00:00.38 James Welcome back everyone to Merge Conflict, your weekly developer podcast. It was free ice cream cone day at Ben and Jerry's today, but this was recorded last week. So if you're listening now, Frank, it's already gone. 00:09.93 Frank Oh. Hi, James. You always tell me, you told me about the burger deal like days late and the world. we would record a whole episode on the burger deal. And now you're not telling me about the ice cream deal. 00:21.18 Frank It's not like I have access to Ben and Jerry's, but you know, could have, could have gone off island. 00:25.82 James Could have made the voyage off island to get the free one scoop ice cream cone. Heather and I did make the voyage to the Ben and Jerry's, which is very close to the house. 00:34.34 Frank Ooh. 00:34.42 James So relatively, well, relatively, like we just like a two minute drive and we get a little scoop and there's a big line. 00:38.48 Frank Okay. 00:39.82 James And I was like, I got it. 00:40.66 Frank Yeah. 00:40.78 James I got a cone, a little cone, a little scoop. It was very cute. A non-dairy ice cream. It was very good. And it's free. I'll take it and then they're like, thank you for your business. And I was like, we have never come here, but I'm glad we did for the free ice cream. 00:51.77 Frank And you never will again? Just next year when it's free Tiny Cone Day again? 00:56.96 James I wouldn't say, I mean, I'm i'm more of like a gelato person if I'm going to get ice cream. But then additionally, i mostly get like low carb keto ice cream if I am going to get it in my opinion. 01:03.61 Frank fancy. 01:10.66 James don't know. 01:12.09 Frank I love ice cream, but I haven't had it in years. It's one of those things I just don't allow myself to have. But if someone just jammed like some frozen yogurt in my face, I'd probably swallow it. I probably came out wrong. 01:26.38 James Here's the ice cream. Get it get it down. All right. 01:28.28 Frank you 01:28.79 James um We missed our lightning topics episode last week. 01:32.79 Frank Oh, how embarrassing. When neither of us can count? When was the last time you counted something? i You know, the truth is, i just don't look at our episode numbers. But i'm I'm terrible on the production side. 01:42.00 James Mm-mm. 01:44.28 Frank I blame you completely for that mistake. 01:47.14 James You're welcome. And i blame our listeners for not writing in and giving us more. No, just kidding. 01:54.15 Frank Stop it. Stop it. 01:54.89 James Blame all of you 01:55.19 Frank No, we love you. We love you all. 01:57.50 James No, no, no. I think it's been fun. We do get a lot of great listener feedback and questions. And usually what we do is we roll those up into a lightning topics or things that we don't think are really going to take like a half an hour or 45 minutes. 02:08.79 James And we pump out a lightning topics where we're trying to cover every topic, about six of them, usually in about five to six minutes each. And usually I pick three and Frank picks three. And we're going to see where this goes. Now, I do want to start off with we have quite a few, uh, 02:23.61 James topics around audio today. 02:25.87 Frank Ooh. 02:26.39 James And I first want to say how that, Frank, can you read can you read this for me? 02:26.71 Frank Okay. 02:30.11 James Can you read this? 02:31.83 Frank Well, my internet connection is terrible, so all I see is blocky blur, blocky blur. Was that Sony, though? Did I catch a Sony logo there somewhere? 02:41.72 Frank It is a Sony. 02:42.17 James you see it? 02:43.60 Frank No, I just see blue. But, um... 02:45.94 James says throw pro pro-fessional 02:48.02 Frank Sony good. 02:51.54 Frank Professional. 02:52.17 James headphones. 02:52.50 Frank I see. Is that French? 02:56.11 James Professionnel. ah Okay. Why are we talking about the headphones? Okay, so I have these Sony MDR 7506s, which I've had since February 1st, 2017. 03:09.34 James This Herrera headphones, nine years, on my ears, and I have even replaced the cuffs, the little cushion, cuffy things in here twice because, you know, they're on your head all day and they get little gross, right? 03:11.34 Frank Pretty good. 03:17.74 Frank Oh. 03:22.80 Frank They get gross. 03:23.18 James said Boom. And we were talking because I have this new Elgato XLR dock MK2, which has a bunch of new crazy built-in effects into the hardware. 03:36.25 James And it has direct monitoring finally, which I can't live without. 03:36.64 Frank Ooh. 03:39.77 James And it also has a high power mode. And I was like, on high power mode? when I hit that, I said it up. It says optimizes volume and clarity for high impedance headphones. 03:49.83 James And then I immediately asked Frank Kruger, what does that mean? And if it's talking about frequencies and impedances and volumes and probably things that are in iCircuit, then Frank is the person asked. 03:54.39 Frank but 04:00.31 Frank yeah 04:06.01 Frank Okay. Well, I have to put a little disclaimer. Although I'm an electrical engineer, I'm not an audiophile. I don't keep up with the biz and the trends and the what's normal and what's not normal. i can define the terms and I can tell you what I think. And I guess we can just start there. So impedance is a fancy word for resistance, which is a fancy word for resistance. how much current you get when you apply voltage to something. Impedance is more sophisticated. Please please email James. it It has everything to do with frequencies. um It has to do with capacitance and inductance. So you've you've heard of a resistor. 04:48.82 Frank You've heard of a capacitor. 04:49.05 James Yes. 04:51.56 James It capacits. 04:51.82 Frank you've You've heard of an inductor, maybe? 04:55.55 James It inducts. 04:56.90 Frank It index, yeah. It's often used in motors. it Turns out you can combine all those things into one thing called impedance. Doesn't matter. But it's so it's a nice shorthand that electrical engineers use. We like to simplify the world into all sine waves and resistance. And to do resistance with sine waves, we call it impedance. It's nothing. It's a simplification for a world when we didn't have computers. 05:21.91 Frank Buy high circuit. You won't have to deal with any this. But the nuts and the bolts of it are um all speakers, including the little speaker in your headphones, um have kind of a native resistance to them. 05:36.52 Frank Technically an impedance, who cares? um And the manufacturer is kind of, it's up to the manufacturer to say how much resistance that speaker is going to have. If you've ever put analog speakers on a stereo, often on the back of the stereo, it would say, like, please put 45-ohm speakers on here. Please put 65-ohm speakers on here. The electronics for the thing producing the analog audio It has to put a voltage out on that line. It doesn't know what range of voltages to put out there unless it knows, OK, the thing I'm going to pump power to is, let's say, 60 ohms. And therefore, I know if I put three volts on it, then it knows I'm not going to do the math, but it's going to get 2-ish amps across the thing. And that can translate to power and all that kind of stuff. 06:26.62 Frank What it really means in a practical sense, though, is when you buy something that produces audio and you have something that projects that audio, you really want to match the impedances for what they were designed for so that the the thing generating the audio is outputting the right voltages for the thing broadcasting that audio, turning that electricity into sound waves. 06:48.89 Frank So. 06:49.29 James That's pretty cool. Yeah. 06:50.68 Frank Yeah, so when someone says high impedance, that just means it's it's not standard. Like, you know, most consumer electronics, you go to the store, you buy some headphones, they don't, no one really knows what impedance headphones they're getting. That's because there's just roughly a standard out there, you know, most headphones. And this is where I'm just going to make up numbers. I'm sorry, everyone. I'm not an audiophile, like I said. 07:14.11 Frank But you know somewhere between the 40 to 60 to 70 ohms is usually what a speaker is sitting at. So there's just kind of a standard out there. And so when you go to the store and you buy some headphones, you don't have to think about it as long as it's you know vaguely within that range. 07:29.27 Frank The thing pumping audio to it, your Walkman, your 1980s Walkman, it's going to output the right voltages for it. So when they say high impedance, that means you're a weirdo. You're using something weird, James. 07:39.61 James ha 07:41.35 Frank And we we need weird voltages for your weird headphones. 07:45.90 James well luckily you don't these are 65 ohm so they're little bit higher as far as the other ones in the series there was like a 25 a 50 and a 65 but these are 65 so they're totally normal i don't need to turn it on it's totally good um yeah it's kind of crazy built in to they updated this so it actually has a bunch of um Like all hardware effects on the board. 08:04.46 James So I was like a low cut filter and expander compressor and equalizer like on on board, which is very nice. 08:05.39 Frank That's 08:10.77 James yeah. 08:12.79 Frank Yeah, doing that stuff in hardware is really nice because, um I mean, nowadays with digital computers, you can totally do that on the digital signal. But audiophiles love their analog. And, you know, there's there's definitely a coolness and in some literal ways a coolness to, like, how it shapes the audio. 08:32.25 Frank And you don't get the little, like, tiny little stair steps that audiophiles say they can hear, but you possibly cannot hear. There's absolutely no way you can hear that stuff. Sorry, every audiophile out there. But, you know, analog's cool and doing that stuff straight in hardware is super cool, though I have a feeling, James, they're still doing it digitally. Everyone still does this digitally and then they just have a little amplifier that converts that digital signal to an analog signal. 09:00.48 James I'll definitely have to look to see exactly what they're doing. Yeah, they do have some software effects, but then, you know, with software, you always get potentially some lag going on there as well. So, um, but yeah. 09:09.17 Frank And you don't want you don't want to do that ah high power out mode if you don't have high impedance stuff, because what you're doing then is jamming too much power through them, quickening how quickly you'll go deaf, because all our ears are a finite resource, and you can use them up for sure. 09:21.33 James Yeah. 09:25.61 Frank um And you'll just be um You'll be at the ed edge of what the speaker was designed output. So you'll start to get like the crackleys and the yeah the pops and the the bad sounds because you're just jamming too much power through. 09:41.56 James power yeah and it's the same too for your um microphone right so your microphone if it's a condenser mic you're going to need 09:41.72 Frank speaker is just an electromagnet, which is just an inductor. Yeah, 100%. 09:50.92 Frank Yeah. hundred percent 09:52.76 James some phantom power. This is a dynamic mic, so I don't need it. it's turned off automatically. This is my first dynamic mic that I have. 09:59.54 Frank Yeah. 10:00.91 James Yours is a condenser mic. So yours is on. 10:03.22 Frank Is it? 10:04.18 James Yes, definitely is. 10:04.63 Frank excuse I actually, it's funny that you mentioned that because I just bought the cutest, tiniest little microphones I've ever seen in my whole life. 10:05.93 James It definitely needs it to be powered. 10:13.75 Frank I'm doing a little embedded systems project. And I just bought the cutest little microphone. James, if I can get it out of the plastic bag. 10:23.99 James You got this. 10:25.08 Frank a Here it is. i don't even know how to show this. It is so tiny, itsy bitsy little guy. 10:30.49 James oh Oh, cute. Wow. 10:33.43 Frank And 10:33.83 James That's a microphone. 10:35.93 Frank it is a microphone and the analog to digital converter that convert and it actually does compression on it. 10:41.41 James Wow. 10:44.49 Frank So it'll generate not MP3, but maybe like AAC. I forget which codec it has built onto it. But there is a full analog to digital. the amplifier to step it down, then the analog to digital, some cleanup filter stuff, and then some compression filter stuff all on the tiniest little package ever. 11:02.84 Frank I love modern elect electronics. I bought like six of these for $10. 11:08.13 James That's crazy. 11:08.21 Frank It's just, the world is amazing. 11:08.56 James And if you're, if you're listening, Frank held up in his hand, basically something that was the size of a penny, a us penny or so, I would say about penny dime even, and, and it had a few little nuggets on it and, and a little green board and it was very cute blackboard, whatever it was. 11:15.53 Frank A dime, yeah, smaller. Yeah. 11:23.83 James And he has all this stuff on that is crazy. 11:24.82 Frank Yeah. 11:26.01 James I mean, there's like, yeah, everything can be compressed, compressed down nowadays. 11:28.09 Frank Yeah, I'm doing a little, making like a little AI agent and I needed a microphone and I just loved how tiny and small it was. 11:33.27 James Nice. 11:36.34 Frank Building my own dingus. 11:36.83 James We're, Did you just get that on Amazon? Where'd you get it from? Wow. 11:40.44 Frank Yeah, I just got it on Amazon. That's where you get all the cheap parts. I'll try to find it for you while we're chit-chatting. 11:47.32 James All right, well, let's go to another topic. I will, since you got the most that you describe all the new things there, let's talk about, ah The terminal, let's talk about CLIs and shells and all these good things. 11:58.48 James Actually, i'm going to start on the reverse of my list, I think, which is a new feature in the Copilot CLI. 11:59.02 Frank Okay. 12:02.14 Frank okay 12:05.46 James I believe it's also in Cloud Code as well. i'm not sure about Codex, but it is called Remote Sessions. 12:13.45 Frank Oh, can I just interrupt? I'm so happy if we're discussing this because I saw some tweets about it and the tweets just went right over my head. So this is another, ah good segment, my favorite segment, James explains modern AI stuff to Frank, because it's it's hilarious when this happens. 12:29.24 James Okay, imagine a world, Frank, where you're coding, you're at home coding on your machine, your Mac Mini, it's sitting there. 12:31.96 Frank Oh no, I'll try. It 12:36.75 Frank happens. 12:39.70 James like, hey, this is cute. You're off coding, you're in the the Copilot CLI, and you're like, I got to go to the store. I got to go get a coffee. I'm going to go watch TV. 12:53.66 Frank Yeah, it's on YouTube. 12:54.07 James Now, you can't you you can't just pick up that Mac mini and bring it with you. 13:02.30 Frank Yeah, you're right. yeah Now i'm I'm taking it as a challenge, but I get what you're saying. No, it's it's actually just buried in a bunch of old males, so I definitely can't do it. 13:12.82 James or Or for example, maybe you don't wanna bring your entire machine with you wherever you're going. right if you have a big laptop, of a big laptop i don't want to bring my entire machine. 13:18.31 Frank Yeah. 13:21.01 James What if you could carry on that session that you have or spin up a new session in your CLI and access it remotely on the go and have a full two-way conversation? 13:34.46 James Basically think of turning your CLI, your GitHub Copilot CLI into a remote agent that you could access anywhere, but that CLI is running on your machine, which means you have access to all the stuff on your machine. 13:34.80 Frank Oh. Oh. 13:47.90 James A second use case would be me. I have my little Mac mini here that I have on the side where I'm but building tiny clips and others like Swift and iOS Maui applications. 13:58.65 James You know what I need is all the build tools for iOS and Mac applications. But I spend 98% of my time on a Windows machine for work and personally, like, as well. 14:09.85 James And on my iPhone, wouldn't it be cool if I could be, like, at work, but just, like, basically remoting through, like, a ah remote terminal into it? 14:10.30 Frank Mm-hmm. Got that. 14:17.84 James Now, the question is, what does that remote terminal look like in a remote session? Well, it looks like a basically... 14:28.03 James GUI website that is showing you the terminal output and has an input button and you can change between modes or on your mobile phone, you can just see the entire session going, right? For all intents and purposes, like if you were to have booted up a a GitHub Copilot coding agent, you would get that session where you could steer and you could tell it stuff. 14:45.53 James You basically get that, but instead of it running in the GitHub Copilot cloud agent runtime, which would be like a Linux box somewhere in the clued, it is just connected to your machine remotely running and executing commands and doing back two way back and forth when it needs to prompt you. 14:45.65 Frank Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 15:03.64 Frank Love it. um This sounds like, okay, so so for the old Unix people out there, this is totally achievable. The old-fashioned way is you spin up an SSHD, Damon. 15:14.61 Frank ah You get a Tmux or a screens session going, and then you can do all this stuff anyway. But i love it when they integrate all this stuff. It's the anti-Unix philosophy of not small tools working together. 15:27.81 Frank How about one tool that does everything, like an integrated development environment? 15:29.85 James Yeah. 15:31.27 Frank We'll just call it that. No, it's good. um Because that scenario actually happens to me a lot. Because I find with a lot these AIs, there's a lot of five to 10 minute down times as it thinks in a loop and then rethinks in a loop. And it has to keep thinking in a loop. And even when you start to do multitasking, It's not unreasonable to get like three, four of these things going in loops and then you're still staring at a progress bar and it's time to go watch TV. I'm just kidding. 16:02.09 Frank No, I'm not kidding. So I actually, I kind of dig this feature. I will check it out. You you kind of, I'm kind of excited for the iPhone part. Because I feel like that's a feature that a lot of these tools are neglecting is the mobile story. 16:12.24 James Yeah. 16:18.68 Frank Where like you know since these things are just taking prompts and doing something and I'm watching progress bars, the phone's an ideal place to manage all that. And I find it kind of hilarious how few of these IDEs actually have good mobile solutions. 16:28.35 James Yeah. 16:33.21 Frank So I'll actually take in a special look and see how it handles that scenario. And isn't it very inception-y that it's a console app running in a web app? 16:38.30 James Yeah, take a look. 16:42.81 James Exactly. 16:43.15 Frank Breaks heart. 16:44.34 James So the cool part today is in public preview just came out this week or last week or when you listen to this podcast. I don't know when exactly it's GA, but you can ah get access to in the CLI, say slash remote, or you can do copilot dash dash remote and it would just start a session. You get a QR code as well. that You could scan from your phone. 17:01.50 James ah The cool part is it's available in the web directly. so you could open that website on your mobile phone. Now it is going to be available inside of the GitHub mobile app, which I think like you said is like the most ideal place. 17:13.56 James You can test it out today, but you need to be on the test flight build, which you can just download the test flight build with the GitHub app and get it. 17:17.67 Frank Mm-hmm. 17:19.96 James And what's really neat about that to what you're saying is that that really opens up the world because then, you know, you can do stuff on the GitHub mobile site, but the the web, the mobile app is really super optimized. 17:33.96 James it's like a native app. You're going able to do everything in there, merge, see code, jump around, do all that stuff. And and that's going to really powerful coding environment that you have to be able to like take things over the the hurdle and and things like that. 17:47.42 James So I'm really excited for that because I agree with you. Today, I'm already going into the mobile app, spinning off new tasks to the cloud agent, but now I just want to be able to do these things. 17:53.62 Frank Yeah. 17:56.30 James Now, of course, the missing piece is can you build and then run my app and then can I like you know see it running on my desktop? That'd be cool too, but one day. 18:05.14 Frank Well, I think the desktop is an important place because all these cloud agents, they're very cool and I love them for the multitasking or whatever, multi-whatevering, multi-agenting. But um they're all stuck in these Linux environments. 18:19.45 Frank And I'm a Mac developer and there's no access to Xcode and the Swift compilers or anything like, especially in the cloud, you're paying 10x for a Mac operating system, but they don't even offer it. So who cares? um So i I love cloud agents, but I do find them very limiting because they just, they don't have the correct development environment for me. And it's frustrating. So I like the idea that this kind of turns my local development environment into something remotey. So I hope that they're taking advantage of that. And I feel like the world is going towards some bad, dark directions where like we're starting to sandbox the environments, the dev environments. And those sandbox environments don't have access to all the tooling I have installed on my machine. And I'm getting nervous about this future where we're not taking an advantage of my local resources. 19:08.41 Frank And so this this seems like, ah for me, a step in the correct direction. 19:08.56 James Yeah. 19:12.82 James Yeah, I like it a lot just for the fact, like we were talking about is I might still use a lot of the cloud agents even on my Mac apps. But what I want to end up having to do is 19:19.98 Frank Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 19:22.81 James like do all those so I can like parallelize it. And then I'll go to my CLI where I have a remote session and connected it to my Mac and I'll say, Hey, this PR was just open. Do a code review, do build, x you know, build, do all the test verification, bingo bango. Right. Cause I often see that where I'm spinning up the cloud agents cause it's just very convenient, pull it down. And then like the build fails or i' like, oh wait, oh, and like, and you know it can figure out it, it can figure it out, but it it's a way better to just actually run the build on the local machine. 19:50.46 James Oh, it's so, all right. 19:50.78 Frank Yeah. well's it 19:52.47 James Um, all right. 19:53.27 Frank yeah 19:54.69 James Oh, go ahead. 19:55.86 Frank Oh, no, no. i was just It just gets into that environment because you know there's the co-pilot setup steps. 19:59.79 James Yeah. 20:01.50 Frank And like it's it's hard to build up that ideal environment. 20:02.33 James Yeah. 20:04.42 Frank And I don't do that for every single one of my projects. Whereas my dev machine, it's set up. It's ready to go. Just use it. 20:10.14 James It's good to go. Yeah. Just use it. 20:11.44 Frank Yeah. 20:11.80 James You know, it's good to go. All right. Let's get back to music. What else are you doing on your iPhone? 20:14.90 Frank Ooh. Well, it's music adjacent, James. 20:19.16 James Hmm. 20:19.99 Frank Can I put a scenario in front of you? I don't even know where to begin with this. 20:22.56 James You can. can 20:24.25 Frank But let me say, my problem is I have an iPhone. And I also do a lot of embedded systems programming where I want to talk to other hardware than the iPhone. I have sensors. 20:38.10 Frank Like silly little microphones I buy on Amazon and motors and all sorts of other weird stuff. And I like doing embedded systems development. So you have a little microcontroller and it's talking to little pieces of hardware and all that. But a real problem with the iPhone is there is no way for the iPhone to physically connect to another computer and talk to it. 21:01.50 Frank Have you ever really thought about it? Like, you remember the old days where people made like credit card scanners for the iPhones for doing like POS systems, and they plugged into the audio jack because that was the only way to really add hardware to your iPhone. 21:09.48 James Yeah. Mm hmm. 21:19.45 Frank um and then they took away the audio jack so you can't even do it that way and that was an analog interface you know it's not even a digital interface so you have this brilliant piece of hardware this brilliant computer they cannot talk to any other computers without using wi-fi obviously wi-fi is out there bluetooth is out there you can talk digitally but anyone who's at been in a um an em noisy environment knows just how flaky or if you have something that's under acceleration like a robot wi-fi doesn't work well um this doesn't so i've always been a little bit sad that i can never actually add hardware to my iphone but then europe came and europe made apple put usbc connectors on the iphone 22:06.42 Frank And then Apple, with their good willingness, their their generosity toward all of humanity, decided to not just make it a USB-C port, but make it a functioning USB-C port where you could actually plug in a mouse and a keyboard. 22:06.48 James That's correct. 22:19.03 James Hmm. 22:21.74 Frank I'm like, oh, isn't that interesting? So we can actually add some hardware to this device, but it's a mouse and a keyboard. Those those don't really inspire me as an app developer. 22:32.18 Frank But it got me thinking one day, I'm like, what other hardware does this USB-C port support? Don't say that 10 times quickly. And all with this goal of I wanted to be able to talk to other hardware with it. 22:47.90 Frank And I'm having a little chat with Copilot. 22:48.03 James Yeah. 22:50.66 Frank Copilot and I were just hanging out at the beach, having our talking computers as we do. And I'm like, hey, what other protocols do you think works with the USB-C connector on these iPhones? And it's like, well, probably not this, probably not that, probably not this. And it's like, but you know what does work is MIDI. 23:07.95 Frank Do you remember MIDI, James? 23:09.58 James Oh dear, yeah. yeah Mm-hmm. 23:11.21 Frank MIDI is the protocol that like synthesizers talk and drum kits talk and all that. Anyone in music knows MIDI. They probably hate MIDI. 23:19.06 James Hence, hence, hence my, you know, understanding like a lot of the Korg machines and things like this. 23:19.83 Frank okay 23:24.78 James I was thinking about that. 23:25.48 Frank Yeah. 23:26.46 James and in fact, I remember like my 3ds, which actually have one here. There was a Korg like a synthesizer drumbeat machine where you could put in different things. 23:34.10 Frank Yeah. 23:34.96 James Yeah. Super cool. 23:35.92 Frank Sweet. Sweet. Yeah. What is it? Musical instrument digital interface? Something like that? It's the digital interface part that I'm a little bit interested in. 23:42.04 James Yeah. 23:45.10 Frank Because I know a bit about the MIDI spec. The MIDI spec is not a spec. It's really just a transport protocol. It's like, here's the byte format for how to send data over a wire. And here's what's important. 23:56.74 Frank Bidirectionally. It can send data in both directions. 23:58.21 James Ooh, that's cool. 24:00.47 Frank I'm like, what are the chances that Apple would actually support me just building a piece of hardware, having it talk MIDI, and then being able to plug it into my phone? And James, I kid you not, it works. 24:15.51 James Really? 24:15.77 Frank I can actually buy like a little embedded computer with a USB port on it. 24:15.97 James Wow. 24:21.27 Frank I can program that USB port to talk the MIDI protocol, which is like from the 70s or something it's the most trivial simple protocol in the whole world no big deal and there's a midi over usb standard if you implement the midi over usb standard and you plug the little device into the little phone james all a sudden i have a digital interface that the phone can talk to any hardware basically send any data all within the midi spec but who cares it's fine and all of a sudden i have a high speed digital interface to external hardware from my phone that does not require any apple lawyers if anyone's ever tried to develop actual hardware for the phone of course you can do it you could always do it but you had to have lawyers and you had to have the hardware development kit and it was specifically you go to the apple website for this and they're just like don't don't bother if you're just a normie don't bother if you're just a developer you can't handle this but you can handle this jay like there's core midi built into the os writing a midi client for an embedded piece of hardware is trivial as long as that hardware has a usb port on it like a real hardware usb port not some fake garbage serial thing 25:32.44 James Yeah. Oh. Hmm. 25:34.84 Frank um And you put those two together and all a sudden i have a digital interface to my phone that doesn't require Wi-Fi, doesn't require any wireless protocols. It's a fast, reliable, basically zero latency. It's over a wire digital call. And I haven't been so excited for a long time. 25:55.35 Frank I love it because any app can use it. nothing Nothing special required. Isn't that cool? 26:00.76 James Interesting. okay So name, it's it's a name like a use case now in which you could use this. So you can develop like an app that then does some stuff and then send some stuff to this other thing. 26:10.31 Frank Yeah. 26:14.04 Frank Yeah. So let's say, hypothetically, someone developed a lawnmower that is able to move about their property. And let's say, hypothetically, they want to run some advanced neural networks on it to do some digital image recognition because Apple's got some amazing neural processors on the phone and some beautiful cameras and some localization stuff. 26:31.98 James true yeah slap a phone on the lawnmower 26:35.13 Frank So the scenario I'm going for is the iphone is the iPhone is the brains, the eyes, the everything. And the embedded stuff is the the low level motor controls, reading sensor data. 26:47.97 James yeah that's cool that's cool 26:48.93 Frank And you create this bi-directional channel between the robot and the smart thing. So now I can just plug my phone in and my phone can take control of that robotic core. ah There's a million other scenarios like interfacing any hardware to the phone is now trivial. That's the scenario I'm going to use, though, is to make the phone control actual robots. 27:12.14 James That's cool. That's cool. 27:13.34 Frank It is. 27:14.20 James Yeah. 27:14.51 Frank It's super cool. And yes, I know you can do it over Wi-Fi. 27:15.90 James Super cool. 27:17.51 Frank I get it. But Wi-Fi is flaky. Trust me. 27:19.48 James Yeah. 27:19.87 Frank Especially when you have something rotating a giant cutting blade. 27:20.32 James don't want to use Wi-Fi. 27:23.74 James No, it's like... 27:23.77 Frank it's It's scary. 27:24.92 James i got I got one of the smart locks, the Eufy locks or whatever, and like I had it connected. It's it's only 2.4 gigahertz, so I connected it to my strictly IoT 2.4 gigahertz band, and it was like super flaky, like what's something with the range, the signal. 27:38.14 Frank Yeah. 27:40.25 James The batteries died really quick. I was like, all right, fine. 27:42.11 Frank Yeah. 27:43.10 James Connect to the combined 5 and 2.4 gigs what and because it's stronger boosted or whatever, and now it's fine. 27:46.30 Frank Yeah. Right. Yeah. 27:50.05 James It doesn't even make any sense. 27:50.49 Frank right 27:51.07 James the The wifi router is right here and the door is right there. It's just like, dude, it's like, come on. 27:57.43 Frank And your door is not accelerating up and down hills and going 0 to 20 in 3 seconds. 28:01.59 James No, no. 28:03.59 Frank like It's in a very stable Wi-Fi environment. All the wireless protocols have acceleration problems. 28:07.16 James Yes. 28:09.95 Frank Anytime you accelerate the object, the transmitter or the receiver, you'll get breaks in the communication. 28:11.37 James Yeah. Yeah. 28:15.69 Frank And for dangerous things, that's not good. 28:15.96 James I mean, just walk around. just walk around your house and you'll see like up and down this and that as you're like, guys it worked, that foot didn't work as well. 28:20.25 Frank Yeah. 28:23.46 Frank Dropping packets left and right. Yeah. 28:25.08 James Yeah. um 28:26.07 Frank So this this really excites me because I can actually connect hardware that I love building to iPhone apps that I love building. 28:27.42 James Yeah. 28:32.35 Frank So my two favorite worlds can talk to each other efficiently and reliably now. 28:37.27 James Wow. Well, let's talk about some other hardware, but in this world, the hardware that's gone missing. 28:38.51 Frank Yeah. 28:42.07 James Frank, at the same time, we're gonna take our left wrists We're gonna put it on camera. So you're gonna like punch up. 28:49.05 Frank Oh, this is going to be embarrassing. 28:49.66 James Ready? 28:51.49 Frank Okay. 28:52.62 James All righty. 28:52.89 Frank Yep. Ready, James. Ready. 28:53.78 James Three, two, one. 28:58.24 James Well, you got nothing on your wrist either. 28:58.63 Frank It's empty. 28:59.96 James oh my gosh. 29:00.47 Frank Nope. 29:01.62 James Is there something on your right wrist? Oh my gosh. 29:04.41 Frank Nope. 29:04.60 James Wow. Okay. Well, wow. Crazy. Interesting. Well, what well 29:08.12 Frank I know what you're going to say, though. Yeah. That's why I didn't want to do it. 29:11.42 James very fascinating. 29:11.74 Frank We are... 29:12.18 James Well, go ahead. 29:13.54 Frank Neither of us is wearing jewelry. 29:15.19 James So if, if you were, if you're listening, Frank and I both held up our wrists at the same time and there was nothing on it. 29:15.46 Frank Neither of us have cuffs on. We are very plain men. 29:26.18 James There's no jewelry, no accessories, and specifically no Apple watches. Now, I don't know what's going on in your world. Frank Krueger maybe said Apple watch fell into the bottom of the lake, but, um, Heather and I decided to make a conscious decision about a month ago, um encouraged by a few other, other friends to drop our Apple watches. 29:39.77 Frank Too close. 29:47.88 James In fact, my Apple watch is now a $55 Apple gift card because I've traded in and I've sent it off as gone all the way into the Apple store return return to sender. 29:52.95 Frank Oh, well wow, you really dropped it. You dropped it all the way into the Apple store. Oh, darn. This is a sensitive topic for me. So I want to hear your reasons for dropping it. But I'll say my reasons are I just don't find much utility in the watch when I'm just sitting around home. 30:13.72 Frank um For me, the watch becomes mostly a burden because all it's doing is notifying me. and I hate notifications. Anyone who's ever tried to contact me knows that I hate notifications and I turn them off very ruthlessly. um i just don't get it. I i just i get the same amount of spam as everyone else, but I seem to be more sensitive to it. I just can't stand any form of notification. And if I want to know the time, I just look out a window. like It's fine. every Every screen I look at has a clock on it now. 30:46.17 Frank um So I still use the watch when I travel because that's the time where I don't really want to pull my phone out of my pocket all the time, but I just want to check something super quick. I do find a small amount of utility in the watch, but I find overall Apple has just dumbed it down to such a level that it's just an annoyance device for me most of it. 31:07.82 Frank That's my excuse for not having it on my wrist. 31:10.94 James pretty good. it's it's Heather and I both actively basically turn off as many notifications as we can. Right. You know, like you can really not mirror anything and not really get anything, almost anything you're going to get stuff. 31:24.09 Frank But they find a new notification. Every software update, they find some other way to annoy you with some Apple ad. 31:29.66 James It's true. 31:30.58 Frank Hey, a new episode of Severance is out. I don't care, Apple. 31:36.09 James ah You should care, but yes, I hear you. 31:37.75 Frank Okay. Okay. 31:38.77 James Yes. ah No, I think for us, I pretty much don't really use the watch faces for anything. ah Like i have like the weather, i had the weather on there. Mostly what Heather and I were using the watches for were just tracking fitnesses and workouts. 31:54.65 Frank All right. 31:54.98 James Yeah. 31:55.61 Frank Fair. 31:55.64 James So we would close our rings and we didn't really use the watch for anything else. We never used any of the apps on it. We never really use any of the notifications on it. Maybe the tides, which again could just be on my phone because it should have the tides, not like it's mystery science theater over here. 32:07.61 Frank Tides are cool. I know. I'm sure there's a million widget apps out there for you. 32:13.37 James Yeah, we never used any of the other things on the way we use the, we never really use the walkie talkie feature. We never really use any of the other stuff. 32:21.31 Frank That never works. 32:22.64 James That never works. Exactly. And he never notifies the other person because they have the notifications off. So it's like this chicken and egg. So I decided like, is this bringing value and joy in my life? Because what we ended up finding was, are we artificially just being like, okay, like every time we go a walk, was like, start your watches. Okay. And your watches, like make sure you stand up. Like I'm already standing. I'm already doing stuff. I'm already working out. already doing these things. 32:44.73 James is it actually giving me that extra motivation ah to do more? 32:48.10 Frank All right. 32:49.26 James And I think the answer is pretty much no, because we are already walking Millie every single day. I'm already riding my bike almost every single day. I'm going to do those things anyways, whether I have the watch on or not. 32:59.96 James So I did an experiment for ah few days and i said, I'm just going to take it off. And Heather's took hers off for a week or two. um And I was like, cool, I'm going to i'm just gonna send it in got rid of it boom. 33:13.10 James One less thing to charge, one less charger to bring, bingo bango, and it's gone. 33:15.35 Frank ah yeah fair enough 33:18.10 James i never watched i never wore watches before this. I will say, after a month, I do am now trying to look for the time on my watch. So I don't know if I'll get another watch or not, but you know, my phone is with me at all times. 33:28.63 Frank oh interesting no no 33:32.64 James So there are a few occasions where I'm like, ah but I'm not finding myself, Oh, how many calories have I burned today? Oh, how many times have I stood today? Oh, how many times? And that's what I was, it was artificially inflating those numbers of like importance to me where I'm already doing those things. 33:46.59 James So, yeah. 33:49.06 Frank I'm going to call that healthy. I don't know. For me, I find why going for a walk or a jog is a nice break from technology. So I am a aware i still like to do, like run what do I use, RunKeeper? Is an app? Yeah, I think I use RunKeeper. um And that's like force of habit. And I just like that because, you know, I'm dying out there. I want something to regard my exertions. But um' it's funny, I never did the health tracking on the watch because it wouldn't sync properly with the phone and that as an engine drove me nuts. The way the phone, you start an activity on the watch and it wouldn't start the activity on the phone. And I'm just, it was so maddening that I i stopped wearing it just because of that bug. i was like, I can't handle that bug. But I'm going to say overall, I'm just disappointed that Apple nerfed that device completely by never allowing developers to write watch faces for it. I know we can put tiny little um complication rectangles on the watch faces, but they don't update very well. They update sporadically. 34:57.40 Frank You can't animate anything. I find Apple's watch faces overall to just be ugly. um've I've tried them all. I've been using the watch since pre-beta. I was invited to... Apple to in one infinite loop to go program watches before they were even released. um Just it's one of those devices that just never worked for me. So I think I get where you're coming from. And sadly, I got to that point about five or 10 years ago. 35:25.88 James Yeah. And I think the one missing important fact that I'm now don't have on my body is other sort of emergency features of the Apple watch, such as like heart, like heart attack sensing. 35:44.82 James And i think that's what like one of them, because of your heart rate goes and spikes up. 35:46.53 Frank I get it. 35:49.99 Frank But the false positives, there's just so many false positives. 35:49.97 James There's also, 35:52.94 Frank If I was having a heart attack, I'd be like, well, it's probably just a false positive because that's what it does. 35:56.38 James Yeah, guess. I mean, it'd be good to know. Fall detection. It'd be, you know, fall detection. If I'm on a bike, I fall, it calls Heather. 36:01.11 Frank I know when I fell, James. Okay. 36:03.06 James you know, I mean, I do know if I fall. So, but i never I've never tested those features or had to, fingers crossed, knock on wood, right? 36:05.45 Frank Trust me, I know when I fall. Yeah. 36:10.97 Frank Yeah. 36:11.54 James So I do feel like there's all these other like features of emergency features that could be nice. But then if my phone's on me, it should probably also know too, like in general, if I'm doing some fall or crash detection. 36:21.78 James Yeah. 36:22.30 Frank And I'm being a little facetious. Like I said, I do wear the watch when I go to the mainland because the mainland is a dangerous, scary place and I need all the protections I can get. So I still put the watch on in those times. 36:30.46 James There you go. 36:33.38 Frank But when I'm around the house, I just don't get any benefit from it. 36:37.78 James Yeah. And we always have, we always bought like the intro level one. So we bought the series three originally and then the SE two. it's like, we're ever buying like the, the the upgraded ones. 36:48.47 James So I think it was a good experiment. It several years that we had them and and traded them in and got value back from them. 36:51.04 Frank Mm-hmm. 36:53.99 James So I'm interested if other people, I know a few other people in my life who's have finally dropped the watch cause they're not like getting the extra value out of it. And And it's like one more thing to worry about all the time. So interesting what happens down the road with these watches. But a lot of people have them. 37:07.81 Frank Yeah. 37:07.88 James That's for sure. 37:08.95 Frank And I should say, I'm not even against wearables. I think that there is a market for wearables somewhere. I think watch just wasn't, it for me, and it hasn't been the right thing. 37:14.13 James Mm-hmm. 37:18.13 Frank And for me, it's not notifications. I don't want notifications. If if there's going to be a wearable that I actually wear all the time, it's got to not have notifications, specifically not have notifications on it. 37:30.01 James Yeah, I think so. um All right, we got a few minutes before to dinner. 37:32.60 Frank Yeah. 37:35.18 James Let's think about back to the CLI. I'm going to talk about Windows Terminal a little bit here, Frank. 37:38.72 Frank Oh. 37:40.41 James um 37:42.20 Frank Is that? 37:42.20 James You know, Terminal runs shells and then the shells run commands. 37:48.89 Frank DOS. 37:50.01 James seal 37:50.34 Frank DOS, command.exe. Yeah, I remember DOS. 37:52.31 James Command.exe. Yeah. 37:53.38 Frank C colon backslash batch basic. 37:53.97 James Yeah. 37:57.43 Frank I remember. are you did they advance between DOS 5? What version of DOS are they up to? 38:02.94 James No, no, the windows terminal, you know, you have terminal on Mac on windows. You also have terminals on the windows terminal. 38:10.12 Frank It's called command.exe. 38:10.14 James Um, 38:11.88 Frank It's a subsystem. 38:13.34 James um, no, not CMD. That is the command, um, prompt. 38:18.94 Frank Terminal. 38:20.21 James the 38:20.54 Frank It's a whole subsystem. That's how fancy it is. I know. 38:22.97 James It is, but 38:23.38 Frank So they they've adopted the Unix philosophy. They've added terminals since command.exe. But command.exe is a classic terminal properly on the operating system. 38:29.24 James that is correct. 38:33.46 Frank And the reason it's always been in a janky window is because it's not actually running Win32. It's actually a full different subsystem. It's a weird, weird cool feature of Windows, in fact. 38:42.94 James Now you can run CMD from inside the Windows terminal as well. 38:48.44 Frank just to get the whole inception thing. I'm sure you can put that in a web page and then get it onto your phone. 38:51.13 James Correct. 38:54.45 James Well, the Windows terminal, imagine if like the Mac terminal was amazing. And then you'd have windows terminal and be on windows because basically, you know, Kayla worked on windows terminal as on my team now. 39:00.83 Frank Yeah, stop it. Right. 39:09.66 James And we did a live stream, which was Kayla showing me how awesome the windows terminal is and how I can make my windows terminal better because I'm not a terminal person. I'm not a CLI person. i'm not a shell person. 39:20.69 James Now he's a lot of power shell as my default, but there's all sorts of stuff. Like I can have him boon to on there. I can have a, you know, CMD. I can have a you know cloud shell, I can have all these things. What's really powerful about the Windows terminal is that there is really advanced settings and sort of default um interaction models, appearance models, color schemes, a tab, there's like a whole tab menu, there's extensions, and then there's profile. 39:46.65 Frank yeah 39:47.81 James So every different shell that you have is a profile. So you have power, like Windows PowerShell, command prompt, 39:54.19 Frank Me. 39:55.19 James PowerShell itself, maybe the developer command prompt, ah the Visual Studio debug console, and Boon 2. um And then you can create these profiles though that launch certain things and then run commands. So I have a new GitHub Copilot profile that immediately launches into GitHub Copilot CLI using PowerShell automatically for me. So that'll load up my own my posh. 40:18.26 James Or for example, I might have a GitHub copilot that launches, but then launches into a specific folder of one of my projects that I'm working on. Like you might have an iCircuit profile, but it's all cascading um styles and settings basically. 40:34.49 James So you can have a default, which is like, I want everything to use this color theme. I want everything to use these fonts, this font size, this weight, these glyphs, all these things, the cursor shape, the cursor color. 40:45.61 Frank Yeah. 40:48.12 Frank yeah 40:48.60 James all of the transparency, all these things, padding, and then you can override those on every profile. So you can easily reset and do these things, which makes it really nice in general that have like, here's the color scheme. You can have these custom color themes. They're all really good, light and dark theme. 41:03.99 James But the thing that she showed me today was two things. One is when I'm inside my tabs, Here, I can, there's this dropdown to do new and you can customize that dropdown to the order, to the preference of like how all of your different profiles show up. 41:21.93 James Cause you might have a bunch of shells installed, but only want like one basically get a copilot or PowerShell and everyone use the other ones. 41:22.40 Frank Oh, okay. 41:28.47 James But I can have groupings and submenus that are customizable. So I can have like other shells and then it's a fly out of all these other things. Or here's my code shells, right? Or here's my code profiles for different projects. You can customize all of the keyboard command actions they are all highly customizable. 41:43.64 James But the thing that's really cool about this as well is that there are all these sort of advanced um options. So for example, if I have a terminal open with like six or seven different tabs with different profiles, like maybe I'm running PowerShell over here, I'm running just like.NET commands over here, I'm running like Copilot over here, and i'm running in boot over here. 42:04.60 James If I close the terminal and I reopen the terminal, it'll reinflate all of the tabs and all of the history of the tabs automatically for me, which is bananas. 42:11.74 Frank Yeah. 42:16.44 James But better yet, the thing that blew my mind, that helps me so much is that the windows terminal, it actually allows you in one, you can have multiple tabs, but inside of a tab, you can have multiple shells going, so you can have split views basically, right? 42:31.58 James You could have like eight of them all in one window, but it's always complicated. because i'm like what's the keyboard command? What's this hold down to hold down this button. 42:38.10 Frank right. 42:40.02 James No, no, no, even better. You have an option. It's off by default and it's going to piss off the the terminal people by default, but you can right click. Anywhere on the terminal, you can do a find, you can duplicate tab, you can split the pane easily into different ones, or of course you can paste. 42:55.93 Frank Yeah. 42:57.55 James I know that the click is supposed to be paste. There's even a paste icon there, but it allows you to split, boom, 43:00.58 Frank That's from command.exe, baby. Long live command.exe. 43:04.12 James You can easily, boom, just put it over there. It's just like, this is the most craziest, most amazing. 43:10.11 Frank Yeah. 43:10.12 James And the Windows Thermal is not new, right? But there's like a history size, there's bell notification. It's like so customizable. But then also it has a beautiful GUI to actually do these settings and the settings make sense and they're applied instantaneous. 43:25.82 James Right. So like, if you're making changes, it immediately applies those settings across all of your open um terminal windows. And it's just like, makes so much sense. It's like, so cool. I'm just like, dang, like, how come all the, how come all of aren't aren't this way? I don't know. 43:43.42 Frank Well, if that's kind of the joke that I want to bring up is like, I was trying to be funny in the beginning. I know I wasn't funny, but, um Windows never had a great terminal because it was a GUI thing. 43:55.69 Frank They wanted GUI apps in Windows. The terminal was old, shells were old, and they wanted to move away from that kind of DOS world. And so command.exe was a terminal and a shell all merged together into one crazy subsystem. 44:04.02 James Yeah. Mm-hmm. 44:09.94 Frank A terminal is just it a dumb terminal. It's just taking terminal codes. A binary byte stream, talk about MIDI, it's just as archaic as MIDI. And it's just rendering character glyphs at certain locations on the screen depending on certain command codes it gets over a serial protocol. 44:27.61 Frank So like back in the day, I used Putty because Putty was a much better terminal for Windows. 44:32.76 James okay 44:33.41 Frank But compared to the things you're describing now, it's funny how the Windows terminal, even though it's kind of It's old but new. It's relatively new, but it's old now because it's been around for a few years. 44:45.43 Frank But like they've outdone Unix. Unix is supposed to be the terminal shell world. Like I was mentioning TMux before. That's how you did split screen terminals or shells, technically, on Unix. 44:58.80 Frank All running over, it muxed multiple shells into one terminal session, blah, blah, blah, TMux. 44:59.47 James Yeah. 45:06.81 Frank And it's funny to see like Windows just outdoing Unix, basically. Like people make fun of the Mac terminal. I don't mind it. It has all the features i want. But it is funny to hear you go through all these features of Windows. I'm like, yeah, Apple really hasn't updated terminal since 1999, 2001, whenever os ten came out, i think. I mean, every so often there's a tiny little change in terminal, but certainly not the advancements Microsoft's making. So i I find that that's kind of the biggest joke is like terminals, the idea of terminals and the whole idea of like taking a serial protocol and then rendering it nicely and turning that into a development environment. That's a Unix thing. 45:47.16 Frank And it's funny to see like Windows out Unixing Unix in this case. It's it's just what a topsy tur turvy world we live in these days, James. 45:56.57 James And like everything's customizable backgrounds. You can have gifts, you can have like videos, you can have ah images, you can have like CRT scan lines. 46:01.12 Frank Yeah. 46:04.41 James You can have all these advanced like shader renderers on it. 46:07.06 Frank Yeah. 46:07.09 James Like it's every, everything's customizable. So when I opened the co-pilot profile, it has a custom icon, right? You can use asking, you know, or, um, um, emojis if you want to like it all just makes sense and then the cool part is you can hide stuff too so like i don't ever want to see certain things i just like hide it it's just like it makes so much sense they really thought about it and and they even have like terminal terminal emulation they have like all these other things it is wild 46:25.78 Frank yeah 46:33.34 Frank You have to, that's the problem there because it is just a serial protocol that they're rendering. 46:38.10 James mm-hmm yeah 46:39.03 Frank Everyone and their brother has invented their own terminal protocol. And so like if I, Frank Kruger wanted to write a terminal app today, it's real easy to get started. You take a binary text stream and you render it to the screen, no big deal. 46:52.64 Frank But then you find out all the different terminal standards that exist and trying to make all those work together. And it becomes quite maddening in fact. 46:58.58 James Yeah. Yeah. 46:59.96 Frank um Miguel, ding um he wrote a beautiful terminal app for the iOS. um I am completely blanking on its name right now, but um he has he he implemented the full terminal from scratch, which is quite an endeavor, and you really have to know that world to do it correctly. 47:19.82 Frank And he he managed to do it. It's quite an undertaking to build a new terminal these days. Building a new shell. Any idiot can build a shell. Yeah. Because that's just taking in commands and doing something with it, like a CLI. 47:32.50 Frank you know That's all a shell is. But implementing a terminal, you have to support roughly 50 years of computer history to implement a terminal these days. So that's cool. 47:41.81 James Yeah. It's crazy. Anyways, it's super good. 47:45.27 Frank Yeah. 47:46.01 James You know, I, when I am on my Mac, it is the, probably the number one application that actually miss because it is extremely good. 47:52.28 Frank Oh. 47:54.14 James Like, and I haven't found anything else, any other terminal. Cause you know, I just use PowerShell on my Mac inside of termin inside a terminal. 48:02.60 Frank That's fine, yeah. 48:03.90 James So I use PowerShell everywhere as my shell, which is great. 48:04.25 Frank Right. 48:06.81 Frank Right. 48:07.70 James But the terminal itself, 48:09.55 Frank Oh, OK. 48:10.63 James leaves a lot to be desired. You know, a good example is this, is I was at the GitHub Copilot Dev Days in Portland and it was one of my first in-person conferences, like doing a whole demo in the CLI, like in the terminal. 48:12.11 Frank Yeah. 48:24.02 Frank um okay Yeah. 48:24.95 James And you know what you need when you present on a not so great projector, light mode. And you know what is not very good at light mode? terminals like you really need to they love to be dark mode but built in to the windows terminals all these beautiful light theme terminal you know shells uh prompts and it just like boom it lit up it worked great and it was instantaneous and my poor friend christopher who is on a mac using the mac terminal he's like oh he couldn't do it i was like it's fine just like you know blow up the fonts big 48:52.09 Frank ah yeah 48:56.82 Frank oh For the record, the the Mac terminal always started out in light mode for decades. And it was one of my 49:04.02 James but trying to get it to change. I'm just saying it's like a pain in the butt. 49:06.88 Frank it's It is funny, the settings system for the back terminal is archaic and confusing. 49:12.34 James Oh my gosh, it's so crazy. 49:13.60 Frank I've been using that i have been using that terminal for many years now and I still get confused. I'm like, just turn up stupid color. 49:21.05 James i know, like, oh, change the phone. Do I gotta close it? 49:23.26 Frank They refuse. 49:23.73 James i gotta open it What do gotta do? 49:24.18 Frank that They're like in the backwards compatibility thing. They just refuse to change how settings work. 49:29.85 James One day, one day. All right, everyone. That's going to do it for this week's Merge Conflict. I'm going to eat some pizza. So until next week, I'm James Montemagno. 49:38.74 Frank And I'm Frank Kruger. Thanks for watching and listening. 49:42.52 James Peace.