's say it's Tupac, because we love talking about Tupac in this industry. If we are able to show that the clip was not trained on anything that said Tupac or alluded to Tupac, we did not use his name and likeness, but we used a generic prompt to train this AI video generator, that's what holds up in court. And that's what you're going to be able to, yeah. Madelyn (46:29) Wow, interesting. Okay, and when you say, just for people who like, when you say train, you mean, we're all training our AI every time we talk to it, whether it's your chat, whether it's your mid journey, we're training it, right? And so you're saying that if we say, make me this, but like this, we give an image that is, I don't know, a painting a famous artist has done. that is like an absolute no-go. We don't have rights to that photo. So we're not utilizing other, we're not utilizing work we don't own or IP that we don't own to train. So really the same rules apply. If I wouldn't put it on a billboard, don't put it in your prompt. If I don't own it, I don't wanna put it in my prompt. And so that's kinda like the, yeah, if I don't own it for commercial use, don't put it in the prompt to create the thing for commercial use. Simone Buteau (46:56) Thank Correct. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's called negative prompting and it's like totally not my entire area of expertise. I just know that negative prompting is something that we use in order to say like, you like do not train on this, train on this. And another thing, I'm gonna be getting a little bit in the weeds here, but you know, there's a difference between using tools that have built their own LLMs and then using tools that have built on top of the LLMs. there's, Madelyn (47:22) Okay. What's an, sorry, what's an LLM? Simone Buteau (47:50) Okay, large language model. so LLMs are basically like the models, right? The big models that OpenAI built, that Google built, Adobe has one, Adobe's is very ethical and not trained on any licensed material. That also makes there's kind of like worse creatively as a tool. again, these are things that you learn when you start to interact with, like, you start to understand it more the more tools that you interact with. ⁓ But our tool sits on top of the LLMs. And this is actually an important thing to understand when you talk about creating content for broadcast. Every, every, Madelyn (48:19) Mm-hmm. Simone Buteau (48:30) network and broadcaster has their own rules that they're still kind of defining on opting in or out of AI. So Netflix allows you to use models that NBC does not allow you to. And the chain of custody becomes really important because if we deliver to a Netflix, we have to prove that our work was not trained on any Google product, any Sora or anything, whereas like, you know. Madelyn (48:35) That's right. Simone Buteau (48:53) Netflix doesn't have that sort of safeguard. Madelyn (48:56) Okay, yeah. No, makes that that makes a lot of sense because there's that those are the pieces where I'm like, what is what are the rules? What is ethical? Simone Buteau (49:03) Yeah. Madelyn (49:03) everyone's just figuring it out. think the more that they become hip to the tools that are actually out there, what they're doing, what the legality is, what the repercussions are, things will become much more clear for all of us. Simone Buteau (49:04) you. Right. I just based on what you just said, it's going back to why I believe ethical discretion is going to become such a currency in our industry. Because, you know, if you're somebody who opts completely into everything, but then doesn't know how to use, doesn't know how to not use AI, then, you know, those are jobs that you can't take or vice versa. So I think understanding where your lines are and what you're signing up for. and figuring out where you fall in the industry is going to be really important. Madelyn (49:42) 100%. This has been so insightful, so informative. been so great. I think it's gonna help a lot of our listeners, especially again, as we just all figure this out together. But I do wanna end with some fun stuff. mean, you're a producer, you've been in the industry for forever, you're a consumer. What are you watching right now? Like, are you on Traders? Like, tell me what you're watching right now that you love. Simone Buteau (49:53) Yeah. Yeah. I'm a hundred percent on Traders. I just caught up the other night. ⁓ And on the scripted side, just caught up with Industry. so now, and of course, Heated Rivalry. mean, January in New York is totally the time to binge. So I try to fit in all the shows that I have been meaning to watch. So yeah. and then, Madelyn (50:06) Yes! Okay. Simone Buteau (50:23) Nathan Fielder Tim Robinson. Their most recent shows have been on my list for a while. And so that's, I'm watching all five of those consecutively. Madelyn (50:33) just start okay, so I'm also caught up on traders. I just started industry. I'm still in season one. That's what I hear. So I've actually I just I'm like so thirsty for a new show. And I was like, I need to I feel like I'm gonna love this. So I just started industry. Heated rivalry. I've watched 10 times. I can't even talk about it. I'm like going to the theme night this week. It's like a huge problem. Simone Buteau (50:39) it gets so good. Yeah. Yeah. my god, I'm on my third rewatch. Madelyn (50:58) Okay, great. Yes. We're on the same kind of like media intake. I love that. What, I want to know what reality star you would take on Amazing Race with you. Simone Buteau (51:01) I love it. Oh my gosh, Amazing Race. I literally was going to say Lisa Rinna and then you said Amazing Race. I was like, I simply cannot. Did you imagine? For one episode, for one. Okay, just because Traders is so fresh in my mind, I'd probably say Colton because... Oh, oh my God. Madelyn (51:16) would take her with me. I'm like, what other, what other like duo? I mean, she would be iconic, but I know. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I thought you were gonna say Rob. Simone Buteau (51:35) I could not because I would just be too distracted by how much I love him. And like, it would be problematic. I can't put myself in that situation. I know myself, I need a gay bestie. That's really my sweet spot. think Colton, he's also like, you know, he's so competitive that, you know, he'd just like do all of the tasks for Amazing Race really well. yeah, final answer. Madelyn (51:42) Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay, that's a good answer. Although Colt, there's some dialogue about Colton happening at the moment. Rob, but super, yes, super athletic, like he's super athletic and he's very cutthroat in the show. And Rob, think is just more like with his snakes and everything. I'd be like, you take all the weird challenges, eat anything, whatever, but you're right. It would be pretty distracting. If they're what? Simone Buteau (52:04) Yes, I heard about that yesterday. I haven't dove in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah. Madelyn (52:23) reality show would you like want to bring back and reboot? For better or for worse, what would you like love to see again? Simone Buteau (52:29) Ugh. You know, I'm just as a, okay, I got two answers. The first, because it's back in the conversation as of recently, is America's Next Top Model. I mean, we grew up on it. Like that was my aspirational watch as a middle schooler. You know what I mean? Like for better or for worse. No. Madelyn (52:41) I knew you were gonna say that. Yes. It was, you had to be there. You had to be there. No one will understand how huge that, like honestly, no one will understand. had, so last year, one of the first guests I had on my show was one of the EPs on Top Model. She's a good friend. And I, like as soon as I saw the Top Model doc, was like, girl. But Tyra, okay, they did, but do you think that because Tyra's on it that they're really gonna dig in there? Simone Buteau (53:03) Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. And they got everyone. ⁓ Incredible. Yes. I mean, no. I think it'll be a light touch. I feel like, I feel like we're, you know, especially because we know how the sausage is made a little bit. I feel like the most dicey moments they put in the trailer, that's as deep as they get, right? And like, I'm still gonna watch it. Madelyn (53:21) but they do address a lot of the, yeah, but I'm still so excited. Yeah. Yes. I'm gonna eat it up. I'm gonna eat up every bit. so ANT, yeah, ANTM reboot, please. Simone Buteau (53:43) Yes. And then this is also, so I recently met with the EP of a slew of shows that was very near and dear to my heart. Rock of Love, Flav- I Love New York. And we met and I was like, I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm pretty starstruck because this was my childhood. this- Madelyn (54:02) And what business did we have watching Rock of Love at 11 years old? Like tell me what Brett Michael, like, and I said the thing. good. I was wondering. No, but I think that those, I just had this conversation with someone. I think those like unhinged shows are going to come back, but they're so formative. Yes, I love New York, Flava Flav. Simone Buteau (54:06) I don't. He's doing well apparently! you Yeah. Yes. I do wonder though, yes, I wonder if we'll see them on an unregulated space like YouTube because I think that the risk tolerance is so low right now in cable and streaming Madelyn (54:34) Mm-hmm. Okay. So we'll, be texting you right when the ANTM doc drops and we'll have to dish about it. But, those girls could have never dreamed of AI. they could have never known what was in their future. this has been so wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on and like informing us and having this conversation. And I know that this, I know that while this is like the future, like, I still know that you probably face a lot of like just Simone Buteau (54:39) Yes! My bad. Yes. Thank you, Madeline. Madelyn (55:00) resistance probably in your day to day when it comes to this. So I just appreciate you being like open and coming on and talking to us about this. And it's been great. And I've learned a ton from you and I hope that all our listeners can too. Simone Buteau (55:01) You're welcome. Yeah. Amazing. It's been such pleasure. Thank you, Madeline. Madelyn (55:14) Thanks. Madelyn (55:19) All right. A lot to absorb from that conversation, a lot of different takeaways. I think it was an important conversation to have and I hope that you agree. Thanks so much for listening. I'm back. We'll be back with a new episode next week. So excited to continue having open, honest conversations about the unscripted industry, the creatives in it and what that looks like for us in 2026. Thanks so much. I'll see you next week on the Unscripted Files.