Malik (00:00) a lot of music docs can feel like they're vanity projects for an artist but I like to think the ones I've worked on and the ones I've been a part of whether... at an early stage of development or I've seen through production, none of them feel like that. think a lot of times I want to get to the core of the person and also like, you know, what the A story is this, but what's the B story? How can we Trojan horse something in? Madelyn (00:26) Hello, welcome to The Unscripted Files. My name is Madelyn Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today I have a development executive on that started out filming his grandfather's church sermons that gave him the itch. He got into live PD early in his career and talks about how that experience watching a live feed, trying to figure out the story quickly informed the decisions he makes on some of the larger projects that he's known for The Milli Vanilli doc, As We Speak, How Music Got Free, Lala, The Story of Lala Palooza. We talk all about what is up in the doc marketplace right now? His thoughts on music, sports, cultural doc, what actually moves the needle when he was on the buyer side, what made him excited when it came to a pitch? What does it mean to package a project? So much goodness in this conversation. Cannot wait for you to listen to my chat with Malik Johnson. Malik (01:27) I won't pick my nose. Madelyn (01:28) Okay, that'll make two of us. Malik, welcome to The Unscripted Files, how are you? Malik (01:34) I'm good. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat. Madelyn (01:38) I'm excited to talk to you too. were connected through a former guest and that's always kind of the best thing because you get the automatic blue check verification. Malik (01:49) I'm happy to be here. Hopefully I live up to whatever maybe hype was said. Madelyn (01:51) Ha yes, absolutely. So you're a development executive, a producer. I mean, I just want to hear, I would love for you to paint me a picture of how you got into the industry before we get into everything else. Malik (02:06) Yeah, I always knew I wanted to work in TV and film in some capacity. Like my grandfather, he gave me a camera when I was like 12 and had me record his church sermons. And then that sort of like sparked something. I haven't been to church since then, but it sparked something ⁓ in me and my interest in sort of like what. this industry is, like back then I was recording his sermons and then editing them and putting them on YouTube for him. So then I was like, ⁓ can I make a job out of this? So I started just watching a ton of movies, researching about the industry and learning so much. But essentially after after college, I got a job starting. I was working at MSNBC and I was working as an anchor producer, which is essentially a glorified PA. And when I was working there, I was working for Joy Reid ⁓ and Joy Reid, amazing journalist and when I was working with her I sort of let her know like news isn't like necessarily where I want to stay like I'm interested like everyone is and sort of like politics and whatnot ⁓ but Joy actually had told me she was a document she like went to school for a document ⁓ filmmaking, essentially, documentaries. And I was like, like I did too. We had that mutual interest then. She ⁓ was making a doc while I was working for her, and she asked me to help out on the side. And then after I did that, I was like, I definitely don't want to work in news. So then I started like navigating ways to sort of work in nonfiction and docs full time. And then that led me to work at like Dateline and NBC News Studios. And then the rest is history. Madelyn (03:49) my gosh, the recording the sermons. Even having a camera at that age and knowing how to operate it, understanding editing, like, is kind of a gift, even if it, you know, all the other stuff maybe wasn't, but that's so interesting. And so you got into, was it at Dateline Studios that you got into Live PD? Malik (04:08) Yeah, so I was working at Dateline and I've actually never said this publicly and it doesn't matter now, but when I was working at Dateline, I wasn't supposed to be working another job because I was full time and especially working a job that was a competitor, but a buddy of mine from college, his brother. Madelyn (04:24) Mm-hmm. Malik (04:27) was like, hey, do you know anyone that works in TV and film? Live PD is looking for like APs and then the buddy from college messaged me. He was like, hey, you're in New York. I know you work in TV. Would you be interested in doing this? So I started working at Live PD while I was working at Dateline on the low. So I was at Dateline Monday through Friday and then I was doing Live PD Friday and Saturday. So Sunday was like my only day off. But I did that on and off of the live PD thing on and off for like four years. And it's a really interesting show. know half of the America watches it religiously, essentially my job was to watch the live feed that would come in. was usually in ⁓ South Carolina or Oklahoma, I believe. And as that feed came in from like the cops stopping individuals, I would then have to start building a story out of it. It was essentially part logging, part story producing. So it was me watching why they stopped the person, what interesting things happen, and then what's a good point time to get out of the story. And then, okay, is there anything interesting for us to come back to? So I was having to do that, you know, within like maybe 20 seconds of seeing a feed because that control room is like super, super active and the executive producers and the directors are just Madelyn (05:19) Mm. Malik (05:47) yelling out, who is this, who is that, who is that? So it was a really, really interesting time in a great way, I think, to sort of learn storytelling techniques. ⁓ While it's different, because it's live versus like building a story out in a documentary or any other traditional way, it still sort of like taught me things that I think I sort of hold till today. Madelyn (06:09) Yeah, I mean, what a way to sharpen your skill set and like be decisive and able to understand your entry point, know when it's time to leave. And so how did you take that from, you know, what you're doing in live PD? You mentioned South Carolina and that's where I grew up. And I'm like, Jesus, I'm sure that was an interesting live feed for you. But how did you take? ⁓ my God. Malik (06:29) I have stories for days on the things I've heard just while a camera is recording, but like you're your police officer and you don't sort of care to a bit, but also, you know, that thing is never going on television because it's bad for the show and for me. But no, I also will say like definitely some like trauma from that because, you know, it's like the South cops. can imagine the insane things that are are said. ⁓ But yeah, I had to like put that behind me because I was like, I Madelyn (06:45) Right. Yeah, yes. Yep. Malik (07:02) personally don't like, I think like anyone you want to be happy about what you're making. And that was one thing I always was like, they pay me really, I'll be honest, they pay decent for two days of work. And I was just like, that pay doesn't outweigh sort of my like moral compass to a degree. Madelyn (07:07) Mm-hmm. Right, right. I can't imagine the things you have seen. so much of your portfolio and what you've worked on is documentaries and music. Like talk to me about that transition and how you were able to sort of apply the blueprint that you had here to what you were doing with your music docs. Malik (07:37) Yeah, I think the one thing I learned about live PD or what it taught me was like letting a story breathe. know, live is in the title. So a lot of time it's just knowing when to hop into a story and when to get out, but just letting the moment breathe. because, ⁓ you know, like I said, there's cameras and cops, you face crazy things. But I think that show really just taught me like, hey, watch what happens, sort of let it breathe. And then you sort of understand when to get out. And I think I took that a lot into other jobs. I had in development, which was a lot of, know, development is really just ideating and then building out an idea. And I think that's helped even in my writing, just like, all right, sometimes, you know, when you write a treatment or an outline, a deck, whatever, you can get really sort of like academic almost. And I think. Oftentimes when I go back to what I understood about live producing on live PD, it was a lot of like, all right, you can't just let something, you know, fully happen because there will be ebbs and flows and things get boring. So I think I took just like understanding what moments hit and what don't, especially with the live PD, when you have to actively think about the audience, right? Like a lot of that is like, okay, is the audience getting bored right now? And I think when I go, when I've gone into my other work, I think as someone's a treatment or a deck I've written it's like okay are they bored by this point and it's always trying to keep some sort of juicy or interesting factoid in the writing or in the story that helps people really really stay engaged. Madelyn (09:12) Mm, and that's such a... Again, it's a skill because when you're when it's your work and you're deep in it, it's hard to zoom out and like and make those cuts right like really take away sort of the the B minus content and like make sure you're just keeping the stuff in there. ⁓ you're right. think a lot of those sort of materials, development materials can get and feel so dense because you're trying to like over explain why this is so great and awesome. Malik (09:29) Yeah. Madelyn (09:44) The time to tell it is now and here's all the deep and dirty things, but I think it's a really incredible lesson that you learned early on was how less is more. Malik (09:55) also a matter of collaboration, right? So like, Madelyn (09:57) Mm. Malik (09:58) I hate to keep going back to live PD, but like the live PD of it all is like you have your story and then there are six or eight other counties that you also have to work with to ensure they get airtime. You also have them to rely on a bit. And I think that type of collaboration also goes into the work I've tried to do where it's like, I can have an idea. I can think it's the greatest idea ever. I can think this is the best way to write it, but I also really rely on the teams I've been a part of to be like, Hey, can you take a look? at this, what works, what doesn't. And yeah, think collaboration works as well as just like understanding when to get in and what to get out. Because like, again, you can be the most talented writer, whatever in the world, but if you're not allowing other ideas to influence what you think or do, you sort of like sit in a box. And I think you can sort of like, get in front of yourself from things being like as great or as successful as they can be. Madelyn (10:53) Yeah, it's just such a testament to like how every experience is cumulative. You know what mean? like, like it's like everything is a building block, even if you don't maybe feel like it in the moment. ⁓ Malik (10:58) Yeah. Madelyn (11:04) And I think that's so cool just because LivePD is so different than what you do now at face value, right? You know, you're talking about collaboration and creatives. mean, were there, are there any creatives out there, know, directors, producers that you feel like you really looked up to as you were sort of getting into the storytelling space of music docs that really maybe shaped, your tone, your preference, like, or just that you sort of looked at as a North Star. Malik (11:36) There weren't necessarily like people like filmmakers or anything that I was like, especially in the doc space that I was like, ⁓ I absolutely look at them as my North star for like the work I want to do. There have been some since, you know, working in the industry for 10 years. Like, I think everyone I've ever worked. Madelyn (11:56) Yes. Malik (12:00) on a film with, I think I've taken a bit of their sort of expertise or their knowledge and I've tried to take it along the way with me, whether it's, you know, Alex Stapleton, who I did a film with, ⁓ this guy Luke, I did a film with about Millie Vanilli, Jason Harper, who's a good friend and I think one of the best in the world. ⁓ Yeah, there's a ton of just like... I think 10 years in to my career, there's a lot of people I now sort of like take aspects of or like when I go into developing or producing something, I'm like, how would they do this? What would be their approach? Because they are such successful, you know, directors that I think the best way to approach sort of like development is like, what would they sort of do to this to sort of like really zhuzh it up? And that could get whether a buyer excited for it or if I'm working at a buyer, what can get my boss excited for it? Madelyn (12:52) Mm-hmm, yeah. When it comes to music, do you tend to be more drawn to the mythology of a mille-vanille or the business side of the industry? Malik (13:07) I think I'm more interested in the mythology of it, but it's funny when it comes to like sports stocks, I'm more interested in the business side of it. But for music, I'm more interested in the mythology because like the concept of just being an artist in that regard, being an entertainer is like fascinating. Like what you have to do, sacrifice. Madelyn (13:10) Mm. Mmm. Malik (13:30) to become one of the best. For someone to even know your name or for you to have a fan base is rather interesting and I've always been interested in trying to find ways into those stories but not in a vanity way. know, a lot of music docs can feel like they're vanity projects for an artist but I like to think the ones I've worked on and the ones I've been a part of whether... at an early stage of development or I've seen through production, none of them feel like that. think a lot of times I want to get to the core of the person and also like, you know, what the A story is this, but what's the B story? How can we Trojan horse something in? And I think a lot about the Milli Vanilli doc, for example, like on the surface, that was a story about the scandal, you know, that erupted the music industry and Okay, yeah, that's great. A lot of people are interested in that. But, you know, just behind that, it's really a story about race and how these like two black guys from Germany, ones from Germany, ones from France became scapegoats for like white music executives. And I think that is something that I often find myself looking at is like, okay, this is the story that's on the surface. But when we just peel back the layer a bit, what else is there? And yeah. Madelyn (14:42) That's so interesting. I wonder, you when you talk about music versus sports and like where your interest lies, I want, do you think it's because making it in entertainment feels so much more abstract and like it's based on so many other factors versus in sports, it's concrete, it's stats, it's power, it's winning. Like it's, it feels a bit more concrete than like sort of striking gold and making it big when it comes to entertainment. And so the lead up to that just can maybe be so much richer maybe in a sense. Malik (15:20) Yeah, I think it's part of that and like, yeah, like an artist, it's really an individual story, right? Like, unless you're doing, you know, a film on a group, but also how all those people sort of converged into one is also individual stories that then connect into one. Yeah, and I think sports sometimes it's really this larger story of, unless it's like, you know, the top 1 % of athletes, the Serenas, the Federars, the Nadals, the Jordans. ⁓ Madelyn (15:25) Mm-hmm. Malik (15:50) Tigers, but a lot of times it is sort of this like, oh, this is a team effort. And yeah, not that I'm less interested in that, but I guess, yeah, to your point, I am interested in sort of like, oh, the individualistic idea of how this person came to this moment and how they got there. And yeah, it's rather fascinating. Like, yeah, yeah, I think I've never really thought about that. So really interesting you asked me that question. I'm a bit stumped. But yeah, I think that is something that Madelyn (16:15) You Malik (16:19) I guess maybe on the surface I haven't always realized, but yeah, the individual story opposed to sort of like this team effort is something that I think is rather interesting. Madelyn (16:28) Yeah, yeah, for sure. What sports, I mean, you talk about letting a story breathe, and I mean, what, are there some sports documentaries out there that you're like, this is so perfectly done and, or it's just, it's in your, okay, yes, go. Malik (16:44) I think two of the greatest sports docs I've ever watched come from one director. Yeah. One is called Outcry. It was on Showtime. It's actually, I think it's like a six or eight parter. ⁓ And then the other one is called, it's about this guy, Christian Dawkins, Madelyn (16:50) wow. Okay. I'm looking at, I'm looking it up now, because I'm like, how am I not heard of this? wow, this is intense. Malik (17:10) Yeah, it's like, and that's sort of the thing I was mentioning before, right? Like on the surface, it's a sports doc. It's about a local high school football team, but it's a scandal, right? And it's a scandal into sort of like, did this thing happen or did it? And it sort of like touches on one, how people protect athletes, I think at times, right? Even in a local high school setting. Madelyn (17:20) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Malik (17:40) And yeah, I think it's just like one of the most amazing films I've ever seen. It doesn't, oftentimes I think, because it's a sports story and a true crime story, oftentimes I think true crime especially can just sort of like tell you who the culprit is and you sort of are just like along for the ride because it's entertaining. But this story specifically, there's never a moment where you're like. Madelyn (17:47) Yeah. Right. Malik (18:03) no, it's this person. no, it's that person. It really just like leaves it up to the viewer to make that decision. I've watched the film multiple times and I've always just been like, I don't really know what I believe. Madelyn (18:08) Hmm. Don't you love that though a little bit? there's, was talking to, I had the guests of, you know, the Cosby doc on and a couple of other things where it's like two things can be true at once. This person made a huge cultural impact, but this also exists. And. Malik (18:29) I will say that Cosby doc is amazing because I remember watching that a couple of years ago with some friends, I think it was at Sundance and someone got a pass for it. And we watched that. was like 20 of us in an apartment in LA and we were watching that doc. And it was funny, we were all going to go out after, but after watching it, we were like, now we all should like go home and really think about things. But to your point. Madelyn (18:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Malik (18:57) That film is amazing because it really asks the question, and I think the best way that's ever been documented is, can you separate the art from the artist? And you can't, and I feel like what the film is trying to tell you is, you can't really separate the art from the artist because while that artist is making art, they're also doing these bad crimes. Madelyn (19:13) Mm. Malik (19:14) And you can't really ignore one and highlight the other because they are converged. They almost are able to do the crimes because they know that the art is maybe the escape and people will forgive them because of that. But yeah, that's a phenomenal film. W. O'Kamaabal did amazing work on that. Madelyn (19:30) Yes, yes. I, but that, I do love how... I love films that don't make the decision for you. Like it presents the facts, right? And it presents like, ⁓ well, like our mutual friend Cole, right? With Magic City, was like, there was a lot of nuance in that as well. was this music video empowering for women? Was it disgraceful? Like, and so I really love storytelling that lets it breathe. also like, it's sort of like, hey, I'm going to present this to you and I'm going to force you to think about it and not draw a conclusion for you. ⁓ yeah. Malik (20:02) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing that's too heavy handed, but it's also not like trying to confuse you too hard. Madelyn (20:08) Yeah, yeah. And so this director did outcry. Did you mention the other one that they did? Okay, I see that here. Malik (20:13) Yeah, it's called The Scheme. It's the story about this basketball NBA insider, Christian Dawkins, who basically hustled the FBI and... embarrassed them to a degree that I don't think has ever been documented. But it's essentially about college basketball coaches who were doing a little pay for play to get access to recruits. And essentially Christian Dawkins acted as the mule where he would give access, they would pay him, and then he would give them access to these players. But the interesting thing is like, he never really committed a crime because he never was like actually represented. Madelyn (20:36) Mm. Malik (20:55) these players. He just like knew them from around town and promised things that he could like sort of give but never really and just enough people in the NCAA were sort of bamboozled by him that they gave him all this money and then the FBI as they often do and you see with maybe other major scandals that are happening right now Madelyn (20:56) Right. Malik (21:18) should have gone after the coaches, but they didn't, they went after him. And he sort of is like, he was the scapegoat for that entire NCAA pay for play situation. But the same director did that, did the Ski Man Outcry, Pat Kundalus. And those are like two of my favorite sports docs ever because they're not just about, you know, an athlete. Madelyn (21:24) Right. Malik (21:40) being triumphant or like, you know, Jordan's, you know, pneumonia game when he had, you know, when he was really sick, it's really like, we're telling this story that sports is at the center of it, but there are other elements and yeah, I just, really just connect with stories like that. Madelyn (21:55) okay, so music and sports. are two, like when it comes to doc, sports is like the mandate right now. I mean, it has just gotten so crazy. ⁓ It's trickling down into dating shows. I mean, it's everywhere. So then what do you feel like? in those genres actually moves the needle when it comes to getting traction? Is it cultural impact? Is it crime and scandal? What do you think actually moves the needle with these genres? Malik (22:26) I think when it comes to music right now, you're seeing less and less music docs. ⁓ I think there was a solid five years where music, I mean, true crime has been the dominant genre within nonfiction for probably the past 15 years, maybe longer. ⁓ But with music, I think it had a couple of years, but a lot of those stories have just been like. used and abused and you don't really see as many people buying the music stores anymore because they're really waiting for the top, I think 1 % of the artists to like come out and do something amazing. And then for sports, what I think really is resonating right now is there's no more like in season follows because that's sort of boring because happening. No, yeah, no, mean, and I know the team that made starting five amazing people, Madelyn (22:59) Mm-hmm. No, no, we're starting five. but like the cheer, the starting five, those all, and then was everything was it's X, it's starting five, but X or it's cheer, but X and we just. Malik (23:22) Yeah, well yeah, everything was like last chance you but this last chance you but that's ⁓ but with sports right now and I think celebrity is Going to sell because network execs want Madelyn (23:26) Exactly. Malik (23:36) to know that you have a built-in audience. they're going to more likely than not sort of buy something if they know, know, nonfiction and docs aren't marketed as heavily as scripted stuff. and I've like sat in meetings where this has been the case where if you're going to invest in a project, it's okay, is there a built-in audience already? I, know, knowing that you're not going to get as big of a marketing budget, can we rely on the fans and the audience of this person, athlete or this artist to really market it for us and then do sort of like free marketing. And I think that's the stuff that's resonating right now and is who is the person, what's their audience and how big is their audience and will their audience engage as much. I think another thing with in sports right now that no one's really, I think focusing in on is like I said the end season follow is not going to happen because once that airs that season's already done you watched it live what is the real goal of someone watching it after the fact, it's like, the inside look, but it's like all these artists do interviews anyway. I think there's like a business side of sports that is sort of untapped. think when you look at a film like Air or Moneyball, those are like films that audiences are constantly talking about. And I think if you look at sort of that in a nonfiction way, I think you can really find some interest and some interesting angles into stories because like I said, Air was a You know film, but that's based on a book by Phil Knight who you he wrote about the the the founding of you know, Nike, you know, that's a nonfiction book. It can easily become a documentary moneyball also based off a book can easily become a documentary and the access is already there. You have the trust of the journalist. So I think a lot of going forward. I think if there's a there should be a larger focus in on how can we tell stories that focus on either the business side of it or what are things that have proof of concept either a books written about them, a really interesting article that got a lot of traction, which I mean, that's not new articles have are a major part of nonfiction and have been for the past 10 years. But I think looking at these other ways into sports, because people are so engaged in sports. And I think even if you look at how much people bet, right, that's really people being interested in the front. sort of like the front of house of sports. It's really, will this person do this? Will they do that? And that's really just a business interest. So I think if you sort of look at sports, films and documentaries, is that way is like, what are other ways to engage in that? Like everything that's, I'm sure someone's gonna make a doc on betting soon, right? And like, that's something that's probably gonna do amazing because people are interested in it. So I think really the business side of sports is like. Madelyn (25:55) right? Malik (26:19) the untapped part of the nonfiction and sports space that I think people will start focusing in on and if they don't I will and hopefully I make it. Madelyn (26:27) Yeah, no, I agree with you. But I think a lot of it is people are scared. like universities and obviously, know, franchise brands and things like that are very protective of how it all works. But... Malik (26:33) Yeah. I think it's also with some of that stuff, especially the betting stuff when it comes to nonfiction is a lot of these places you're trying to sell to have betting ecosystems or partnerships with those places. So they don't really want to, you know, bite the hand that ultimately feeds them. Madelyn (26:51) Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. lot of everything is connected. It always feels, it feels that way a lot lately. when you look at the projects that you've been on, what, if you can compare them side by side, like, what do you feel like the connective tissue is? Malik (27:14) I think the connective tissue in a lot of the projects I've worked on, I'd say some of the ones that have maybe resonated the most in the ones I've like felt especially proud of has been like centering black stories. I think, you know, while I don't avoid telling non- Black stories, think naturally I want to highlight those stories because historically they've been overlooked. And at times I've, you know, where at times when I've been in a seat where my voice can help influence a decision, I have felt honestly a need to uplift those stories because in the rooms I've sat in or places I've worked, you know, there are a million people that'll champion a story about, you know, a non-POC individual. But when I've been blessed to sit in those seats, I feel like it is almost like a duty to highlight those and really champion them because if not me, then who? So I'd say, yeah, think like centering ⁓ sort of like blackness in a way that is entertaining, but also like digestible. And even if it's maybe not. ⁓ still just like something that is meant for us and by us. think I see that a bit in, you know, I worked on a film with Jason Harper about rap music in the first amendment that the Millie Vanille story, we did one on, you know, the piracy era of music called how music got free. And the central character that is a black man from North Carolina who essentially completely, you know, destroyed the CD industry. No, yeah. Madelyn (28:36) as we speak. Yeah, he like started the pirating. ⁓ Malik (28:55) He's this guy, Glover. Yeah, Del Glover is an amazing individual. But yeah, Madelyn (28:56) Is this the father of limewire? Malik (29:01) those stories, just, I feel like oftentimes connect with me up for obvious reasons. I'm a black man. But I just also feel like, you know, traditionally those projects would... Madelyn (29:07) Mm-hmm. Malik (29:14) maybe have gotten overlooked and I'll speak to them. I think a couple of those projects I've mentioned were projects that a lot of my peers at other networks had passed on, but I believed in the filmmaker and I believed in the story and they ultimately did well on the platforms at the time I worked there. Madelyn (29:32) Well, and that's because when you have passion, nothing can really match that. And so thank God it didn't land at any of those other buyers who wouldn't have maybe given it half of the... passion and investment that you did, you know what I mean? Like I think it's so, I think you said for you, by you, and I think that that's like, there can be a lot of content that is for you, about you, but not necessarily by you. And I think that's like the third component that's so critical, Malik (29:50) Yeah. Madelyn (30:03) I'm curious, you you talked about a little bit about being on the buyer's side and sort of, you know, I'm curious about your buyer's point of view. I can't imagine how many pitches that you heard, but what stands out to you? Like, you know, when you're in a pitch, you know, is it that passion I just mentioned? Is it just black and white for you? And you're like, it's the access, it's this. I mean, I don't know. I feel like you actually have taken a lot of risks. You know, I know that Jason was an editor. It was his first time directing. And so it seems like you're taking some risks. You're going for projects others are passing on. so what is it that makes you do that? What stands out to you at a pitch? Malik (30:44) ⁓ I think even before the like pitch or like if I do take a pitch and then before elevating it, cause I've never been like a sole decision maker anywhere I've worked. I've always answered up to people who have more years experience and, and, ⁓ Madelyn (30:59) Mm-hmm. Malik (31:04) power than me, but I think everywhere they've entrusted my ability. But I think I would say what I try to really understand is, you know, story can be amazing or not even that interesting in the pitch. I like think most times and not when I really believe in a story, it's 100 % the filmmaker. It's 100 % who they are. And I try to get to know them. It's simple, but like, you know, everyone in the industry does the coffees, the drinks, the whatever. I like really enjoy doing that. Not for like the expense account of it all, but it's really like, okay, if we're going to spend money and time for a year and then a million plus dollars on working on something, do I actually believe in the vision you're selling and do I believe in you? So I think before there's an access conversation before there, There's an archive, a conversation. It's really trying to understand the person. the perfect example I can give is when I did, as we speak with Jason, he had like, I think he had pitched the project to me and like one other person on my team at the time and a smaller capacity. But then we had to pitch the president of global music at Paramount Plus at that time. And before that, I was like, this guy afterwards, the president is going to be like, all right, Malik, do you really believe in this? Do you really trust him? I got lunched with Jason and one of the producers and just really sat there and barely talked about the project, but really just talked to Jason about himself and then the bit about the project. And then from that, had the, I think, confidence to be like, all right, you know, I really believe in this guy. And I had known Jason's work before that. had watched down a dark stairwell. I'd obviously saw the Kanye doc genius that Jason edited and, you know, kudos to Kude and TK. Madelyn (32:53) I can't imagine what that was like. Malik (32:58) yeah, editing that is probably... Madelyn (32:59) What a responsibility. so, again, we talk nuance. I mean, what a feat to be able to... That is a crazy responsibility. And again, so multifaceted. Malik (33:15) Yeah, but if you ever get the chance to talk to Jason or I'm, as the kids say, glazing, ⁓ you'll realize he's like so freaking intelligent. And that was another thing is that like, he's someone that just the materials for the film we worked on as we speak were some of the most thorough materials I'd ever read. Anytime I had a Madelyn (33:21) Yeah. Mm. Malik (33:37) question or thought about something, I went back to that. But to go back to your initial question, I think it's really like understanding who the filmmaker is and what their desire is to make the film. Is it a personal connection to it? Are you from the area? ⁓ Does it connect to your family's past or history? So really understanding all that. then from there, you know, as long as you have access in the archive and the story doesn't just feel like elementary, I think it's a no brainer that like you should at least try to develop it, not maybe fully produce it, but at least try to develop it, whether it's paid or unpaid. ⁓ So yeah, I'd say it's really just like trying to understand the filmmaker and what their desire is behind making anything because ultimately it is art and why does anyone make art and it's to express something. And I think when I'm looking at those projects, it's like, okay, what is this person trying to tell or convey? And then once I feel like I have an understanding of that, then I definitely understand how the story and the film will play out. Madelyn (34:40) From a strategic perspective, let's say I'm a producer, I've secured access to this artist, this world, this whatever, right? And I come to you as an executive and I'm like, this is incredible, but... it's not necessarily anchored in storytelling. Like I have the access, I have everything, but I'm like, but the, how we're gonna tell the story, it's not there. Do you feel like your advice then to a producer would be go get a director attachment and come back and talk to us? Malik (35:13) Yeah, I would say if someone has like access and an idea, but they don't understand what their take is, yeah, go find a director because the director is going to find a vision. And I think it would it's also important to like. Madelyn (35:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Malik (35:28) Talk to a couple of directors. One of my favorite things that happens in the industry, but it doesn't happen as often anymore, is bake-offs. I can't speak on the project, but a couple months ago, I was working on a sports doc about a legendary ⁓ athlete, and we had probably nine directors come in and pitch us their take. And it was amazing because you just see how they all approach a story differently. Madelyn (35:29) Mm-hmm. Gosh. dreamy. Malik (35:57) I think ultimately from that, you understand what's the best way to sort of go at this. And I think, like you said, on the producer side, it's like, yeah, go understand or find a filmmaker and see like, hey, I have this access, I have this story, what's your take on this? And I think that can really help a story. Madelyn (36:01) Mm-hmm. Right. Malik (36:16) rather, I think it could help a story sink or swim. Because if you don't have a POV, think like, you know, survey docs exists, but do people really enjoy those as much anymore? I think maybe the general audience, but when it comes from, I think, ⁓ a critical standpoint or someone that also is rather invested in nonfiction, if it doesn't really have a POV, then I think people aren't going to enjoy it as much and it's not going to have as much staying power. Madelyn (36:46) Agreed. Totally agree. think as a producer too, I think it's just important just to not underestimate the power that packaging a director onto your project can bring. And again, like, and knowing your own limitations as well. If you're an amazing storyteller, like great, lay it out for us. But I think it's important to go like, ⁓ I need, I... Malik (36:59) Yeah. Madelyn (37:07) I want to hear someone else's POV, I want to bring something strong to this. Instead of like, here's the world, look at all the things we can do. I find that bringing something that says, here's the world, here's what we're going to do, and here's how we're going to tell this story is just so much stronger. ⁓ So this is a great piece of advice. ⁓ Do you feel like, this is interesting, do you feel like things are trending, and you can talk sports, music, sort of whatever, you know, in the pop culture space when it comes to these docs, but do you think they're leaning more towards like, Malik (37:13) Yeah. Yeah. Madelyn (37:36) Artists, are they leaning more towards eras? We're in a big like 90s, 2000s nostalgia right now. ⁓ Or issue-driven stories right now. Like what do you think is really moving the needle in terms of what's getting bought and what's actually making it? Malik (37:54) I think it's the artist access thing. think sort of like I mentioned before, like issue driven stuff is typically depending on who it's for and essentially like who the platform is, they may highlight that more than someone else. But I'd say most platforms are. Madelyn (37:57) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Malik (38:14) access driven and it's because like you want the built-in audience you want people to be able to find it easily ⁓ but I think issue driven storytelling is also important but it's like what is it there's this like great saying that this woman Amanda Spain I used to work with that ever wonder has it's like I think it's like gourmet pizza or something Madelyn (38:18) Right? Is it like hiding the pill in the peanut butter? Is it like vet? Yeah. Yeah. Malik (38:38) Yes, that's actually, I think the phrase she uses. And I think it's something ⁓ like that. It's like, yeah, like you could lead with issue, but so often people don't want to be told how to think or feel like we mentioned. So finding a way to, I love using the term like Trojan horse and I'm excited for the Odyssey to come out. ⁓ it's like Trojan horsing these stories. I think if you're going to have an issue driven story, it's like what else? Madelyn (38:56) Totally. Yes. Malik (39:07) can you sort of cover that with? So people look at that. Example I can give you is, I actually have a meeting after this about a sports story about a legendary sports team during a specific time, and it's a ⁓ WNBA team. And I think I can say this, like. Over the past year, a lot of networks and buyers have said, we want women's stores, we want women's stores, we want women's stores. But they haven't really been buying them. They have not been buying them at all. Madelyn (39:36) No, they haven't, because I've tried. Malik (39:39) It's a lot of lip service. So I had this idea about this WNBA team and on the surface I was like, this is a good story in its own, but I realized to actually, I think, move this forward, we need to attach something else. And I can't specifically say what that other thing is because it would give away the story and someone could just easily make it and I'm in the process of it. But I think it's like finding a way to, like you said, put the pill in the peanut butter. Madelyn (39:41) Yes. Malik (40:06) And I think that is the, I think in a way, a way that at least stories really shine to me. And I think a lot of execs I know, buyers or, you know, sellers that sit in executive seats also resonate with that as well. I think, yeah. Madelyn (40:25) Well yeah, and I mean, we can get into that everything is connected of it all, but as we go back to ad-supported everything... We have brands that need to align with content that like, everything we have to be, more Trojan horse, pill in the peanut butter, hide the broccoli of it all. Not only because that's commercially, I think what we're gonna be forced to do, but also as a viewer, yes, you wanna come to the conclusion on your own, like we were talking about earlier and do it through a human story. So I do wanna talk about as we speak because, you know, Malik (40:59) or yes. Madelyn (41:01) driven sort of doc that you did that ⁓ you know the First Amendment is a hot topic at the moment. ⁓ When you evaluated the project early on what what felt really urgent or compelling about the story? Malik (41:15) I think as we speak, it sort of came to me at, I think, the perfect time. It was after Young Thug and Gunna had already been arrested for their transgressions and whatever was going on in Atlanta. And I think... Madelyn (41:31) Mm-hmm. Malik (41:38) I saw actually, I'll speak bluntly, there was like, know, Jigsaw announced they were doing a young thug and gonna thing. Hulu had done something. A ton of people were trying to tell this story, but I think they were trying to tell it in like, whoever gets access first will tell it sort of way. And as we speak was not about them at all really. Madelyn (41:57) Right. Mm-hmm. Malik (42:03) I don't know if you've watched the film, but the film mentions Young Thug and Gunna, think, in the first 10 minutes and then doesn't mention them ever again. So what stood out to me was that this story wasn't going to be this like salacious, celeb driven project, but more of an issue driven story. And that's what Jason did so well was really touching in on rap music in the First Amendment. How are these things going at each other and why are they going at each other? So that really stood out to me that he was just taking a different approach from every other story that was out there. And then again, to speak on the IP of it all, he had partnered with this guy, Eric Nielsen, who wrote a book 20 years prior about the issue called ⁓ Rap On Trial. Madelyn (42:47) Mm. Malik (42:51) Eric was attached to the project in a consultancy basis. So that was another added thing that I just felt like, of all these other projects that are trying to do this, this project will, I think, the most value because it has a lot of the key people attached to it, but also is approaching the issue first and not the sort of like celebrity of the issue first. Madelyn (43:13) Yeah, yeah, definitely. ⁓ We talked about this already, so I won't... get a ton into sort of like why you were convinced that this could be a debut feature for Jason. But I guess I'm curious about your collaboration. And what did it teach you moving forward working with directors and visionaries? Malik (43:36) I think when it came to that film and I worked on that film when I was at Paramount Plus and MTV and ⁓ I two other colleagues, Amanda Kokowski and Laurieann ⁓ working on that film with me as well. And I think what we really did was like, just trust them. You know, we had our traditional notes process. We had our calls every week. But what we really did was like, Jason and the team, you know, we just really said, hey, we love this idea. We love this story. We don't want to get in the way too much. We truly had like one major note that entire time. ⁓ and the rest of it was really, we trusted in the process and we trusted in them. And I think it was, I've talked highly of Jason so much already, but I think it was him and then the team at Park Pictures, Sam Bisbee and Danielle Massey, as well as the team at District 33, Sam Widows and Peter Kamber, who I briefly. pass through the night with when I was at Quibi, they did a project for us over there. But it was really just like this group of people coming together to make something all of whom I was fans of. I knew it was going to be something special. So it was really just like trusting in Jason to do it. And then like understanding that he's truly a brainiac and a genius that like he wasn't going to deliver anything bad. And if there were ever any questions we had, it was just as easy as picking up the phone and calling or talking to the entire team and then things just like were answered. There was truly never a moment where we were like, what the hell is going on here? It was just like, wow, like constantly being surprised. And the beauty of that film was... you know, through the process of working at a network, when you're making a film like that, everyone within the company for the most part is watching it. have BA, S &P, marketing, whatever. When we were getting in cuts of that film, and I'd never seen anything like this before, every single department would like reach out to our team and be like, this is something special. This is something different. And then with that, we just like, after getting that note on like, from internally on the first cut, we're definitely like, all right, Let them just do what they're gonna do. We should not, we should not try to mess with this too much. Madelyn (45:50) Let him cook, yeah. that's so wonderful. And how validating to get, I don't know, for you to be like, my instincts were totally right. That's so validating for you as well as a buyer and as someone who has to make these type of decisions. That's pretty incredible. Malik (46:12) Definitely validating, but also like ego inducing. Because after that, I thought I was the baddest man in the world. But then I was like, all right, you have to find something else. And then we found a lot of things. But yeah, it was phenomenal. Madelyn (46:16) Yeah, you're so right, of course Of course. No, that's so incredible. What genres or eras of, well, we talked about sports, like what we feel like is untouched, right? The business side of things. But is there anything else, music or pop culture otherwise? Like areas that you feel like are kind of underserved right now or need more attention? Malik (46:44) Yeah, I mean, I think there's so much that's underserved. I think a lot of platforms should really invest in short-form documentary a lot more. think independent docs should get, I think, bit more love. And you see that with places like the nonfiction hot list popping up and their partnership with Yahoo. ⁓ Yeah, think just like there's no specific Madelyn (46:59) Yes. Love them. Yahoo. Malik (47:14) genre that I think is like too too underserved that I can think of and maybe I'm just like being completely oblivious to it, but I think it's really just like looking at different areas because I always I when I worked at onyx years ago, there was this woman I worked with Jackie Glover who said something that always stuck with me because at onyx a lot of times we were and then I'll bring it back into the question you asked. we would always use the term comp. So it's like, what's a comp for this? What's a comp? And it's like, what's the comparable project on the marketplace? And then I remember she said to me, we were like having a one-on-one and she was like, Malik, what does that mean? And I was like, sort of shocked. was like, you don't know what a comp is? She was like, no, but like, I know what it means, but why do we keep saying it? Because she was like, she worked at, she came from HBO. She was like at HBO, never. Madelyn (48:02) Right. Malik (48:04) looked at what other people were doing, we led audiences to places and then they enjoyed it. So I think when it comes to that, think when you look at the boom of true crime music sports, it's a lot of people and buyers just buying a lot of projects in that space and then audiences being like, wow, I really, really like this. And I think they should try that for other things. think, you know, some more independent and off the beaten path sort of stories people will engage with. think Madelyn (48:10) Mm. Malik (48:35) You look at something like My Octopus Teacher that came out years ago that was on Netflix. Who in the hell would have thought that audiences would have liked that, right? No one. No one at all. But they made it and they put it on a platform where it had marketing, some marketing and some access for people to watch it and then it blew up. And I think oftentimes stories like that get so overlooked because it doesn't have this like built in. Madelyn (48:43) Yeah. No. Malik (49:02) interest point that you can easily point to for audiences, but I think with that you're so often like you're expecting little from the audience almost. You're like, think to think people are only interested in pop culture, music and sports is I think a disservice to nonfiction. And I think it's a disservice to the audience that trusts people to put things on their television. So I think it would really just be like looking at underrepresented and under highlighted stories. Like I saw a project months ago from a filmmaker. ⁓ two filmmakers, the siblings, I won't mention who they are in case they don't want me to, but this like phenomenal story that they had and it was a no-brainer. And if I was in a position to like make it happen, I would, but as I was trying to elevate that project, I was told like, I don't know if anyone's gonna watch that. And I was like, what are you talking about? It's like an amazing story. So I really think just like, Madelyn (49:53) Ugh. Mm-hmm. Malik (49:58) trusting filmmakers like I've said a million times already and then just like expecting more from your audience because like how many, whether it's films or whatever have surprised people at how audiences have responded to them. K-pop demon hunters for example. Again. Madelyn (50:15) K-pop, Demon Hunters, Baby Reindeer, heated rivalry. mean, there's, you know, they're so. Malik (50:20) Yeah. Who the hell would have thought? And these are all stories that like... weren't, I think K-Pop Demon Hunters maybe was made in America, I don't know. But these are all stories that like traditionally an American buyer, an American audience would have been thought as like, no, they won't, Squid Games too, right? they will not like this or ⁓ the Hulu show about the samurais. It's a lot of times people being like, Shogun, yeah, I don't know if this will make sense. But in reality, it's like, if you build it, they will come. And I think you have to trust in your audiences and trust in getting it out to the right people. Madelyn (50:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. Shogun. Malik (50:55) that ultimately things will happen and I think if we take that approach and nonfiction and expand what we think is an entertaining documentary or you know docu-series for audiences I think we'd be really surprised and you know a lot of times people think you know nonfiction is sort of in a lull or in a decline because a lot of people are losing their jobs, me, myself, and some friends. And I think it's because people aren't trying to sell different and nuanced stories. They're trying to sell the same thing that everyone else is selling. So no one's really trying to separate themselves in the marketplace. Madelyn (51:33) It's a great point. It's the same, same, but different, you know? And it's like all the risk aversion is just leading to this like very homogenous, you know, as producers were nervous as exactly, I hope that we can get through whatever it is. I kind of feel it to be honest, but I feel like it's coming, but I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly. Malik (51:40) Yes. Yeah, I'm definitely optimistic about the future of nonfiction and the way things will go. I know there are many people in our space who are rather not optimistic about it and often talk ill of the space and, you know, whatever to them. But yeah, I'm extremely optimistic about where Madelyn (51:58) Mm-hmm. Malik (52:13) nonfiction will go and I think audiences continually connect with it and connect with stories, but it's really, yeah, you gotta trust them to, you gotta trust yourself to trust audiences to sort of like really connect with something and not spoon feed them the same thing. Like, for example, I love McDonald's. If I ate it every day, I'd get tired of it and I'd die. So it's like, we should do that with the content we're offering people. We shouldn't just keep feeding them. Madelyn (52:27) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Malik (52:40) a true crime doc once a week, a sports doc every other day. It's like, let's give them a bit more variation. know, like, where's the broccoli? Where's the peas? Where are the vegetables? Where are the other things that aren't the main course, but also can help elevate a plate? Madelyn (52:51) Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. I love that analogy. ⁓ Okay, a couple of questions before we go that are just fun for me. What's the most surprising or shocking archival that you've ever come across? And if you need to mention LivePD here, I know that doesn't count, but if you have to mention LivePD here, we can. Malik (53:13) Well, most shocking were things said and done that never made air. If anyone's listening, actually, I will say this. Go look up live PD deleted footage. There's a New York Times article from 2020. Just want to say that is interesting because yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you don't know about this story, it's actually crazy. It's the reason why live PD is now called patrol. Madelyn (53:31) Okay. I don't know about this story and we talked about the articles before. Malik (53:41) something in a zone a completely different network. ⁓ The most interesting archive I think I've ever come across and not me finding it but has been presented to me was a couple of years ago. I was approached about doing a Destiny's Child documentary and it was coming to us from Madelyn (53:42) Okay. Okay, to you. Malik (54:02) a phenomenal filmmaker and a production company that unfortunately no longer does nonfiction. ⁓ And they had access and they were collaborating with Beyonce's father, Matthew Knowles on it. And at this time I worked at Paramount Plus and MTV. And obviously it's MTV. We had archive of Destiny's Shouts. So we went through and it was just like realizing and the film was going to be completely archival. There was not going to be really a talking head interview in it even Madelyn (54:22) Right. Malik (54:32) and I know like some buyers requested that, but that was something that like you really saw this group of women who are now, mean, Beyonce and ⁓ Kelly Rowland, not so much Michelle and LaToya, but who are like essentially the biggest artists in the world right now from, know, adultness on through becoming, you know, women of their own. It was some of the best archive I had seen both on the... ⁓ Madelyn (54:49) Yeah. Malik (54:59) MTV side and then a couple of things I got to see through the production company that was bringing it to us but it's a project that still hasn't come out and I'm just like whoever makes it it will be the hottest thing in the world. Madelyn (55:12) imagine. I mean, I can because I watched it as a viewer as an impressionable young woman, but I can't imagine coming up in that particular era as like three young women in entertainment. It was like particularly kind of volatile and yet they still are what they are. I know we got to wrap. Malik (55:30) Yeah. Madelyn (55:32) So I'll ask you one more question. ⁓ What is an artist or music movement or I don't know, I'll say athlete that you'd like you drop everything and produce it tomorrow. Malik (55:42) Ooh, I think if Odd Future wanted to do something, I would immediately, I would move out of my home ⁓ to work with them. ⁓ I think Destiny's Child, like I mentioned. ⁓ Bill Withers, I feel like he's a really interesting. Madelyn (55:59) you Malik (56:01) artist that sort of gets overlooked at times, And another one is the Washington wives story. It's the story of like the women who were essentially a bunch of women in the like. I think it was the 80s or 90s, were married to a bunch of senators and they were upset with the explicit nature of music. So they created something called the Filthy 15 that like flagged artists like Cyndi Lauper, Twisted Sister, Dee Snider, Prince, Madonna, and they essentially like went and attacked. It's sort of like the inverse of As We Speak, but they went in and sort of attacked. music for its explicit nature because they didn't think their kids should be listening to it. And it was a group of just like, know, Al Gore's wife was a part of it, which is sort of crazy thinking of like how liberal Al Gore is. But it's the reason why the explicit warning label exists on CDs. It's all because of these women. And it's a story that like hasn't been told. And I'm just like, when someone does it, I believe there's actually a Madelyn (57:00) Right. Interesting. Malik (57:15) Twisted Sister coming out, which made touch on it. But I really want to just like dive into like these women and why they did it and everything. Madelyn (57:24) That's so interesting. Yes, you mentioned Odd Future as I look at my Tyler the Creator poster. ⁓ I hope that that happens for you and I'm crossing on my fingers for you. Thank you so much for coming on. This was so wonderful. Thanks for sharing all your stories, your insights, your learnings, and really excited for whatever you have coming up and wish you all the best. Malik (57:45) Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. really enjoyed this. Madelyn (57:48) Thanks Malik. Madelyn (57:53) Such a good conversation with Malik. Thank you so much for listening. As always, please don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, review, share all the things, and please follow us on Instagram at Unscripted Files Pod. I got a lot of good DMs and conversations, especially regarding our AI episode. So please know I'm always up for the conversation and always reach out to me. We'll be back Monday with our Unscripted Industry News with Emily Wilson, giving us all the top headlines in the industry and then back. next Friday with a full interview with another creative in the industry. Thanks so much for listening. See you next time.